Abraham & how we effect those around us

[lentz]

This thought came about by thinking of the "other little ships" Mark 4:35.
I think of how those in smaller ships handled the storm.
I think perhaps the storm was for the benefit of the disciples,but still others became involved.

Then there is Abraham and the bond woman. God told Abraham all nations would be blessed by him. But is it possible he also brought a curse of sorts?Because he took his of God for that moment,Israel is being persecuted to this day. And the world.
Just a thought

 

[Christ4Ever]

Dear lentz,
There is always cause and effect.

Think on what Saul failed to do, and what his failure almost caused can be read in the Book of Esther. The archenemy of the Jewish people was Haman, who if Saul had obeyed God, would not have been alive to cause such trouble!

We can ponder the what ifs, but just remember that it is always better to obey God, and be patient, waiting upon the Lord, then thinking you know better and going another way!

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[lentz]

Dear lentz,
There is always cause and effect.

Think on what Saul failed to do, and what his failure almost caused can be read in the Book of Esther. The archenemy of the Jewish people was Haman, who if Saul had obeyed God, would not have been alive to cause such trouble!

We can ponder the what ifs, but just remember that it is always better to obey God, and be patient, waiting upon the Lord, then thinking you know better and going another way!

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
\o/
<><

I can understand that brother.
Some live their lives like a boat on the water,taking no thought to the devastation left behind in their wake.
Thats how i lived my old life anyway

 

[Rhema]

the "other little ships"

In Mark 4:36 we're dealing with two different Greek words... πλοιάριον (G4142) and its root πλοῖον (G4143).

And when they had sent away the multitude, they took him even as he was in the ship (G4143). And there were also with him other little ships (G4142).​

(Mark 4:36 KJV)​

But who were the "they" and what is this "taking" all about?

I truly don't find the English gloss "take" to be representative of the action in the verb παραλαμβάνω (G3880). And while I strongly dislike Strong's, even he realized that it did not describe mere movement, but meant - to "associate with." And I provide a link to the Liddell Scott Lexicon...

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, παραλαμβάνω

www.perseus.tufts.edu

Given that the following noun is in the Accusative case, one ought to look at the entry A II - associate with oneself

As I read the text, starting in 4:1, Jesus entered a ship, an honest to goodness ship that sailed upon the Mediterranean Sea. Why? To get up higher so the crowds on the LAND (not a sandy beach) could hear him. πλοῖον (G4143), (the ship that Jesus was on) is the word used to describe merchant ships that sail on the Mediterranean. The ship was in port, docked against the land (a stone harbour), and did indeed provide a wonderful podium or platform from which Jesus could stand and preach out over the crowds.

So when the disciples sent the multitudes away, they, the multitudes, associated themselves with Jesus, trying to get on his ship. The other "little ships" ought to be called "skiffs," the type of small boat that one would take out to a ship in order to board it.

I understand the Sunday school cartoon images of Jesus sitting, essentially, in a canoe by the beach, but that's not the scene as I read it. And yes, I know many think they know where the "country of the Gadarenes" is, but they don't. There is credible evidence to show that the Gadarenes was a Jewish colony that lived on a small chain of islands on the other side of the Mediterranean by Spain.

And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.​

(Mark 5:1 KJV)​

When the storm hit, it was in the middle of the Mediterranean, and none of the skiffs were around.

Yes, the text does not say Mediterranean, but it doesn't say Galilee either. That's an assumption. Jesus meant to preach to the utter ends of the earth, and he did. He traveled all the way to Spain, where even they rejected him.

​

And they began to pray him to depart out of their coasts.​

(Mark 5:17 KJV)​

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Think on what Saul failed to do, and what his failure almost caused can be read in the Book of Esther. The archenemy of the Jewish people was Haman, who if Saul had obeyed God, would not have been alive to cause such trouble!

I'm sorry, Nick, but the book of Esther is late Jewish fiction. In all the scrolls found in the Dead Sea collection, there is not a single copy of Esther.

Rhema

 

[Christ4Ever]

I'm sorry, Nick, but the book of Esther is late Jewish fiction. In all the scrolls found in the Dead Sea collection, there is not a single copy of Esther.

