A Rapture Question

[AngelaP]

How can you believe the whole church is raptured before the Tribulation when not all Christians have

(a) "kept the word of my patience" (Rev. 3.10),

(b) "watch at all times, praying" (Luke 21.36), and

(c) "watch therefore" (Matt. 24.42)

to

(i) "keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world" (Rev. 3.10),

(ii) "that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass", and

(iii) "stand before the Son of man" (Luke 21.36) and "stood before the throne, and before the Lamb" (Rev. 7.9),

"for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come" (Matt. 24.42)?

 

[Christy74]

When we talk of the church being raptured, we're talking about the true believers that have been keeping the word, watching, can be accounted worthy. Not all that go to church are true believers.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matt 7:21-23 (KJV)

 

[AngelaP]

Here is the problem with your argument.

These verses are saying those who are watchful are raptured first, so how can those who are unsaved be watchful so as to save themselves, for does that not deny God's grace of the free gift of salvation?

And Matt. 7.21-23 is speaking of the reign of the kingdom of heaven, that some believers will enter (5 wise virgins), some will not (5 unwise virgins) though still saved (for they are all still virgins and have oil in their lamps, Matt. 25.1-12). Would a non-believer call Jesus His Lord? I don't think so.

You get into the problem of antinomianism, whereby you can be as slothful as you like and still assume you will be raptured before the Tribulation which does damage to your conscience. I would rather you pass through the time of testing because you have yet some things to be dealt with in your life causing you not to be received yet.

 

[Christy74]

As far as the watching argument, we're all to be watching as believers now, pre-Rapture. I'm sure you'll agree, the rapture hasn't happened yet, even if it is pre-trib. I'm unclear as to how this denies God's gift of grace in salvation, since Jesus wasn't telling unbelievers to watch. Help me understand what your position is there.

I've never heard that take on the virgins, that "virgin" indicates believer. My understanding
is that the virgins were foolish and unprepared, indicating to me the unbeliever (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Psalms 14:1 KJV), unprepared to meet the Lord. I'll consider what you've said there.

As far as antinomianism, I believe that if someone thinks they're saved and thinks that
they can still sin like the devil, it's very likely that they're not saved.
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Romans 6:15-16 (KJV)
If you think that because you're under grace you can sin anytime you want, that has nothing to do with your stance on rapture and everything to do with abuse of grace.
Understand, I don't know everything. I'm not gonna be disappointed if Christ tarries until after the tribulation, but I'll be glad to see Him anytime He comes.

 

[AngelaP]

If Jesus is telling unbelievers to watch how does that save them, for to watch is a salvation by works? Philadelphia is the church, not unbelievers. Jesus tells the church (all those who are saved) to watch because some shall to be raptured before the Tribulation, while other believers will not be ready. A thief comes to steal the best first-the advanced party. There are harbingers in every sphere of life. Why not here?

How can any of the 10 virgins be unsaved, for they all have oil of the Holy Spirit in their lamps that does not go out because we whom are saved have eternal life? Do the unsaved have the Holy Spirit?

The 10 virgins are all treated as one body. They all go forth to meet the bridegroom. Do the unsaved go to meet the bridegroom?

“Then all those virgins arose” (v.7). It refers to but one resurrection common to all ten. The difference between the five wise and five foolish virgins lies in their conduct, not in their nature.

These five foolish are virgins from the beginning to the end (v.11).

“Watch therefore,” says the Lord (v.13). To be watchful requires life. If the five foolish are not saved, they cannot be exhorted to watch but must be urged to repent.

I can name you about three dozen more reasons which you may be interested in, but if you don't accept these reasons, why would you accept many more reasons?

Rom. 6.15-16 does not say a believer can not be carnal or may not still sin with many things yet to overcome in life. Therefore, such a believer would be unready to be received before the time of testing; just as Enoch was taken, Noah went through the flood. Both the taken and left are saved. Elijah was taken, Elisha was left to go through.

