a traitor in the camp

[mackem lady]

How would you deal with a situation where you know theirs a tr aitor in the camp.
Someone subtley teacing a different gospel.
Somebody quite high up with access to the leaders in the church.

Quite fearfully on the part of the whistleblower they are reported to the leaders that be.
They state the person is a respectful valued longterm member of the churchn and so long as the 'other gospel' isnot overtly. Preached, then what's the problem.l
How should this be dealt with.

I am seiing this happening and people being decieved.

Should I just leave?

 

[Strypes]

How would you deal with a situation where you know theirs a tr aitor in the camp.
Someone subtley teacing a different gospel.
Somebody quite high up with access to the leaders in the church.

Quite fearfully on the part of the whistleblower they are reported to the leaders that be.
They state the person is a respectful valued longterm member of the churchn and so long as the 'other gospel' isnot overtly. Preached, then what's the problem.l
How should this be dealt with.

I am seiing this happening and people being decieved.

Should I just leave?

Matthew 18:15 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector

Second Peter addresses false prophets in the church and they will be judged by God. Find a church home that preaches the Gospel of truth.

 

[Boanerges]

\Speak the truth in Love, but caution is advised:
Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

 

[B-A-C]

I am seiing this happening and people being decieved.

Jude 1:4; For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Matt; 18:15; "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
Matt; 18:16; "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
Matt; 18:17; "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

1 Cor 5:11; But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
1 Cor 5:12; For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
1 Cor 5:13; But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

If you tell the church, and they take his side instead of yours, then it's time to find another church.

Matt 24:11; "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.

 

[spirit1st]

That easy ? Just turn it over too the Lord and ask Him to reveal the truth !
then Do Nothing !
Our problem is WE want to fix things ! Not allow him too do it all !

 

[mackem lady]

Than you for your replies. It may come to me leaving I think.
I believe if the pastor won't hear me then I have no choice.

 

[Rev T.S.Perkins]

Ask God to one show you the answer and two to reveal any false doctrines to the leaders of flock as to the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ..dont just run because we find fault.. we will never find the perfect church until Christs return..dig in and pray for the leaders of the church until correction comes or God tells you to leave ...Rev

 

[lawrenceb]

Amen, Rev T.S.Perkins.

 

[mackem lady]

Ask God to one show you the answer and two to reveal any false doctrines to the leaders of flock as to the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ..dont just run because we find fault.. we will never find the perfect church until Christs return..dig in and pray for the leaders of the church until correction comes or God tells you to leave ...Rev

Thanx so much rev.
I have told the higher ranks but they don't seem interested.
So prauyer is a much more powerful thing to do.

Thanks again

 

[Eddy Fire]

having eyes they see not
having ears they hear not

some turn their eyes away preferring the gaze of men (or women)
some shut their ears preferring the sweet sound of deceit

One thing is needful, so don't be a Martha all the time. You have spoken. Now let the Lord speak through another or perhaps through a few.
Sit at the Master's feet and learn of Him. Delight yourself in His love.
Find the fellowship that is in your camp and with prayer and a pure heart towards all, without taking revenge or even watching the ones who offend, encourage others and be encouraged.

You have love and support in Christ through those who He has allotted to you where you are and you also have been shown something that is wrong.

As you learn of him who loves even you you can show grace and kindness to those who much need it.


Please do not be too quick to depart and I pray that you are not rebuked any longer for what you have said and what you have pointed out is true and many others know that and yet most are too timid to speak out as you have while some do offer a gentle hand to help you from falling through all this trial

it is a blessedness that too many run from and you have before you an opportunity that will reveal to you and in you and through you more of His abundant mercy love care and grace

I pray that you will be silent enough to hear and be reassured that the Lord has heard your cries
I pray that the offenders will not have their way in squashing you
I pray that the you will not weary down the person who can decide against you in all this but that that man will open and hear and hive top you the proper hearing that your boldness and persistence deserves. this man knows who he is as do those who you are referring to that are doing wrong
I pray that the offenders will have courage enough and humility to admit and ask forgiveness and show true repentance and lasting fruit of such convictions

