According to the Scriptures

[stephen]

The Bible makes uncompromisingly clear to all mankind its claim to be the infallible, inerrant Word of the only true and living God. It denounces all other gods and scriptures as false, as well as the religions they represent. Of Jesus, God's Word declares, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (Jn 3:36). Peter told Jewish religious leaders (and was beaten, imprisoned, and killed for testifying to Christ's resurrection): "There is none other name...given among men whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

Such unequivocal statements cannot be misunderstood. Jews would not have been persecuted and killed had they presented Yahweh as just one more god to be added to the Roman Pantheon. Christians were considered an even greater threat because in obedience to Christ they preached the gospel everywhere and thereby "turned the world upside down" (Acts 17:6). Even they would not have been persecuted and killed had they presented Jesus Christ as merely one of many possible saviors. It was their firm proclamation of Christ's claim, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (Jn 14:6), that threatened Caesar and aroused such vicious hatred. Today, however, to avoid the objectionable exclusivity of their faith, "Christians" often compromise and many ecumenically deny the biblical gospel.

Christianity is a biblical faith, and the Bible is not an "ecumenical" book. It makes no compromise with any of the world's religions. Those who support ecumenism to any extent, no matter how loudly they defend their orthodoxy, are not Bible-believing Christians. At worst they are deliberate frauds; at best they are confused into simultaneously professing two contradictory beliefs (syncretism). Which do they really believe? Speaking out of both sides of their mouths is a popular ploy today of both political and "Christian" leaders.

Anyone is free to invent any new religion-but not free to call it Christianity. That faith is founded upon facts: Scripture, history, and prophecy, all of which are a matter of clear record and none of which can be changed. These facts cannot honestly be denied.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

I love your message here, Stephen, and I agree with it wholeheartedly. Ecumenism without basic affirmation of the Biblical principles you mentioned is a fraud. For example, how can we have any agreement with the churches that would approve abortion-on-demand and openly welcome homosexuals into the ranks of the clergy? How can we tie in with those who buy the Universal God concept? I have a good friend who has bought into that concept and I cringe whenever I hear him speak of it. I try to take advantage of every opportunity I have to draw him away from that foolishness. People who buy into this stuff may call themselves Christians, but, they do not qualify as true followers of Jesus.

"Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowsip can light have with darkness?" (2 Cor 6:14)

SLE

 

[Laudite]

Friends, it seems to me you might wish to consider the Epistle of Paul to the Romans, especially chapter two. Consider:
"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another." (14-15)

Paul's point is that even the Gentiles among the church in Rome through their pagan beliefs or philosophy have come to the same truth of God's law that He revealed to the Jews. His exhortation to the Jews of the Roman Church, therefore, is not to shun the Roman ways of the Gentiles in the church, but to accept them and help one another to live in Christ, who fufills all God's law. When you ask, therefore, to what profit is ecumenism to the Christian, in our encounters with non-Christians, ecumenism allows us to see the good in other religions that they have ascertained 'from nature' and indeed tailor our evangelism to fit that culture, even as Paul set up a church for both Jews and Gentiles in Rome. Truly, and with an earnest heart, I must warn you against concluding that other religions are only full of sin, and in particular filling your heart with outrage against their sins. The language of Romans is very strong on this point
"again chapter 2;
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? "

Because, as Paul says in Chapter 3:
"9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

For intra-church ecumenism, the profit of such a venture is manifest, in that as we are divided our resources do less, and we waste our efforts where they might work for a common purpose. Though we may disagree with our brothers, we still agree on the important things, namely that by repenting our sins and being baptised in Christ we are saved. Remember, every one of us is a sinner, not one of us can be justified. In particular, remember that none of us perfectly understands the Word of the Lord, and none of us has completely repented: again, Romans 3:

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Therefore the closer we work together, the more of Christs work we may do. I think the parable of the Good Samaritan teaches the right path here. If we may save another (or as is most likely, thousands more) lives and souls and bring such comfort together, but do not because we think our brother Christians to be sinful, do we not act like the preist, who saw the Samaritan dying on the road but refused to help, because helping would make him unclean?

