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Are drunkards saved?

Discussion in 'Bible Chat' started by Dave M, Jun 18, 2017.

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  1. can you be a saved by saying "I believe" or "I have faith" but you are not obedient at all, you are a drunkard and also sexual immoral. I ask this question because I truly do not know the answer, (I would not put it to the test either), but I see this very scenario often in today's world. Doesn't true faith produce obedience? do you really believe if you keep living like that?? is the real question I think. We also have scripture flat out tells us that these people will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

    1 Corinthians 6:10
    or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people--none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God.


    I just see this as the prime example in today's america those people who say they are Christians. Heck I was one of them for most of my life . SO I just wonder
     
  2. this really helped drive it home for me maybe it will help someone else also


    .a person who claims to be a Christian but yet never bears fruit and continues in a habitual life of sin, may not, in fact, be a Christian. (Indeed, Scripture says fornicators will not enter the kingdom of God, refering to those who live a lifestyle marked by this pattern of sin (1 Cor. 6:9).) Obviously, all Christians sin while here on earth, but the issue is one of continuing to practice sin in such a way that it suggests an unchanged (unsaved) heart.

    1John 3:7-9 puts it this way:

    Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God

    Can someone continue in sin and still be saved? | Verse By Verse Ministry International
     
  3. @Dave M

    The answer, of course, is in accord with what is a person's heart. God is looking at our heart. What is in there is what we have put in there or what we have allowed to be put in there.

    There is a point of no return for the person who goes against God when he knows better. King Saul provides us an example of a man anointed by God when first he was to become king of Israel. At first he was humble, but he took something in or allowed something to come into his heart. The man of God, Samuel, who had anointed Saul at the first recognized Saul's errors, but even he did not understand that God had rejected Saul as king, until God said so in so many words.

    When a person first hears God call and comes to a place of repentance, he may be very sincere, but as he walks out into his old ways among his old friends the test comes on him. Where does he go from there?

    The following parable illustrates what happens to people when they hear from God. They hear His voice. They hear His Word.

    Mat 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
    Mat 13:4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
    Mat 13:5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
    Mat 13:6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
    Mat 13:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
    Mat 13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
    Mat 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

    What was our ground like when we came to God? What did we do with what we heard immediately after we had heard?

    Can we do anything to keep the birds from eating the seed before is takes root and grows? The birds may be our old friends and we are unwilling to lose them in order to please God.

    Is our ground full of rocks. Anyone who has ever planted a garden will have learned that he needs to remove the rocks from the soil. Did we have rocks in our soil when we first came to God? The rocks may be our habits, such a stopping at the bar and having one or two with the boys, or having a calming drink at home to relax when we get home from work...

    Is our ground already full of thorns that make it a very unfriendly place?

    So then to the question, "Are drunkards saved?" No one is saved until they do what God requires of them. Just exactly what is that? Do we simply kneel and cry to God until the tears flow and perhaps until the unknown tongue speaks? Then we get up and go home and continue living like that devil as per usual? Just what does it mean to repent?

    Our heart is our field, our soil. Is it full of seed eating birds? Is it barren? Is it rocky? Are we a drunk? Are we involved in sinful practices of any kind?

    Where does one get the power to repent?

    If we pray the prayer of faith [at least superficially], will God help us if we do not ask? Will He over ride our will to save us? Do we want to drink more than we want God? Do we want to sin more than we want God? Are we asking God to help us with our lack of faith?

    Mar 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
    Mar 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

    Jesus helped the man in spite of his admitted lacking. Jesus will help us as well, but we need to ask just often as we have the lack of faith to walk alone.
     
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  4. One of the problems with this question, is it gets around something called sanctification.

    Some might say... well the thief on the cross didn't go through sanctification.. perhaps, but on the other hand he had very little
    opportunity to sin for the rest of his time alive.

    What if someone is an alcoholic and gets saved. (you could fill in "alcoholic" with many other words). Do they change immediately?
    Does their heart even change immediately? Sometimes this happens, I have seen it this way. I have seen alcoholics stop drinking cold
    turkey. But it doesn't always happen this way. Sometimes there is an education process... "being drunk is a sin" (oh, really.?. I didn't know that)
    But even after being "educated" (also called discipleship) hearts don't always change immediately. It seems Jesus gives people a season or
    time to repent. ( Rev 2:21; ) just to see if they will eventually repent. He give us "time" to bear fruit. ( Luke 13:6-9; ) he even helps us "fertilizes" us.
    But in the end... it's up to us to repent and bear fruit. I don't know how long He gives us... but apparently there is a limit. I think maybe it's
    different for different people. I think there is extra grace for new Christians going through this period of sanctification.

