Going to heaven is pagan theology right from Babel.

It is pushed by practically ever preacher, pastor or minister. But that does not make it correct.

The Bibel quite clearly says Jesus is coming back to rule Earth.

If it was your way the faith would change every two weeks when ever someone interrupts it differently. The faith is defined in the doctrine over a period of 2000 years by scholars and Church leaders highly educated in theology. The bible comes from the Church which is a collection of writings put together by the Church or you would have no bible.It did not fall from the sky.The doctrine is there to prevent some lone fool from coming and changing it all.

There was no bible before the 1500s the printing press had not been invented it was preached orally and a piece of scripture would make the rounds once and a while not a bible.Even after the printing press was invented it still took hundreds of years because only the rich could afford a bible.

Bible revisionist are free to do as they want and ignore Church teachings but you will never change the Church it why the doctrine is there to protect the Church or more correctly protect the faith.

Why did Jesus make the sacrifice or is that pagan belief too.Why do you find your salvation by having faith in the death and resurrection of Christ or is that pagan belief also.

Peter1 said:

If it was your way the faith would change every two weeks when ever someone interrupts it differently. The faith is defined in the doctrine over a period of 2000 years by scholars and Church leaders highly educated in theology. The bible comes from the Church which is a collection of writings put together by the Church or you would have no bible.It did not fall from the sky.The doctrine is there to prevent some lone fool from coming and changing it all.

There was no bible before the 1500s the printing press had not been invented it was preached orally and a piece of scripture would make the rounds once and a while not a bible.Even after the printing press was invented it still took hundreds of years because only the rich could afford a bible.

Bible revisionist are free to do as they want and ignore Church teachings but you will never change the Church it why the doctrine is there to protect the Church or more correctly protect the faith.

Why did Jesus make the sacrifice or is that pagan belief too.Why do you find your salvation by having faith in the death and resurrection of Christ or is that pagan belief also.

Click to expand...

You made no attempt to address the subject of the thread. However, you have a few points incorrect here. The early church put together the writings that are our Bible. They didn't need a printing press. Also, the faith is defined in the teachings of the Jesus and the apostles, not by theologians and scholars over 2000 years. It's those theologians and scholars over 2000 years that have perverted the faith. That's the whole point of this thread. Theologians and scholars have polluted the faith with the doctrines of men. It only takes a quick study of church history to see that. However, people will never see that as long as they continue to believe church doctrine over the Bible.

Ok if you say so.

Butch5 said:

I would like to have a serious discussion as to why Christians choose Church doctrine over the Scriptures. I've said may times that when Scripture runs up against Church doctrine, Church doctrine always wins. This should not be. The Scriptures should "ALWAYS" trump Church doctrine. So, I'd like to have a serious and honest conversation about this, and why it happens. We've discussed the Trinity doctrine so let's give that a break. Let's take the Heavenly Destiny doctrine. Christians claim that they go to Heaven when they die. That is stated "NOWHERE" in Scripture. On the contrary what is stated is Jesus telling the apostles that where He was going, they could not come. So, If Jesus explicitly told the disciples that they could not go to Heaven. Why do Christians believe and teach that people go to Heaven when they die?

Click to expand...

We have had three threads in the last month discussing this, why do you keep pushing this?

-----------------------------------

Church doctrine alone is an interesting topic. The Catholic church for example has refined and tested its beliefs for over the last 1,500 years. Baptists churches, for 400 years. Methodists, 200 years. Modern Pentecostal, 120 years.

People always debate. These beliefs that have existed for so long have survived scrutiny. God has given each of us working brains and five senses. As such to claim that church doctrine is nowhere in scripture, is very naive. Cultish beliefs where followers at large are sheep, don't usually last long.

Church doctrine today is a rather more complex topic as we are living in the last days. Almost anything goes. You can find a 'church' to attend even if you are actively homosexual or are removing the sexual parts of your seven year old child.

