Anyone with experience @ Rapture Ready Forums?

[Blunder_Duck]

I was looking for a forum that focused on Eschatology, end times prophecy, and RR was one of the forums that was first page in the search engine I used.
Thank you for any insights. I did look at the forum and didn't want to misjudge first appearances without asking those who may have more experience than just as a lurker, like myself.

What concerned me was my security alerted me of dangerous scripts.

Blessings.
BD

 

[Romans 8.28]

Hi B_D. I use Microsoft Security Essentials, and Malwarebytes. I just visited the a couple different listings of Rapture Ready, although I didn't register. I didn't receive any alerts concerning dangerous scripts. In fact I have no idea what that would mean.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[Blunder_Duck]

Hi B_D. I use Microsoft Security Essentials, and Malwarebytes. I just visited the a couple different listings of Rapture Ready, although I didn't register. I didn't receive any alerts concerning dangerous scripts. In fact I have no idea what that would mean.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

Nor do I. I use Comodo Dragon antivirus and this little green shield appeared in the browser window when I went to their home page. I clicked and a window dropped down saying the site was trying to load dangerous scripts. I had an option to learn more and I clicked that button but it wasn't all that informative save for letting me know that scrips that weren't well known or had valid certificates , whatever that is, were trying to load. So I opted to depart.

 

[Christ4Ever]

@Blunder_Duck
Though comments have been made of them in the past, as I'm sure Talk Jesus has been discussed there as well.
Pro's and Con's should be up to the individual and what they are seeking.

As far as the security measures go.
Maybe, contacting the overseers of the site might provide you guidance as far as that goes.

There are enough Computer Savy Folks around that assistance for handling aggressive scripting by a site should be able to be handled in a safe manner. Sadly, I am not one of those :-(

Hopefully, you'll receive replies to assist you. However, all I ask is that the conversation stay with Security Issues and not content/management of RR.
Thanks!

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Moderator
Nick
<><

 

[Blunder_Duck]

Security issues wasn't the crux of my query here. Those were an added concern that I found when I went to the site itself.
If anyone would like to discuss management or content and atmosphere at RR forums, please PM me. I'm trying to find a good end times specific site, dedicated to eschatology and end times prophecy.
Thank you to any who may know a great site to visit, or as mentioned, would like to PM me if they know something I should know about RRF. God Bless.

 

[Blunder_Duck]

I would like to amend this thread so as to say publicly, please do not PM me if you are planning to be rude or are Trolling. I've had quite enough of that. This is a place of peace and a community of those who are in Christ. Thank you.

 

[lecoope]

I was looking for a forum that focused on Eschatology, end times prophecy, and RR was one of the forums that was first page in the search engine I used.
Thank you for any insights. I did look at the forum and didn't want to misjudge first appearances without asking those who may have more experience than just as a lurker, like myself.

What concerned me was my security alerted me of dangerous scripts.

Blessings.
BD

Blunder, I have been permanently banned from RR simply because they don't know where the 70th week begins in Revelation. I had the audacity to write that the church has been now for almost 2000 years between the 5th seal and the 6th seal. The leadership there has very thick preconceived glasses and are not open to any kind of teaching aside from what they already believe - of which some is in error. They believe the rapture is in Rev. 4:1 and they are simply very badly mistaken. Any student of the bible can read that verse and know that JOHN was called up.

Next, they would not accept a clear word of God from chapter 5, where John saw the very moment Jesus ascended. He was not in the throne room in chapter 4, but suddenly appeared there in chapter 5. Anyone can read this. And at the moment He appeared there, He sent the Holy Spirit down. Again, anyone can read it. God's purpose there was to establish that Jesus got the book into His hands as soon as He ascended and began right then, breaking the seals. Seal one is the church sent out with the gospel. Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel, but these three were limited to 1/4 the surface of the earth. Again, anyone can read this. The problem is, many read with preconceived glasses which will not allow them to understand anything other than what they believe. They even told me they will explain it all to me on the way up! I do like to browse and read what others are saying.

If you did not know this, over the past few years there has been a huge surge of people switching from a pretrib rapture belief to a post trib or prewrath position. Both are in error. I like to write that GOD is pretrib!

A quote from their site: "Rapture Ready is a traditional Pre-Tribulation Rapture, Pre 7 Seals, Pre 70th week, "
The truth of scripture is that the first seals are historic. If anyone here does not believe this, we can discuss it with scripture.

 

[Beresheet]

I’ve studied the rapture theory pretty much in depth but that has been some time ago. But I will follow Paul’s lead on it , 2nd Thessalonians 2::1 thru 2:12. Pail wrote both 1st Thess and 2nd Thess. Paul realized that after writing 1st Thess that he had confused the people and Paul writes 2nd Thess to clear things up. Listen

2nd 2:1 Now we beseech you brethren, by the coming of our LORD Jesus Christ and by our gathering together unto him. The subject here is Paul is going to tell you just as exactly how our gathering back to Christ is going to happen. Paul is basically begging the people to listen to him so he could tell them just how we gather back to Christ.

2:2. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, NOR BY WORD, NOR BY LETTER AS FROM US, as that the day of Christ is at Hand. What Paul. meant when he said, not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled neither by spirit Nor by word, NOR BY LETTER FROM US. What letter is he talking about from us? 1st Thess 4:17. He knew that the people was thinking that that they were going to fly away up in the sky to meet Christ in the air.

1Thess 4:13 The subject here is, I don’t want you to ignorant where the dead are. Not flying away.

What is meant here. To meet him in the air, is to say we meet him the breath of life body/spiritual body. And that is true. I’m not going to quote it all but you can go there. 1Cor 15:51 again Paul is speaking and what is being said here is this, I show you the true of the mystery, not everyone will die in this flesh body, the ones that are still alive in these flesh bodies at the time the true Christ returns. But in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, those who are still living on earth in these flesh bodies, will be changed into the spiritual body in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump or the seventh trump which is the last trump

The very instant Christ’s foot touches the Mount of Olives, those still in flesh bodies, will be changed into spiritual bodies. That’s all flesh, good bad and ungluy. You would say, why are the evil flesh people changed into spiritual bodies. Cause everyone is going to be judged by God Almighty at that time and you all know that flesh cannot come before God. His brightness would consume a flesh body. That’s why the flesh must be changed into a spiritual body so they can be judged. Being changed into a spiritual body does not mean that they have over come.

Did you know that God is against teaching his people to fly to save their soul. He makes clear in the book of Eze 13:18-23. There again I’m not going to quote the verses but tell you what is being said here by God Almighty Himself. He is saying I’m against those sowing coverings to cover up His out reaching hands to his people. I’m against your lies wherewith yee there hunt the souls to make them fly. , and will let the souls go, even. The souls that ye hunt to make them fly

Eze 13:21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear,and deliver my people out of your Hand, to be hunted: and ye shall know that I am the LORD. So you can see hear that God doesn’t like his people being taught to fly away to save their soul. To show them a different way to salvation.