Just my two cents.

 

[rjones]

The Prayer of Jesus for unity sadly hasn't come to pass yet. "...I pray...that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me" (John 17:20-21). Jesus prayed that His Church would have the same expression of unity as God has Himself - three and yet one. This unity is a unity in Christ, not a unity in compromise. The foundation of true Christian unity is the Gospel and a common relationship with Jesus. We can have unity with each other because we are all individually united with Christ (Philippians 2:1-2). Christ is the foundation of our individual lives and also the foundation of our unity. Unity is not an option. It is a command. Jesus said "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another" (John 13:34-35). In Mark 9, we find the disciples participating in three different arguments.
We're right! (Mark 9:14-16,28)
We're the greatest! (Mark 9:33-34)
You're not one of us! (Mark 9:38-40)
These same arguments can be found in the Church today. God is working to break down these three barriers to unity - divisions over doctrine (Titus 3:9-11), selfish ambition (Philippians 2:3-4) and exclusiveness (Romans 12:3-5) to bring His Church into true unity in Christ. This does not mean that we all become the same. It does not even mean that we must all agree on every small point of doctrine. God has built great diversity in the Body and part of our unity means having an appreciation for that diversity. "Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit - just as you were called to one hope when you were called - one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all" (Ephesians 4:3-6). We do not need to ask God for unity. We already have it in Christ! But we need to keep that unity "through the bond of peace." It is in this unity that "the whole measure of the fullness of Christ" is expressed through our lives to the world. "...until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ" (Ephesians 4:13). I dissagree with this statement " Therefore the closer we work together, the more of Christs work we may do". I believe our attitude should be the same as Christ Jesus (Philippians 2:5). The ministry of Jesus was founded on an attitude - a way of looking at Himself, at His Father and at the world. Jesus was working with the Father (John 5:17).
Jesus could do nothing by Himself (John 5:19). Jesus sought to please His Father (John 5:30). I believe we can join in the work of God through Christ Jesus. I think it's dangerously close to self-effort when we focus on what we can do.

 

[stephen]

I am so pleased to reflect upon the sovreignty of God. God is Sovereign. Looking back over the years of time, it appears that God steps in when all seem's lost.

As Christians we look out upon society today, and despair. WE do our best to serve the one we love.....Jesus. But in the area of progress...........we dont see what we want to see: early Church signs and wonders.

We press on in the Lord, confident of this very thing that "Our God Reigns" this is true.

I am sure we will see our desire in God fulfilled er'e long

 

[Laudite]

I dissagree with this statement " Therefore the closer we work together, the more of Christs work we may do". I believe our attitude should be the same as Christ Jesus (Philippians 2:5). The ministry of Jesus was founded on an attitude - a way of looking at Himself, at His Father and at the world. Jesus was working with the Father (John 5:17).
Jesus could do nothing by Himself (John 5:19). Jesus sought to please His Father (John 5:30). I believe we can join in the work of God through Christ Jesus. I think it's dangerously close to self-effort when we focus on what we can do.

I think I must not have made myself clear, since it appears we are in agreement. In particular, I think your points about our unity being in Christ Jesus are eloquently put. In translating your biblical language into modern Christianity, I think we have to consider that many of our churches are in conflict with one another. The fact is, unfortunately, many denominations and many people feel that other denominations aren't really saved or not truly Christian. I think that this conflict disrupts our unity in Christ in an even more significant way than the early conflicts you cite. I think the unity in Christ you talk about manifests itself in denominational relations as a statement of shared communion (literally that we are a community in Christ) such as between the Anglican Communion and Lutheran Churches.

