Be very careful what you watch....

[retired2pa]

As I get older (I'm 73), I realize that my time is getting short here on Earth, which is OK with me. I look forward to being with Jesus and my family and friends that have gone before me. I've been a Christian for most of my life and what I see in today's society troubles me deeply. I have to keep reminding myself that God is in charge. It's a comfort in some ways, but it's also hard to ignore the upheaval in every corner of the world...and especially the lies and evilness in our country. This world is a much different world then when I was growing up in the late 40's and 50's.

With all that said....I've always been fascinated with the possibility of Jesus' return and have studied my bible on the timeline and sequence of events pre-tribulation.

I've found a few Amazon Prime movies/documentaries on the subject and have been able to discern if they're truly Biblical or not. One I found was very convincing but I found out that they are a very Trumpist supporter organization. I don't want to pull politics into this so I'll just leave it at that. The production was very well done and tied all of Jesus' return back to the customs of a Galilean wedding. If you want to check it out, the name is "Before the Wrath". One of the presenters is a strong Trump supporter, which raised a lot of red flags for me.

Then I watched a 4-part series called "The Days of Noah". It was dragged out a lot into 4-parts but I stuck with it. I was kinda waiting for the "punchline" at the end. When they finally got to the end of the timeline, the sequence was not what I had always read, so I got out my Bible and re-read what it said. They said the Tribulation will come first, leaving all the Believers on Earth but they will be protected and not touched. They would suffer some but not harmed by non-Believers. There was no Rapture. There was no trumpets sounding or God coming down or Jesus making an appearance. I wondered how many people would watch this and be scared to death that they would be going through starvation and thirst because all the rivers and streams had turned to blood and there was no food. They said Believers would have a mark on their forehead that would be visible for Angels to see so they would be protected. They showed Believers wandering around in the woods bewildered and afraid. I was afraid just watching their interpretation.

It made me upset that they spent so much time (4-parts!) getting to the final point, only to distort it.

Am I crazy?

 

[Dave M]

Is Trump Using Christians? No, But God Is Using Him
July 17, 2020

by admin
If you can believe this, a group of Christian Republicans is warning other Christians and Republicans not to vote for President Trump in the 2020 election. An ad entitled “Trump is Using Us” was released on Tuesday on the Republican Voters Against Trump YouTube channel.

Like many, I’m perplexed by the divide in the Christian community over President Trump—but I’m not surprised. The media is fueling lies, and the world is listening. And many of those coming against our President are what is commonly referred to as liberal Christians. They love to quote scripture out of context when it supports their narrative. It makes one wonder what is truly leading them: worldly mandates or biblical principles. They rail against supporters with words such as, “How can you follow Jesus and Donald Trump?”

Trump is not using us, if anything, we are using him (and I mean that in the right way). We are not following a man, he is shaping a movement. A better question to be asking, though, is “What direction is the country heading?” If a leader lacks Christian character but is pointing the nation back to God, is that a bad thing? If they are minimizing murdering babies and maximizing godly values, is that a bad thing? If they are being a terror to terrorists and making America secure, is that a bad thing? If they are honoring hard work and minimizing free handouts, is that a bad thing? If they respect law enforcement and punish disobedience, is that a bad thing? God doesn’t judge a nation based on the character of one man; He judges it based on the spiritual health of her people. Never forget that.

I’m equally alarmed at how many progressives and liberals who use his past against him. Thank God that God doesn’t hold our past against many of us. They also look to the secular news media for information. But the majority of news outlets spin everything (yes, everything) to put President Trump in a bad light. Their hatred for him trumps the truth. Their agenda is simple and clear: remove him from office at any cost! In actuality, the media is using many so-called “Christians” to fuel the flames. And I hope you realize this: they are really coming after you, me, and our Christian values. If the truth be told, the headlines mentioned earlier should actually read: The Media is Using Us rather than Trump is Using Us.