Paul makes it very clear that the true Christ does not return to earth until, 2nd Thess 2:3 let no man deceive you by any means: FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME, EXCEPT THERE COME A FALLING AWAY FIRST, AND THAT MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, THE SON OF PREDITION. PERDITION MEANS TO PERISH. Thess 2:4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God showing himself that he is God.

The way I get it from Paul is, until you see anti christ sitting in the temple of God, showing himself to be God, the true/real Christ has not returned to earth yet. Paul cleared it up for me how we gather back to Christ and it’s not by flying away out in the air/atmosphere.

God doesn’t wants his children to stay right here on earth to be delivered up by anti christ to make a stand against the false Christ, not run and hide or fly away.

Did you know that if you gain the wisdom and knowledge of, THE SEAL OF GOD, anti christ can not touch a hair on your head. Rev 9:4. This is where God is telling anti christ what he can and can not do when God sends him to earth to deceive all the children that are basically biblically illiterate, Rev 9:&. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; now get this, but ONLY THOSE MEN (WHICH HAVE NOT), THE SEAL OF GOD IN THEIR FOREHEADS/ there brain. When you have the SEAL OF GOD IN YOUR MIND, anti christ cannot touch you. ORDERS FROM GOD ALMIGHTY TO anti christ. DONT YOU EVEN TOUCH MY CHILDREN THAT HAVE THE SEAL OF GOD IN THEIR MINDS. YOU DIG?

 

[lecoope]

I’ve studied the rapture theory pretty much in depth but that has been some time ago. But I will follow Paul’s lead on it , 2nd Thessalonians 2::1 thru 2:12. Pail wrote both 1st Thess and 2nd Thess. Paul realized that after writing 1st Thess that he had confused the people and Paul writes 2nd Thess to clear things up. Listen

2nd 2:1 Now we beseech you brethren, by the coming of our LORD Jesus Christ and by our gathering together unto him. The subject here is Paul is going to tell you just as exactly how our gathering back to Christ is going to happen. Paul is basically begging the people to listen to him so he could tell them just how we gather back to Christ.

2:2. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, NOR BY WORD, NOR BY LETTER AS FROM US, as that the day of Christ is at Hand. What Paul. meant when he said, not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled neither by spirit Nor by word, NOR BY LETTER FROM US. What letter is he talking about from us? 1st Thess 4:17. He knew that the people was thinking that that they were going to fly away up in the sky to meet Christ in the air.

1Thess 4:13 The subject here is, I don’t want you to ignorant where the dead are. Not flying away.

What is meant here. To meet him in the air, is to say we meet him the breath of life body/spiritual body. And that is true. I’m not going to quote it all but you can go there. 1Cor 15:51 again Paul is speaking and what is being said here is this, I show you the true of the mystery, not everyone will die in this flesh body, the ones that are still alive in these flesh bodies at the time the true Christ returns. But in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, those who are still living on earth in these flesh bodies, will be changed into the spiritual body in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump or the seventh trump which is the last trump

The very instant Christ’s foot touches the Mount of Olives, those still in flesh bodies, will be changed into spiritual bodies. That’s all flesh, good bad and ungluy. You would say, why are the evil flesh people changed into spiritual bodies. Cause everyone is going to be judged by God Almighty at that time and you all know that flesh cannot come before God. His brightness would consume a flesh body. That’s why the flesh must be changed into a spiritual body so they can be judged. Being changed into a spiritual body does not mean that they have over come.

Did you know that God is against teaching his people to fly to save their soul. He makes clear in the book of Eze 13:18-23. There again I’m not going to quote the verses but tell you what is being said here by God Almighty Himself. He is saying I’m against those sowing coverings to cover up His out reaching hands to his people. I’m against your lies wherewith yee there hunt the souls to make them fly. , and will let the souls go, even. The souls that ye hunt to make them fly

Eze 13:21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear,and deliver my people out of your Hand, to be hunted: and ye shall know that I am the LORD. So you can see hear that God doesn’t like his people being taught to fly away to save their soul. To show them a different way to salvation.

Paul makes it very clear that the true Christ does not return to earth until, 2nd Thess 2:3 let no man deceive you by any means: FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME, EXCEPT THERE COME A FALLING AWAY FIRST, AND THAT MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, THE SON OF PREDITION. PERDITION MEANS TO PERISH. Thess 2:4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God showing himself that he is God.

The way I get it from Paul is, until you see anti christ sitting in the temple of God, showing himself to be God, the true/real Christ has not returned to earth yet. Paul cleared it up for me how we gather back to Christ and it’s not by flying away out in the air/atmosphere.

God doesn’t wants his children to stay right here on earth to be delivered up by anti christ to make a stand against the false Christ, not run and hide or fly away.

Did you know that if you gain the wisdom and knowledge of, THE SEAL OF GOD, anti christ can not touch a hair on your head. Rev 9:4. This is where God is telling anti christ what he can and can not do when God sends him to earth to deceive all the children that are basically biblically illiterate, Rev 9:&. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; now get this, but ONLY THOSE MEN (WHICH HAVE NOT), THE SEAL OF GOD IN THEIR FOREHEADS/ there brain. When you have the SEAL OF GOD IN YOUR MIND, anti christ cannot touch you. ORDERS FROM GOD ALMIGHTY TO anti christ. DONT YOU EVEN TOUCH MY CHILDREN THAT HAVE THE SEAL OF GOD IN THEIR MINDS. YOU DIG?

Readers, RUN! This writing is denying Paul's rapture, or vastly corrupting it! The truth of Paul's rapture is, WE WILL FLY. When Jesus comes to the air (NOT when His feet touch) the bodies of the dead in Christ will fly up out of their graves and the Spirits of those people will once again join with their bodies and they will be whole forever - with a resurrection body that will never die.

Next, the truth of 2 thes 2 is that the THEME of the passage is the rapture - the gathering. Notice carefully verses 6-8. There is a restraining force preventing the man of sin from being revealed before the correct time. But one day God will remove that restraining force and it will be "taken out of the way." When that happens, THEN the man of sin will be removed. Notice carefully, in verse 3b the man if sin IS revealed, meaning, that restraining force WAS removed in verse 3a. If words mean anything this is absolute truth. And the ONLY thing in verse 3a that would hint of something "taken out of the way" is hidden in Paul's use of the word "apostasia." In other words, the restraining Paul talked of in verses 6-8 is IN this Greek word, Apostasia. It IS the restrainer taken out of the way.

If you research "apo" the first part of this compound word, you will discover it to mean, and PART of a whole group, removed spatially from the entire group. Doesn't that SOUND like the rapture? Of course it does. The other part of that compound word means stationary, as in "not moving." Doesn't Paul teach the the rapture will happen so fast, no one will have time to move? Yes, Paul teaches that.

In other words, Paul teaches the very same thing in 2 thes. that he taught in his first letter: that we are caught up BEFORE God's wrath, but JUST before - a moment before. That places Paul's rapture between the 5th and 6th seal. The final church age martyr is killed (God knows the number), the rapture takes place ending the church age, and the 6th seal is opened, starting the Day of God's wrath.