Rhema

Dear Rhema,
Don't be sorry, it's okay.
One can't say that the Dead Sea collection was all inclusive, just that it confirms the ones that were there.
So, not finding the Book of Ester, is neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned. The historical nature of the Book of Ester has been argued back and forth for quite a long time. As seems to be the case in some things. You are on one side, while I am on the other. Any surprise? lol

However, please don't take the last observation of mine as me wanting to open up a discussion on the subject.
My apologies if I gave you any hope that it might lead to one!

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Rhema]

However, please don't take the last observation of mine as me wanting to open up a discussion on the subject.
My apologies if I gave you any hope that it might lead to one!

Wasn't expecting one, but fictional morality plays are still useful tools to teach spiritual lessons.

Rhema

 

[complete]

Then there is Abraham and the bond woman. God told Abraham all nations would be blessed by him. But is it possible he also brought a curse of sorts? Because he took his of God for that moment, Israel is being persecuted to this day. And the world.
Just a thought

(1) Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar.
(2) And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid;
it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.
(3) And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan,
and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.
(4) And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes.
(5) And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; a
nd when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes:
the LORD judge between me and thee.
(6) But Abram said unto Sarai, Behold, thy maid is in thy hand; do to her as it pleaseth thee. And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled from her face.
(7) And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.
(8) And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai.
(9) And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
(10) And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
(11) And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
(12) And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
(13) And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?
(14) Wherefore the well was called Beerlahairoi; behold, it is between Kadesh and Bered.
(15) And Hagar bare Abram a son: and Abram called his son's name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael.
(16) And Abram was fourscore and six years old, when Hagar bare Ishmael to Abram.
(Genesis 16:1-16)

Hi lentz,

How important it is for us to trust in the Lord with all our heart, and lean not unto our own understanding, and in all our ways acknowledge Him, for He shall direct our paths. How dearly they wanted children, and time was passing, they did not know that God would wait until they were incapable of producing children naturally, before He would keep the promise made to them: in order that it's miraculous nature should be without doubt, and all glory and honour be ascribed to Him, and Him only. The trial of their faith was long and hard to bare, for Sarai particularly, who bore the scorn of her fellow wives, who themselves had born children, and so she leaned to her own understanding, and they and their much longed for offspring reaped the consequences.

'After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying,
Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless,
and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir;
but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them:
and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.'
(Gen 15:1-6)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

' I wait for the LORD,
my soul doth wait,
and in His word do I hope.'
(Psa 130:5)

 

[Christ4Ever]

Wasn't expecting one, but fictional morality plays are still useful tools to teach spiritual lessons.

Rhema

Dear Brother,
Exactly how many of the non-believers see Jesus and the Bible.

With the Love of Christ Jesus brother.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

In Mark 4:36 we're dealing with two different Greek words... πλοιάριον (G4142) and its root πλοῖον (G4143).

And when they had sent away the multitude, they took him even as he was in the ship (G4143). And there were also with him other little ships (G4142).(Mark 4:36 KJV)
But who were the "they" and what is this "taking" all about?

excuse my crude/base Greek to English, but could we render that as, 'they took to Him'? Something we might say and agree upon with an understanding, these days?

Oh that many would take to Him today and follow after and come to that place of believing praise and thanksgiving


Bless you ....><>

 

[Garee]

In Mark 4:36 we're dealing with two different Greek words... πλοιάριον (G4142) and its root πλοῖον (G4143).

And when they had sent away the multitude, they took him even as he was in the ship (G4143). And there were also with him other little ships (G4142).​

(Mark 4:36 KJV)​

But who were the "they" and what is this "taking" all about?

I truly don't find the English gloss "take" to be representative of the action in the verb παραλαμβάνω (G3880). And while I strongly dislike Strong's, even he realized that it did not describe mere movement, but meant - to "associate with." And I provide a link to the Liddell Scott Lexicon...

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, παραλαμβάνω

www.perseus.tufts.edu

Given that the following noun is in the Accusative case, one ought to look at the entry A II - associate with oneself

As I read the text, starting in 4:1, Jesus entered a ship, an honest to goodness ship that sailed upon the Mediterranean Sea. Why? To get up higher so the crowds on the LAND (not a sandy beach) could hear him. πλοῖον (G4143), (the ship that Jesus was on) is the word used to describe merchant ships that sail on the Mediterranean. The ship was in port, docked against the land (a stone harbour), and did indeed provide a wonderful podium or platform from which Jesus could stand and preach out over the crowds.

