About The Bible

[ismipoppy]

In this thread And lead us not into temptation

The first post talks about 'what does this passage mean to you?'

'This is what it means to me'

My question is...The words in the book from God mean what it means....as God intended it to mean, so how can you have an opinion on what it mean?

Sorry if I worded the question wrongly.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Hello @ismipoppy

It might seem strange that a whole thread can have postings dedicated to what you seem to feel is as simple as the words that are written. "and lead us not into temptation"

It seems simple on the face of it. You have rightly said that it is God's word and it means what God intended it to mean.

However, one must read it within the context of the sentence, verse, chapter, book, testament and the entirety of His Word to attempt understanding.

For all of it contains meaning meant to be communicated to us by God. Not wanting to speak for the originator of this thread. I want to believe the intent is being made to see how each person identifies these words in their own lives.

To do so. requires us to see through God's eyes the truth as it is intended to be understood. You might think a simple few words and we have a simple understanding. To show you how it is not without getting to completely into the Bible references.

Let's break this part sentence into two parts. 1) "and lead us not into" 2) "temptation" The first part implies that God leads man (that is if we assume "us" means man) into..... Now for the second part. "Temptation".What is temptation?

A simple few words and a complete study can be made in truly trying to understand the significance of these words being included as part of an example of prayer that one should use to Almighty God.

When one prays to God it should be with understanding of what one is saying. Repeating words that we don't understand their significance of does what for us? God has given us His words to teach us. To allow us to understand Him.

If we lack understanding of His teachings and just repeat words. Are we faithful to what has been given to us to learn from? What have we learned? Of what value is it to us without understanding? So we seek to understand "and lead us not into temptation" that we might know Him and ourselves better. And in knowing Him better and ourselves, we are able to worship and follow Him more fully in the spirit He has given us.

Thank-you for inquiring, because I know this is not of your faith, and must seem curious to you!
Once again thank-you for sharing your thoughts respectfully.
C4E
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[amadeus2]

In this thread And lead us not into temptation

The first post talks about 'what does this passage mean to you?'

'This is what it means to me'

My question is...The words in the book from God mean what it means....as God intended it to mean, so how can you have an opinion on what it mean?

Sorry if I worded the question wrongly.

The Book is from God but it is not correctly understood by anyone without God's assistance, which He will provide to someone who seriously asks for it. This is one reason that there are so the many different groups or churches claiming to be Christian (followers of Christ) with sometime opposite viewpoints. There are people who sometimes ask for God's help in understanding and who at other times go according to their own minds. The Book itself contains an answer to this:

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

But as we both know, men do constantly want to direct their own steps. God's answer to this is that He has sent to us a Director, a Provider, Leader, of which you may have heard but in which you may not believe. In the New Testament of the Book, the Bible, the Director is often called the Holy Spirit.

This is our answer. Our difficulty, our problem is that we don't have to listen to that Director or to obey the direction received. We are able to ignore this Director sent to us by God and too often we do and we go astray from God's perfect Way.

 

[RJ]

My question is...The words in the book from God mean what it means....as God intended it to mean, so how can you have an opinion on what it mean?

What it means to you is not necessarily what it means to someone else and definitely may not be as God intended. You have to study the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelation and keep everything in context. Down through time, much of what God has written has been interpreted by man, their interpretation is there opinion based on a certain knowledge and understanding of the Bible in it's entirety.
The Bible says this is all folly ( lack of good sense or foolishness)...1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. This means the unbeliever can not understand.
I would suggest, if you have interest, read the all of the Bible. I would start with the New Testament, starting with Matthew to Revelations and reference the Old testament when it is mentioned. Then if you are encouraged read the Old Testament.
If you become involved and desire this type of salvation, pray and ask God / Jesus into your heart. I know this is hard to understand /believe, but if you do this and allow Jesus to live inside you, I PROMISE...you will have no problem understanding God's word...
Ephesians 3:19 May you experience the love of Christ, though it is too great to understand fully. Then you will be made complete with all the fullness of life and power that comes from God

 

[ismipoppy]

Thank you for the answers.

We have to go ask a formally trained scholar who has spent their whole entire life memorising Qur'an and knowing it in Arabic entirely. I think your book also is not originally English so we have that in common.

So you study individually The Bible and compare what you find with each other? The Holy Spirit makes you see the truth in what you read?