All Christians are against sin, so it is not a matter of you saying sin is wrong, for all believers say sin is wrong, but that you may still be walking as though you are unsaved even though you have eternal life. Does a babe in Christ all of a sudden become perfect in everything she does? No. A Christian if he wishes can get to 90 years of age and still be very fleshly if he did not allow the Holy Spirit work in him by the cross.

Jesus is not going to tarry after the Tribulation because He returns at the end of the Tribulation. What He will do is not receive those to Him before the Tribulation starts who are not yet ready to be received (though having eternal life), so you will have to pass through the Tribulation because you assume you would be raptured beforehand irregardless of your spiritual state. Obviously further testing is what you will need to undergo. I do not even know if you are saved by your beliefs.

Here is the real problem. You assume you will be raptured before the Tribulation, so when that rapture takes place and you are not received you will blame those who went before, and who knows what you will do then since you don't even recognize the Tribulation as happening, since you assumed if it was the Tribulation, you would have been raptured.

Do you see how your beliefs lower your conscience, it is antinomian and one cannot be confident you are saved. You are not alone in those who will be deceived, even now. Many suffer your same beliefs.

 

[Ed Edwards]

...
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Romans 6:15-16 (KJV)

If you think that because you're under grace you can sin anytime you want, that has nothing to do with your stance on rapture and everything to do with abuse of grace.
...

Amen, Sister Christy74 -- You are so RIGHT ON!

 

[AngelaP]

Read the response.

 

[Faithful Son]

Sister Angela, I'm just a bystander, but it seems you are very hostile regarding this topic, which is not the Christian manner.

I'll read the thread and comment once I have, but please try to be more Christlike.

Edit:

I've read it. Some issues to be taken up. You think a persons Christian life is threatened in some way if they believe in the pre-tribulation? That's a mistake and extremely judgemental.

A Christian is a person who believes and professes faith in Jesus, therefore they walk as Jesus did, because He is the "Author" and "Finisher" of our faith. Most people misunderstand this and think they have faith by themselves, but it is a gift from God.

We have to accept, that some people long for Christ's return and therefore it is much easier to believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. Not because they are antinomian, because calling a fellow believer antinomian is judging them and all judgement belongs to God, not us.

 

[Ed Edwards]

The Rapture/Tribulation connect

AngelaP:

Here is the real problem. You assume you will be raptured before the Tribulation, so when that rapture takes place and you are not received you will blame those who went before, and who knows what you will do then since you don't even recognize the Tribulation as happening, since you assumed if it was the Tribulation, you would have been raptured.

Only lost people would assume this.
No person saved by the Blood of Jesus would
teach counter to the very Gospel of
Yeshua, the Messiah.
Such assumptions counter the Doctrines
of the very Nature of God.
God is Sovereign: God does what God wants,
using people whom God chooses, to do God's
Will, when God wants to, for God's purposes,
where God wants, etc.

Joh 16:33 (KJV1611 Edition):
These things I haue spoken vnto you,
that in me ye might haue peace, in the world
ye shall haue tribulation: but be of good cheare,
I haue ouercome the world.

Here is my essay from the early 1990s about
Tribulation:

---------------------------------
The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, affliction, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointments,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity, torture
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's expulsion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, atheists, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millennial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, atheists, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
(AKA: Wrath of the Lamb /Revelation 6:17/ )
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Note that #1, #2, and #3 are measured in travail units;
#4 and #5 are measured in time units.

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompense in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:
---------------------------------

 

[AngelaP]

Faithful Son,

I don't know why you call me hostile, for I don't feel hostile, but helpful. Maybe you think I am hostile because what I said shows something wrong with your beliefs. I can understand that is why you are hostile. Understand though that is not Christlike of you.

Where did I say a person's life is threatened in some way for believing the whole church is raptured before the Tribulation? A Christian cannot lose eternal life, though they can lose the reward of reigning in the 1000 years; and it is possible a person may not be saved who believes the whole church is raptured before the Tribulation, for when they get into the Tribulation they will blame those first raptured and will deny the Tribulation because they assumed if it was the Tribulation they would have been raptured.

