Annihilation?

[B-A-C]

Some Calvinists believe in annihilationism, which is the doctrine that condemned unbelievers will be completely annihilated or destroyed after their resurrection, instead of spending an eternity of punishment in hell. However, most evangelical conditionalists do not believe in annihilation and distance themselves from its materialist connotations. Some Christian denominations influenced by the Millerite/Adventist movement in the mid-19th century also hold to annihilationism. Annihilationists base their belief on their exegesis of scripture, early church writings, and the concept of God as too loving to torment his creations forever.

Destroyed For Ever: An Examination of the Debates Concerning Annihilation and Conditional Immortality

There is no doctrine I would more willingly remove from Christianity than [hell], if it lay in my power … I would pay any price to be able to say truthfully: ‘All will be saved.’1 C.S. Lewis states clearly what is probably true for most modern Christians. Hell may well be unique amongst...

www.thegospelcoalition.org

Annihilationism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Some annihilationist Christian denominations were influenced by the Millerite/Adventist movement of the mid-19th century. These include the Seventh-day Adventists, Bible Students, Christadelphians and various Advent Christian churches. Additionally, some Protestant and Anglican writers have also proposed annihilationist doctrines. The Church of England's Doctrine Commission reported in 1995 that Hell may be a state of "total non-being", not eternal torment.

1. Matthew 25:46 - "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." This verse contrasts eternal punishment with eternal life, suggesting that both states are everlasting
   
   
2. Revelation 14:11 - "And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name." This implies ongoing, eternal suffering
   
   
3. Daniel 12:2 - "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt." This verse indicates that the wicked will face everlasting contempt
   
   
4. Mark 9:48 - "Where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." This imagery suggests unending torment

These verses are often interpreted to mean that the punishment for the wicked is eternal, rather than a complete annihilation.
Also it seems the devil and the beast won't be annihilated.

Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[B-A-C]

This verse says angels can never die.

Luke 20:36 for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

It would seem this includes all the fallen angels as well.

Matt 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Jude 1:6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

This seems to say they will face eternal punishment.

 

[Dave M]

Some say Torment is not something God would do, maybe they look at the word incorrectly
torment, sure seems to me who ever takes the mark is going to be tormented for ever
King James Bible
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
βασανισμοῦ (basanismou)
Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular
Strong's 929: Torture, torment. From basanizo; torture.

eternal
αἰώνιον (aiōnion)
Adjective - Accusative Feminine Singular
Strong's 166: From aion; perpetual.

punishment,
κόλασιν (kolasin)
Noun - Accusative Feminine Singular
Strong's 2851: Chastisement, punishment, torment, perhaps with the idea of deprivation. From kolazo; penal infliction.

 

[Rhema]

Some say Torment is not something God would do, maybe they look at the word incorrectly
torment, sure seems to me who ever takes the mark is going to be tormented for ever
King James Bible
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
βασανισμοῦ (basanismou)
Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular
Strong's 929: Torture, torment. From basanizo; torture.

eternal
αἰώνιον (aiōnion)
Adjective - Accusative Feminine Singular
Strong's 166: From aion; perpetual.

punishment,
κόλασιν (kolasin)
Noun - Accusative Feminine Singular
Strong's 2851: Chastisement, punishment, torment, perhaps with the idea of deprivation. From kolazo; penal infliction.

Another good reason why Satan wanted the Catholic Bishops to put Revelation in their canon in 393 AD.

(And a good reason why the Church of the East, sometimes known as the Thomas Christians, rejected the book.)
-----------------------------

But look, Dave, Strong's isn't a Greek Lexicon and it certainly isn't a resource used by any qualified scholar. And c'mon, the two Greek words you listed aren't even in the verse you quoted.