Most critics don’t care what the facts are. Their hatred for the president overshadows their desperate need for humility. Let this sink in: innocent children are being protected, godly counsel is surrounding President Trump, terror is being restrained, good judges are being selected, socialism is being resisted, families are being encouraged via employment (black employment is at an all-time high), prayer is being brought back in schools, God’s wisdom is being sought, and on and on it goes. So again, we are not following a man, we are revitalizing a movement — a movement back to God. I’m more concerned with our nation’s national character than I am with the president’s personal character.

An analogy that I often use will bring this point home. The head of a neighborhood watch program, who took the late-night watches, had previously had an affair. He was occasionally gruff and impulsive, and sometimes his words were crass and offensive, but he watched over the neighborhood diligently each night. Each week he invited church leaders into his home to pray for him and his family and to seek their advice. He often stood against others on the committee who wanted to enact policies harmful to the neighborhood and to the children, such as advocating an open-door policy where residents were required to allow anyone into their homes at all hours of the day for handouts.

Is this not the kind of person you would want leading your neighborhood watch? Does his past or his demeanor matter more than the results he is accomplishing? If you are intellectually honest, the answer is not difficult. In the same way, the answer is simple for America. Again, we are not voting for people based on how godly they are; we are voting for the future direction of America: the right to life, the elevation of God’s Word back to its proper place, the appointment of conservative judges, securing America and her borders, creating jobs, and improving the quality of life for all Americans.

Granted, he is not perfect . . . we can simply look in the mirror to validate this truth, but is he improving, learning, and growing? Is he looking out for the American people according to Romans 13? Be careful: much of what we hear about Trump is actually designed to mislead us. He has an incredible team around him offering spiritual advice on a daily basis. Can you imagine having people like Jack Graham, Jim Garlow, James Robison, Jack Hibbs, and countless others speaking into your life or the life of our president? We should be extremely thankful. I find it ironic that many of the never-Trumpers fail to take this into consideration. We should be shouting with joy rather than having sour looks on our faces.

As I’ve said numerous times from the pulpit and with the pen: We must remember that President Trump is growing and maturing as a leader. God often uses broken and flawed leaders. Based on their reasoning, my past just a few decades ago would disqualify me from becoming a pastor! And struggling with dyslexia and reading disabilities and having graduated high school with a 1.8 GPA, I should not be writing op-eds on the national level or speaking to tens of thousands on the radio and other media outlets. My critics will laugh at me, but many others will be encouraged (i.e., if God can use Shane Idleman, He can use me, too, if I repent and turn to Him). I am flawed, broken, and utterly dependent on God, and I’m not ashamed to admit it. My strength actually comes from my weakness (2 Cor. 12:9-11).

To reiterate, we are not supporting President Trump’s past lifestyle; we are supporting a movement back to God. God will use unlikely candidates to accomplish His purposes. We can’t have our cake and eat it too — there is no middle ground for Christians today. You can choose a president who will destroy the America we know and lead us down the primrose path of socialism — or worse. Or you can choose to back President Trump. There is no Plan B. Find more at ShaneIdleman.com.

 

[Sue D.]

As I get older (I'm 73), I realize that my time is getting short here on Earth, which is OK with me. I look forward to being with Jesus and my family and friends that have gone before me. I've been a Christian for most of my life and what I see in today's society troubles me deeply. I have to keep reminding myself that God is in charge. It's a comfort in some ways, but it's also hard to ignore the upheaval in every corner of the world...and especially the lies and evilness in our country. This world is a much different world then when I was growing up in the late 40's and 50's.

With all that said....I've always been fascinated with the possibility of Jesus' return and have studied my bible on the timeline and sequence of events pre-tribulation.

I've found a few Amazon Prime movies/documentaries on the subject and have been able to discern if they're truly Biblical or not. One I found was very convincing but I found out that they are a very Trumpist supporter organization. I don't want to pull politics into this so I'll just leave it at that. The production was very well done and tied all of Jesus' return back to the customs of a Galilean wedding. If you want to check it out, the name is "Before the Wrath". One of the presenters is a strong Trump supporter, which raised a lot of red flags for me.