One can make the argument if you believe the whole church is raptured before the Tribulation you have faith in yourself and not have the gift is from God because you are telling God there is nothing He can do that you will be raptured no matter how carnal you are before the Tribulation. I really don't think a person with that attitude would be ready to received before the Tribulation. So shall you go through the time of testing that is to come upon the whole world, because God said only if you keep the word of his patience, are watchful and prayerful will you be kept from the hour of trial of the Trib.

We have to accept that some people fulfill His condition and wait at the door to prevent the thief to come in, so it is much easier to believe the rapture before the Tribulation is for keeping the word of His patience, which not all Christians do.Whether you are judged for your antinomianism or not does not change the fact it is antinomian for claiming no matter how fleshly you are you will still be raptured before the Tribulation. I won't buy that line, nor should you. I won't accept that for me nor you, because God is righteous, holy and true. Amen.

 

[AngelaP]

Ed,
You think only lost people would think no matter how fleshly they are will NOT be raptured before the Tribulation? It would seem the opposite is true.

So isn't this counter to the gospel of Jesus, for Jesus holds believers accountable and He is sovereign, so you can't demand of him you will be raptured before the Tribulation no matter how carnal you choose to be?

There are various references to tribulation in the Bible, that the church will go through in the dispensation of grace, tribulations Israel will undergo, but we are only talking about the Tribulation of the last week of Daniel's seven here in which Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36 and Matt. 24.42 tell us to be received before the Tribulation to the throne (Rev. 7.) before the 7 trumpets of the Tribulation (ch.8ff), you would need to keep the word of His patience, be watchful and prayerful to be accounted worthy, which not all Christians do.

Let us preserve God's Word not according to the flesh.

 

[Chad]

Your motives Angela make no sense. You started this thread with nothing but questions, then you argue with the responses? This is illogical, or at least the motive is wrong. You joined the site and shot to this thread you started without even having the decency to at least introduce yourself in the new member forum.

The Rapture if for believers only. The unbelievers have had their chance just like the believers. So how on earth is this denying the grace of GOD? If a person is not a true repentant follower, they are not true Christians, therefore not part of the body of Christ (the Church).

Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven Matthew 7:21
​

Read this:

http://www.talkjesus.com/evidence-p...pretribulation-rapture.html?highlight=rapture
http://www.talkjesus.com/evidence-prophecy-facts/8701-rapture.html
http://www.talkjesus.com/evidence-p...illments-bible-prophecy-required-end-age.html

 

[Ed Edwards]

AngelaP: //You think only lost people would think no matter
how fleshly they are will NOT be raptured
before the Tribulation?

No, I think exactly the opposite:

only lost people would think no matter
how fleshly they are will [omit: NOT] be raptured
before the Tribulation?
Saved people, who have been saved by
Messiah Yeshua will know that they have to
obey the commandments of God and the commandments
of Yeshua, the Messiah, in honor and respect for
what Jesus has done for them.
God sent His only begotten Son: Jesus, to
be the Messiah, Christ, Chosen one, Lamb of God,
the Perfect Sacrifice -- just to bail us out of Hell.
I think it is more than that - He saved us to proclaim
the Gospel of Messiah.

AngelaP: // It would seem the opposite is true.//

Amen, Sister AngelaP -- you are so RIGHT ON!

 

[Ed Edwards]

AngelaP: // ... you can't demand of him you will be raptured
before the Tribulation no matter how carnal you choose to be.//

A formating note: people today show honor & respect
to the Holy Trinity: God the Father, God the Son, and
God the Holy Spirit; by using capital letters in the
pronouns which denote them. I've even seen some so
humble that they call themselves 'i' instead of 'I'.
So say: Jesus, He is Lord; ed he is fortunate if
he gets to make a door stop in the 3ed Heaven.

I make no such demand upon God, as you said:
I can't demand of Him. However, God is going to
rapture out a group of Christians (born-again, mostlly
Gentiles, elect saints of the Church Age) someday
so He can save a huge number of Jewish Israeli
elect saints of the. The Tribulation period is when
this will happen, Church Age Saints would just
be in the way

 

[AngelaP]

My question has turned into conviction because of your being unable to answer it, so that leaves one to be convinced in the condition for the first rapture.