And the smoke of their torment G929 ascendeth up for ever G165 and ever G165: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

(Revelation 14:11 KJV)

και ο καπνος του βασανισμου G929 αυτων αναβαινει εις (INTO) αιωνας (THE AGES G165 direct object, plural) αιωνων (OF AGES G165 possessive, plural) και ουκ εχουσιν αναπαυσιν ημερας και νυκτος οι προσκυνουντες το θηριον και την εικονα αυτου και ει τις λαμβανει το χαραγμα του ονοματος αυτου​

(Revelation 14:11 GRK)

And so I provide a LINK to the Liddell Scott Lexicon for G165

A. period of existence​

I. lifetime, life​

2. age, generation​

Can't we at least try to be accurate when we make claims? Just askin'....

God bless,
Rhema

 

[B-A-C]

Mounce -
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
71x: indeterminate as to duration, eternal, everlasting.

NASEC -
αἰώνιος
aiōnios; from 165; eternal:—
eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).

Strong -
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

Thayer -
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
Thayer Definition:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting
Part of Speech: adjective

Google translate which says this is still a common Greek word used today
Search = "google translate greek to english aionios"

eternal

Here are some key verses where "aionios" is used:

1. Matthew 25:46 - "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
2. John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
3. John 10:28 - "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."
4. Romans 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
5. 2 Corinthians 4:18 - "So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal."
6. 1 Timothy 6:12 - "Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses."
7. Titus 1:2 - "In the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time."
8. 1 John 5:11 - "And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son."

 

[Rhema]

Here are some key verses where "aionios" is used:

aionios is not the same word as aion. So what's your point?

Strong's is not a lexicon.
Thayer's lexicon was obsolete before it was printed.
Neither are credible resources for a scholar.

I've been rather disappointed by what Mounce has been doing. Instead of overseeing a world class lexicon, he just put out a simplistic Strong's dictionary. Not much use for non-biased studies.

Rhema

 

[KingJ]

Some Calvinists believe in annihilationism,

I have not ever met one who does not believe in it.

Also it seems the devil and the beast won't be annihilated.

Yes, there are passages mentioning satan, the beast / anti-christ and false prophet, that annihilationist's cannot refute as pointing to eternal punishment.

It is odd that they believe that though. One would think annihilation be a belief that God be merciful to all the wicked. This exclusion throws all that 'God is good and merciful' belief, on its head.

 

[B-A-C]

I have not ever met one who does not believe in it.

The biggest "Calvinist" denomination is the American Baptist church. ( This is a blanket statement, and various churches
vary in how many Calvinist points they accept )

Doctrinal Statement | Verity Baptist Church

Salvation by grace through faith, eternal security, once saved always saved, baptism by immersion, the Deity of Jesus Christ (Jesus is God), the Trinity, Local New Testament Church, Non-Dispensational, the Great Commission, Post-Tribulational, King James Bible Version Only, Autonomy of the Local...

veritybaptist.com

XII. We believe in a literal, physical hell. We believe that the unsaved will spend eternity tormented in hell and the Lake of Fire in the presence of God. We reject the teaching that Hell is simply separation from God. We reject the doctrine of Annihilation which teaches that hell is a temporary place where people are annihilated and cease to exist. We reject the belief that hell is symbolic and not literal.

[Mark 9:43-48, Luke 16:22-24, Revelation 14:10, Revelation 20:10, Revelation 20:14-15]

Bible Baptist Church

biblebaptist.church

H. Hell
We believe in a literal, physical place called hell that Jesus Christ referred to more often than He did heaven. We believe that this place is a place of darkness (Matt 8:12), of unquenchable fire (Matt 3:11-12), of excruciating pain and torment (Luke 16:23-26), of continual death, and yet never being allowed to die (2 Thes 1:7-9). We believe that hell was not created for humans, but rather for the devil and his angels (Matt 25:41), and therefore that humans will only go to hell because they deliberately choose to reject the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross (Rom 2:8,9) which was the only acceptable payment to God for their forgiveness from sin. We believe that the judgement of hellfire is forever (Rev 20:14), and that there is no annihilation of the soul - Those who do not get saved will join the devil (their father, John 8:44) in the "lake of fire" and will be tormented with him forever and ever (Matt 25:46; Rev 14:10; Luke 16:22,23).