Then I watched a 4-part series called "The Days of Noah". It was dragged out a lot into 4-parts but I stuck with it. I was kinda waiting for the "punchline" at the end. When they finally got to the end of the timeline, the sequence was not what I had always read, so I got out my Bible and re-read what it said. They said the Tribulation will come first, leaving all the Believers on Earth but they will be protected and not touched. They would suffer some but not harmed by non-Believers. There was no Rapture. There was no trumpets sounding or God coming down or Jesus making an appearance. I wondered how many people would watch this and be scared to death that they would be going through starvation and thirst because all the rivers and streams had turned to blood and there was no food. They said Believers would have a mark on their forehead that would be visible for Angels to see so they would be protected. They showed Believers wandering around in the woods bewildered and afraid. I was afraid just watching their interpretation.

It made me upset that they spent so much time (4-parts!) getting to the final point, only to distort it.

Am I crazy?

No, you're not crazy -- it is very sad that they are teaching that. Totally wrong.

 

[B-A-C]

so I got out my Bible and re-read what it said. They said the Tribulation will come first, leaving all the Believers on Earth but they will be protected and not touched. They would suffer some but not harmed by non-Believers. There was no Rapture.

I haven't watched this series, I am not familiar with it. I do believe there will be a rapture. The Bible plainly says Jesus will send His angels to "gather up" the elect, in a few places. ( Matt 24:31; Mark 13:27; 2 Thes 2:1; )
However all of these passages do explicitly say "after the tribulation". ( Matt 24:29; Mark 13:24; ) The Bible says the saints in white robes will come "out of the great tribulation" ( Rev 7:9-14; )

You say you got your Bible out and "re-read it". Can you tell me where the verses is, that says the rapture will be before the tribulation? I just gave you some that say it will be be after. (There are a few more)

 

[Dave M]

Can you tell me where the verses is, that says the rapture will be before the tribulation? I

I do concur with what you say Ray, but there is one verse in Revealtion that suggest the church will be spared

Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth

 

[B-A-C]

Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth

I have to admit I have wondered about Rev 3:10; and how it compares to Rev 2:10;

Rev 2:10; 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

There are some who believe there will be multiple raptures. (I would like to see scripture for this)
They believe the "righteous" Christians will go up pre-trib ( Rev 3:10; ) and the "marginal" Christians will have to be tested ( Rev 2:10; ) in order to make it. (post-trib)

If this is the case... I wonder where the dividing line between righteous and marginal is? Also it seems that if we have to pass a "test"... then it's not "grace alone".

 

[B-A-C]

the Believers on Earth but they will be protected and not touched. They would suffer some but not harmed by non-Believers.

Rev 9:3; Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4; They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
Rev 9:5; And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man.

 

[Brad Huber]

The last 3 1/2 are worse than the 1st. I "think" it may be mid-trib, that allows for us to suffer some of it, but not the worst of it.

 

[Brother-Paul]

As I understand it put briefly

First 21 months includes... the Seven Seals of Revelation?

- Seal 1 - Rev 6:1-2 - White horse - Had a bow. Given a crown to go our conquering.
- Seal 2 - Rev 6:3-4 - Red horse - Has a sword. To take peace from the earth, people kill one another.
- Seal 3 - Rev 6:5-6 - Black horse - Had pair of scales in his hand. Huge inflation would occur, oil and wine spared.
- Seal 4 - Rev 6:7-8 - Pale horse - Death and Hades with him, 1/4 earth killed by sword and famine.
- Seal 5 - Rev 6:9-11 - Martyr cry out 'How Long?' Not until souls of brethren he kills is complete.
- Seal 6 - Rev 6:12-17 - Cosmic! Earth quakes, sun darkens moon turns red, stars fall from the sky.
- Seal 7 - Rev 8:1 - Heaven is silent for half an hour!
- Seal 7 - continued.
Revelation 11:11-17 (NKJV)
11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.
13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.
15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"
16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God,
17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.

