Book of Life

[Cody]

After a person is saved can their name be earased out of the book of life or is it eternal? I've been reading verses about this in Revelation. What is your view on this?

 

[jculver]

It is eternal. The doctrine of eternal security is undeniable IMHO.

I believe Rev iii:v is worded as such because city officials in that time often DID erase the undesirable peoples names. So He is saying he wont do that, CONFIRMING eternal security. (This is John Macarthur’s view).

True Christians WILL overcome falling completely into practicing sin. How can they not? Christ is with them. Fear not, if you came to Christ with full understanding of your need for him, and fully putting your trust in him, he secured your salvation right then and there. The evidence of true faith is spiritual fruit of course, but I wont go flying off the handle into that in this post. Romans xiii towards the end would be impossible to explain if eternal security was incorrect.

Apostates are likely the ones who soiled their garments. At least this is what I think. People who got into the church for all the wrong reasons, and eventually turned from it. Just my interpretation, but apostates are really a huge concept to keep in mind when looking at any passage that seems to contradict the doctrine of eternal security.

 

[Word of Life]

I have found three scriptures that may help in giving you a more of understanding towards your question.

Rev 2:10 Have no fear of the things which you will have to undergo: see, the Evil One will send some of you into prison, so that you may be put to the test; and you will have great trouble for ten days. Be true till death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Rev 3:5 He who overcomes will be dressed in white, and I will not take his name from the book of life, and I will give witness to his name before my Father, and before his angels.

If one turns away from God and goes back to his sinful nature of the flesh he will be cut-off

Rom 11:22 See then that God is good but his rules are fixed: to those who were put away he was hard, but to you he has been good, on the condition that you keep in his mercy; if not, you will be cut off as they were.

 

[Cody]

thanks for tha help guys. i also found some verses myself that back up eternal salvation.

Ephesians 1:13
John 10:27-29
Phillippians 1:6
Ephesians 4:30
1 John 5:4
1 Corinthians 1:8
2 Timothy 1:12

I hope this may help someone maybe with tha same question. God bless.

 

[Word of Life]

Today, I received a devotional through my inbox and after clicking on one of the links, from that devotional, this is what I clicked on, which I thought was rather appropriate for this post.

Stay in fellowship with God, build your relationship up with Him, be faithfull and trust Him, submit yourself to Him, listen to Him and He will be your guide to the end.


****************************************

Do We Have 'Eternal Security'?
by Richard T. Ritenbaugh
Forerunner, "Ready Answer," March 2002

The Methodist church near the church office often posts quotations and sayings on their roadside sign. One spring day, the sign read, "We ARE open between Easter and Christmas." Not only does this reflect a common, modern American attitude about church attendance, it is typical of Protestantism and Protestants' views on the unimportance of behavior.

This attitude and viewpoint spring from a doctrine that is a foundation of that particular brand of Christianity. This doctrine is itself founded upon the belief that human beings possess immortal souls, a lie that Satan foisted on mankind in the Garden of Eden:

Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, "Has God indeed said, 'You shall not eat of every tree of the garden?'" And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.'" (Genesis 3:1-3)

Earlier, God had informed Adam and Eve that sin exacts a penalty, death—the cessation of life—and, if a person will not repent of sin, this means total death—no chance for eternal life. This threat God has held over mankind's head from the beginning. Notice, however, how the Devil replies:

Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." (verses 4-5)

Here is the lie: "Look, Adam and Eve, you have an immortal soul. God cannot enforce His threat." In its various forms through the centuries, this doctrine of man having eternal life already has appeared time and again.

In theological terms, this belief is the basis of the "Doctrine of eternal security." What is worse, this heretical doctrine has resurfaced in the church, having been part of the latest apostasy. It cannot stand, however, before the light of God's Word. God has a far superior way of dealing with humanity—both righteous and incorrigible.

salvation Assured?

Briefly, most Protestants believe their salvation is assured once they accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. Many call this doctrine by the very familiar phrase, "once saved, always saved." To them, this means that God's grace eternally covers them, and thus they have eternal security that God will save them. God is bound to accept them and to give them salvation no matter what occurs after they accept Jesus.