This writer is also confused on WHO is sealed for their protection: it is the 144,000 JEWS who are sealed. They MISSED the rapture and were left behind. It is very likely that they realized, AFTER the rapture, that Jesus really WAS and IS their Messiah, and they turn to Him then. So God seals them as His firstfruits of Israel.

Finally, this writer has missed it yet again: TWICE God has told us that the saints - those that turn to Jesus AFTER being left behind, WILL BE OVERCOME. There is hardly any way to mis-interpret this. Some, however, simply refuse to believe it.

 

[JesusIs4Me]

Readers, RUN! This writing is denying Paul's rapture, or vastly corrupting it! The truth of Paul's rapture is, WE WILL FLY. When Jesus comes to the air (NOT when His feet touch) the bodies of the dead in Christ will fly up out of their graves and the Spirits of those people will once again join with their bodies and they will be whole forever - with a resurrection body that will never die.

Probably confusing Zechariah 14:1-5 KJV of the return as King of kings with His pre raptured saints to do battle against the world's armies marching unto Jerusalem "with" when He comes as the Bridegroom for the saints abiding in Him at the pre raptured event.

The pre great trib rapture is when God will judge His House first ( 1 Peter 4:17-19 KJV ) for why there will be castaways ( 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 KJV ) and thus to be resurrected later on after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House for being found in iniquity and shall receive stripes per the knowledge for not being ready ( Luke 12:40-49 KJV ) or loving this life more that they did not want to go when the Bridegroom had come ( Luke 14:15-24 KJV & Luke 21:33-36 KJV ).

Next, the truth of 2 thes 2 is that the THEME of the passage is the rapture - the gathering. Notice carefully verses 6-8. There is a restraining force preventing the man of sin from being revealed before the correct time. But one day God will remove that restraining force and it will be "taken out of the way." When that happens, THEN the man of sin will be removed. Notice carefully, in verse 3b the man if sin IS revealed, meaning, that restraining force WAS removed in verse 3a. If words mean anything this is absolute truth. And the ONLY thing in verse 3a that would hint of something "taken out of the way" is hidden in Paul's use of the word "apostasia." In other words, the restraining Paul talked of in verses 6-8 is IN this Greek word, Apostasia. It IS the restrainer taken out of the way.

Like Matthew 24th chapter when His disciples had asked Him 3 questions near the beginning and therefore we need His wisdom to ascertain which answer of His goes to which questions since He was not going in chronological order, so do we need His wisdom to ascertain the 2 events Paul is talking about in 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter for when he is talking about the cause of the falling away from the faith to the event of that son of perdition.

2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

I believe verse 7 is about the cause of the falling away from the faith as that was to happen first BEFORE that man of sin be revealed as stated earlier.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

So I see that underlined portion of verse 3 in verse 7 underlined as that was to happen first before that man of sin, the son of perdition is revealed and so that apostasy is actually before the great tribulation that the Lord will deal with first as God judging His House first since there is a gathering unto Him before that great tribulation when that man of sin be revealed.

Paul cites that the iniquity was already at work in his day in verse 7 as he who lets will let until he be taken out of the way can be seen in the iniquity Paul explains next;

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I discern this is referring to the other calling to seek to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation after a sign of tongues; but it doesn't stop there; it goes on with other numerous callings to receive the Holy Spirit after other sensational signs of confusion in the flesh besides a supernatural tongue that can never come with interpretation because it is not of Him but just gibberish nonsense; like falling backwards or other signs of loss of self control and yet the fruit of the Spirit is temperance. Falling backwards can be found in those who seek to receive the Holy Spirit for a sign of tongues, slain in the spirit, holy laughter movement, Pennsacola Outpouring, Toronto's Blessings, and Ernest Angeley's Healing Crusade. That lie is believing they can receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation and again and again and again ( 1 Timothy 4:1-2 KJV ) and that is why God permit the strong delusion to occur for having that new age mentality of receiving spirits. as in he who let will let until he be taken out of the way; hence the restraining power of the Holy Spirit will cease when believers are inviting other spirits to come in to allow that strong delusion to occur even though the Holy Spirit is still in them.

We can see the rebuke for this iniquity next after verse 12 by reminding believers when they had received the Holy Spirit & the belief of the truth which was at the calling of the gospel and at no other time.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Paul goes on to explain for those he is writing to in dealing with those in that iniquity that he prays that the word of teh Lord will have free course among them that they be delivered from wicked and unreasonable men that have not faith, that no longer walk after the traditions taught of us and are disorderly ( 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7 KJV ) as most of those movement of the spirit are being in confusion which God is not the author of ( 1 Corinthians 14:32-33 KJV & Proverbs 25:26-28 KJV ) but he cites the Lord's commandment to withdraw and repeats it again in how to treat those they are withdrawing from that are in that iniquity, to NOT treat them as the enemy, but admonish them as brothers because His seal is still on them ( 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15 KJV ) as they are called to depart from this iniquity or else be cast into the bed of the great tribulation as God will judge every believer according to his works ( Revelation 2:18-25 KJV ).

Anyway, just wanted to share that verse 7 was about the cause of the falling away from the faith which was supposed to happen first for why God will deal with that first as the Bridegroom before the great tribulation comes when He returns as the King of kings with the pre great trib raptured saints.

If you research "apo" the first part of this compound word, you will discover it to mean, and PART of a whole group, removed spatially from the entire group. Doesn't that SOUND like the rapture? Of course it does. The other part of that compound word means stationary, as in "not moving." Doesn't Paul teach the the rapture will happen so fast, no one will have time to move? Yes, Paul teaches that.

In other words, Paul teaches the very same thing in 2 thes. that he taught in his first letter: that we are caught up BEFORE God's wrath, but JUST before - a moment before. That places Paul's rapture between the 5th and 6th seal. The final church age martyr is killed (God knows the number), the rapture takes place ending the church age, and the 6th seal is opened, starting the Day of God's wrath.

This writer is also confused on WHO is sealed for their protection: it is the 144,000 JEWS who are sealed. They MISSED the rapture and were left behind. It is very likely that they realized, AFTER the rapture, that Jesus really WAS and IS their Messiah, and they turn to Him then. So God seals them as His firstfruits of Israel.

Finally, this writer has missed it yet again: TWICE God has told us that the saints - those that turn to Jesus AFTER being left behind, WILL BE OVERCOME. There is hardly any way to mis-interpret this. Some, however, simply refuse to believe it.

Given how quickly everything is to happen, I do wonder if the seven seals on that scroll has to be all broken before the contents of the scroll is opened and is known. Noting the 3 angels, each with their own message in Revelation 14:6-13 , keep in mind that the details of verse 8 is found in Revelation 18th chapter, we can see how verse 13 ties in with how and why saints were left behind as their works will follow them to the dust as wood, stubble, and hay on that foundations will, but their spirit is saved in that day as Paul mentioned it in 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 KJV of verse 13 and verse 15..