    On the other hand, if you've been saved for a long time. Been going to church a long time (say a decade). ..and have been "educated" in the
    knowledge of the truth. ...and say you believe in Jesus.... but yet you refuse to quit drinking (fill in the word "drinking" with many other words)
    well then... are you sanctified? He gave you time to repent, but you didn't to. ( Rev 2:21; ) He gave you time to bear fruit ( Luke 13:6-9; )
    but you didn't want to. He gave you time to "overcome" but you didn't want to.

    That is the first part of sanctification. There is another part.. (both parts require obedience) and that requires investing the "talents" He gives
    you for the kingdom. Matt 25. This isn't aways (probably not even usually) money. But it is something He has given you to do His purpose.
    If you do it... well done good and faithful servant. If you don't... throw this wicked and lazy servant out, and assign his a place with the
    unbelievers. ( Luke 12:46; Matt 24:51; )
     
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  5. After reading up on this some more I found a interesting thought that inheritance is the rewards we will receive in heaven and that it is not the entrance into heaven. I thought that was interesting. for more on that


    , “inherit the kingdom” in the context of 1 Cor 6 is referring to rewards in heaven, not entrance into heaven. The Christian who persists in committing the sins enumerated by Paul will lose her rewards in heaven.

    This is no small threat. Christians face losing a seat at the wedding feast, forfeiting their reign with Christ, and not hearing “Well done, good and faithful servant” at the judgment seat. I don’t know about you, but I don’t want to give up any of those things


    #8 Post of 2014 – What Does “Inherit the Kingdom” Mean in 1 Cor 6:9-10?
     
  6. Further, when Paul, in 1 Cor. 6:9-10, speaks of not inheriting the kingdom of God, there is good evidence from the use of “inheritance” in Scripture, that he is not talking about getting into heaven. The heirs of the kingdom are its owners and rulers who reign and rule with Christ (see Rev. 3:21; 5:10; 20:4) and not just its residents. In other words, salvation, which provides us access to heaven and the eternal state is unchangeable. It is by grace through faith alone in Christ alone, but our inheritances in the kingdom are not unchangeable. Receiving one’s inheritance in the kingdom involves receiving special rewards and special privileges that come to a believer for faithful service. The loss of one’s inheritance is not the same as the loss of salvation. Salvation cannot be lost since it is a gift, free through faith.

    Will adulterers go to hell as it says in 1 Cor. 6:9-10?
     
  7. 1 Cor 6:9; Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
    1 Cor 6:10; nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
    1 Cor 6:11; Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

    The word "heir" comes from inheiritance.

    Rom 4:13; For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

    Rom 8:16; The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
    Rom 8:17; and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

    If you are a child of God, you are an heir... a "joint" heir with Christ. If you aren't an heir... you aren't a child of God.

    Gal 3:29; And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

    If you belong to Jesus... you're an heir. If you're not an heir... you don't belong to Jesus.

    Eph 3:6; to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,

    If you're not an heir, you're not a member of the body. If you're not a partaker of the promise in Gospel through the gospel, you're not an heir.

    You cannot separate the inheritance of the kingdom from salvation. Otherwise even the un-saved can inherit the kingdom of God.
    To say there is no consequence of sin is to say there is no need for repentance.

    If you're not a member of the kingdom of God... you're a member of the kingdom of the prince of the earth.
    If you don't have inheritance into the kingdom of God... you aren't saved.
     
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  8. You don't like 1 Cor 6? Ok, explain these away?

    Rom 13:12; The night is almost gone, and the day is near. Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.
    Rom 13:13; Let us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy.
    Rom 13:14; But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.

    Gal 5:21' envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    1 Pet 4:3; For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries.
    1 Pet 4:4; In all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you;
    1 Pet 4:5; but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
    1 Pet 4:17; For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
    1 Pet 4:18; AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?

    What is the outcome of those who do not obey the gospel of God? They will be judged, not just for rewards... "it is with difficulty the righteous are saved"

    Luke 12:45; "But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk;
    Luke 12:46; the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

    Being assigned with the unbelievers sounds like alot more than just losing your inheritance. Unbelievers are not saved.