But like us you also have different groups like we have Sunni...Shia'....etc... You have Protestants....Catholics....etc... who understand differently.

We also share some stories and prophets such as Musa/Moses, Nur/Noah, David/Daood, Isa/Jesus and many more.

I studied some of the Bible and the Torah before I became Muslim. I like the passage in James 1:27 about true religion is about looking after the orphans and the widows and keeping yourself undefiled by the world. Too many people are defiled by this world. I like it because I used to live in a kids home when I was younger and I currently work in a Elderly Residential Care Home. I think those words in the Bible are close to my heart.

 

[RJ]

So you study individually The Bible and compare what you find with each other? The Holy Spirit makes you see the truth in what you read?

It is more like he helps / allows you to see the truth.

But like us you also have different groups like we have Sunni...Shia'....etc... You have Protestants....Catholics....etc... who understand differently.

In a sense, maybe but all of us agree that our God is the God of Abraham, Jacob and Issac and is not God (Allah).

We also share some stories and prophets such as Musa/Moses, Nur/Noah, David/Daood, Isa/Jesus and many more.

Yes we do share many things, but we are an off-shoot from Abraham and Jacob,The Muslim faith is an off-shoot of Abraham and Ishmael.
You see Jesus as a great prophet but we see him as the son of God and God at the same time.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Thank you for the answers.

We have to go ask a formally trained scholar who has spent their whole entire life memorising Qur'an and knowing it in Arabic entirely. I think your book also is not originally English so we have that in common.

So you study individually The Bible and compare what you find with each other? The Holy Spirit makes you see the truth in what you read?

But like us you also have different groups like we have Sunni...Shia'....etc... You have Protestants....Catholics....etc... who understand differently.

We also share some stories and prophets such as Musa/Moses, Nur/Noah, David/Daood, Isa/Jesus and many more.

I studied some of the Bible and the Torah before I became Muslim. I like the passage in James 1:27 about true religion is about looking after the orphans and the widows and keeping yourself undefiled by the world. Too many people are defiled by this world. I like it because I used to live in a kids home when I was younger and I currently work in a Elderly Residential Care Home. I think those words in the Bible are close to my heart.

Thank-you for sharing your thoughts.

Here are few words I would share with you that you might understand a bit more how we see, perceive, and come to understand the truth that God has allowed us to have through the Bible.

I hope the following definitions of 3 particular words "Revelation", "Inspiration", and "Illumination" come into comprehending our perspectives and at times our interaction with each other in our discussions. Our attempt is to always do this in Love but as you have noticed this is not always the case we are still works in progress!

1. Revelation. What do we mean by the term, “revelation”? The simple yet adequate explanation of the dictionary is, “A revelation is that which is revealed by God to man.” The word itself means “flinging or drawing back the veil,” thus signifying the removal of a veil or other obstruction to complete vision; the display or making known of that which was before concealed from view or from cognizance. A divine revelation, then, is the communication or disclosure by God to man of truths which he could not otherwise known, no matter how trustworthy his source of knowledge. Human search can never find God out. Whatever man desires or needs to know about God (all truth in revelation, must come from God Himself.) The Bible is not primarily a record of man’s thoughts of God, but a record of what God has done and revealed of Himself to man. Its basis is not “Thus and thus man thinks,” but “Thus and thus saith Jehovah,” or “Thus and thus hath Jehovah done.”

2. Inspiration. It is absolutely necessary to grasp the meaning of this oft-quoted term, seeing there is a vast difference between “revelation” and “inspiration.” Revelation is the subject matter of the message, that is, what God imparts to man, inspiration is the power or method by which man communicates his God-given message others. We may therefore regard inspiration as a special gift of the Holy Spirit, by which prophets of the Old Testament and the apostles and their companions in the New Testament transmitted the revelation of God as they received it.

3. Illumination. Spiritual illumination is different either from Bible inspiration or revelation.” It is the work of the Holy Spirit in the believer, by which he has his “spiritual understanding” opened to understand the Scriptures. (Words of Jesus Christ John 16:12,15)

C4E
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[ismipoppy]

You see Jesus as a great prophet but we see him as the son of God and God at the same time.