To us, this idea of "eternal security" is a completely ridiculous concept. God is pure and holy (I Peter 1:15-16). He will not accept people who are not as He is. He forsook His own Son, Jesus Christ, when the sins of the world were placed on Him (Matthew 27:46)! Why would He accept us, who are far more personally sinful, if we failed to repent of our sins and came before Him demanding Him to save us "just as we are"?

An analogy from the real world may be helpful. Just because a criminal is absolved of committing a certain crime does not mean that he will never again be guilty of another crime. For example, if the governor of a state commutes a murderer's sentence, but he commits another crime later in his life, he is not innocent. The law says he is guilty of the later crime.

In the same way, a Christian who commits sin is guilty even though God's grace has covered him in the past. If he continues in the sin until it becomes a habitual way of life, he is in danger of losing the salvation promised to him. Notice Paul's quite concise statement in Hebrews 10:26: "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins."

This is plain. If we sin in rebellion against God, setting our will to go against God and His way of life, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ no longer applies. In essence, we have spit in His face. Paul continues by telling us what applies at that point:

. . . a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The Lord will judge His people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (verses 27-31)

Peter says, "For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God" (I Peter 4:17), and if we live a life of sin, we will reap the punishment that those sins deserve. Our God is a God of justice. The idea of "eternal security," then, is foreign to the Bible. It is puzzling how theologians could develop such a doctrine when the Bible repeatedly comments, warns, and advises that we can lose it all through sin.

Uncomfortable Passages

To many Protestant theologians, the apostle Paul is the champion of grace. Frequently, they quote his epistles to give credence to their doctrinal positions. For instance, Martin Luther built an entire Reformation on one verse— Ephesians 2:8 —which he proceeded to mistranslate and misuse! His rallying cry, "By grace you have been saved through faith alone," adds the word "alone" to Paul's thought. Luther is famous for disparaging the epistle of James as "an epistle of straw" because he despised James' assertion that Christians are justified by faith with works (James 2:14-26).

However, such theologians are uncomfortable with certain portions of Paul's writings because he fails to toe the once-saved-always-saved line. One of these passages is Romans 2:1-16, which expounds upon the judgment of God. Probably the best-known verse from this chapter is verse 13: "For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified."

What a blow! Paul agrees with James! Keeping God's law is vital to our justification! This has important ramifications for those who refuse to change their behavior after accepting Jesus as their Savior: Failure to keep God's law is sin (I John 3:4), and those who sin "will be judged by the law" (Romans 2:12), and "the wages of sin is death" (see Romans 6:23; Ezekiel 18:4, 20). Jesus Himself says, "I tell you, . . . unless you repent you will all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3, 5).

Paul presents this teaching clearly in Romans 2:

But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. . . . [God] "will render to each one according to his deeds": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil . . . but glory, honor, and peace, to everyone who works what is good. . . . (verses 2, 6-10)

This instruction refutes the doctrine of eternal security. He writes this letter to converted Romans, those who had already accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior. As God does in Genesis 3, the apostle threatens these Christians with God's utter abhorrence of sin and His unwavering promise to judge it.

Paul later illustrates this process of judgment to the Hebrews:

For the earth [Christians] which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessings from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned [in the Lake of Fire]. (Hebrews 6:7-8; see verses 4-6; Matthew 13:47-50; 25:31-46)

A Final Blow

For those who believe in the doctrine of eternal security, II Peter 1:10-11 is a particularly difficult teaching to dispute because it exposes the lie in this infernal teaching. It does this by stating a simple command that God asks us to carry out:

Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

The inverse is also true; if we fail to do what Peter advises, then our calling and election are not sure. Beyond that, if we stumble, an entrance will not be supplied to us into the Kingdom of God.

God has done His part. He called or elected us out of all the billions on this planet. He forgave us, granted us repentance, and gave us His Holy Spirit. He opened up the truth to us and revealed Himself and His way of life to us. He made the New Covenant with us, supplying us with spiritual gifts, love, and faith. There is no end to what He has done for us.

Nevertheless, if we do not reciprocate, the relationship He has begun will fall apart. Our calling and election are not certain without us doing our part. We can fall away and not make it into the Kingdom of God.

Why did Peter write this to the whole church (verse 1)? He wrote this because the church at the time was experiencing various apostasies (II Peter 2:3). False teachers were bringing into the church destructive doctrines to turn the people away.

Why would Satan put false teachers in the church if there was no chance for the people to fall away? If church members have eternal security, why waste his time on them? However, Satan himself knows that Christians do not have eternal security, and he tries his best to turn us into apostates. We can fall away!

Peter was writing in this atmosphere. The people in the first century church were living in a time of false teachings, false teachers and apostasy; and he needed to warn them. "For this reason I will not be negligent to remind you always of these things, though you know and are established in the present truth" (II Peter 1:12).

This, too, begs the question: Why did Peter command them to make their calling and election sure? If they had the truth, and he admitted that they were established in it, why did they have to make it "sure"? In making their calling and election sure, they would be doing the one thing that would keep them on the right path to the Kingdom. Christians keep themselves from falling into deception, error, and sin—keep themselves from apostatizing and losing their salvation—by validating their conversion.

When a thing is validated, it is objectively determined to be genuine, true, real, authentic, or legitimate. How do Christians validate their calling and election? The answer is simple. Jesus describes it in Matthew 7:16-20:

You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn-bushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

The way we validate our calling and election is by producing fruit. Jesus expounds on this in His Passover message in John 15:

I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away. And every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. . . . As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. . . . By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. (verses 1-2, 4-6, 8)

This blows the eternal security doctrine to smithereens. Our Savior, Jesus Christ—our Judge—says that if we do not bear fruit, God will take us away and throw us into the fire! If we bear fruit, however, we will glorify the Father and truly be disciples of Christ, that is, true Christians!

We validate our calling by growing in grace and knowledge (II Peter 3:18). If we are showing love to the brethren, if we are serving as opportunity permits, if we are deepening our relationship with God, we can be certain that our calling and election are still firmly in force.

Assurance Through Growth

Peter closes his epistle with a stirring warning and call to action:

Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, since you know these things beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (II Peter 3:14-18)

Peter ends the epistle with the same thought with which he began: We live in spiritually dangerous times, and the way to stay on the beam is to keep on growing. If we grow, our salvation is assured. God is faithful; He has promised us salvation, and He will give it to us if we are faithful.

And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard. . . . (Colossians 1:21-23)

Jesus Christ earnestly wants to present us holy, blameless, and irreproachable to the Father in His Kingdom, but we have a part to play too. These things will happen if we uphold our half of the covenant. We must continue in the faith. We must remain grounded and steadfast. We must keep on growing. We must continue in the hope of our resurrection and eternal life.

We will do well not to take God's salvation for granted, thinking we have some kind of eternal security without obedience to God's way of life. Instead, let us all strive to make our calling and election sure!

 

[jculver]

You can debate eternal security all you want, but notice the man who wrote that dodged Romans chapter 8 (the later verses). You know why? Because there is NO RECONCILING the doctrine of "loose your salvation" with those verses.

Trying to say the doctrine of eternal security is invalid is the worst way to try and fight "easy beliefism". The best way that scripture makes full sense is with both the doctrine of Eternal Security AND the doctrine of Lordship Salvation.

The combination of these things basically say: "If you are TRULY saved then you WILL NEVER fall away because Jesus is your LORD AND savior, not just savior" as opposed to saying "If you are saved you still might fall away, but you might not, we can try to measure it by how bad you sin".

For those of you who believe you can loose your salvation read Hebrews 6. From your viewpoint you could have already permanently lost the salvation you once had. Scary thought isn't it? You don't get to drift in and out of salvation like most people think that discard eternal security. Also it doesn't make sense with other scriptures like Romans 8.

The doctrine of Eternal Security is not a license to sin. If you are truly saved and truly believe in this doctrine with Jesus as your Lord, your heart is filled with love and joy that just spills out of you bringing about all the good works and fruit you are capable of. Without it I would actually probably just be afraid of God, not really a Love relationship, but I guess I could produce fruit out of fear.

Of course there are those who will take eternal security to insane levels and use it as a license to sin. What then do we know about these people? They were NEVER SAVED AT ALL because of course they wouldn’t do that to Christ if the Holy Spirit were in them! Look at Hebrews 6 from this point of view and you see that THOSE people the ones who have experienced everything, been to church and know of Christ and are ENLIGHTENED (NOT SAVED) are in danger of loosing their salvation because they are in danger of loosing their chance for it. The more they hear and the more they fail to make a real commitment to Christ as Lord the more likely they are each passing second to follow their wicked flesh nature and completely fall away, which could not happen with Christ.