    Eph 5:18; And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,

    1 Thes 5:6; so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
    1 Thes 5:7; For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
    1 Thes 5:8; But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
    1 Thes 5:9; For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

    Those who get drunk... are destined for wrath (that is a lot more than losing a reward).
    Those who are sober.... are destined for obtaining salvation.

    The opposite of obtaining salvation is NOT obtaining salvation. It doesn't say not obtaining a reward, it says salvation.
     
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  9. Well I dont drink alcohol so I dont know from personal experience...but if you truly repented you wouldnt do it again. Or want to do it again. Actually i have tried it when I was young and it was so horrible taste and made me feel violently sick I didnt want to drink again.

    That repentant thief on the cross most probably never stole again.
    I think if you continue to sin after you are saved you are going to be aware if the consequences of that sin. So it would be stupid to do it. You will need to ask Jesus to deliver you if its still a problem..this is what Jesus asks us to pray..deliver us from evil. If you find yourself still drinking and hanging around drunkards you going to have a wake up call one day. You reap what you sow.

    If its too hard God in his mercy may cut your life short. Count on it because I know so many violent deaths from alcohol its not funny.
     
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  10. This is a quote from the link above.. about "Inheriting the Kingdom". My firstquestion to this guy would be can you be a Christian if you aren't in the kingdom of God? My second question would be has this ever read 1 Corinthians. He talks about the "terrible inconsistency" of their sin but says Paul doesn't mean they aren't saved. Yet here are some pertinent verses from the chapter of 1 Corinthians immediately before chapter 6. (chapter 5)

    1 Cor 5:1; It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.
    1 Cor 5:2; You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
    1 Cor 5:3; For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present.

    1 Cor 5:5; I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    It doesn't say his soul "will" be saved.. it say "might be" saved.

    1 Cor 5:9; I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;

    1 Cor 5:11; But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.
    1 Cor 5:12; For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
    1 Cor 5:13; But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

    Paul is telling them remove this wicked person from among you. He goes on to say a little leaven, leavens the whole lump.
    In other words by allowing this sin to continue in the church, it's affecting the whole church. He says "get rid of this guy".
    Kick him out of the church. Turn him over to Satan. ...and once he is out of the church, Don't associate with him, don't even eat
    with him. God judges those who outside the church. If the church is the body of Christ, God judges those who are not a part of the
    body of Christ. Can you be saved if you aren't a part of the body of Christ?

    If we skip over the part in 1 Cor 6 that says people who do these things will not inherit the kingdom of God, what comes after this?

    1 Cor 6:15; Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be!
    1 Cor 6:16; Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, "THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH."
    1 Cor 6:17; But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

    You can't become "one flesh" with sexual sin and "one flesh" (joined to the Lord) at the
    same time. You have to choose, you can't have it both ways.
     
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  11. Hope not to derail an interesting thread here...

    I think there is a massive problem with our modern tendency to think of salvation in terms of the law court - being judged guilty or not guilty. To be sure there is a little bit of this metaphor in the New Testament, but we tend to see everything in this way.

    There are neglected ways of thinking about salvation which may be a helpful corrective: the Kingdom of God, family adoption, entering God's promised rest.

    It's too easy (and dangerous) to think of salvation in terms of a legal loophole (No matter what I do, I won't be found guilty). It feels like a cold, clinical transaction. There is no hint of this kind of thinking anywhere in the Bible, and I think this mistake helps to set us on the path that separates salvation and discipleship.

    I've just read all the sermons of the apostles recorded in the Book of Acts. The structure of most of them is: "God has fulfilled his promises and made Jesus Lord of all. Repent before it's too late!"

    Anyone who has been adopted into God's family ought to start resembling their father.
     
  12. I wonder... if we are more busy looking for loopholes than ways to be like God... what does that says about our present state
    of mind?

    Gal 5:17; The sinful nature wants to do evil, which is just the opposite of what the Spirit wants. And the Spirit gives us desires that are the opposite of what the sinful nature desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, so you are not free to carry out your good intentions.

    Rom 8:8; That's why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God.

    ...are we looking to please the flesh, or are we looking to please God?
     
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  13. BAC SAID
    I wonder... if we are more busy looking for loopholes than ways to be like God... what does that says about our present state
    of mind?