I pray that others here and elsewhere will support you as they know what you are saying to be true and needful


in church organizations/ institutions/ communities/ assemblies/ congregations
there is usually a written or unwritten code of ethics that would require that the more senior members and those in a position of leadership as pastors, administrators, moderators, deacons, bishops etc be held more accountable and more culpable as they are given a responsibility to uphold the credibility of the community and of the Gospel
and likewise that the example set should be more steadfast in integrity and honesty and truth
in kindness patience and humility
in gentleness long-suffering and love
and that their words whether spoken or written should reflect the whole of the ethics and standards that the community claims to stand for and that above all things be examples of the Gospel
not lowering their standard or the communities for personal gratification
not ignoring justice and fairness nor accountability
not backbiting nor slandering
not mockers nor bullies
not taking sides with others and not separating themselves from the unity that the community holds dear in order to air their own opinions above others or to others demise
not insulters but able to be insulted offering wisdom and a gentle answer for any and all

and if they can not perform for any reason these simple acts of faithfulness to the Lord and the community they serve
they should be courageous enough to step down for a season until they are healed or restored to the fuller grace
and if they refuse correction are the manner of the Biblical format
they must be suspended and or disqualified in partaking of any position of service
and if they insist on continuing in offending the community and its members and the Gospel, they must be expelled from the fellowship


Do all things to the Glory of the Lord and in love
pray for those who are in charge as they often are in difficult positions and need wisdom and courage to deal effectively and fairly and responsibly with a multitude of problems big and small and often complex and in need of a level of sensitivity and longsighted care and can often also have troubles enough every day in their own lives
and while members may be disturbed about other members of their church or community a person or persons in a position to deal effectively with matters of concern must follow what they believe to be the directions they have from the Lord
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose. Romans 8:28

at this point I confess that I have failed to act according to everything I have written here and acknowledge my need for correction and encouragement as I have resorted to acting and responding from my flesh and not always waiting in prayer before the Lord

He must always come first

 

[Rev T.S.Perkins]

I've seen it before and said it before ,pride is the down fall of most ministers .. They refuse to hear a Godly word ( presented in a Godly way ) and bull up or refuse to consider if they have become a stumbling block to those in the flock.thats why a minister should always apply the word to ourselves first before we step in to Gods Holy light..If I may
let me remind you of the parable of the Tares and wheat. If you rip the weeds out by the roots then you disturb the whole field of wheat,,,,they wil be seperated on the day of harvest by the masters hand I assure you ! So again I say pray ! It's our strongest defence against a watered down word ..if you must go to a new place of worship make sure it's when God tells you to ,Follow the Spirit of The Lord you won't go wrong...in love Rev

 

[mackem lady]

I've seen it before and said it before ,pride is the down fall of most ministers .. They refuse to hear a Godly word ( presented in a Godly way ) and bull up or refuse to consider if they have become a stumbling block to those in the flock.thats why a minister should always apply the word to ourselves first
before we step in to Gods Holy light..If I may
let me remind you of the parable of the Tares and wheat. If you rip the weeds out by the roots then you disturb the whole field of wheat,,,,they wil be seperated on the day of harvest by the masters hand I assure you ! So again I say pray ! It's our strongest defence against a watered down word ..if you must go to a new place of worship make sure it's when God tells you to ,Follow the Spirit of The Lord you won't go wrong...in love Rev

Thanx so much @Rev T.S.Perkins and @Eddy Fire

You words are very helpful to me.

It feels like I'm under condemnation if I try to say anything. I infact got warned that ikd be excommunicated if I made too much more noise.

Be good Be quiet or else

But I must just pray and commit things to God.

If I get clear indicatoin I will certainly leave.

The sad thing is the fact I'm only tryin to make a stand for Jesus and the church leader is too weak or scared to make that stand. I don't know why.

 

[lawrenceb]

The sad thing is the fact I'm only tryin to make a stand for Jesus and the church leader is too weak or scared to make that stand. I don't know why.

Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation....Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death. (John 11:47, 48, 53).

 

[Fragrant Grace]

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly
Colossians 3:16

Greetings Mackem Lady

You have been given some very good advice here. Do take it on board and consider your actions with much prayer.
Dont become self righteous or overly argumentative no matter how wrong others may appear to be

If the leadership acknowledges this false gospel is being preached and decides to turn a blind eye and takes no action this would be very wrong as it is allowing the people to be deceived. (No matter how subtly it is being taught)

If they are threatening you with ex-communication......

Keep standing up for Jesus and His one and only true gospel.
He is the only way.

