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Bible Problem

NetChaplain

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Which translation of the Bible do you use? Many are unaware that the manuscripts used for the modern translations are highly spurious, because of the numerous differences between them and the Traditional Text (TT). The manuscripts used for the TT (Majority Text, or Textus Receptus, or Received Text) are much latter (5 century and latter) than those used for the modern translations (MT). The MT manuscripts were not used for copying purposes like those of the TT, because they had too many errors and therefore were rejected and did not wear out. This is what allowed the modern text to gain much ascendancy in popularity, due to their antiquity (3-4th century). As there are many differences between the manuscripts use for the MT, due to omissions, transpositions and interpolations, the early church would not use them (Vaticanus, Sinaticus and Alexandrinus).

What we have today now is that there are so many differences in these modern translations that attempting to memorize Scripture is impossible; and you can’t use a concordance with them because of the above problems stated. This produces a much less significant text that many do not know which should be followed, and thus the usual response is not reading them very much.

In the Hebrew text there are no manuscripts that contain the phrase “the brother of” in 2Sam 21:19. But instead of adding this phrase to make it a truthful reading, the MT’s have omitted it as well, making it an errant reading. Thus, it should read “Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath.” But the MT has it “Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew Goliath,” making it an errant reading in conflict with 1Chron 20:5, which states that “Elhanan the son of Jair struck down Lahmi the brother of Goliath” (the NIV had this omission until correcting it recently).

In David Fuller’s book ”Which Bible,” he states that in the winter of 1928 there was a prominent publication company that had a newspaper come out saying “Who Killed Goliath.” He continues to say that “a cablegram came from the most learned and devout scholars of the Church of England” and they “said in substance, that the Revised Version was correct, that Elhanan and not David killed Goliath; and that there were many other things in the Bible which were the product of exaggeration, such as the story of Noah and the ark, Jonah and the whale, the garden of Eden and the longevity of Methuselah.”

The Three manuscripts mentioned above are pretty much the ones these detractors use for their translations (compared to thousands of manuscripts used for the TT). The Vaticanus was found on a shelf in the Vatican library, which was there unused for 1500 years; the Sinaticus was found at monastery, where a monk was using some of the parchments for kindling to get a fire started. Both of these codexes are the oldest manuscripts (3rd century), and this is why they are given too much attention.

A greater harm these MT’s produce is from their omitting Scripture. For one of hundreds of examples, they omitted the entire passage of 1Jn 5:7, which is the primary Trinity doctrine.

Hope this is enough to get others interested in this problem, and I have a great deal more omissions to share on this if you are interested, just let me know.

God bless and always guide us to truth!

NC
 
they omitted the entire passage of 1Jn 5:7, which is the primary Trinity doctrine.
That verse does indeed need to be omitted. It is an added false verse.
The correct proper original Greek is translated as follows -

1John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood.
7 And it is the Spirit that witnesseth, because the Spirit is the truth.
8 Because the witnessing ones are three: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: because the witness of God is this that he hath witnessed concerning his Son.
10 Who believeth unto the Son of God hath the witness in himself: who believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he hath not believed unto the witness that God hath witnessed concerning his Son.
11 And the witness is this, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 Who hath the Son hath the life; who hath not the Son of God hath not the life.

The Numeric English New Testament by Ivan Panin, 1914 edition

A new edition now published as "The New Testament From The Greek Text As Established By Bible Numerics" - translated by Ivan Panin, 1914 -
"Edited for contemporary vocabulary with Greek plural words identified" - by Mark Vedder and Jim Thompson, 2012

As for the OT and the Bible as a whole I recommend the English Standard Version (ESV)
my copy of course has Anglicised spelling.
 
That verse does indeed need to be omitted. It is an added false verse.
The correct proper original Greek is translated as follows -

1John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood.
7 And it is the Spirit that witnesseth, because the Spirit is the truth.
8 Because the witnessing ones are three: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: because the witness of God is this that he hath witnessed concerning his Son.
10 Who believeth unto the Son of God hath the witness in himself: who believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he hath not believed unto the witness that God hath witnessed concerning his Son.
11 And the witness is this, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 Who hath the Son hath the life; who hath not the Son of God hath not the life.

The Numeric English New Testament by Ivan Panin, 1914 edition

A new edition now published as "The New Testament From The Greek Text As Established By Bible Numerics" - translated by Ivan Panin, 1914 -
"Edited for contemporary vocabulary with Greek plural words identified" - by Mark Vedder and Jim Thompson, 2012

As for the OT and the Bible as a whole I recommend the English Standard Version (ESV)
my copy of course has Anglicised spelling.
The King James translators were the most learned scholars in the world at the time of translating (and probably still are), and they were ingenious using italicized words to show that they were not in the original Greek, to avoid being accused of adding to the Word. If we notice, 1JN 5:7 is not italicized. The Scripture at that reference is supposed to present the heavenly witness (v7), and the earthly witness (v7). But most do not read enough of the Word to notice the difference.

Besides, I cant trust a Bible that says Elhanan killed Goliath (2Sam 21:19). This conflicts with 1Chron 20:5, which reiterates the truth. The worst corruptions are the omissions in the New Testament, where much of Scripture is detracted. They primarily only use the Vaticanus and the Sianiticus manuscripts (Minority Text); which are so corrupt that they don't even agree with one another in texts, as opposed to the Majority Text which consists of most extant manuscripts. The couple of old manuscripts weren't used by copyists in the early church and therefore didn't wear out like most did from being used.
 
The King James scholars may well have been judicially zealous in their translation of the Hebrew that was available to them
The problems of verses arise from the original manuscripts in use.
One cannot presume that the Majority Text held by the Oxford University at that time were 100% accurate. with no rabbinic or RCC additions.
The KJV only, and the KJV is simply the best, is an ideological loyalty that trumps good scholarship.
Whilst some modern versions are highly suspect - such as the NIV - not all modern translations are guilty of handling scripture deceitfully.
I do recommend the English Standard Version (ESV)

1Samuel 17:23 As he talked with them, behold, the champion, the Philistine of Gath, Goliath by name, came up out of the ranks of the Philistines and spoke the same words as before. And David heard him.
26 And David said to the men who stood by him, “What shall be done for the man who kills this Philistine and takes away the reproach from Israel? For who is this uncircumcised Philistine,
that he should defy the armies of the living God?”
32 And David said to Saul, “Let no man's heart fail because of him. Your servant will go and fight with this Philistine.”
40 Then he took his staff in his hand and chose five smooth stones from the brook and put them in his shepherd's pouch. His sling was in his hand, and he approached the Philistine.
41 And the Philistine moved forward and came near to David, with his shield-bearer in front of him.
42 And when the Philistine looked and saw David, he disdained him, for he was but a youth, ruddy and handsome in appearance.
48 When the Philistine arose and came and drew near to meet David, David ran quickly toward the battle line to meet the Philistine.
49 And David put his hand in his bag and took out a stone and slung it and struck the Philistine on his forehead. The stone sank into his forehead, and he fell on his face to the ground.
50 So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and with a stone, and struck the Philistine and killed him. There was no sword in the hand of David.
51 Then David ran and stood over the Philistine and took his sword and drew it out of its sheath and killed him and cut off his head with it. When the Philistines saw that their champion was dead, they fled.
 
Greetings NC,

I would like to move this to Bible Discussions as it is not a sermon. If you would like to 'preach' a sermon on this subject, or share one, you know you welcome to do so ....><>
------------------------------------

As for the topic at hand....

it is always a good idea to consider, if you (anyone) are not a Translator yourself, that doing such a task is far beyond the average person to tend to and the learning and dedication, with prayer and fastings, and team work, is something that most could not stick with.
Then of, of course, we have accounts of the many who lost their lives while attempting to preserve and translate the Bible for all future generations to be blessed by.

As far as going from anywhere to the English language..... an extremely difficult task. English is somewhat a mongrel mix of all sorts and now days, with lots of new vernacular, that while we speak it, others from other language bases would be completely lost in trying to understand and follow along.

I was having a discussion with some youngsters recently about this.
Cool... means? Right... why not it's all left? Why do they call it a building if it is already built?
How can we have finger tips and not toe tips but we can tip toe but we don't tip finger? Why do we park in driveways and drive on parkways? Try translating some of that into another language and see if the readers would fully get it.
@Waggles ... you'd know a couple ... fair dinkum, mate! try translating that into Papua new Guinean or Arabic. Fair suck of the sauce bottle, fair go, she'll be right.
It'll be apples, though, because we have a High and Holy God Who is able to use anything to speak His Word to whosoever He will.

I recall going to a 'church' that often spoke garbage and worldly rot, as well as Scripturally-off jive. I used to get upset by it and then one day the Lord, in His kindness and mercy to me, revealed that I only knew it was error because each time something was said that was error, He put into my mind/thoughts the right way, and it was then that the error was obvious. Therefore, it was by the erroneous messages that the Lord ministered His Words to me.
I thanked the 'pastor' for this, one day. He left town, shortly thereafter.

Some do not seek anything much and will repeat anything and believe anything.

The biggest problem i can think of with 'bad' translations is in the scenario where a people do not have access to Bible or Scripture and rely on the one or two 'pastor' figures to 'teach' them. They have no reference to anything to study and discover anything, other that what someone told them. While there would be plenty of God fearing men out there teaching Scripture and Doctrine, as it ought to be, there are always wolves and sharks.

I also think of some of those poor souls trapped by the mormons and jw's. Then there are those like in some Asian countries that have been brainwashed by mega maniacs claiming to be Jesus returned. So sad.
If they only had some Bible to at least get the basic truth from. Today, of course the online and digital technology helps folk do this, if they will. Nigeria comes to mind, also.

Having several versions to look at, helps a lot, if one really wants to look at words and verses and passages , etc.

Has anyone accessed one call T4T? Text for Translators. Interesting take on some passages.

One of my favourite 'versions' is a Children's Bible which 'opens up' so much that us grown-ups overlook.

excuse my ramblings...

Sadly there are also such, like back during the WW11 era, that are 'put together' with specific twangs and bents to them. If i recall correctly, Mr. Hitler and friends resorted to making use of some scholarly folk to make a version that had a definite but subtle anti Jewish agenda. The same scholarly works and authors were later heralded by US Bible merchants who mangaged to get the works as part of the 'next best thing' in Biblical scholarship, from which other versions were built from and/or with, which in turn were marketed as the best new translations etc, etc. (NIV? perhaps - can not remember, so don't quote me). The keen little students that sat 'under' such lead would have been taken up with the over-praise of works by such men who would use the Scripture to try to inject anti Jewish thought into the masses. Sad.

Does anyone remember the version written by that strange free mason chap recently. Spong or Wrong or whatever his name was. Celebrity versions, it seems. More sad.

A bit worrisome is what is most likely to eventuate... a version 'written' by AI [artificial intelligence - computer software in a box] which has been 'fed' all the available texts and languages of the world . I don't really want to think about that, too much, though... but it will come to pass, if it hasn't already. Then what? Anyone who dares to challenge it??? No thanks.

----------------
Then there is the ever present problem of no matter how close or 'good' a version/translation is, how men read and interpret is another thing all together, as our Brother B-A-C @B-A-C recently pointed out in another thread:


We could get a hundred different people from different places and give them all the exact same texts and there would potentially be at least a hundred different 'versions' of the same text.

Being accountable and transparent in love, to one another, is vital, to be able to receive from God the message He gives.


Thank you for reading all this. let me know if need to edit or delete, please.


Bless you ....><>
 
2-timothy-3-16-17-2.jpg
 
Bible translation is a task for highly skilled people who have spent years at their craft. A new Bible translation is often the product of decades of work, taking in the very best scholarship, research and understanding of ancient languages.

It would be nice and convenient to say that one set of ancient manuscripts is trustworthy and the rest corrupt. But that's flying in the face of complex reality. Better to let the scholars do their investigations and discern their way to the most reliable rendering of each book of the Bible.

Most modern Bibles have a preface which introduces the reader to the approach translators have taken, and they are usually worth reading. Some strive for faithfulness to ancient languages, giving that priority over readability; others prioritise accessibility. I have a simplified version of the Bible which is designed for people with dyslexia -- it's a wonderful beautiful thing, but not well suited to detailed study. I wouldn't want to knock modern translations -- I have my favourites, but most are incredible works of language and scholarship.

Some have a more overt agenda - to highlight the importance of caring for creation, or to emphasise God's love. Worthy goals, I'm sure, but I'm skeptical of the approach of skewing a whole version of the Bible in a single direction
 
The King James scholars may well have been judicially zealous in their translation of the Hebrew that was available to them
The problems of verses arise from the original manuscripts in use.
One cannot presume that the Majority Text held by the Oxford University at that time were 100% accurate. with no rabbinic or RCC additions.
The KJV only, and the KJV is simply the best, is an ideological loyalty that trumps good scholarship.
Whilst some modern versions are highly suspect - such as the NIV - not all modern translations are guilty of handling scripture deceitfully.
I do recommend the English Standard Version (ESV)

1Samuel 17:23 As he talked with them, behold, the champion, the Philistine of Gath, Goliath by name, came up out of the ranks of the Philistines and spoke the same words as before. And David heard him.
26 And David said to the men who stood by him, “What shall be done for the man who kills this Philistine and takes away the reproach from Israel? For who is this uncircumcised Philistine,
that he should defy the armies of the living God?”
32 And David said to Saul, “Let no man's heart fail because of him. Your servant will go and fight with this Philistine.”
40 Then he took his staff in his hand and chose five smooth stones from the brook and put them in his shepherd's pouch. His sling was in his hand, and he approached the Philistine.
41 And the Philistine moved forward and came near to David, with his shield-bearer in front of him.
42 And when the Philistine looked and saw David, he disdained him, for he was but a youth, ruddy and handsome in appearance.
48 When the Philistine arose and came and drew near to meet David, David ran quickly toward the battle line to meet the Philistine.
49 And David put his hand in his bag and took out a stone and slung it and struck the Philistine on his forehead. The stone sank into his forehead, and he fell on his face to the ground.
50 So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and with a stone, and struck the Philistine and killed him. There was no sword in the hand of David.
51 Then David ran and stood over the Philistine and took his sword and drew it out of its sheath and killed him and cut off his head with it. When the Philistines saw that their champion was dead, they fled.
The error yet remains in the majority of the modern translations; and the voluminous omissions in the NT (hundreds) is still the primary problem.
 
The KJV is not as infallible as many claim
Matthew 17:19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place;
and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

Mark 9:28 And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?
Mar 9:29 And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.

Very dubious doctrinally - reminds me of a Roman Catholic Hollywood movie.
This claim contradicts other scripture on the power and authority given to Spirit-filled Pentecostal disciples of the NT who could cast out demons in the name of Jesus (Mark 16:17)
Also problematic with
Matthew 9:15 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them?
but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.
[disciples did not fast when Jesus was with them - then why claim that they needed to fast in order to cast out a demon??]
Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

the correct scripture in the original Greek without the zealous addition of the RCC is as follows -
Matthew 17:19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast out?
20 And he saith to them, Because of your little faith: for Amen I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say to this mountain,
Remove hence to yonder; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible to you. [NENT]

Mark 9:28 And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast it out?
29 And he said to them, This kind can come out by nothing, save by prayer. [NENT]
 
King James Version i believe,was put together by God,using men to form it into proper verbiage. The Holy Spirit was definitely involved.
Newer ones today are not translations but rather interpretations.
It is evident just by reading King James that it is inspired. Not so with the others.
 
The King James scholars may well have been judicially zealous in their translation of the Hebrew that was available to them
The problems of verses arise from the original manuscripts in use.
You mean "manuscript copies," because there are no extant autographs of the Bible, only copies of copies (if there were originals some might worship them).
 