Second 21 months will includes... the 7 Trumpet calls

- Trumpet 1 - Rev 8:7
Hail & Fire mingled with blood sent to earth. Burning 1/3 of all trees and green grass

- Trumpet 2 - Rev 8:8-9 -
Great mountain burning with fire thrown in to the sea. Turning 1/3 of water to blood, killing 1/3 living creatures in sea and ships.

- Trumpet 3 - Rev 8:10-11
A Great Star fall from heaven burning like a torch. It will somehow fall over a wide area of land and in 1/3 of streams and springs

- Trumpet 4 - Rev 8:12
Striking of the sun, moon & stars. 1/3 of each will be darkened sunshine will never again be as bright. Max. 2/3 of sun on best days.

Revelation 8:13 (NKJV)
And I looked, and I heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, "Woe, woe, woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!"

- Trumpet 5 - WOE-1 - Rev 9.1-12
Star fall from heaven unto the earth: to him was given the key of the bottomless pit - he opened bottomless pit; smoke arose as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit - there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: given power, as scorpions of earth have power. Commanded not to eat grass, green thing or tree but, only those who have not got seal of God. Not to kill but torment them for 5 months

- Trumpet 6 - WOE-2 - Rev 9:13 - Rev 11:14
Sixth angel sounded, a voice from the Four horns of the golden altar which is before God, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. Four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. The number of the army were two hundred thousand thousand, By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

- Trumpet 7 - WOE-3 - Rev 11:15-19
Loud voices in Heaven. Breaking of 7th seal. Introduces next series of Divine Judgements. Not itself a Judgement, shows Heaven Rejoicing at the soon-to-be Victory over the anti-Christ. Great Rejoicing in Heaven.

This will be the first 42 month or three and a half years (Half way point)

Above is a brief list of the stages in the first 42 month, the second 42 months is also divided in to two periods of 21 months.

It will start with the 7 VIALS, and Yes, every stage gets worse.

And Yes, the latter 42 months is far worse than the first.

 

[Sue D.]

I have to admit I have wondered about Rev 3:10; and how it compares to Rev 2:10;

Rev 2:10; 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

There are some who believe there will be multiple raptures. (I would like to see scripture for this)
They believe the "righteous" Christians will go up pre-trib ( Rev 3:10; ) and the "marginal" Christians will have to be tested ( Rev 2:10; ) in order to make it. (post-trib)

If this is the case... I wonder where the dividing line between righteous and marginal is? Also it seems that if we have to pass a "test"... then it's not "grace alone".

Those first chapters of Revelation are talking to / about the 7 churches in Asia. 2:10 is talking to the Smyrna church and 3:10 to the church of Philadelpha. And Can be applied to present-day churches.

Well -- either a born is born again or they aren't. Scripture tells us about one rapture and Only one. We Are to be in process of spiritual growth. The 'righteous' / 'marginal' Christians -- sometimes people like to be the 'Holy Spirit' in other peoples' lives. That can be judgemental. On the Other hand -- there Should be evidence of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in a believers' life. Fruit inspectors. Loving, caring, concern. So -- in the 'big' picture -- you're right -- if a person has to pass a test -- then our salvation is not 'grace alone'. Which we Do know, it Is.

 

[Brother-Paul]

A few days ago I put the following in another thread, based upon what a wedding was like at the time of Jesus, including all the procedures involved from betrothal to wedding feast. I feel it is so important to look at the times of Jesus, and the culture, but equally important was the importance to Jesus' very first miracle at the wedding at Canaan in Galilee, and his second coming.

Then after this I read the post above from a dear brother who recommended a film called 'Before the Wrath'.I sincerely thank him for recommending that film, it fit perfectly to my thoughts, it fit perfectly to a wedding at the time of Jesus, it fits perfectly with Christ's second coming.

This is what I wrote prior to seeing the film, I recommend the film highly, it died in quite a few gaps that many have not realised.

My notes where...

What was a wedding like at the time of our Lord? Certainly different to the world today, particularly the western methods and styles.

In this marriage procedure, all these stages are replicated in our Lord's Church, which He describes himself as the bridegroom, all born again believers as His bride, and of course the invitation to the Wedding Feast which all saved souls are invited to.