They are faced with a choice of following the one true gospel or allowing a false gospel to continue

If they choose to continue to allow the false gospel to be proclaimed then maybe that is the time for you to go


I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Ephesians 4:1-6

 

[Rev T.S.Perkins]

just a side note when the saducees and pharasees heard Jesus they werent onboard with Him either nor did they want Him to tell oters another doctrine but thiers ..youre in good company .......Rv

 

[Fragrant Grace]

But, my brethren, if it should ever come to be a matter which casts doubts upon the divinity of Christ,
Or the personality of the Holy Ghost,
If it should come to a matter of using gospel terms in a sense the most contrary to that which has ever been attached to them in any age of the truth;
If it should ever come to the marring and spoiling of our ideas of Divine justice,
And of that great atonement which is the basis of the whole gospel, as they have been delivered to us;
Then it is time my brethren once for all that the scabbard be thrown aside, that the sword be drawn.
Against any who assails those precious vital truths which constitute the heart of our holy religion, we must contend even to the death.
CH Spurgeon

I'm not suggesting you should take up a sword
But we should not be hesitant about standing up for Jesus and His word against those who pervert the gospel

For I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day.
2 Timothy 1:12

 

[Boanerges]

I've seen it before and said it before ,pride is the down fall of most ministers .. They refuse to hear a Godly word ( presented in a Godly way ) and bull up or refuse to consider if they have become a stumbling block to those in the flock.thats why a minister should always apply the word to ourselves first before we step in to Gods Holy light..If I may
let me remind you of the parable of the Tares and wheat. If you rip the weeds out by the roots then you disturb the whole field of wheat,,,,they wil be seperated on the day of harvest by the masters hand I assure you ! So again I say pray ! It's our strongest defence against a watered down word ..if you must go to a new place of worship make sure it's when God tells you to ,Follow the Spirit of The Lord you won't go wrong...in love Rev

I am of no import, and I can only render my opinion. That being said, make sure you go where the Lord leads you. He has had me in some unpleasant places because I am not always there for me, but am sometimes sent to help others.
As far as this brother, it seems we are all quite human, an our flesh does love to get religious. Although I have found that generally goes for the anointed finger-pointers as much as the lost sheep. Personally, I make a concerted effort to give more grace than I need, that seems to cover an enormous amount transgressions right there.
If it still seems that the Lord is leading me to intervene I recommend the following:

If we follow scripture when such a one is erring, we go to them privately without gossip, and without malice; lest we damage that broken reed, and quench that smoking flax. If rejected we can then (and only then) bring in other brothers, but all is done in an effort to restore the fallen. We are to speak the truth in love, if there is no love in what we say then we no long represent the Master but have become a pharisee our own self. But, if we let Love have His way, if we speak His truth in the power of, and at the leading of the Holy Spirit (just like Jesus) we may see a brother restored. Even if that one hardens their heart,all blame certainly rest only on his own head.

 

[dannibear]

I infact got warned that ikd be excommunicated if I made too much more noise.

I have been following this thread for awhile, and was wondering what denomination of church you attend that threatens you with excommunication?
I ask because I thought Roman Catholics were the only ones that did this practice, but after reading the predicament you are going through, I see now
that I am a bit clueless to this.

 

[Eddy Fire]

I have been following this thread for awhile, and was wondering what denomination of church you attend that threatens you with excommunication?
I ask because I thought Roman Catholics were the only ones that did this practice, but after reading the predicament you are going through, I see now
that I am a bit clueless to this.

the JW's do the same.
in fact a lot of different demoninations do

it's no diferent to being banned or deleted on a forum
it keeps thinkgs quite and makes it easier

Some take it seriously, churches that is
some don't

either way, everyone has to give an account for what they have been up to in their life
some of us believe that we have to live according to the law of God in Christ Jesus the Lord
others think and preach that it doesn't matter if you reject Jesus because you'll get a second chance
some speak up about those sort of things and even write/talk differently than others and they get blasted or excommunicated for being so 'unthoughtful' or 'rude'
some churches kick you out if you're anti gay stuff or if you are calvanistic, or overzealous for prosperity doctrines.
You don't usually hear much about it
there are other reasons too but generally it is not just the catholics that do it

you asked what church ML goes to
would you support her if you could?

 

[Shutterbug]

Good morning Mackem Lady;

Swimming upstream may sound good for some fishes returning to their roots, but it never brings relief for us.

There are a number of ways to approach your situation. One would be to point out the issue with the person(s) in the wrong in which all parties are left with a choice which leads to the same conclusion: someone must change, or leave. Another choice is to let sleeping dogs lie and carry on as if all were normal.

The politics within any environment can be its boon or its doom. While some will disagree with me, all churches (and I mean ALL CHURCHES) need good role models for the Gospel. Excommunication from a church organization is the same as dismissal from a job: you didn't play their game in the manner they wanted. Your church leadership needs time to render a decision - they may require more than a single complaint. Above that, leaders have to propose two options to the offender - what must be done to correct the issue, and what will be done if the issue is not corrected. If they like you, you can get away with more; if they do not like you, then you're gone at their discretion.

I don't have much scriptural advice to offer other than passing along have faith to be a part of the orchestra to move the mountain.

Cheers,
John
Phil 4:8