As to doing God's work, my point is merely this: Christ calls us to care for one another (as every person is His brother or sister.) Surely you are correct that we cannot do God's work but that we do so through Christ. However, the undeniable economic reality is that when we work seperately we cannot accomplish as much as when we work together. Consider the following situation: a Catholic, Episcopal, Methodist, and Evangelical church are in a certain town with many hungry homeless persons. Through four different outreach ministries, they share food, shelter, and the Good News to 200 persons. However, were they to put aside their differences in doctrine and agree that part of being a good Christian is feeding the hungry, they might reach 300 homeless persons. This is even more true on a global scale because of the economies of scale. Truly, good works are not sufficient for salvation, but they are the duty of the Church.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Re: According to Scripture

Jesus was working with the Father (John 5:17). Jesus could do nothing by Himself (John 5:19). Jesus sought to please His Father (John 5:30). I believe we can join in the work of God through Christ Jesus. I think it's dangerously close to self-effort when we focus on what we can do.

My great concern with the ecumenical movement revolves around the motives of the church leaders involved. Sorry, my Catholic friends, but I have to say this: when the pedophilia scandal broke out in the Roman Catholic Church and a commission of laypeople was impaneled to investigate, the group almost immediately encountered an attempt by a number of bishops to - in the words of one commission member - "circle the wagons in order to protect the church's assets." In other words, those bishops were more interested in the church's bank balances and properties than they were in removing the evil in their midst.

Phariseeism needs to be purged from the church before true unity under the Holy Spirit can come.

SLE

 

[Laudite]

My great concern with the ecumenical movement revolves around the motives of the church leaders involved. Sorry, my Catholic friends, but I have to say this: when the pedophilia scandal broke out in the Roman Catholic Church and a commission of laypeople was impaneled to investigate, the group almost immediately encountered an attempt by a number of bishops to - in the words of one commission member - "circle the wagons in order to protect the church's assets." In other words, those bishops were more interested in the church's bank balnces and properties than they were in removing the evil in their midst.

Phariseeism needs to be purged from the church before true unity under the Holy Spirit can come.

SLE

Truly, we are ALL sinners, though some sins are more obvius than others. I'm not sure what you mean by phariseeism, but if you're only willing to work with perfect people, you will still be waiting when the trumpet sounds. What bad can come from frank dialogue? We probably find we have much to agree about.

 

[ByJesus45]

Essential and nt essential in Faith

Essential and not essential in Faith and in Church

Hi all. I want to speak about our Faith to God, and about Churches.
Me must understand that it is different thing to be a son of God, member of spiritual Church, and to have spiritual knowledge. We can have wrong spiritual knowledges, but to have right Faith to God, and to Jesus.
This imagination that we have only correct, true knowledge about God, Bible, and that we must have only correct, true knowledge about Faith for to be saved it is very wrong and not Biblical. Bible teaches that we must have Faith in to few subjects, that is necessary, I will try to say.
1.Faith to the creator God.
2.Faith to the Jesus Christ as king of universe and head of spiritual Church.
3.Faith to our salvation and righteousness by faith. 4.Faith to the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
5.Faith to the name of Jesus Christ.
6.Faith to the eternal glorified life of sons of God.
7.Destruction of sinners.
8.Faith to the moral Law of God, (10 commandments of God).
Faith to have moral life. And love Christians as our brothers and sisters.
9. Faith to that that we must confess our sins to God and repent our sins.
10.Faith to the Bible as word of God and to the Gospel.
I think it is all. It is example.
So I say there is many other subjects that are truths, but they are not necessary for to be saved. It is right that when we have correct knowledges about Word of God and when we are wiser then our life will be more blessed. And so every believer can understand many words, verses in Bible in wrong way, but when they are not essential for the salvation the believer continues to be son of God and member of spiritual Church.
There are many questions that they are very interesting, but not essential.
For example,
To have resting in Saturday or in Sunday.
Eternal life is in spirit or in body.
We must eat meat or not.
Church must have democratic structure or not.
The Earth is spherical or flat.
And so on. You can see, if you would want that, in itself many of these type questions Not religious questions, but philosophical, scientific questions.
We must differ what is Church and what is spiritual servants of a Church.
Church-it is all the believers of Christ. But many speak about church as a organization of a spiritual servants of the Church. Catholic Church, Protestant Church, Lutheran Church, Orthodox Church and so on. But these are not Churches in Biblical view; these are only theological Schools with big traditions of even 2000 years old. These theological Schools want to have answers in every spiritual question, this make them to do many wrongs. Beside that they enforce the members of their Churches to believe in their theological resolutions they made. And who don’ta want to believe them they think that they have a right to throw the believe of Christ, son of God from the Church, and so in 2000 years. Especially have a big sin in this question Catholic Church but Protestants also not innocent in this subject. Our enemy not Catholic Church or Protestant Church, our enemy is the World and all satanic forces. May many Christians are fooled by the Devil and they work for him, but they don’ta understand it as in his time Catholic Church did.
Noting can separate us from God if we have a Faith to Jesus Christ and keep His moral law. (10 commandments of God).
I think we must give a little attention in many interesting questions and don’ta persecute other Christians, our brothers and sisters, sons of God
for not essential subjects.
We Christians are very powerful, we can conquer the entire world and God have given us every thing in the world.
God bless you
In the name of Jesus
New slogan for Christians.
“ Freedom to Christians, Freedom for Christians, and Freedom in Christians ”.