The traditional Jewish Wedding at the times of Jesus.

1 - There is the marriage covenant - The father pays for the bride and establishes the marriage covenant.

Further reading Acts 20:28; 1 Cor 6:19-20; 1 Cor 11:25; Eph 5:25-27

2 - The Bridal Chamber is Prepared - The son returns to his father’s house and prepares the bridal chamber.

Further reading John 6:62; John 14:2; Acts 1:9-11

3 - The Bride is Fetched - At a time determined by the father (Matt 24:36), the groom fetches the bride to bring her to his father’s house. “Although the bride was expecting her groom to come for her, she did not know the time of his coming. As a result, the groom’s arrival was preceded by a shout, which forewarned the bride to be prepared for his coming.”

Further reading John 14:3; 1 Thess 4:13-18

4 - The Bride is Cleansed - The bride undergoes ritual cleansing prior to the wedding ceremony.

Further reading 1Cor 3:12-15; Rev 19:7-8 +

5 - The Wedding Ceremony - The private wedding ceremony.

Further reading Rev 19:7 +

6 - The Consummation - In the privacy of the bridal chamber the bride and groom consummate the marriage.

Further reading Rev 19:7 +

7 - The Marriage Feast - The celebratory marriage feast to which many are invited.

Further reading Matt 22:1-14; Matt 25:1-13; Luke 12:36

This order is replicated in the Lord's preparation and return
- The first step in the wedding has already taken place.
- The marriage covenant was established at the First Coming of Christ.
- Whenever a person places their faith in Jesus Christ, they enter into this covenant (the New Covenant) and become part of His bride.
- Since the ascension of Jesus following His resurrection, He has been at His Father’s house preparing the bridal chamber:
The rest will happen quickly at our Lord's Return.


The Jewish marriage, unlike that in the western world, involves numerous steps, and a period of time before the ceremony

FIRST betrothal (which involved the prospective groom’s traveling from his father’s house to the home of the prospective bride, paying the purchase price, and thus establishing the marriage covenant);

SECOND the groom’s returning to his father’s house (which meant remaining separate from his bride for 12 months, during which time he prepared the living accommodations for his wife in his father’s house);

THIRD the groom’s coming for his bride at a time not known exactly to her;

FOURTH his return with her to the groom’s father’s house to consummate the marriage and to celebrate the wedding feast for the next 7 days (during which the bride remained closeted in her bridal chamber).

The two become one body, after the wedding ceremony, the consummation and the wedding feast.

From what I understand from a Messianic Jew, the wedding feast, wedding meal, is a joyous feast, with lots of lively Jewish wedding tunes and dancing in accordance with Jewish tradition, a little like folk dancing. When the bride and groom leave the yihud room, seclusion room, to enter the banquet hall during the wedding feast, they are greeted and raised up on chairs by their friends, as the assembled guests dance around them.

It is their practice, after the wedding, that the bride and groom retreat to a seclusion room, joining their guests for a festive meal later, and then celebrate with friends and family for the next seven days.

We see here how a typical Jewish Wedding takes place and the procedures and time periods involved, it is also very clear why the first miracle of Jesus was at a wedding feast in Canaan in Galilee. Jesus replicates the Jewish Wedding pattern to show us what we should expect, up to His Return and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

I think looking at the procedure for the marriage at the time of Jesus is so important for the Christian to understand.

Now in the OT times things were slightly different, but not a lot.

The marriage in OT times was official when the betrothal took place. "There was no religious rite that was performed with the concluding of the marriage, although there was a feast at the conclusion of the festivities (Gen 29:27, Judg 14:10)".

A betrothed woman was, in the eyes of the people, legally married. When the marriage itself was consummated the husband received the wife and the family of the wife received a "dowry".

This payment was made because, as the wife's family had given their flesh and blood the husband's family was bound to gives order to maintain balance between the families. The payment of the rhm (mohar, or "dowry") was simply compensation for the loss of the daughter's labor and should not be considered as a wedding gift (Preuss, p. 104).