Yeh we could compare similarities all day long but it really comes down to this doesn't it? I have to admit, I really don't understand this aspect and it's pivotal to the Christian faith I know. I think it's something Christians accept rather than understand. The Orthodox Christians (which I used to study a bit before I was Muslim) they say "it's a mystery" and leave it at that.

 

[ismipoppy]

@Christ4Ever It's really interesting that your Holy Spirit is the living interacting part of the God who makes the words of the bible, alive. Have I got that correct? Because our book we see as holy words which is why we have to consult a scholar to understand them. Where as you ask Holy Spirit for illumination, revelation and inspiration. Do you know why God is divided into three parts as well as being one whole part at the same time?

 

[Ophel]

Yeh we could compare similarities all day long but it really comes down to this doesn't it? I have to admit, I really don't understand this aspect and it's pivotal to the Christian faith I know. I think it's something Christians accept rather than understand. The Orthodox Christians (which I used to study a bit before I was Muslim) they say "it's a mystery" and leave it at that.

It's really interesting that your Holy Spirit is the living interacting part of the God who makes the words of the bible, alive. Have I got that correct? Because our book we see as holy words which is why we have to consult a scholar to understand them. Where as you ask Holy Spirit for illumination, revelation and inspiration. Do you know why God is divided into three parts as well as being one whole part at the same time?

In Christ we have access to all mysteries.

Colossians 1:26-27
In the past God hid this mystery, but now he has revealed it to his people. 27 God wanted his people throughout the world to know the glorious riches of this mystery—which is Christ living in you, giving you the hope of glory.




We have knowledge that comes from God through His word and from Him directly, as He lives in us. We don't need scholars to impart God's wisdom or knowledge to us. We have God Himself, because we have become His children, who bear His light to the world, through faith in Jesus, our Messiah, His provision of love to the world.

1 John 2:27
But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true—it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.


.

 

[RJ]

Yeh we could compare similarities all day long but it really comes down to this doesn't it? I have to admit, I really don't understand this aspect and it's pivotal to the Christian faith I know.

I understand. The Bible says this:
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 2:14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
Nothing against you personally , but with the Christian, without the spirit of God in you, it is impossible to understand.
Does your religion teach that God's Spirit lives in you?

 

[Christ4Ever]

@ismipoppy

@Christ4Ever It's really interesting that your Holy Spirit is the living interacting part of the God who makes the words of the bible, alive. Have I got that correct? Because our book we see as holy words which is why we have to consult a scholar to understand them. Where as you ask Holy Spirit for illumination, revelation and inspiration. Do you know why God is divided into three parts as well as being one whole part at the same time?

I like the way you said that. "...makes the words of the Bible, alive." For truly His Word is Alive!

In certain ways the similarity of your book in needing to consult a scholar to understand them is also done by many who desire to know more as it pertains to the Bible. However, the results of doing so can vary depending on the scholar. We, Christianity, have had what would be considered scholars who have studied a life time and have concluded wrongly what His Word has communicated. This has been evidenced by them making statements which were never realized and proven to be false. It must be a hundred percent accurate or it's not from God. I'm sure it is the same for you and your book.

The opposite of the above situation is also true. Many without the study of a lifetime have come to understand and have stated rightly what God has communicated in His Word. I've come to see that they don't necessarily attribute this to any special ability on their part. They will normally acknowledge that it is by virtue of illumination from the Holy Spirit that they do comprehend. Even though they might not use the word that I have "illumination" to describe the method of their understanding.

Sadly, too often one finds what one wants to find rather than finding what God wants them to know. Therefore, the Holy Spirit and the ability to distinguish between knowing His voice against ones' own thoughts and desires is to be considered.

I once saw the question posed to different people of different faiths, and beliefs. "What is truth?" The range of answers I couldn't even remember they were so convoluted in their explanations in trying to answer this one question. Until one boy, in his early teens 13-15 years of age spoke. He appeared to be disabled and sitting in what looked to be a wheel chair. His reply has stayed with me these many years. The simplicity and depth of his words struck me strongly. He said "Truth is what you see when you look through the eyes of God." Know this ismipoppy. It is the Holy Spirit who is our eyes to comprehending His Word as well as such much more to those who believe in the Christ Jesus.

I hope that you understand that if I insult in my words or inquiry there is no intent on my part to do so.

I'm curious if in your own faith you have the Trinity of God and if so. Is the why explained?