What you find when you interrogate the older more refined Christian 'church' doctrines is that they agree on the material matters and only really disagree on immaterial matters and perhaps certain practises. Like for example how a church meeting is run.
________________________________

As to your OP insinuation. ''Nobody goes to heaven because no scripture says they do''.

It is not in any well established church doctrines because it is a very silly theory.

1. It is illogical

Worse than a flat earth belief. A - Does the fact that today we have people flying to the moon, creating space stations there and planning to fly to mars go against scripture stating that God placed us on earth? B - We have managed to fly to the moon in 6k years alive, imagine what we could achieve in a centillion years. If anything we should be more restricted right now being in a sinful state. C - Imagine a husband telling His wife that she is not allowed in his house after their honeymoon. Christians are the bride of Christ.

2. It is evil as it stumbles young believers

Telling young Christians that they must give their lives 100% to Jesus and then telling them that that is still not enough for them to be welcomed into His home.

3. It is most certainly not what scripture teaches

A. 2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Where does God live? A - Shanghai? B - New York? C- Heaven?

B. Rev 6:9-11 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

The altar mentioned in verse 9 is in heaven. Here is a link explaining this - The Altar in Revelation (see paragraph 4).

C. Phil 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

What does citizenship mean? A - Illegal alien with no passport, B - resident with a passport who can come and go as they please?

D. 1 Thess 4:16-17 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

The Lord comes down from heaven, and He says we will be with Him forever, when He raptures us. Does that mean we are taken with Him at the moment to: A - Mars, B - Pluto or C - Heaven?

-----------------------------------

The more one interrogates this belief, the more you find it is part and parcel of two other heresies. 1. No trinity and 2. Annihilationism.

Jesus is not God, so He cannot take you to heaven. Right?

-------------------------------

Extremely illogical, irrational but at least cute dance performance around scripture incoming, need to get my popcorn!

KingJ said:

Extremely illogical, irrational but at lease cute dance performance around scripture incoming, need to get my popcorn!

Click to expand...

Once again you prove you prefer Satan's lies over Bible truth.
By all means eat popcorn like the child you are.

Peter1 said:

Why did Jesus make the sacrifice or is that pagan belief too.Why do you find your salvation by having faith in the death and resurrection of Christ or is that pagan belief also.

Click to expand...

Any BIble includes this verse: Luke 4: 16-30. 'Jesus came to Nazara, where he had been brought up, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day as he usually did. He stood up to read and they handed him the scroll of the prophet Isaiah.'

From almost 80 years ago the Dead Sea Scrolls have been found and translated but many have been kept secret because they contradict lots of pagan teachings of the Jews and western churches.

Here: educate yourself: List of the Dead Sea Scrolls - Wikipedia

Rxlx said:

Once again you prove you prefer Satan's lies over Bible truth.

Click to expand...

I find this accusation interesting. Please enlighten me. I have provided a rational and sound reason for satan wanting to push your belief. What would be his reason for wanting to push the alternative?

All should choose the Living Church above the "Scriptural Word". Jesus was the Word on the Living Church. And in 3 days the Real Living Church was Created. Which is you. In the Word of Jesus 12 Churches were prepared. And on Pentecost the entered Being the Real Living Churches. Because Jesus was not a "Real Living Church". He was the Word on the Creation of the Living Churches. And the 12 Living Churches went and did the same.

Without a Living Church speaking the Word it stays "dead scripture". That is why anyone who wants to Minister needs to be Anointed to do it. And when there are Living Churches there is not need for "scriptural word". Because a Living Church is God's Temple from where He speaks Himself.

2 Cor. 3:
1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Please stay on topic. The topic is not about people going to Heaven. The topic is why people believe church doctrine rather than stated Scripture.