Within the family circle the husband was the "lord" while the wife was expected to "help" him by providing the family with children. The will of the husband was binding on the whole family. If the wife wished to express her wishes in contradistinction to the husband, she had to do so slyly (as illustrated in the stories of Rebeccah (with Isaac) and Abigail (with Nabal).


My understanding regarding marriage in accordance with scripture is therefore unchanged. But I will as always listen to and consider any other argument put forward, that is based on scripture, based on Jesus' teaching, based on Jewish culture at the time of Jesus.

- Sex before marriage is sin.
- Living together and having sex is sin.
- Looking at another person and having sexual thoughts is sin.

Shalom

1
Benjohnson
Add bookmark Yesterday at 12:50 PM #46
PloughBoy said:
I do understand how you feel. But Trevor, we are old enough and we know, two wrongs does not make things right. A believer and a non-believer. God said, in His Word, they have nothing in common! "lean not unto thy own understanding". She should remain single and raise her child and grow in Christ, and deny herself. The God, who I know, who is real is also a Father to the Fatherless if the case so be. But I say, "Trust Him"! "In your patience, possess ye your soul"
Click to expand...Trevor, I wonder what happens when we play with fire. As Christians do we really understand what biblical marriage is? I'm not talking about the customized modern versions of marriage Satan has benevolently presented to the world. What is the difference between a boyfriend and a husband? Here in Africa and particularly, Nigeria, those two terms are quite distinct, and mean completely different things, and, I believe, in the Bible too. Do we understand the necessity of the covenant component in the equation of marriage? When we understand these things, understand the present working of Satan to make sin look 'normal', understand when compromise looks permissible because we are "flesh and blood," and remember we are at the elastic limit of man's time on earth, then I think we would readily understand the seriousness of matters like Kitty's, when placed on the scales of the Word of God!

2
PloughBoy
PloughBoy
Add bookmark Yesterday at 3:25 PM #47
KittyLinda said:
I'm in need for your prayers regarding my situation with my boyfriend who is not a Christian. I do not think I'd want to disobey God's word on this matter, but I only came back to God recently this year, and we have a beautiful daughter together. I've talked with him about living separately many times as I can't have sex with him but he freaked out. He thinks I'm breaking up with him. I was very tearful because that was not my intention. I failed already when it comes to abstaining from the sex on several occasions. Sometimes I tell him how this needs to stop and it only brings awful conversations again. I do not blame him as he never knew me as a Christian, even though he knows well how I was struggling maintaining that identity. I do not want to sin against God, and he won't convert any sooner. I know Satan is using this to break my faith again, but I want to please God. I'm thinking about moving out, but I know that could just end everything because that is how he sees it. It made me very angry. I told him I also will miss the sex, but I also have my faith, and it is very serious. He left and came way too late in the morning, and slept on the sofa and I could tell he was drinking which is something he does only if he is furious. For the past 2 days, we kept avoiding each other until I apologized, but really I'm very stuck. I also think about how breaking up with him may complicate my life. I struggle with relationships if you read my other post about my same-sex attraction and my metal health is not the best. I do not see that happening after becoming a Christian, but I'm tempted sometimes and it will devastate me to start this circle again.
Click to expand..."Happy Birthday" Kitty!

0
Brother-Paul
Brother-Paul
Add bookmark Yesterday at 9:36 PM #48
Happy Birthday Kitty.

Jesus loves you we do too.

0
Brother-Paul
Brother-Paul
Add bookmark Yesterday at 10:08 PM #49
Brother-Paul said:
As stated yesterday in post #42

I do know where you were coming from, regarding two coming together, that is a man and a woman, in marriage, both in scripture and in human law. But it is a debateable topic also, which so often draws two camps of thinking.

Having briefly covered the first option which is two coming together, a man and a woman, having sex, become one body through sex, before marriage, in marriage and not getting married at all.

I would now like to share the other option, and welcome comments for all on both sides of the fence as it were.

The first thing I would comment on is that of Jesus' first miracle at a 'wedding feast' at Canaan in Galilee.