    Amen on that brother.

    thanks for taking the time to post all that,

    I know one thing for certain is I am not about to attempt to find out about these loop wholes. I just found it odd that in another group I am in there is a guy who is always talking about salvation = believe and thats it nothing else. While I get and understand we can not work our way to salvation, I do believe we become changed I know I have, these people saying we might not see any change in people yet they are saved have me puzzled, but thats on them not me, I am being changed more and more every day and love it !! Praise Jesus !!!

    Seems some people like you Said BAC are worried about the wrong things, better to stay focused on pleasing our Lord then how to figure out what we can get away with
     
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  14. 1 Cor 6 is very interesting. I am rather shocked by people who quote the above verse (no offence to you Dave :wink:) and seem to miss the subject of the chapter clearly explained in all the prior verses.

    vs 1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints.
    vs 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world?
    vs 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
    vs 5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you?

    So, here is what too many false preachers do. Quote 1 Cor 6:10 and think.....oh my....we are all guilty of this. This is just like Matt 5:28. So basically what Paul is saying is that we all deserve hell and by God's absolute mercy we get heaven / we can be a drunk but because we are washed by Jesus we are not a drunk...albeit we are a drunk. Leaving many confused Christians to think sin is sin and.....after a while leading to a Calvinistic belief system of some very special people being chosen for heaven as we are all seriously disqualified.

    What should be painfully obvious is: Paul wants us to judge properly!!! He could not be clearer in the preceding verses. So....if the unsaved can dish out differing punishments for thieves...surely a Christian can grasp intent on a greater scale???????? :smile:.

    I believe Paul is referring to those guilty of these crimes in a mortal sense. Just as Matt 5:28 is qualified with ''actual sexual immorality'' in Matt 5:32. The thief that cannot stop stealing and hurting people in so doing. The thief stealing from a widow, not the orphan stealing a potato from a crate of thousands of potatos' en route to the rich. If a Christian / any person cannot discern the difference, they need to go back to day one of Sunday school where they teach the difference between right and wrong. Or remove all the teaching they have in their mind and try use their grey matter between their ears unbiasedly. We have been brainwashed and lost all common sense. Paul is referring to the individual sold out to these sins. Note they are all plurals. A theme that is constant throughout scripture. As John 3:19 sums up perfectly '''they loved the darkness''.

    Bottom line I guess is that I feel sorry for those that are judged by some of our ''current'' saints.
     
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  15. Imagine a son whose sole preoccupation with regards to his parents was with the contents of their will.

    Every action was determined by the question: 'will this cause me to be cut off from my inheritance?'

    Fortunately the son trusted that his parents were gracious and forgiving, and was confident that nothing he could do would cause them to write him out of the will. He felt there was no problem behaving only as suited his own selfish needs.

    ...

    As you can see I am not the greatest parable writer. I'm happy for anyone to write a suitable ending to this one.
     
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  16. Thats Great Hekuran, I love it.

    Just for the record I quit drinking over 7 years ago and , but many of my old friends live in that lifestyle and this is why I was wondering. I quote them this verse almost every time I talk to them.
     
  17. Sounds like a wise parable and there is truth to it. But with regards to Christianity, nobody is born a child of God. We become children and the qualifying criteria is such an extremity / laying our lives down as Jesus did for us. So if we are a child, I believe God would overlook, basically any and everything we do do.

    I don't care if my son behaves terribly to me his whole life if I know there was a time when he took a bullet for me.
     
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  18. I dont think it quite works like that. There is a passge in ezekiel that mentions the difference between the righteous and the wicked, and God can truly judge if someone has His heart or not.

    The difference between Saul and David is quite marked, both were called to be King and both fell into serious sin...but it was David who repented.

    In the new testament the diiference between JUdas and Peter...both were called to be disciples and both seriously sinned betraying Jesus but only Peter was forgiven.

    Nobody is born a child of God its true but everyone needs to be born again.
     
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  19. Many are called but few are chosen. Meditate on that verse. Sometimes I think that we can all be called but God makes the final choice.

    I dont think its anything to do with predestination..but our sins need to be washed away and we need to come to him for cleansing, he wont let us stay as we are. Did God overlook Davids sin of adultery? Did Jesus give up teaching Peter the way? I think God cares so much...its wrong to say He doesnt care what we do. He loves is while we were yet sinners its true but thats not to say He doesnt care when people sin. He doesnt turn a blind eye to us..its us that turn a blind eye to Him.
     
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  20. Lanolin that is great

    I am going to have to borrow some of that content , it my thread so I dont have to ask for permission do I ;)
     

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