 

[Laudite]

Brother 45- Amen to that. Though I do have a few questions:

1.Faith to the creator God.
2.Faith to the Jesus Christ as king of universe and head of spiritual Church.
3.Faith to our salvation and righteousness by faith.
4.Faith to the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
5.Faith to the name of Jesus Christ.
6.Faith to the eternal glorified life of sons of God.
7.Destruction of sinners.
8.Faith to the moral Law of God, (10 commandments of God).
Faith to have moral life. And love Christians as our brothers and sisters.
9. Faith to that that we must confess our sins to God and repent our sins.
10.Faith to the Bible as word of God and to the Gospel.

So most of this seems to be the underpinings of the Nicene Creed. I think pretty much all Christians can agree with that. But specifically:

I don't think I understand what you mean by #6

I really don't get where you're getting #7

Isn't #8 necessary for the old covenant, but superfluous to the new covenant?

 

[stephen]

Friends, it seems to me you might wish to consider the Epistle of Paul to the Romans, especially chapter two. Consider:
"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another." (14-15)

Paul's point is that even the Gentiles among the church in Rome through their pagan beliefs or philosophy have come to the same truth of God's law that He revealed to the Jews. His exhortation to the Jews of the Roman Church, therefore, is not to shun the Roman ways of the Gentiles in the church, but to accept them and help one another to live in Christ, who fufills all God's law. When you ask, therefore, to what profit is ecumenism to the Christian, in our encounters with non-Christians, ecumenism allows us to see the good in other religions that they have ascertained 'from nature' and indeed tailor our evangelism to fit that culture, even as Paul set up a church for both Jews and Gentiles in Rome. Truly, and with an earnest heart, I must warn you against concluding that other religions are only full of sin, and in particular filling your heart with outrage against their sins. The language of Romans is very strong on this point
"again chapter 2;
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? "

Because, as Paul says in Chapter 3:
"9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

For intra-church ecumenism, the profit of such a venture is manifest, in that as we are divided our resources do less, and we waste our efforts where they might work for a common purpose. Though we may disagree with our brothers, we still agree on the important things, namely that by repenting our sins and being baptised in Christ we are saved. Remember, every one of us is a sinner, not one of us can be justified. In particular, remember that none of us perfectly understands the Word of the Lord, and none of us has completely repented: again, Romans 3:

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Therefore the closer we work together, the more of Christs work we may do. I think the parable of the Good Samaritan teaches the right path here. If we may save another (or as is most likely, thousands more) lives and souls and bring such comfort together, but do not because we think our brother Christians to be sinful, do we not act like the preist, who saw the Samaritan dying on the road but refused to help, because helping would make him unclean?

Just my two cents.

The argument Paul is making in the first ch's. of the Roman letter is that "there is non righteous...no not one....for all have sinned.....and come short........" .... etc

All men depend completely upon Jesus for salvation. I revolt more and more against the belief that Christianity depends upon men, and the idea that together can achieve this.


"Salvation is of the Lord" Absolutely.....and all who look to other