Butch5 said:

I would like to have a serious discussion as to why Christians choose Church doctrine over the Scriptures. I've said may times that when Scripture runs up against Church doctrine, Church doctrine always wins. This should not be. The Scriptures should "ALWAYS" trump Church doctrine. So, I'd like to have a serious and honest conversation about this, and why it happens. We've discussed the Trinity doctrine so let's give that a break. Let's take the Heavenly Destiny doctrine. Christians claim that they go to Heaven when they die. That is stated "NOWHERE" in Scripture. On the contrary what is stated is Jesus telling the apostles that where He was going, they could not come. So, If Jesus explicitly told the disciples that they could not go to Heaven. Why do Christians believe and teach that people go to Heaven when they die?

Click to expand...

I would offer to look at the confederacy. . an oral tradition the doctrine dying mankind.

They would be of those who compare themselves to their own selves (2 Corinthians 10:12) and not comparing themself to sola scriptura their first love "hearing the voice of eternal God not seen" Christ giving the power to do it according to His good pleasure

2 Corinthians 10:12For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

Men puffing themselves up above all things written in the law and prophet (sola scriptura> found in 1st Corinthians 4::6-7

The confederacy trust what your eyes see and not the invisible Christ' labor of love or called a work of His faithfulness the temporal historical avoid the unseen things of .Christ

Revelation 2:2-6 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love (.Hearing God believing God) Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works;(.Hearing God believing God) or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.;But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes,(confedercy) which I also hate.

Nicodemus acting as a Pope or called a Dayman. . . a fleshly infallible interpreter. . the confederacy.

Not the union organizer of the gospel as it is wriiten (sola scriptura)

Isaiah 8:12Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.

Obadiah 1:7 All the men of thy confederacy have brought thee even to the border: the men that were at peace with thee have deceived thee, and prevailed against thee; they that eat thy bread have laid a wound under thee: there is none understanding in him (Christ in us)

Butch5 said:

Please stay on topic. The topic is not about people going to Heaven. The topic is why people believe church doctrine rather than stated Scripture.

Click to expand...

Well you posted going to heaven as your example.

You could not have picked a better example for a case study to be honest. It shows how a crazy belief can come from outliers who form doctrines off of half truths from cherry picked scriptures.

KingJ said:

Well you posted going to heaven as your example.

You could not have picked a better example for a case study to be honest. It shows how a crazy belief can come from outliers who form doctrines off of half truths from cherry picked scriptures.

Click to expand...

Go lie down in a dark room.

Butch5 said:

I would like to have a serious discussion as to why Christians choose Church doctrine over the Scriptures. I've said may times that when Scripture runs up against Church doctrine, Church doctrine always wins. This should not be. The Scriptures should "ALWAYS" trump Church doctrine. So, I'd like to have a serious and honest conversation about this, and why it happens. We've discussed the Trinity doctrine so let's give that a break. Let's take the Heavenly Destiny doctrine. Christians claim that they go to Heaven when they die. That is stated "NOWHERE" in Scripture. On the contrary what is stated is Jesus telling the apostles that where He was going, they could not come. So, If Jesus explicitly told the disciples that they could not go to Heaven. Why do Christians believe and teach that people go to Heaven when they die?

Click to expand...

Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingdom.” He replied, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
Luk 23:42-43 NRSVue

I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows. And I know that such a person—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows— was caught up into paradise and heard things that are not to be told, that no mortal is permitted to repeat.
2Co 12:2-4 NRSVue

The apostle Paul, not baseless Church doctrine, indicates that paradise and heaven are synonymous. Jesus assured the one beside him on the cross, that he would be that very day with him in paradise.

For we know that, if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens...So we are always confident, even though we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord— for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we do have confidence, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
2Co 5:1, 6-8 NRSVue

The thief could not have been taken to heaven as Jesus said no one has ascended but himself.
Jesus himself went into his tombfro three days.
That thief is still in his grave waiting for Judgment Day.

Garee said:

I would offer to look at the confederacy. . an oral tradition the doctrine dying mankind.