I don't think those in the church are in the way in the Tribulation since many shall be martyred therein as a testimony (see the 5th seal and Rev. 20.4). Obviously God is allowing this martyrdom for a reason.The question is not if the saints will be raptured but when, since Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36 and Matt. 24.42 say only may you escape the hour of trial, these things that shall come upon the whole world, and accounted worthy if you keep the word of His patience, are prayerful and watchful.

To deny this is certainly to not be ready and to pass through the Tribulation. But for those who are really deceived who can say they are even saved, because they will blame those at the first rapture and assume that if it was the Tribulation they would have been raptured. How can they even recognize the Tribulation if they deny it when it is happening?

Even though all believers follow Christ, not all Christians fulfill the condition set forth in these verses, many still have much to overcome, so to think otherwise is not know what it is grow in Christ, for you do not start out sinless, but have things to be delivered from by the power of the Holy Spirit through the cross, bearing your cross daily.

 

[Chad]

My question has turned into conviction because of your being unable to answer it, so that leaves one to be convinced in the condition for the first rapture.

You must be full of joy and evil pride because the only conviction I got here was to ban you from this site. This is on behalf of everyone else when I say your ungodly and distasteful arrogant tone is not welcomed here. I have answered your question and gave you 3 links that had the answers to your childish tactics of asking questions, just to spit back at others.

Goodbye, good riddance to your nastiness. I am "convicted" that I made a delightful move banning you.

For everyone else, read the links I posted. They are really helpful.

 

[Ed Edwards]

I use the following definitions below:

pretrib -- a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church
post-trib -- post-tribulation ONLY rapture of the Chruch
OSAS -- once saved, always saved; aka: Salvation Security
non-OSAS -- once saved you might loose salvation,
--- or -- once saved you might revoke your salvation

I'm pretrib & OSAS.
I 'visit' a lot with post-trib folk who are non-OSAS.

It seems to me there are more pretrib/OSAS folks
OR post-trib/non-OSAS folks
then there are
pretrib/non-OSAS or post-trib/OSAS.

Maybe it is just me?

 

[Eleazar]

Umm...

I tried reading through this entire thread, but it seems that some people enjoy verbosity. Especially complicated theophilostic verbosity.

I know what Daniel, Matthew and Revelation says about the rapture, but unfortunately I also know that the messages in Revelation are extremely abstract, and can actually fit just about any triumph of good over corrupting evil.

And on top of that, it's written in the style of a 'letter of hope', and was written to the persecuted Christians of that era. Maybe the author (think it was John, not entirely sure of the name) just wanted to encourage and boost those Christians?

The Mark, for example, was a daily reality to them - the mark of the current Caesar was necessary for trade, and for acquiring the basic necessities of life. And I'm sure that there were prominent figures of Roman government that, at that time, could be related to the Beast, False Prophet, etc etc.

I mean, the compiling authorities almost dropped Revelation from the bible. So isn't it possible that we're putting way too much focus into it?

Do we have any evidence that the revelation time is now? And what evidence is there for the so-called 'rapture', where all believers (or whatever) disappear suddenly?

Or could it be that we're simply picking up a message meant for an earlier time, trying to make it fit into current history (which always repeats itself), and scaring ourselves silly?

~ Eleazar

 

[faithworks]

Well i do not believe in the pre-trib rapture, bu i do not argue about it. i believe we will all be rapture at sometime. But i also believe we will go through some tribulation, that is just my two cents. it is all about who we say JESUS IS!!!
i always say keep your lamps full and be about the FATHER"S business at all times.

debbi

 

[Buddy2]

There will be a calling up (rapture) of the church (true believers).
Various opinions abound on when that will be, pertaining to the tribulation period.
It doesn't really matter to me... when, just that it is!

Though not all churchgoers or other styles of believers will be called.

Not all who cry Lord, Lord are true believers (born again in Christ).

IMHO :rose: