Behold, I tell you a " Mystery "

[Lion_of_Judah]

I disagree with the following statement:

.. seeing the "rapture" (or the catching away of the saints) and Christs coming (in the same manner as He left) is written so plainly about in Gods Word

You know there are some things written so plainly a child can understand

and this subject (leaving aside the question of the time of Christs appearing) is one of them.

If it is a mystery, it is natural to mis-understand and/or simply not understand, until understanding comes.

He said it is a mystery. And as such, I don't recall any of the orignal 12 disciples
understanding this mystery. Except perhaps for John.

Paul spoke of it. Where did he receive the revelation of such an event?


Respectfully, LoJ

aka, Marco

 

[ElderPaul]

All the major themes of the bible are given to us in direct statements and can be built
on using other scriptures. The coming of the Lord is one of these major themes, and
can be built upon using Matthew 24:29-31 as foundation scriptures. To test your belief,
answer the questions below, using only direct statements from scripture [ book, chapter,
and verse ].
Give book, chapter, and verse for the following:
Without adding to the word .
1. Is Jesus the son of God?
2. Did he die on the cross?
3. Is he coming again?
4.Are christians the elect of God?
5. Is Jesus coming before or after the tribulation for his elect?
6. Is there a seven year tribulation?
7. Is there a 3 1/2 year tribulation?
8. Whose wrath is poured out during this time period?
9. When is God's wrath poured out?
10. Is it ever taught in the bible that there are two comings, by using the plural
form of the word coming?
11. Where does it say that there will be those who turn to God during the
tribulation?
12. What does the word of God say about people repenting during the trib?
13. We know that Jesus is going to gather up the church, and that they are
going to come back to earth with him. Give scripture stating that the church
will be in heaven for seven years.
14. Is the spirit that changes our bodies, and raises the dead, the same spirit
that destroys the man of sin?
15. Did Jesus tell the church that when he comes, every eye shall see him?
16. If there are two comings, did he explain to them which coming this was?
Did Jesus ever, in plain words, say there were two comings, and explain the differences?
Did Paul?
My answers to the above questions.
1. Matt. 14:33, Matt.17:5.
2. Matt. 27:42, Matt. 27:50
3. John 14:3, Acts 1:11.
4. Col. 3:12
5. Matt. 24:29-31, second coming.
6. No, there is not a scripture that says seven year tribulation.
7. Yes, Rev. 13:5, 12:14
8. Satan, Rev. 12:12
9. DOL, Isaiah 13:6-11
10. No. I can't find one.
11. I can't find scripture which says that.
12. They repented not, Rev. 9:20, 16:9, 16:11
13. I can't find any that says that.
14. Romans 8:11, 2 Thess. 2:8.
15. Yes, Rev. 1:4, 1:7.
16. No, he did not.
I can't find a scripture.
Paul never did either.
I can sit down with a group of people, let them ask me those 16 questions,
and I can answer those 16 questions with scripture only, and they will be
able to understand the answer without me saying one word. You can not
do so teaching the pretrib theory. This is the difference between the word
interpreting the word, and you interpreting the word [ private interpretation ].
I'm not saying that all people will understand all scripture at first, but they
will if they keep asking God for help, and keep reading it. I was a pretribber
30 years ago, but I read Hal Lindsey, and other books on prophecy. After I
started reading the bible for myself, I couldn't find what they were teaching in
the word.
If you are a teacher, then you are responsible for what you teach. Jesus tells
us to not add or take from the word. When you speculate, and give a meaning
to scripture other then what it states, you are adding.
God bless you,

 

[Lion_of_Judah]

Hi ElderPaul,

Don't have a lot of time... when do I

I'm no scholar, and I haven't put my brain too much to the study of the end times so much in many many years.
But, let me start with these..


#6 & #7 There is a period of 'peace' in the trib when all the world worships and adores him. This would seem to contradict the period of 'tribulation' we associate that word with. But there is a time of peace with Israel, unprecidented in world history. It is during this time I believe the two olive trees will be present on the earth ( Zech 4:3 Rev. 11:1-13 ), who prophesy and cause every kind of plague. This is at the beginning of the 7 years. "The survivors gave glory to God".

The seven years is from the Daniel 9:27, and mentions specifically that in the middle, will set up the abomination of desolation.
If you propose there is only 3 1/2 years, I think this passage declares in Rev. that this is the latter half of those 7 years.


As I looked over your questions one thing stands out... you tend to keep God in a box.

Here's something to explain ~ electricity? No one has been able to.
The effects and theory has been put forth for years. But on a whole, scientists cannot explain the why to it. But they know it's there.

How much more so is the mystery we contemplate today.



Matt. 24:27 is interesting. Lightning is visible. In this case, so will the coming of the Son of Man. But, one is taken, one is left.


Zechariah 12:10- 14:5 is interesting also. What event causes Israel to suddenly recognize their King? This period of the city captured and taken into exile has to be before Christ returns.


I know I haven't gotten to your question directly. I felt the ground work had to be laid first.

Gotta go for now, God bless, Marco

 

[Coconut]

I disagree with the following statement:

If it is a mystery, it is natural to mis-understand and/or simply not understand, until understanding comes.

He said it is a mystery. And as such, I don't recall any of the orignal 12 disciples understanding this mystery. Except perhaps for John.

Paul spoke of it. Where did he receive the revelation of such an event?


Respectfully, LoJ

aka, Marco

I assume you are referring to this passage of Scripture:

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed...


Read it again in BBE

1Co 15:51 See, I am giving you the revelation of a secret: we will not all come to the sleep of death, but we will all be changed...

Now what do you see?

 

[Lion_of_Judah]

Now what do you see?

Hello,

The greek word used here is musterion.

From Strongs. Just as it is written and italicized:




3466. musterion, moos-tay'-ree-on; from a derivative of muo (to shut the mouth)
a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites):- mystery.




But it's all greek to me


Interesting how this is defined and used. "Initiation"...... hmmmmm :thinking:

 

[Coconut]

Behold, I show you a mystery; ie unravel the mystery, reveal the mystery, put it in lay terms, simplify it so you can understand it....


But maybe i`m too simple

 

[ElderPaul]

Hi ElderPaul,
"As I looked over your questions one thing stands out... you tend to keep God in a box."


That would make me one powerful man, now wouldn't it? Please explain.

ElderPaul

 

[ElderPaul]

I assume you are referring to this passage of Scripture:

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed...


Read it again in BBE

1Co 15:51 See, I am giving you the revelation of a secret: we will not all come to the sleep of death, but we will all be changed...

Now what do you see?

What I see is a revealing of what will happen to those, in Christ, at his coming, who are still alive. AllThey had been taught, was "THE resurrection.
Resurrection is for THE DEAD. Now what about those still alive, and remain, 1 Thess 4:17?

Paul had been taught the gospel by the revelation of Jesus Christ, Gal
1:12. He was not taught by man. He went into Arabia for three years.
Paul also said that he knew a man who had been taken to the third heaven, 2 Corint 12:1-4. Before this he said, "I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord".

PAUL DID RECEIVE REVELATIONS FROM JESUS THAT THE OTHER APOSTLES DIDN'T.

God bless

 

[Coconut]

That would make me one powerful man, now wouldn't it?

Gotta love you guys!

What I see is a revealing...

Thank you...and as such its no longer a mystery...that should settle that...

 

[ElderPaul]

AMEN to the glory to God!

 

[Lion_of_Judah]

Paul spoke of it. Where did he receive the revelation of such an event?

PAUL DID RECEIVE REVELATIONS FROM JESUS THAT THE OTHER APOSTLES DIDN'T.

If Paul received revelations from Jesus that the original 12 disciples did not, and we know he studied the word fervently, isn't it possible there have been more 'revelations' of His word to the church.. particularly in the matter we discuss today?

For instance: Adam was created outside the garden... Wild at Heart kind of guy.
Eve was created within the garden... Captivating

This was a 'revelation' to the church. And it's genuine nature created a firestorm of interest.



Now riddle me this..

And then shall appear the sign of the Son


What is the sign refered to here? Is there anywhere in the word which says what the sign is? If not,
your supposing those who have speculated about what this is across the centuries..

When you speculate, and give a meaning to scripture other then what it states, you are adding.

are 'adding to' ?


I'm interested in your answer to these two questions:

When Christ comes for His bride, will she be bloodied and bruised from the tribulation?
Will He allow the very one whom He died for to face the wrath He's pouring out on the earth, which is for punishment?



Marco

 

[ElderPaul]

QUOTE:
For instance: Adam was created outside the garden... Wild at Heart kind of guy.
Eve was created within the garden... Captivating

This was a 'revelation' to the church. And it's genuine nature created a firestorm of interest.>II

Question? If THAT was a revelation to the church, what revelation do you get from the animals being created before Eve?


QUOTE:
Now riddle me this..

And then shall appear the sign of the Son


What is the sign refered to here? Is there anywhere in the word which says what the sign is? If not,
your supposing those who have speculated about what this is across the centuries..

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">When you speculate, and give a meaning to scripture other then what it states, you are adding. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

are 'adding to' ?


I'm interested in your answer to these two questions:

When Christ comes for His bride, will she be bloodied and bruised from the tribulation?
Will He allow the very one whom He died for to face the wrath He's pouring out on the earth, which is for punishment?>>"



Answer to "what is the SIGN of His coming?

The disciples asked the same question. They wanted to know what the
sign was that would warn of the ending of the world. Jesus gave them signs to watch for in Matthew 24, verses 5-24. He said to especially
watch for the gospel being preached into all the world, because only then could the end come. In verse 33, Jesus said that when the signs
[ all these things ] that he had given were seen, then "it" was even at the doors. "It' refering to his coming in verses 29-31.

Question: What shall be the sign of thy coming? Verse 3.

In verse 26, Jesus warns that his coming won't be "in" the secret chambers. Jesus then gives a description of his coming, which is in direct opposition to "the secret chambers". He tells His disciples that his coming will be "as" the lightning that comes out of the east and shines to the west. If you're in the same area as the "secret chambers"
you might not see them, but if there is lightning in this area, ALL can see the lightning.

Matthew 24:29
Jesus said, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days, shall the sun BE darkened, and the moon SHALL NOT give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30
"And then shall appear the SIGN of the Son of man in heaven: and THEN shall all the tribes mourn, and they shall SEE the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven WITH power and GREAT GLORY.

Step one: After the tribulaion, the SUN will be darkened. WHO does the
darkening? God. If the sun is dark, the moon gets no light. Right? There
will be complete darkness on this earth, as it was in the days of Moses.
Exodus 10:21.

Joel 2:31,
"The sun shall BE TURNED into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the great and terrible DAY OF THE LORD COME".

Some people claim the moon will be red on this day. But if there is
NO sunlight, there will be no light from the moon at all. There will be a dead moon. When blood comes out of the body, and dies, it turns black. The moon will be "black" as dead blood.

Another prophet that spoke of the day of the Lord, was Amos. He said,
"Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the DAY OF THE LORD is DARKNESS, AND NOT LIGHT". 5:18.

In verse 20, Amos said that there was NO BRIGHTNESS IN IT.
Let me say now that the darkness is not the sign of his coming. The darkness is a SIGN that the day of the Lord is here. The darkness is just an attention getter.

Step two:
AFTER the darkness comes, THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven. And they shall SEE. See what? They shall SEE the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven, WWWithhhhh power, and great
glory. Now let me ask you a question? Do you think there will be any
light in his coming? Paul said that Jesus was coming in flaming fire.

Answer: The sign of His coming, is His coming.

Question:
When Christ comes for His bride, will she be bloodied and bruised from the tribulation?

I don't know about you, but the early church fathers thought it an honor to suffer martytdom for Jesus. Jesus said if you tried to save your life, then you would lose it. Look at it this way. There is a mountain. At the top is eternal life. Some will climb up the rocky way,
suffering great risk. Others will take the cable car, and not have to put out any effort. Both will arrive at the top. { Just so you won't misread my meaning, I'm referring to how a person leaves this life, tribulation,
or before the tribulation ].

Most people would choose the easy way. They would rather have the tribulation come after they have passed out of this life. BUT, some will have to pass through the tribulation at the appointed time. The end results is the same. Eternal life. Walk in the spirit, and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh, or the fears of the flesh.

Answer: The overcomers will come through victorious!!!

Question:
Will He allow the very one whom He died for to face the wrath He's pouring out on the earth, which is for punishment?

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ". 1 Thess 5:9.

Which wrath is he talking about? Paul said that we would escape the "sudden destruction" that would come on the DAY OF THE LORD. We are talking about the FINAL, DESTRUCTIVE, CRUEL, AND FIERCE ANGER
that comes on the last day, called the DAY OF THE LORD, Isaiah 13:6-11.
The church WILL face antichrist, and will be persecuted. We are appointed unto tribulation, 1 Thess 3:3. We are not appointed unto God's wrath, 1 Thess 5:9.

Does God love you more than He loves the apostle Paul? Paul loved his life not even unto death. The tribulation is for the testing of the saints.
Why? I don't know. God ALLOWED Satan to test Job. Now, in these final days, God is going to ALLOW Satan to test His church. Why? I don't know. Live with it, or die with it.

Answer: Yes!

 

[Lion_of_Judah]

I shall refer to this thread already in place.

Don't know how I missed it.



Chad did an excellent expose on it.

Marco

 

[ElderPaul]

I shall refer to this thread already in place.

Don't know how I missed it.



Chad did an excellent expose on it.

Marco

Brother, you have missed a lot. Does this mean I don't get a answer to my last post?

You asked questions, and I answered them. Are you in the habit of disrespecting people this way?

 

[Lion_of_Judah]

Let us recall the divine plan of God:
That being to have relationship with His 'free will' creation. That they may choose to have relationship with Him, in and of their own free will.

..and, that divine creation of relationship, having been broken, and, He knowing it was going to happen, foreknew and planned a plan devised to bring back the very ones he foreknew would desert Him.

Gaining their love and respect for Him, because He first loved them. now all cords of dissention and disrepair have been forever mended and relationship once again restored.


Comes now the 'tribulation', "as such has never been seen on the earth, nor ever will be again".
..Ultimately.. what is Gods intended purpose here?

With the church taken from the earth (as the pre-trib'r believes),
and the two Olive Trees now upon the earth.. what is their message?


The two questions' answers are one and the same: Repent

IISam 14:14 "But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from Him."
It has always been that. He wants relationship with us.. us being, His creation.

Question? If THAT was a revelation to the church, what revelation do you get from the animals being created before Eve?

I feel you missed the whole point here. If you've read the book, you understand the undertone is to know God and onesself.
Not to look for someother place to find the hidden meaning.


The sign of His coming..yes..

The darkness is just an attention getter

Matthew 24:29,30
Jesus said, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days, shall the sun BE darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven. Then shall all the tribes mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."


>But after the abomination of desolation, Israel can count the days, 1260, until the return of their messiah..
(whom they've come to know is "the one they pierced.." Zech. 12:10)
How then is this like a "thief in the night", if you can know when to expect His return?
In the example of the women with their lamps, they were warned to be ready. 5 were, and 5 were not.
The master of the house came unexpectedly.. as a thief does.
>These two contradict one another in nature, don't they?

Another prophet that spoke of the day of the Lord, was Amos. He said,
"Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the DAY OF THE LORD is DARKNESS, AND NOT LIGHT". 5:18.

Me personally.. I think this refers directly to a faith such as fundamentalist Islam. They want the Day of the Lord.

Some people claim the moon will be red on this day. But if there is
NO sunlight, there will be no light from the moon at all. There will be a dead moon. When blood comes out of the body, and dies, it turns black. The moon will be "black" as dead blood.

Walk in the spirit, and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh, or the fears of the flesh.

Aren't you speculating here?? Adding to the word???

Jesus said if you tried to save your life, then you would lose it.

The context of this word is to salvation, not excluding oneself from martyrdom. Jesus himself, 'hid', because the scribes wanted to stone him. Jn 8:59 Jn 12:36

Do you think there will be any light in his coming?

He is the light of the world. In him is no darkness.

We are talking about the FINAL, DESTRUCTIVE, CRUEL, AND FIERCE ANGER
that comes on the last day, called the DAY OF THE LORD

The bowls of wrath don't last mearly a day.

The tribulation is for the testing of the saints.

Not so. That is mearly a bi-product.

It is rather the time when Israel will finally recognize Jesus as their Messiah.

Dr. Fruchtenbaum explains:
Zechariah gives us a numeric ratio that will be purged. "And it will come about in all the land," Declares the Lord, "That two parts in it will be cut off and perish; But the third will be left in it. And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, 'They are My people,' And they will say, 'The Lord is my God.'" (Zechariah 13:8-9) Therefore, we learn that two-thirds of Israel will be purged through the fire of the tribulation, leaving the one-third elect who will be converted to Jesus as their Messiah. Thus, "all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, 'The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob. And this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins'" (Romans 11:26-27).

>Finally..

One aspect that seems to be overlooked is that God is an underdog God..

He likes to work in small numbers. With the church removed, and the Spirit out of the antichrists way,
Two Olive Trees are pretty big odds against the whole world. They'll be on national tv of course, and what better way to get the word out across the globe to: " Repent! The day of the Lord is at hand! "
Those two will get some help from the 144,000 during this time as well.


It's all about Israels reuniting with their creator.



Hope I helped a little,
God bless,

Marco



A very good online read (link): God's Purpose for the Tribulation

 

[ElderPaul]

Just like a pretrib to skip like a little lamb all over the bible, trying to flood a person with agruments, so that the objective of the last post
will be forgotten. Why do I say this? You picked out things I said that didn't have anything to do with the questions that you asked, that I answered.

Laying that aside, let's take one point at a time. I say that the DAY of the Lord is one day based on the FACT that it is never used with the plural form, as in DAYS. I know that the word DAY can be used to describe a PERIOD of time, as in several days, or years, but in this case, none of the prophets, or apostles, address it that way. It is always, THE day of the Lord.

You know what I mean. You pretribbers address the tribulation as THE
tribulation to separate IT from general tribulation that Christians are SUPPOSED to suffer, but don't, as in the good ole U.S.

Zephaniah said that he [ God ] shall make a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land. The apostle Paul said that SUDDEN DESTRUCTION will come on them, and they shall not escape.

There is no place in God's word that gives the impression that THE day of the Lord is longer than one day. It is God's FINAL destructive day when he will bring to an end the day [ as in period of time ] of grace.

Please don't refer to Peter when he said that one day is as a thousand years to the Lord, and that a thousand years is as one day. Peter was telling what time meant to the Lord.

God bless

 

[Lion_of_Judah]

For a guy who wants Christians to unite about the trib period,

You pretribbers address the tribulation

this seems rather inflamitory and divisive.

Christians are SUPPOSED to suffer

Now surely you don't mean this as doctrine.? But just a matter of what is.
Are you riddiculed, mocked or suffer as you state is suppose to happen to believers?

as in the good ole U.S.

I think you're suffering from affluenza.

The church WILL face antichrist, and will be persecuted

Where do you find this in the word? The 'church', ..to face antichrist?

I find ' believers '.

You asked questions, and I answered them. Are you in the habit of disrespecting people this way?

The overall tone of your posts carry an air of superiorority thinking.
It seems more important to you to win the arguement, than discuss matter.
..and at that, in a demeaning and condiscending fashion.





Your original question put forth was to show evidence about pre-trib thinking.

But you've digressed onto many topics where you disagree with many who've relpied here and on other threads.



Debate over pre/mid/post is simply that (period) It's people of faith talking about the idea/mystery/secret...
It's that simple.
If you, however, are hung up about it as a matter of doctrine that needs to be taught or else your dividing the church
and non-post-thinking Christians are mislead and possibly misleading the flock...


Grow up in your faith!

It's a debate Elder. It has been since it was first spoken.


What's real to people is how their going to steer their children away from poor choices, deal with a downturned market,
know who's the right one for a life partner, deal with a mom who might not make it...

Grow up. Care more about people in the here and now. Not that they believe the way you do.

No one here, as I can see, has tried to tell you your wrong! They have put forth their perspective and understanding.
You are the one hung up on what others think. And you don't like it.

The sooner you realize that, the sooner you'll accept people for who they are, & where they are.


I've not told you, you were wrong in any of your beliefs about the tribulation.
I, and many others, have simply disagreed with you. And that's all it needs to be.


Foundationally :

>> We believe Jesus is the Christ. The Messiah Israel has longed for. Eph 2:19-21

>> We believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Col 2:8- 10

>> We believe in soon returning (Second) of our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ. John 14:3

** Those are what bind us together. Are they not. Everything else is up for debate.



LoJ

 

[ElderPaul]

Are you saying that you won't discuss one point at a time? No I don't fill superior to any one.
ANYONE can read the word of God and understand it's meaning. What brothers me is when
SOMEONE perverts the word of God to try and prove a doctrine.

My reason for debate is not to see who is right are wrong, but to SEE what the word is saying
in direct statements. If to call you a pretriber is demeaning, than forgive me.

And, I've looked back over my post, and I can't find where I told you that you were wrong.
If I told you that you are wrong, then forgive for that. I have been on hundreds of rapture web sites, and I have never told anybody they were wrong.

Are we on?

God bless