Since the falling away from the faith was to happen first before our gathering unto Him, then that apostasy of verse 7 is referring to our present time starting back in Paul's days on how that has to be dealt with first by the Bridegroom before He comes back as King of kings to deal with that man of sin.

 

[lecoope]

Probably confusing Zechariah 14:1-5 KJV of the return as King of kings with His pre raptured saints to do battle against the world's armies marching unto Jerusalem "with" when He comes as the Bridegroom for the saints abiding in Him at the pre raptured event.

The pre great trib rapture is when God will judge His House first ( 1 Peter 4:17-19 KJV ) for why there will be castaways ( 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 KJV ) and thus to be resurrected later on after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House for being found in iniquity and shall receive stripes per the knowledge for not being ready ( Luke 12:40-49 KJV ) or loving this life more that they did not want to go when the Bridegroom had come ( Luke 14:15-24 KJV & Luke 21:33-36 KJV ).



Like Matthew 24th chapter when His disciples had asked Him 3 questions near the beginning and therefore we need His wisdom to ascertain which answer of His goes to which questions since He was not going in chronological order, so do we need His wisdom to ascertain the 2 events Paul is talking about in 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter for when he is talking about the cause of the falling away from the faith to the event of that son of perdition.

2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

I believe verse 7 is about the cause of the falling away from the faith as that was to happen first BEFORE that man of sin be revealed as stated earlier.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

So I see that underlined portion of verse 3 in verse 7 underlined as that was to happen first before that man of sin, the son of perdition is revealed and so that apostasy is actually before the great tribulation that the Lord will deal with first as God judging His House first since there is a gathering unto Him before that great tribulation when that man of sin be revealed.

Paul cites that the iniquity was already at work in his day in verse 7 as he who lets will let until he be taken out of the way can be seen in the iniquity Paul explains next;

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I discern this is referring to the other calling to seek to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation after a sign of tongues; but it doesn't stop there; it goes on with other numerous callings to receive the Holy Spirit after other sensational signs of confusion in the flesh besides a supernatural tongue that can never come with interpretation because it is not of Him but just gibberish nonsense; like falling backwards or other signs of loss of self control and yet the fruit of the Spirit is temperance. Falling backwards can be found in those who seek to receive the Holy Spirit for a sign of tongues, slain in the spirit, holy laughter movement, Pennsacola Outpouring, Toronto's Blessings, and Ernest Angeley's Healing Crusade. That lie is believing they can receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation and again and again and again ( 1 Timothy 4:1-2 KJV ) and that is why God permit the strong delusion to occur for having that new age mentality of receiving spirits. as in he who let will let until he be taken out of the way; hence the restraining power of the Holy Spirit will cease when believers are inviting other spirits to come in to allow that strong delusion to occur even though the Holy Spirit is still in them.

We can see the rebuke for this iniquity next after verse 12 by reminding believers when they had received the Holy Spirit & the belief of the truth which was at the calling of the gospel and at no other time.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Paul goes on to explain for those he is writing to in dealing with those in that iniquity that he prays that the word of teh Lord will have free course among them that they be delivered from wicked and unreasonable men that have not faith, that no longer walk after the traditions taught of us and are disorderly ( 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7 KJV ) as most of those movement of the spirit are being in confusion which God is not the author of ( 1 Corinthians 14:32-33 KJV & Proverbs 25:26-28 KJV ) but he cites the Lord's commandment to withdraw and repeats it again in how to treat those they are withdrawing from that are in that iniquity, to NOT treat them as the enemy, but admonish them as brothers because His seal is still on them ( 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15 KJV ) as they are called to depart from this iniquity or else be cast into the bed of the great tribulation as God will judge every believer according to his works ( Revelation 2:18-25 KJV ).

Anyway, just wanted to share that verse 7 was about the cause of the falling away from the faith which was supposed to happen first for why God will deal with that first as the Bridegroom before the great tribulation comes when He returns as the King of kings with the pre great trib raptured saints.



Given how quickly everything is to happen, I do wonder if the seven seals on that scroll has to be all broken before the contents of the scroll is opened and is known. Noting the 3 angels, each with their own message in Revelation 14:6-13 , keep in mind that the details of verse 8 is found in Revelation 18th chapter, we can see how verse 13 ties in with how and why saints were left behind as their works will follow them to the dust as wood, stubble, and hay on that foundations will, but their spirit is saved in that day as Paul mentioned it in 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 KJV of verse 13 and verse 15..

Since the falling away from the faith was to happen first before our gathering unto Him, then that apostasy of verse 7 is referring to our present time starting back in Paul's days on how that has to be dealt with first by the Bridegroom before He comes back as King of kings to deal with that man of sin.

You missed the point: There is no "falling away!" That was a very poor translation. The first several translations in to English have it as a departing. Rather than a falling away, Paul is talking about a catching away, as the church is "taken out of the way" so the man of sin can be revealed. "Apo" as a part of a whole removed (taken out of the way) from the entire whole - so fast that those left behind appear as stationary.

 

[JesusIs4Me]

You missed the point: There is no "falling away!" That was a very poor translation. The first several translations in to English have it as a departing. Rather than a falling away, Paul is talking about a catching away, as the church is "taken out of the way" so the man of sin can be revealed. "Apo" as a part of a whole removed (taken out of the way) from the entire whole - so fast that those left behind appear as stationary.

Can you explain the prophesy in 1 Timothy 4:1-2 then?

 

[Beresheet]

Don’t have much time this morning to expand upon the comments to my post. Let start off saying, when one is reading someone’s work and your trying to understand the message being taught, you always identify the subject fist. You must know the subject before you will understand what they are talking about.

Paul is scribing this book, 1 Thess 4:13 thru17. Paul knows God’s word so well that he could teach on three levels. Any serious student of the word can understand Paul’s 1st level of teaching and there are those savvy students that like to dig a little deeper and they can understand Paul’s 2nd level of teaching on a subject. But. not many are able to grasp Paul’s 3rd level ot teaching. Paul looses many when he teaches on that 3rd level.

My friends, what is the subject here in these verses of 1st Thess 13 thru 17? If you are having trouble identifying the subject here, take your Bible to your local high school English grammar teacher and have them point out the subject here in these verses. YOU CAN NOT INSERT YOUR OWN SUBJECT IN SOMEONE ELSES WRITINGS. That is not allowed in English grammar.

I’ll save you a trip to your local high school and point the subject out too those that are having trouble identifying the subject. Paul was just the scribe here, God was the real author of all the word. The subject here is very easy to pick out and the subject is set or established in 1st Thess 4:13. This is the subject expounded upon. Paul doesn’t want you to BE IGNORANT OF WHERE THOSE THAT ARE ASLEEP/DEAD ARE. Where those that have died in these flesh bodies, that you don’t sorrow over that loved one, like the others which have no hope

Who are those which have no hope? The non believers, the ignorant, biblically illiterate people. Without a good understanding in Gods word, you wouldn’t have much hope.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. What is being said here is, if you Jesus died and rose from the dead, so does everyone else. Those that have died in these flesh body are already with him and are going to return with Christ in that Great army at the last Trump, which is the Seventh Trump.