They would be of those who compare themselves to their own selves (2 Corinthians 10:12) and not comparing themself to sola scriptura their first love "hearing the voice of eternal God not seen" Christ giving the power to do it according to His good pleasure

2 Corinthians 10:12For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

Men puffing themselves up above all things written in the law and prophet (sola scriptura> found in 1st Corinthians 4::6-7

The confederacy trust what your eyes see and not the invisible Christ' labor of love or called a work of His faithfulness the temporal historical avoid the unseen things of .Christ

Revelation 2:2-6 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love (.Hearing God believing God) Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works;(.Hearing God believing God) or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.;But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes,(confedercy) which I also hate.

Nicodemus acting as a Pope or called a Dayman. . . a fleshly infallible interpreter. . the confederacy.

Not the union organizer of the gospel as it is wriiten (sola scriptura)

Isaiah 8:12Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.

Obadiah 1:7 All the men of thy confederacy have brought thee even to the border: the men that were at peace with thee have deceived thee, and prevailed against thee; they that eat thy bread have laid a wound under thee: there is none understanding in him (Christ in us)

Click to expand...

I'm trying to figure out why they do it.

Dylan569 said:

Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingdom.” He replied, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
Luk 23:42-43 NRSVue

I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows. And I know that such a person—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows— was caught up into paradise and heard things that are not to be told, that no mortal is permitted to repeat.
2Co 12:2-4 NRSVue

The apostle Paul, not baseless Church doctrine, indicates that paradise and heaven are synonymous. Jesus assured the one beside him on the cross, that he would be that very day with him in paradise.

For we know that, if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens...So we are always confident, even though we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord— for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we do have confidence, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
2Co 5:1, 6-8 NRSVue

Click to expand...

Hi Dylan. In your other post you spoke of not forming doctrine on that which was not explicitly stated, but you're doing that here. My point in the original post was to this point. Jesus stated plainly that neither the Jews nor the Disciples could go where He was going. That's stated out right. What that indicates then is that these two passages you're posted have been misunderstood. Neither of them suggests that people go to heaven when they are understood properly. If they did suggest such a thing the passages would contradict what Jesus said.

This is to the point of the thread. No matter how one understands these two passages, Jesus said the Jew and the Disciples could not go where He was going. My point is, why do we try to counter Scripture with other passages of Scripture. Jesus said they could not go. That should end the issue right there and prove the Heavenly Destiny doctrine is not Biblical. However, people will invariably grab passages of Scripture they think proves otherwise and try to counter the passage where Jesus said they could not go. The purpose of this thread is to figure out why people do this.

On a side note, if you'd like, I can give another explanation of these passages that doesn't contradict what Jesus said.

Butch5 said:

I'm trying to figure out why they do it.

Click to expand...

I would think they do not use the mixing prescription needed to interpret, rightly divide the parables .which without Christ spoke not a word .Their focus is on what the eyes see the temporal historical.

The foundation of Paganism natural unconverted mankind .Out of sight out of mind. God calls fools

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Not mixing the temporal historical with the unseen eternal no gospel rest. The parable remains a mystery

Hebrews 4Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.;For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith (the power of Christ) in them that heard it.

2 Corinthians 4:18 should be the mixing standard for any Bible study

Butch5’s presence on this message board serves only to stir up strife and divert attention from the clear truths of Scripture. No matter how patiently or thoroughly the truth is explained, it becomes evident that their heart is hardened and their eyes are spiritually blind to the Word of God. As Jesus warned, “Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit” (Matthew 15:14), and again, “Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit?” (Luke 6:39). Engaging with the falsehoods repeatedly shared by Butch5 is not only fruitless but also distracts from proclaiming the truth of the gospel. These distortions are not from God, for Satan is the father of lies (John 8:44), and it is clear where such deception originates. Let us stay grounded in the truth of God’s Word and not be drawn away by those who reject it.