The majority of Baptists I know do not believe in annihilation.

The Episcopal/Anglican/CoE could also be considered Calvinst.
However they seem to be split on annihilation. Some believe it, some do not.

Annihilationism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Anglicanism​

[edit]
Although the Church of England has through most of its history been closer to John Calvin's doctrine of conscious continuation of the immortal soul,[<em><a href="Wikipedia:Citation needed - Wikipedia" title="Wikipedia:Citation needed"><span title="This claim needs references to reliable sources. (June 2019)">citation needed</span></a></em>]the doctrine of annihilation of the "wicked" following a judgment day at a literal return of Christ has had a following in the Anglican Communion. In 1945 a report by the Archbishops' Commission on Evangelism, Towards the conversion of England, caused controversy with statements including that "Judgment is the ultimate separation of the evil from the good, with the consequent destruction of all that opposes itself to God's will."<a href="Annihilationism - Wikipedia"><span>[</span>32<span>]</span></a>

 

[KingJ]

The biggest "Calvinist" denomination is the American Baptist church. ( This is a blanket statement, and various churches
vary in how many Calvinist points they accept )

Doctrinal Statement | Verity Baptist Church

Salvation by grace through faith, eternal security, once saved always saved, baptism by immersion, the Deity of Jesus Christ (Jesus is God), the Trinity, Local New Testament Church, Non-Dispensational, the Great Commission, Post-Tribulational, King James Bible Version Only, Autonomy of the Local...

veritybaptist.com

Bible Baptist Church

biblebaptist.church

The majority of Baptists I know do not believe in annihilation.

The Episcopal/Anglican/CoE could also be considered Calvinst.
However they seem to be split on annihilation. Some believe it, some do not.

Annihilationism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

No BAC, this is where we differ. I can agree with three of the beliefs in TULIP. T, I and P. The U and L are partiality.

To be clear, I have not met a 5 point Calvinist that does not believe in annihilationism. I would not nit pick and call those who hold to 1-3 of TULIP Calvinists. A Baptist church is not a Calvinist church. It is a Baptist church. When you attend an actual Calvinist church, you are taught TULIP.

It is ONLY when you believe in TULIP (all 5 points) that it be insanity to also hold to a belief of eternal punishment.

 

[Curtis]

Isa 9:18 For wickedness burns like a fire; it consumes briers and thorns; it kindles the thickets of the forest, and they roll upward in a column of smoke.

"Wickedness" (sin) burns like a "fire"

People who are in hell, and or wind up in the lake of fire their sin is what fuels the fires of hell.

Are there certain sins that are eternal?

What sin is never forgiven?

Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

God draws men to himself by the Holy Spirit who convicts man of his sin.

Rejecting the Holy Spirit's conviction is refusing salvation which will never be forgiven.

Eternal Sin requires an eternal punishment!

Whoever said men in hell stop sinning?

 

[Rhema]

"Wickedness" (sin) burns like a "fire"

People who are in hell, and or wind up in the lake of fire their sin is what fuels the fires of hell.

Hi Curtis,

I'm not sure if you're being literal or metaphorical.
Sin certainly burns up joy.
Sin certainly burns up peace.
Fire consumes until there is nothing left.
The thing that was there ceases to exist.

God bless,
Rhema

 

[Curtis]

Hi Curtis,

I'm not sure if you're being literal or metaphorical.
Sin certainly burns up joy.
Sin certainly burns up peace.
Fire consumes until there is nothing left.
The thing that was there ceases to exist.

God bless,
Rhema

The "fire of sin" originated in Lucifer, and that same "fire" (sin) is what brought his downfall.

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I BRING FORTH A FIRE FROM THE MIDST OF THEE, IT SHALL DEVOUR THEE, and I WILL BRING THEE TO ASHES UPON THE EARTH in the sight of all them that behold thee.