Those that have already gone through the death of this flesh body are not in that hole in the ground. The old flesh body is in the ground but not the soul/spirit. God wouldn’t leave the children He loves in a cold earth grave. That doesn’t even make sense. Love is not cold my friends. This verse in 2nd Cor should wise you up on where those that sleep/have died in the flesh are. 2nd Cor 5:8 We are confident I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. Where did your soul come from my friends. It’s returns to the one who gave it, GOD ALMIGHTY.

Those that have died in the flesh body are with the Lord in a twinkling of an eye the moment this flesh body ceases to live. Their not in a hole in the ground. They are with the Father instantly the moment the body dies. And the saints of those who have fallen asleep/died will return in that great army with Christ on the SEVENTH TRUMP. Out of time my friends must get to work.

 

[lecoope]

Can you explain the prophesy in 1 Timothy 4:1-2 then?

There are always some "falling away" or turning away from God. But at the same time, others come. The church is growing, not shrinking. Even after the pretrib rapture, when ALL that are ready are caught up, even then, more immediately turn to Christ, seeing that they missed the rapture.

 

[JesusIs4Me]

There are always some "falling away" or turning away from God. But at the same time, others come. The church is growing, not shrinking. Even after the pretrib rapture, when ALL that are ready are caught up, even then, more immediately turn to Christ, seeing that they missed the rapture.

Luke 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

That question is a bit ominous in how few of the many saved believers will be found abiding in Him in these latter days as His disciples.

Then out of that group of disciples, some will not consider the cost of discipleship in that they are to leave when the Bridegroom comes.

Luke 21:33-36 KJV has a warning about how the cares of this life can be a snare to believers on the earth for why believers are to pray that they may NOT be overcharged with the cares of this life to NOT WANT to leave when the Bridegroom comes.

It seems ridiculous that any believer would want to stay behind for the everyday cares of life or their loved ones but that was the point of the parable in Luke 14:15-24 KJV for why they were excusing themselves to attend the King's Supper.

Then Jesus expounded on that parable to the multitude about the cost of discipleship in being willing to leave their lives and their loved ones behind when the Bridegroom comes, otherwise, they are castaways in that respect as well in Luke 14:25-33 KJV

Then you have Jesus talking about how really bad it will be in these latter days because of false prophets coming into the churches by broadening the way ( Matthew 7:13-14 KJV ) in coming to God the Father by going around the Son ( John 14:6 KJV& John 10:1 KJV ) The fruit of the false prophet is being ecumenical in nature as gathering grapes of thorns and figs of thistles in Matthew 7:15-17 KJV as the modified Nice e creed of 381 A.D. had united the churches to accept the unBiblical practice of worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son when the only way to come to God the Father is by way of the Son in worship ( John 14:6 KJV again ) by only honoring the Son in worship in order to honor the Father by ( John 5:22-23 KJV )

From that broadening of the way has saved believers in various movements of the spirit ( assuming in error that it was the Holy Spirit they were receiving after a sign ) judging other movements of the spirit as not of God. Although those who believe they had received the Holy Spirit apart from salvation by a sign of tongues, they judge the "holy laughter" movement or slain in the spirit as not of Him; even those who proclaim feeling His Presence in the worship place as receiving Him in that manner would attest to those movements of the spirit as not of Him, but yet some have shared testimonies of how those that oppose the slain in the spirit phenomenon would come forward to stop it and yet fall victim to it themselves.

As much as they judge one movement from another, they forget they were not to believe every spirit but test them ( 1 John 4:1-4 KJV ) by knowing the Holy Spirit has been in us since salvation ( John 14:16-17 KJV & 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15 KJV ) for why that phenomenon that happened apart from salvation was not nor could it ever be the Holy Spirit. Indeed, they can receive the supernatural tongue found in the occult ( Isaiah 8:19 KJV ) for why many believe tongues can be used for private use, ignoring the prophesy for what tongues were for; of other men's lips to speak unto the people in 1 Corinthians 14:20-21 KJV and not to serve as a sign to already saved believers for anything at all ( 1 Corinthians 14:22 KJV )

On this point, what they deem as not of God, they all share teh same phenomenon for why it is of the evil tree when it is bearing evil fruits for which they judge certain movements of the spirit as not of Him for so they can also judge that phenomenon that they share in lighter degrees as not of Him at all too as no evil tree can produce a good fruit and no good tree can produce an evil fruit ( Matthew 7:18-20 KJV ) . So in spite of the many good things they claim coming out of these movements of the spirit, they are workers of iniquity and shall be left behind as declared in Matthew 7:21-23 KJV as that is why by that iniquity is why many saved believers, as in houses, are falling down in Matthew 7:24-27 KJV for not heeding His words on the only way to approach God the Father by.

To avoid this iniquity, which also includes thinking you are feeling His Presence in the worship place, even at "holy communion" , or His Presence is in the sacraments to receive Him again ( 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 KJV & 2 Corinthians 13:5 KJV ) as they would make that excuse of eating and drinking in His Presence at communion per Luke 13:26 KJV all goes against the faith in Jesus Christ being in us always ( Matthew 28:20 KJV ) and the line of discernment for where the spirit of the antichrist is which is outside of us as per 1 John 4:3-4 KJV .... this is why in Luke 13:24 is the solution by focusing on the Son, the Bridegroom, in living that reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ in fellowship, prayer, and especially worship so that by leaning on Him for help to keep yoru eyes on the Bridegroom all the time, the virgin brides are ready to go when He comes; Luke 13:25-30 KJV .

So Jesus prophesied a pretty bleak picture for teh faithful in these latter days and I can see why because of the errant Nicene creed and the unBiblical practices and a few errant hymnals for worships can submit believers into thinking they can call for the Holy Spirit to come and fall on them in worship when contrariwise, He is in us as promised since our salvation ( John 14:16-17 KJV again ) as He dwells in us to point us to focus on the Son in worship to testify of the Son ( John 15:26 KJV ) in seeking the glory of the Son ( John 16:14 KJV ) and by the Son, glorify God the Father ( Philippians 2:5-11 KJV & John 13:31-32 KJV ) There is no other way to worship God the Father by in order to avoid the spirits of the antichrist paying the assembly a visit with signs to lure believers away from worshiping the Son into chasing after them to receive by those signs again and again and again; whereby the spirits earned the title as the antichrists as "instead of Christ Jesus"..

It woudl explain why the despensation of the gospel went back to the Jews, the 144,000 witnesses for teh duration of the great tribulation because of the falling away from the faith signals the end of the times of the Gentiles which is why God is judging His House first at the pre great trib rapture event as the Bridegroom before He comes back as the King of kings to judge the world at the end of the great tribulation.

 

[lecoope]

Luke 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

That question is a bit ominous in how few of the many saved believers will be found abiding in Him in these latter days as His disciples.

Then out of that group of disciples, some will not consider the cost of discipleship in that they are to leave when the Bridegroom comes.

Luke 21:33-36 KJV has a warning about how the cares of this life can be a snare to believers on the earth for why believers are to pray that they may NOT be overcharged with the cares of this life to NOT WANT to leave when the Bridegroom comes.