So when the disciples sent the multitudes away, they, the multitudes, associated themselves with Jesus, trying to get on his ship. The other "little ships" ought to be called "skiffs," the type of small boat that one would take out to a ship in order to board it.

I understand the Sunday school cartoon images of Jesus sitting, essentially, in a canoe by the beach, but that's not the scene as I read it. And yes, I know many think they know where the "country of the Gadarenes" is, but they don't. There is credible evidence to show that the Gadarenes was a Jewish colony that lived on a small chain of islands on the other side of the Mediterranean by Spain.

And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.​

(Mark 5:1 KJV)​

When the storm hit, it was in the middle of the Mediterranean, and none of the skiffs were around.

Yes, the text does not say Mediterranean, but it doesn't say Galilee either. That's an assumption. Jesus meant to preach to the utter ends of the earth, and he did. He traveled all the way to Spain, where even they rejected him.

​

And they began to pray him to depart out of their coasts.​

(Mark 5:17 KJV)​

Rhema

Thanks . . interesting preaching the good news from a high place . . as if all the kingdoms of this world. Using a ship like a mountain or hill .

The sword of the Spirit cuts both ways dividing the lambs from the goats.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Christian are the children of light reflecting the glory on high .

Matthew 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

 

[Rhema]

but could we render that as, 'they took to Him'?

Brother Bear,

Were that to be the case, the word "they" would need to be written in the dative case, saying "to him." It is not. αυτον is written in the accusative case to indicate the direct object of the action - They (action) him.

Over the years I have had to trash numerous Sunday school cartoon images of Jesus, and this is one of them.

And I stand by both lexicons of "associate oneself with" as the correct rendering of the verb... wait a second, let me check my Cambridge Greek Lexicon...

Okay, there are 12 entries for the verb PARALAMBANW, most often translated as "TAKE." The first five carry the action of "taking over" something or "taking over" from someone. But these "they" didn't take over the ship, and the verb is not written in the subjunctive mood to indicate any attempt at taking over the ship and failing. Now the passage might be conveying the action of the disciples OR some other outside disruptive force taking over and dispersing the multitudes even while Jesus was on the ship.... (read)

And when they had sent away the multitude, they took (over from) him even as he was in the ship. And there were also with him other little ships.​

(Mark 4:36)​

But it wouldn't make sense for the disciples to send away the multitude but then take over teaching the multitude ... "even as he was in the ship."

One could theorize that these "they" might be inimical Jewish leaders, taking over from Jesus by sending the multitudes away even as Jesus was in the ship, but the previous verse has Jesus making this decision...

And the same day, when the even was come, he saith unto them, Let us pass over unto the other side. And when they had sent away the multitude, they took him even as he was in the ship. And there were also with him other little ships.​

(Mark 4:35-36 KJV)​

But why mention other little ships?

Let's look at the Young's literal version -

And he saith to them on that day, evening having come, 'We may pass over to the other side;'​

(Mark 4:35 YLT)​

It seems obvious that Jesus was ready to leave, and that he himself initiated the "sending away" of the multitude, giving orders to the ship's crew to depart - "We may pass over..."

Now I am more than willing to admit that the text here in Mark is just NOT a screenplay. I wish there were more detail to the account so there would be less "artistic" need when envisioning the action, but I am more than comfortable given the fact that "other little ships" or "skiffs" were mentioned, that (when sent away), a goodly amount of the multitude boarded these other little ships and tried to "associate themselves" (PARALAMBANW) with Jesus to get on the larger ship; and that Jesus was heading off toward Spain, on the other side of the sea to preach his gospel to the ends of the earth.

That said, I will allow that these "other little ships" may have composed a flotilla of smaller trade vessels that traveled with the big ship. But we truly don't have any time referent to think that any of the little boats were around the ship in the next verse. And I don't know of any trading vessel in the Mediterranean to be called a πλοιάριον, or little boat.

Ultimately, all we have is this -

And he saith to them on that day, evening having come, 'We may pass over to the other side;' and having let away the multitude, they PARALAMBANW him as he was in the boat, and other little boats also were with him. ................... And there cometh a great storm of wind, and the waves were beating on the boat, so that it is now being filled,​

(Mark 4:35-37 YLT~)​

Blessings,
Rhema

 

[Br. Bear]

Thank you @Rhema

well explained


Bless you ....><>