This fire of sin will never be put out and all who find themselves in it will continue to suffer its consequences throughout all eternity.

Sinners in hell never stop sinning which propagates more punishment.

 

[Rhema]

Sinners in hell never stop sinning which propagates more punishment.

The still ongoing problem - that the word hell isn't in the Bible.

And once everything is ashes, what's left to burn?

Because of the multitude of thy sins and the iniquities of thy merchandise, I have profaned thy sacred things; and I will bring fire out of the midst of thee, this shall devour thee; and I will make thee to be ashes upon thy land before all that see thee. And all that know thee among the nations shall groan over thee: thou art gone to destruction, and thou shalt not exist any more.​

(Ezekiel 28:18-19 Brenton)

Sounds like the city of Pompey, although the ACTUAL scripture reads "Tyre" LINK (if one doesn't change the words). So where did you ever get the idea that this was about Satan?

Rhema

 

[Curtis]

If "Annihilation" (ceasing to exist) was true (which it is not) is God going to "recreate" those who have "ceased to exist" so that they will face the judgment day?

​

What are the people in hell (in torment) right now doing who have been there for thousands of years? Do they still exist?

 

[Rhema]

What are the people in hell (in torment) right now doing who have been there for thousands of years? Do they still exist?

There is no one in hell right now (on your timeline). Post the scriptures that say otherwise. PLEASE.

There are no DEAD people alive in torment. Dead people aren't alive. They're dead. That's what scripture says.

... the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.​

(Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV)

You, on the other hand, have dead people knowing torment, in contradiction to the scriptures.

You have bought into the Catholic Hollywood myth, denying scripture. Why would you do that?

If "Annihilation" (ceasing to exist) was true (which it is not) is God going to "recreate" those who have "ceased to exist" so that they will face the judgment day?

How much of your mythology is based on the book of Revelation?

How much of your mythology will fail without that book?

For the book of Revelation was not part of your canon of scripture until the Roman Catholic Bishops ratified it in the year 398 AD. FOUR HUNDRED YEARS after Christ.

Did it take God that long to decide if it was an okay book?

How much of your mythology is based on the idea that the soul is immortal?

Jesus said the soul can die. Immortal things cannot die.

If "Annihilation" (ceasing to exist) was true (which it is not)

Your own scripture says otherwise.

Ceasing to Exist is the actual definition of G622 (ἀπόλλυμι - apollumi).

'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to G622 in gehenna.​

(Matthew 10:28 YLT)

I provide a LINK the Liddell Scott Lexicon for "G622." Please use it, or at least LOOK at it.

A. destroy utterly, kill​

B. perish, die, cease to exist​

Not just the body, but even the soul CAN be annihilated - cease to exist.

I think it is rather important to accept what is actually written, than be led astray by the theological traditions of men.

In the encouragement of truth,
Rhema


And if you have to put the word "recreate" in quotes, meaning that you don't know what you mean, then how am I to know what you mean by "recreate"? Wouldn't the consciousness of the unrepentant dead just be transported into the future - the where and when in which the judgement takes place?

Even your own book says this:

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:​

(Hebrews 9:27 KJV)

If the judgment hasn't happened yet, then why do you have dead people in the torment of judgment now? As if God executes the sentence before it is even made.

 

[Curtis]

How much of your mythology is based on the book of Revelation?

Do you mean the Bible?

 

[Curtis]

There is no one in hell right now

Were are all the people who have died as unbelievers?

... the dead know not any thing,

Physical bodies die and they certainly know nothing, but the spirit of man never dies it only changes location.

 

[Curtis]

Did it take God that long to decide if it was an okay book?

Are you saying the Book of Revelations is not scripture?

 

[Curtis]

Dead people aren't alive.

Where did Jesus go after His death?

 

[Curtis]

Even your own book says this:
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgmentHebrews 9:27 KJV)

What do you mean by "my" Book?
Is not the Bible your Book too or not?