It seems ridiculous that any believer would want to stay behind for the everyday cares of life or their loved ones but that was the point of the parable in Luke 14:15-24 KJV for why they were excusing themselves to attend the King's Supper.

Then Jesus expounded on that parable to the multitude about the cost of discipleship in being willing to leave their lives and their loved ones behind when the Bridegroom comes, otherwise, they are castaways in that respect as well in Luke 14:25-33 KJV

Then you have Jesus talking about how really bad it will be in these latter days because of false prophets coming into the churches by broadening the way ( Matthew 7:13-14 KJV ) in coming to God the Father by going around the Son ( John 14:6 KJV& John 10:1 KJV ) The fruit of the false prophet is being ecumenical in nature as gathering grapes of thorns and figs of thistles in Matthew 7:15-17 KJV as the modified Nice e creed of 381 A.D. had united the churches to accept the unBiblical practice of worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son when the only way to come to God the Father is by way of the Son in worship ( John 14:6 KJV again ) by only honoring the Son in worship in order to honor the Father by ( John 5:22-23 KJV )

From that broadening of the way has saved believers in various movements of the spirit ( assuming in error that it was the Holy Spirit they were receiving after a sign ) judging other movements of the spirit as not of God. Although those who believe they had received the Holy Spirit apart from salvation by a sign of tongues, they judge the "holy laughter" movement or slain in the spirit as not of Him; even those who proclaim feeling His Presence in the worship place as receiving Him in that manner would attest to those movements of the spirit as not of Him, but yet some have shared testimonies of how those that oppose the slain in the spirit phenomenon would come forward to stop it and yet fall victim to it themselves.

As much as they judge one movement from another, they forget they were not to believe every spirit but test them ( 1 John 4:1-4 KJV ) by knowing the Holy Spirit has been in us since salvation ( John 14:16-17 KJV & 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15 KJV ) for why that phenomenon that happened apart from salvation was not nor could it ever be the Holy Spirit. Indeed, they can receive the supernatural tongue found in the occult ( Isaiah 8:19 KJV ) for why many believe tongues can be used for private use, ignoring the prophesy for what tongues were for; of other men's lips to speak unto the people in 1 Corinthians 14:20-21 KJV and not to serve as a sign to already saved believers for anything at all ( 1 Corinthians 14:22 KJV )

On this point, what they deem as not of God, they all share teh same phenomenon for why it is of the evil tree when it is bearing evil fruits for which they judge certain movements of the spirit as not of Him for so they can also judge that phenomenon that they share in lighter degrees as not of Him at all too as no evil tree can produce a good fruit and no good tree can produce an evil fruit ( Matthew 7:18-20 KJV ) . So in spite of the many good things they claim coming out of these movements of the spirit, they are workers of iniquity and shall be left behind as declared in Matthew 7:21-23 KJV as that is why by that iniquity is why many saved believers, as in houses, are falling down in Matthew 7:24-27 KJV for not heeding His words on the only way to approach God the Father by.

To avoid this iniquity, which also includes thinking you are feeling His Presence in the worship place, even at "holy communion" , or His Presence is in the sacraments to receive Him again ( 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 KJV & 2 Corinthians 13:5 KJV ) as they would make that excuse of eating and drinking in His Presence at communion per Luke 13:26 KJV all goes against the faith in Jesus Christ being in us always ( Matthew 28:20 KJV ) and the line of discernment for where the spirit of the antichrist is which is outside of us as per 1 John 4:3-4 KJV .... this is why in Luke 13:24 is the solution by focusing on the Son, the Bridegroom, in living that reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ in fellowship, prayer, and especially worship so that by leaning on Him for help to keep yoru eyes on the Bridegroom all the time, the virgin brides are ready to go when He comes; Luke 13:25-30 KJV .

So Jesus prophesied a pretty bleak picture for teh faithful in these latter days and I can see why because of the errant Nicene creed and the unBiblical practices and a few errant hymnals for worships can submit believers into thinking they can call for the Holy Spirit to come and fall on them in worship when contrariwise, He is in us as promised since our salvation ( John 14:16-17 KJV again ) as He dwells in us to point us to focus on the Son in worship to testify of the Son ( John 15:26 KJV ) in seeking the glory of the Son ( John 16:14 KJV ) and by the Son, glorify God the Father ( Philippians 2:5-11 KJV & John 13:31-32 KJV ) There is no other way to worship God the Father by in order to avoid the spirits of the antichrist paying the assembly a visit with signs to lure believers away from worshiping the Son into chasing after them to receive by those signs again and again and again; whereby the spirits earned the title as the antichrists as "instead of Christ Jesus"..

It woudl explain why the despensation of the gospel went back to the Jews, the 144,000 witnesses for teh duration of the great tribulation because of the falling away from the faith signals the end of the times of the Gentiles which is why God is judging His House first at the pre great trib rapture event as the Bridegroom before He comes back as the King of kings to judge the world at the end of the great tribulation.

That was a very long post just to tell us that you don't know much about the Holy Spirit. I guess you have not noticed the difference in the book of Acts of the Holy Spirit "on" or "upon" versus the Holy Spirit within as Paul has showed us over and over. There IS the Holy Spirit within, as our seal and guarantee of being born again. We get the Holy Spirit within the moment our old spirit man is put to death and our new spirit man is created. But AFTER that - after a person is born again and received the Holy Spirit within, they can receive the Holy Spirit UPON - what Luke called the baptism in the Holy Spirit. If you make fun of this experience, God will make sure you don't ever receive it. It is just not nice to make fun of the Holy Spirit. He takes it personally. I guess you have just never noticed that people that receive this mighty gift of the Holy Spirit upon tend to worship and praise God much more that those that have not received. You should know by now, devils do NOT praise God! Neither do they worship Him. When people begin worshiping God, devils tend to run away.

God has the church to work through now, and for witnesses. After the pretrib rapture of the church, He will then have the 144,000 (although there is NOTHING written as to what they will do for the first half of the week). Will they testify? We can only guess. They are caught up to heaven around the midpoint of the week, but just before they leave, God sends the two witnesses who will testify for most of the last half of the week.

It is not therefore a "falling away" that God seals the 144,000: it is because the pretrib rapture took all those whom God could work through, to heaven. A catching away or a departing is a better translation of the Greek word, "apostasia."

Have you really thought about the 2 Thes 2 passage? People who had received Paul's teaching in person, then received his first letter, both teaching them that the rapture would come before the Day of the Lord, But they somehow learned or heard that the Day of the Lord had come and they were now IN IT. Paul's argument is not to just tell them that the rapture had not come, but rather to show them how anyone can know for sure that the Day of the Lord had come. He said that FIRST their mist come the apostasia or departing - and then they would see the man of sin revealed.

Now, if Paul had meant a departing from the faith, how in the world would anyone know if it was ENOUGH - that enough had departed to fit what Paul was saying? And in that day, how would they know if some had departed from other fellowships in other cities? On the other hand, if the rapture (a very significant departing) took place, all who were left behind would KNOW something very dramatic and significant had happened. (They would know they were left behind!).