Some evidence please ...
1Jn 5:7 is entirely omitted. Eph 3:9 omits "who created all things by Jesus Christ." Jhn 3:13 omits "even the Son of man which is in heaven," which manifest Christ's omnipresence. These are examples of many others. Many are not concerned with changing Scripture because they don't read much of the Word.
 
King James Version i believe,was put together by God,using men to form it into proper verbiage. The Holy Spirit was definitely involved.
Newer ones today are not translations but rather interpretations.
It is evident just by reading King James that it is inspired. Not so with the others.
Hi and thanks for the supportive reply! Amen, the Holy Spirit is the Author of the Word of God!!
 
Greetings NC,

I would like to move this to Bible Discussions as it is not a sermon. If you would like to 'preach' a sermon on this subject, or share one, you know you welcome to do so ....><>
------------------------------------

As for the topic at hand....

it is always a good idea to consider, if you (anyone) are not a Translator yourself, that doing such a task is far beyond the average person to tend to and the learning and dedication, with prayer and fastings, and team work, is something that most could not stick with.
I can appreciate your concern and sensitivity about Bible translations, but if what I share is true, and it is, devoted many years of research to the subject of Textual Criticism, it's one of the most important discussions of all. Whatever translation is used doesn't affect one's salvation, but will affect spiritual growth. The Devil has made many who do not read much of the Word to become disinterested in the Word by the multiple variances in these translations. They've changed much of Scripture by transpositions, interpolations and the worst by hundreds of omissions.

Very serious problem, but only to those who want to grow more in Christ's image, as many are not concerned with the Word in a significant capacity.
 
Greetings NC,

yes.
In one way, even without translations and texts, as perhaps in the earlier Church and even before (Abraham comes immediately to mind) it is always about those who seek diligently and those who don't.

We do have so much more at our disposal now, but I also agree that changes and the like do present dangerous platforms to launch serious Biblical seeking from.
Then we have the myriad of professing experts (those who think they are as opposed to those who are) and endless arguments (even if they appear tame debates) all of which opens ground for bad seed to be sown into minds, and ultimately, people give up on it all and even turn against the Faith as they witness so many professing believers in constant disagreement.

We must rest in the faithfulness of God in His calling and His work in those who come unto Him for salvation.
What gets built or built upon after that, is perhaps what you are speaking of?

None of this has taken our Lord by surprise.
As with every era, some will be there to watch and declare for those who seek Truth and some will find it more than others.

As you no doubt agree, our Bibles are our most precious possession while we remain pilgrims in this dark world. Having text that is reliably passed on to us and to future generations only make good sense.

I am not at all convinced that things will get better and that we will have the correct Bible as the go to for the majority, due to the trends of marketing and hype and would-be experts telling everyone who will listen to them that such and such a version/translation is the way to go.

The more men like yourself do what you are able to let others know the difference and help point the way, the better.

I do come back, however, to the man who will diligently seeks the LORD verses the fool in his folly.
Not all horses appreciate the drink.


Bless you Brother ....><>
 
The way most teach,a blind or illiterate person has no chance of making it.
No where does scripture dictate you must constantly study the bible hours days and years on in. True a person can glean knowledge from the scriptures,but what is important is heart knowledge.
I must confess i do not study everyday. Some will say im headed to hell no doubt. But his word is written on my heart. And true,it got there from study over the years,and other ways,like living and experience. There is nothing wrong with a person in deep study 24/7 and makes that his lifes mission,but i notice in my years,it makes some educated fools.
I love the word of God,but i think we should take our heads out of it and breathe from time to time and live what you learned. Be a doer not a hearer only.
I feel some revere and worship the bible more than the one who inspired it.
 
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I love the word of God,but i think we should take our heads out of it and breathe from time to time and live what you learned. Be a doer not a hearer only.
For once I agree with you.
Many know the ink on the pages, but have not love nor are zealous of good works.
 
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