I guess the difference between us was that you made the determination that "...always knew it defied logic.", whereas I had made no determination either way, except to acknowledge my lack of understanding.
I never looked outside of scripture at the time, until some folks would post this or that on the many sides on the subject. What was presented outside of scripture was never convincing, so I placed that data in an archive folder of my mind so to speak.
I don't see how one couldn't see that it defies logic. One being consists of three beings? It's illogical. I knew that but I bought into other erroneous teachings that allowed me to accept that idea.
That is not what I meant.
What I was trying to say, was you made your determination, "defied logic", and stopped, while I did not. I look to these 2 verses.
"For My thoughts [are] not your thoughts, Nor [are] your ways My ways," says the LORD. "For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:8-9 NKJV
"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3 NKJV
I however, was not looking to grab a hold from this writing or that (outside of Scripture) that would convince me of this or that. Unbeknownst to even myself, what I was waiting for was for the Holy Spirit to open my understanding.
"However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own [authority], but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. John 16:13 NKJV
The problem is His time, and when I want to know, is not the same! lol He's not a search engine, where you type in a question, ask, and immediately get a pop up with all the possibilities! lol
To be honest until again reading postings, I had never heard from the pulpit that if you didn't believe in the Trinity, you weren't saved.
Just read the Athanasian creed. It opens and closes with such a statement.
Why, when I told you I've never heard it preached from the Pulpit?
I mean do those who don't believe in a Trinity, have a creed by which they go by? If so, please share it, since I've never been told one existed. It's as if non-Trinitarians believe there is no way independent thought could come up with the belief on the Trinity. Which is not logical if you think about it.
Also, I didn't realize when I first came to Jesus, that I had to know it all in order to be saved! If I had, I'd have probably turned around and walked away, knowing my own limitations as I do! Unless you count the different denominations, I studied under but never took to heart.
Also, I don't necessarily associate the "vax that everyone was talking about recently" which I would assume is COVID, with being a vaccine in the first place. Being an old military fellow that has a shot or two in my twenty years, let me know with this prior knowledge that the questions asked, and answers given about it showed it was not what they advertised it as being (vaccine)! So, never got it. I don't usually say I'm one of those that goes along to get along kind of fellows.
I didn't get it either. Right before all of that happened, I had seen an article talking about how they had tried at least 10 times to make a vax for the Covid virus and all of them were abject failures. Now I'm supposed to believe they all of sudden got it right? Nah, sorry. I'm not buying that nonsense. However, my point about the vax is that they were trying to force it on everyone. It was kind of like that with this doctrine when the said if one doesn't believe it, they can't' be saved.
I see your point though I don't see the correlation as being the same. And as I explained, I was never introduced to the you must believe in the Trinity, or you're not saved doctrine.
Agreed, but who determines that reality, and how they come about that determination does. Your example of Luther just confirms what I am saying. As well as what the atheist who rejects God believes. You can reverse that "some reject certain books doesn't mean they aren't Scripture to them" nor those who accept all books as well. That is why faith comes into play and with that the Holy Spirit, because Godly men as well intentioned as they may be, are not always right.
I don't see any gray areas. I don't think people get to choose what is Scripture.
Agreed! Only God does. The problem is not everyone is listening. On average few people look to see the authencity of each book and with the increase of knowledge it actually gets worse and so the grey areas to those who come to the faith in Jesus Christ. At least in my eyes. When in doubt go back to the Cross, or to when you were drawn to come to Him.
Story time.
An example is Salvation can only be found in Jesus Christ is a life preserver and it gets tossed into the water. The Devil knows he can't do anything about that preserver, so what does he do? Well, he tosses in other life preservers, that look just like the only one that can save.
When push comes to shove, I love what Paul and Peter had to say.
For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 1 Corinthians 2:2 NKJV
and the Lord God sanctify in your hearts. And [be] ready always for defence to every one who is asking of you an account concerning the hope that [is] in you, with meekness and fear; 1 Peter 3:15 YLT
"However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own [authority], but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. John 16:13 NKJV
As I understand this passage Jesus said this to His disciples. It seems to me that this is not a universal statement but something specific to them. The evidence I would give to support that is modern Christianity. There's only one truth. I think if the Spirit was leading Christians into all truth, we'd all believe alike. However, we are far from that.