Then Paul had to write those words: "and now you know...." as if he had JUST TOLD THEM.... Have you ever considered why Paul wrote those words, and what it was that he had just told them - but told them in a way they could miss - so he had to emphasize it?

 

[JesusIs4Me]

That was a very long post just to tell us that you don't know much about the Holy Spirit.

John 14:16-17 has Jesus saying we will know the Hoy Spirit by Him dwelling within us; and the testing of spirits has the line of discernment being what is outside of us as the spirit of the antichrist; 1 John 4:1-4 that is teh difference between the Holy Spirit in teh Temple under the Old Covenant to our bodies being the temple of the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant. The Holy Spirit will not be representing the Old Covenant any more, but of the Son by dwelling in us forever.

If you blur the line of discernment of 1 John 4:4, then you can never test the spirits to know the difference between the indwelling Holy Ghost and that which is the spirit of the antichrist which is in the world so that by knowing He is in you, you can know that spirit coming over you apart from salvation CANNOT be the Holy Spirit..

I guess you have not noticed the difference in the book of Acts of the Holy Spirit "on" or "upon" versus the Holy Spirit within as Paul has showed us over and over.

The problem with saved believers experiencing this "extra" phenomenon apart from salvation is that they read it into the Book of Acts while ignoring the plain reproofs of such notions in the epistles to the churches as well as Jesus's own words.

There is no other drink of the One Spirit, but because some claim that extra phenomenon as being of Him, they separate from the body of believers that maintain the tradition taught of us.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

That was from the chapter about the manifestations of the Spirit that is to rofit the body withal; not individually as some claims that extra phenomenon bringing tongues are for private use, and yet in that same chapter is the reproof to that too.

1 Corinthians 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

The idea that tongues for private use can be for so many different purposes to the benefit of the believer like self edification; giving of thanks, worship, and the switch mode for the Holy Spirit to utter His intercessions to God is by itself confusing when it does not come with interpretation for the believe to KNOW what that tongue is really doing for private use and yet God is not the author of. 1 Corinthians 14:32-33 KJV .

So it goes back to defending the faith in Jesus Christ; can you receive Jesus Christ again? No. Then neither can you receive the Holy Spirit again as Paul warned plainly here.

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

So in according to our faith, we either say He is in us and that extra phenomenon is not of Him or we are departing from faith in giving heed to seducing spirits & doctrines of devils because , guess what? It doesn't stop there. Some if not many believers, after getting that second phenomenon with tongues, are experiencing receiving a spirit again and again after other signs of confusion in the flesh. What does Jesus has to say to that?

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

The whole point of verses 11-13 is that once you had received the Holy Spirit as promised at your salvation for knocking at the door of Jesus Christ, you will never ask for the Holy Spirit ever again BECAUSE that would make the father look evil as if He did not give you the Holy Spirit the first time when you were saved.

So you are reading the Book of Acts wrong for reading your experiences into it because what you claim does not stand against the warning given in the epistles in order to keep the faith nor can it stand against Jesus's own words when receiving the Holy Spirit "again" would make the Father look evil as if He did not give you the Holy Spirit the first time at your salvation.

If you want to discuss what the Book of Acts is actually saying... feel free to do so, but you have to admit that the second phenomenon does not align with scripture in the epistles to the churches to discern false teachings & false spirits by.

 

[lecoope]

John 14:16-17 has Jesus saying we will know the Hoy Spirit by Him dwelling within us; and the testing of spirits has the line of discernment being what is outside of us as the spirit of the antichrist; 1 John 4:1-4 that is teh difference between the Holy Spirit in teh Temple under the Old Covenant to our bodies being the temple of the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant. The Holy Spirit will not be representing the Old Covenant any more, but of the Son by dwelling in us forever.

If you blur the line of discernment of 1 John 4:4, then you can never test the spirits to know the difference between the indwelling Holy Ghost and that which is the spirit of the antichrist which is in the world so that by knowing He is in you, you can know that spirit coming over you apart from salvation CANNOT be the Holy Spirit..



The problem with saved believers experiencing this "extra" phenomenon apart from salvation is that they read it into the Book of Acts while ignoring the plain reproofs of such notions in the epistles to the churches as well as Jesus's own words.

There is no other drink of the One Spirit, but because some claim that extra phenomenon as being of Him, they separate from the body of believers that maintain the tradition taught of us.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

That was from the chapter about the manifestations of the Spirit that is to rofit the body withal; not individually as some claims that extra phenomenon bringing tongues are for private use, and yet in that same chapter is the reproof to that too.

1 Corinthians 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

The idea that tongues for private use can be for so many different purposes to the benefit of the believer like self edification; giving of thanks, worship, and the switch mode for the Holy Spirit to utter His intercessions to God is by itself confusing when it does not come with interpretation for the believe to KNOW what that tongue is really doing for private use and yet God is not the author of. 1 Corinthians 14:32-33 KJV .

So it goes back to defending the faith in Jesus Christ; can you receive Jesus Christ again? No. Then neither can you receive the Holy Spirit again as Paul warned plainly here.

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

So in according to our faith, we either say He is in us and that extra phenomenon is not of Him or we are departing from faith in giving heed to seducing spirits & doctrines of devils because , guess what? It doesn't stop there. Some if not many believers, after getting that second phenomenon with tongues, are experiencing receiving a spirit again and again after other signs of confusion in the flesh. What does Jesus has to say to that?

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

The whole point of verses 11-13 is that once you had received the Holy Spirit as promised at your salvation for knocking at the door of Jesus Christ, you will never ask for the Holy Spirit ever again BECAUSE that would make the father look evil as if He did not give you the Holy Spirit the first time when you were saved.

So you are reading the Book of Acts wrong for reading your experiences into it because what you claim does not stand against the warning given in the epistles in order to keep the faith nor can it stand against Jesus's own words when receiving the Holy Spirit "again" would make the Father look evil as if He did not give you the Holy Spirit the first time at your salvation.

If you want to discuss what the Book of Acts is actually saying... feel free to do so, but you have to admit that the second phenomenon does not align with scripture in the epistles to the churches to discern false teachings & false spirits by.

I can say this for sure: as long as you believe as you do, God will make sure you never receive this mighty baptism. Why would you deny something so clearly shown in scripture? Perhaps you, as a famous Baptist TV preacher said: "you can't use the book of Acts for doctrine!" Well, he will never receive this blessing either. OF COURSE we can use every book in the bible for doctrine! What a silly answer he gave. Obviously, you can't ask the same question Paul asked, because you don't think like Paul thought: "Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed?"

Sorry, but you are mistaken: the baptism with the Holy Spirit fits EVERY scripture because it comes from God and is His plan for every believer. However, this is not the thread to get into this discussion.

What you are missing is that the Holy Spirit UPON is the anointing - the very same anointing Jesus received: "how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. " Jesus planned on us walking with this SAME anointing by the SAME Holy Spirit.