This being His first miracle, and it being a wedding feast, is full of importance for us I believe. We could say that is was the start of His ministry, pointing to the end, when we will be invited, as born again brethren to the Wedding Feast of the Lamb. But again I feel Love and marriage go together like a horse and carriage, marriage and love are very important in God's eyes.

So I ask, with this importance in mind, what was a wedding like at the time of Jesus?

If we search the KJV Bible for marriage we will find, 19 occurrences, 2 are in the OT, the other 17 are in the NT.
We are given 3 words in the Strong's Dictionary, NT, they are marriage, marry and feast. <G1062>, <G1547>, <G1548>

<G1062> comes up the most times and means... marriage, wedding, feast
<G1547> comes up just 6 times and means... marriage
<G1548> comes up 2 times and means... marriage

These references can refer to - marriage, marry, feast and given in marriage.

This gives us a very clear starting point, that a wedding, is the marriage of a man and woman, and they have a wedding feast.

What was a wedding like at the time of our Lord? Certainly different to the world today, particularly the western methods and styles.

In this marriage procedure, all these stages are replicated in our Lord's Church, which He describes himself as the bridegroom, all born again believers as His bride, and of course the invitation to the Wedding Feast which all saved souls are invited to.

The traditional Jewish Wedding at the times of Jesus.

1 - There is the marriage covenant - The father pays for the bride and establishes the marriage covenant.

Further reading Acts 20:28; 1 Cor 6:19-20; 1 Cor 11:25; Eph 5:25-27

2 - The Bridal Chamber is Prepared - The son returns to his father’s house and prepares the bridal chamber.

Further reading John 6:62; John 14:2; Acts 1:9-11

3 - The Bride is Fetched - At a time determined by the father (Matt 24:36), the groom fetches the bride to bring her to his father’s house. “Although the bride was expecting her groom to come for her, she did not know the time of his coming. As a result, the groom’s arrival was preceded by a shout, which forewarned the bride to be prepared for his coming.”

Further reading John 14:3; 1 Thess 4:13-18

4 - The Bride is Cleansed - The bride undergoes ritual cleansing prior to the wedding ceremony.

Further reading 1Cor 3:12-15; Rev 19:7-8 +

5 - The Wedding Ceremony - The private wedding ceremony.

Further reading Rev 19:7 +

6 - The Consummation - In the privacy of the bridal chamber the bride and groom consummate the marriage.

Further reading Rev 19:7 +

7 - The Marriage Feast - The celebratory marriage feast to which many are invited.

Further reading Matt 22:1-14; Matt 25:1-13; Luke 12:36

This order is replicated in the Lord's preparation and return
- The first step in the wedding has already taken place.
- The marriage covenant was established at the First Coming of Christ.
- Whenever a person places their faith in Jesus Christ, they enter into this covenant (the New Covenant) and become part of His bride.
- Since the ascension of Jesus following His resurrection, He has been at His Father’s house preparing the bridal chamber:
The rest will happen quickly at our Lord's Return.


The Jewish marriage, unlike that in the western world, involves numerous steps, and a period of time before the ceremony

FIRST betrothal (which involved the prospective groom’s traveling from his father’s house to the home of the prospective bride, paying the purchase price, and thus establishing the marriage covenant);

SECOND the groom’s returning to his father’s house (which meant remaining separate from his bride for 12 months, during which time he prepared the living accommodations for his wife in his father’s house);

THIRD the groom’s coming for his bride at a time not known exactly to her;

FOURTH his return with her to the groom’s father’s house to consummate the marriage and to celebrate the wedding feast for the next 7 days (during which the bride remained closeted in her bridal chamber).

The two become one body, after the wedding ceremony, the consummation and the wedding feast.

From what I understand from a Messianic Jew, the wedding feast, wedding meal, is a joyous feast, with lots of lively Jewish wedding tunes and dancing in accordance with Jewish tradition, a little like folk dancing. When the bride and groom leave the yihud room, seclusion room, to enter the banquet hall during the wedding feast, they are greeted and raised up on chairs by their friends, as the assembled guests dance around them.