The days are getting darker. I think modern Christianity's problem has to do with a bit of the life preserver story I mentioned above.
As to the working of the Holy Spirit, I can only speak to what has happened in my own life and how the Holy Spirit has worked in and through me. Nothing miraculous to most, but awesome to me. Words of knowledge, understanding on Scripture. Taking over when witnessing to others. Also, hearing of His working in others as well. \o/
As far as truth....another story.
I recall many different folks of religions and denominations being asked if they could explain what truth is. Oh, everything from New Age, and on, gave their thoughts. The only one I remember is an artistic child in a wheelchair who said, "Truth is what you see when you look through the eyes of God.".
It reminds me of this story that precedes this verse comes from.
And when the prophet that brought him back from the way heard [thereof], he said, It [is] the man of God, who was disobedient unto the word of the LORD: therefore the LORD hath delivered him unto the lion, which hath torn him, and slain him, according to the word of the LORD, which he spake unto him. 1 Kings 13:26 KJV
I'm sure some wonder how I can communicate with those I don't necessarily agree with in scripture, and how I can agree to disagree with them too!
 Sadly, we too often behave as if Salvation is a group thing, though most in truth know it's an individual one.
"
For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward. Mark 9:41 NKJV
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I'm not sure what your point is here.
You have to be true to what God has given to you to do. You can't be what others want you or believe you ought to be.
Note: Though as a Moderator my actions are driven by the sites SOF & Terms of the site. If they ever become untenable to what I believe through the Holy Spirit to be true, I will then relinquish my duties as such.
Now if it is your calling, then in truth you can't do no other, but if it is not yours to begin with, then as it always is anyway, it's all in His good time. Again, how you came about your understanding is not the same as I did. Similar in certain aspects, but still different from what I can tell.
Now for differences and how you deal with it. You present, and again He will move them or not. The problem is that you as well as others can't abide the inability in another person to see what you believe is true.
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The problem is, they already believe He has moved them. That is one reason they are so adamant. Even when what they hold is refuted by Scripture. Paul warned the Galatians about receiving another gospel. I often wonder how far can we stray from the truth before we are believing another gospel? Someone who believes their doctrine is from God will be hard pressed to change their viewpoint.
Agree. All you can do as Paul did, was present, and then in this environment of communication, move on. You or I are not going to change anyone's belief that is intrenched. The only ones you can help, Lord willing, are those who are seeking. Send your prayers heavenward for them, and shower them with love brother.
Love never fails. But whether [there are] prophecies, they will fail; whether [there are] tongues, they will cease; whether [there is] knowledge, it will vanish away. 1 Corinthians 13:8 NKJV
That's why I asked you first what you believed as it pertains to Jesus! lol
That being said, it is more important to consider how you interpret the term "divine," whether it applies to Jesus or not, and if it does, how it does so, or if it does not, why that is the case. Therefore, your definition would be helpful in this context.
You already know what I believe, except for certain nuances, because I believe in the Trinity.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
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I just wanted a definition of the word, not how it applies to Christ. Here is the Oxford English Dictionary definition.
- 1.
Of or pertaining to God or a god.
- 2.
Given by or proceeding from God; having the sanction of or…
- 3.
Addressed, appropriated, or devoted to God; religious…
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4.
Partaking of the nature of God; characteristic of or…
Jesus said that He came out of God. That makes Him of like kind. According to Scripture kind begets kind. Thus, Jesus came out of God and was of the same essence or nature of God. Both John and Paul tell us that the Word, that came out of God, became flesh. The same life that came out of God, which was divine, put off the form of God and became flesh.
divine, adj. & n.¹ meanings, etymology and more | Oxford English Dictionary
I know and believe it would be better if you provided it. I have no problem with what you have provided the above. Which leaves the question of, where does Jesus fall into all that is defined therein?
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
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