 

[JesusIs4Me]

I can say this for sure: as long as you believe as you do, God will make sure you never receive this mighty baptism.

I had already received Him as promised at the calling of the gospel when I had first come to & believed in Jesus Christ. Jesus had promised that after coming to & beleiving in Him, I will never hunger nor thirst any more to be filled; John 6:35 this always Spirit-filled is the testimony of my having been saved so I can tell others that Jesus Christ is my Saviour. Matthew 9:17 KJV

Why would you deny something so clearly shown in scripture? ................. Obviously, you can't ask the same question Paul asked, because you don't think like Paul thought: "Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed?"

That paraphrased reference is a good example for why you are misreading Paul's words in scripture. Let us read that together as I hope the Lord will cause the increase in seeing your error in that reading.

Acts 19:1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

Paul did not know what kind of disciples, but he knew they were some kind of a disciple. That is why he had asked the question next.

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Sensing they were not disciples of Jesus Christ was why Paul asked the question of what water baptism they were under.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Under the water baptism of John the Baptist's; thus they were disciples of John the Baptist's.

If you do not believe that, then explain why Paul had to tell them about Whom John the Baptist was preaching about and that was Jesus Christ the Lord in the following verse below.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

So Paul had to preach Jesus Christ to them before they believed and wanted to get baptized in Jesus Christ's name. That means they were unbelievers BEFORE Paul had met them

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7 And all the men were about twelve.

So being on the road, these new believers at their salvation, spoke in tongues as a witness to those around them.

So you can't use that reference any more as proof that a believer can receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation when these "disciples" were disciples of John the baptist's and were not believers in Jesus Christ until Paul told them about Him before they believed and got water baptized in His name.

Sorry, but you are mistaken: the baptism with the Holy Spirit fits EVERY scripture because it comes from God and is His plan for every believer. However, this is not the thread to get into this discussion.

What you are missing is that the Holy Spirit UPON is the anointing - the very same anointing Jesus received: "how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. " Jesus planned on us walking with this SAME anointing by the SAME Holy Spirit.

You have yet to address the scripture that reproves otherwise from my earlier post whereas I did address your paraphrased reference for how you were reading and applying His words wrong in the Book of Acts.

If you wish to use another reference, you may do so, but I am familiar with most of them to know you are reading them wrong too since obviously scripture cannot go against scripture and what I have shared with you in my earlier posts reproves that extra phenomenon as not of Him at all and it is a departure from the faith in Jesus Christ as you are giving another calling and thus another gospel for already saved believers to seek after, moving away from their rest in Jesus Christ when they were saved at the calling of the gospel.

 

[lecoope]

I had already received Him as promised at the calling of the gospel when I had first come to & believed in Jesus Christ. Jesus had promised that after coming to & beleiving in Him, I will never hunger nor thirst any more to be filled; John 6:35 this always Spirit-filled is the testimony of my having been saved so I can tell others that Jesus Christ is my Saviour. Matthew 9:17 KJV



That paraphrased reference is a good example for why you are misreading Paul's words in scripture. Let us read that together as I hope the Lord will cause the increase in seeing your error in that reading.

Acts 19:1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

Paul did not know what kind of disciples, but he knew they were some kind of a disciple. That is why he had asked the question next.

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Sensing they were not disciples of Jesus Christ was why Paul asked the question of what water baptism they were under.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Under the water baptism of John the Baptist's; thus they were disciples of John the Baptist's.

If you do not believe that, then explain why Paul had to tell them about Whom John the Baptist was preaching about and that was Jesus Christ the Lord in the following verse below.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

So Paul had to preach Jesus Christ to them before they believed and wanted to get baptized in Jesus Christ's name. That means they were unbelievers BEFORE Paul had met them

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7 And all the men were about twelve.

So being on the road, these new believers at their salvation, spoke in tongues as a witness to those around them.

So you can't use that reference any more as proof that a believer can receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation when these "disciples" were disciples of John the baptist's and were not believers in Jesus Christ until Paul told them about Him before they believed and got water baptized in His name.



You have yet to address the scripture that reproves otherwise from my earlier post whereas I did address your paraphrased reference for how you were reading and applying His words wrong in the Book of Acts.

If you wish to use another reference, you may do so, but I am familiar with most of them to know you are reading them wrong too since obviously scripture cannot go against scripture and what I have shared with you in my earlier posts reproves that extra phenomenon as not of Him at all and it is a departure from the faith in Jesus Christ as you are giving another calling and thus another gospel for already saved believers to seek after, moving away from their rest in Jesus Christ when they were saved at the calling of the gospel.

You are mistaken: Paul ASSUMED they were followers of Jesus Christ. It was only after talking with them that he discovered they did not know Christ. So what did He do? He TAUGHT them about Christ. They got born again. Then they were baptized in water, proving they were born again. And then, AFTER that, they received the mighty baptism of the Holy Spirit - the Holy Spirit upon. They already HAD the Holy Spirit within - the moment they believed and confessed Jesus. Don't take my word for it - go and look: the Holy Spirit came UPON them. In other words, they received the anointing to minister. Who is it then that is reading this incorrectly? Luke was very careful to show us this was the Holy Spirit UPON and it was after they were born again. We see the same thing in Acts 8. The fact is, Paul, thinking they were believers asked them if they had received the Holy Spirit SINCE (meaning after) they had believed. I say it again: you would not ask anyone this question because you don't believe what Paul believed. You are correct, before Paul met them, they were just good repentant Jews that had not yet heard of Jesus.

If you look closely at Acts 8, Luke gives us a peek into the minds of the church leaders in Jerusalem: they heard that Samaria had received the gospel. What was their responce? They sent Peter and John. For what purpose? So they could receive the Holy Spirit. WAIT! The Holy Spirit within? No, they already received the Holy Spirit within when they believed Philip's teaching / preaching on Jesus. Luke proves this because they were water baptized.

16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Note carefully: the belived and were water baptized - proving they were born again. So why send Peter and John? Very simple: they knew Philip was great and getting people born again, but was not gifted to get people filled with the Holy Spirit (or baptized in the Holy Spirit). So hands were laid on, and they received. What" The Holy Spirit within? No, they received the Holy Spirit UPON.

I have no doubt you have the Holy Spirit within. You imagine that is all there is, but the book of Acts shows us something different: there IS an experience of the Holy Spirit UPON - as the anointing. I challenge you to look up "spirit upon" and see how many times in the Old Testament the Holy Spirit came upon people. Luke wrote, "“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me..." This is the anointing. John confirms this: "“I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. " In Acts 1 Luke wrote: "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; " Note carefully, this is not a seal or a guarantee or anything concerning the Holy Spirit WITHIN: no, this is for POWER, not for salvation. This is two different works of the Holy Spirit for two separate purposes.

In Acts 10 Luke wrote, "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. " In Acts 11, Peter confirms this: "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. "

You see, I disagree with you for you are too late: I have already received this mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit. I disagree with you because I see this mighty baptism written clearly in the word of God. If you don't WANT this free gift - God will not force you to get it!