It is their practice, after the wedding, that the bride and groom retreat to a seclusion room, joining their guests for a festive meal later, and then celebrate with friends and family for the next seven days.

We see here how a typical Jewish Wedding takes place and the procedures and time periods involved, it is also very clear why the first miracle of Jesus was at a wedding feast in Canaan in Galilee. Jesus replicates the Jewish Wedding pattern to show us what we should expect, up to His Return and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

I think looking at the procedure for the marriage at the time of Jesus is so important for the Christian to understand.

Now in the OT times things were slightly different, but not a lot.

The marriage in OT times was official when the betrothal took place. "There was no religious rite that was performed with the concluding of the marriage, although there was a feast at the conclusion of the festivities (Gen 29:27, Judg 14:10)".

A betrothed woman was, in the eyes of the people, legally married. When the marriage itself was consummated the husband received the wife and the family of the wife received a "dowry".

This payment was made because, as the wife's family had given their flesh and blood the husband's family was bound to gives order to maintain balance between the families. The payment of the rhm (mohar, or "dowry") was simply compensation for the loss of the daughter's labor and should not be considered as a wedding gift (Preuss, p. 104).

Within the family circle the husband was the "lord" while the wife was expected to "help" him by providing the family with children. The will of the husband was binding on the whole family. If the wife wished to express her wishes in contradistinction to the husband, she had to do so slyly (as illustrated in the stories of Rebeccah (with Isaac) and Abigail (with Nabal).


My understanding regarding marriage in accordance with scripture is therefore unchanged. But I will as always listen to and consider any other argument put forward, that is based on scripture, based on Jesus' teaching, based on Jewish culture at the time of Jesus.

- Sex before marriage is sin.
- Living together and having sex is sin.
- Looking at another person and having sexual thoughts is sin.
- There has to be a covenant.

Shalom

 

[Reba1]

There is nothing NOTHING Godly about amazon ... or any of Hollywood. Why would anyone think it would be Biblical?

 

[Brother-Paul]

Sorry about the length of post 11, I did a cut-and-paste on my mobile and it picked up LOTS more than it should have!

 

[Sue D.]

@Brother-Paul -- sounds like an interesting movie. Thanks for sharing the information about the weddings.

 

[Brother-Paul]

@Brother-Paul -- sounds like an interesting movie. Thanks for sharing the information about the weddings.

Well worth watching Sue, I found it 100% scripture correct, but found the interpretation 99% correct.

What was the interpretation error.

Scripture tells us, be ready... Jesus will come like a thief in the night, scripturally correct. Then they say, Jesus will return at night, that is simply impossible, for a God that all things are possible. Because as we know Jesus will return for his bride, his church, the ekklesia, in the twinkle of an eye. There are so many time zones in the world he couldn't return at night and not be daytime elsewhere in the world, it will happen so fast,

But putting this minor slip to one side do not let it put you off watching it, it is excellent.

Bless you

 

[Brother-Paul]

@Brother-Paul -- sounds like an interesting movie. Thanks for sharing the information about the weddings.

You are probably fed up of me saying, look back at the early church, look back to the time of Jesus, look back at the culture of the day, especially the time our Lord walked on earth.

There is do much more we can learn, like hidden treasure, especially comparing the wedding/marriage at the time of our Lord, the first miracle at Canaan in Galilee, and how it all fits together with our Lord who has gone away for a while, just like Jesus. We the ekklesia, the bride are to be ready waiting his return, he is coming for his bride. Just like the bride then she has to be ready, she doesn't know when he is coming for her, she just knows he will, same as we know he will. Only the father can say when the groom can go get is bride.

It is wonderful Sue, truly wonderful, and sex isn't even in the picture. We are told there will be no sex in heaven, but the bride, the ekklesia, the born again souls who are the true church, our Lord's bride, will meet with her bridegroom, who is just as eager to be with us as we are to be with him. Then the wedding feast will begin Sue, what a wedding, what a ceremony.

Praise the Lord, Our Father, our Groom and our Holy Spirit, in Jesus precious name. Amen