It is sad to see what easy beliefism has done to the doctrine of Eternal Security. It is a perfectly legitimate doctrine when simply paired with other sound doctrine like Lordship Salvation.

You can lookup Lordship Salvation at wikipedia, it has a decent description. I think we both want to say the same thing which is: "Eternal security is bad if it gives you a license to sin", or "Any Christian openly living a life that involves PRACTICING sin is no Christian at all" but we are saying it differently.

 

[jculver]

Hate to double post...

I hate to double post, but there are some things that Mr. Ritenbaugh said that actually really disturb me because they take away from the glory of God. I would even go so far as to say he might be calling God a liar. They have been eating away at me a little and I have this urge to say some things about them. Anyway here we go:

To us, this idea of "eternal security" is a completely ridiculous concept. God is pure and holy (I Peter 1:15-16). He will not accept people who are not as He is. He forsook His own Son, Jesus Christ, when the sins of the world were placed on Him (Matthew 27:46)! Why would He accept us, who are far more personally sinful, if we failed to repent of our sins and came before Him demanding Him to save us "just as we are"?

Ok so right here. He will not accept people who are not as he is? Ok then EVERYONE is out. No amount of Good works no amount of repentance is getting you in. God set the standard so high so that we would see that we could not reach it, and only Christ was worthy enough.

An analogy from the real world may be helpful. Just because a criminal is absolved of committing a certain crime does not mean that he will never again be guilty of another crime. For example, if the governor of a state commutes a murderer's sentence, but he commits another crime later in his life, he is not innocent. The law says he is guilty of the later crime.

In the same way, a Christian who commits sin is guilty even though God's grace has covered him in the past. If he continues in the sin until it becomes a habitual way of life, he is in danger of losing the salvation promised to him. Notice Paul's quite concise statement in Hebrews 10:26: "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins."

So every time you sin you better have Christ come down from heaven to die for your sins again because he only died for those sins you committed before you were saved. Also comparing him to any kind of worldly justice takes away from his glory. This attitude is dangerous. People who think they have not sinned after they received Christ make God a liar 1 John 1:8,9.

This is plain. If we sin in rebellion against God, setting our will to go against God and His way of life, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ no longer applies. In essence, we have spit in His face. Paul continues by telling us what applies at that point:

. . . a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The Lord will judge His people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (verses 27-31)

Peter says, "For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God" (I Peter 4:17), and if we live a life of sin, we will reap the punishment that those sins deserve. Our God is a God of justice. The idea of "eternal security," then, is foreign to the Bible. It is puzzling how theologians could develop such a doctrine when the Bible repeatedly comments, warns, and advises that we can lose it all through sin.

The quoting "Paul" from the book of Hebrews is strange seeing as how Paul starts every other epistle he has written "Paul...". More likely Apollos wrote this book, or at least it is safe to say the author is unknown, but it is VERY unlikely it was Paul. Anyway that is sort beside the point, but it's just another assumption made in this article. Again as I have said the book of Hebrews altogether is best reconciled with other scripture as being addressed to those who are "sitting on the fence", or those who believe intellectually that Jesus was the Christ, but had not yet committed to him. There are obvious changes of audience in the book itself going back and forth between those who are on the fence, and believers. This book takes very careful study and to just take the meanings as if the book is speaking directly to you, right now at this moment, is dangerous to say the least.

Uncomfortable Passages

To many Protestant theologians, the apostle Paul is the champion of grace. Frequently, they quote his epistles to give credence to their doctrinal positions. For instance, Martin Luther built an entire Reformation on one verse— Ephesians 2:8 —which he proceeded to mistranslate and misuse! His rallying cry, "By grace you have been saved through faith alone," adds the word "alone" to Paul's thought. Luther is famous for disparaging the epistle of James as "an epistle of straw" because he despised James' assertion that Christians are justified by faith with works (James 2:14-26).

However, such theologians are uncomfortable with certain portions of Paul's writings because he fails to toe the once-saved-always-saved line. One of these passages is Romans 2:1-16, which expounds upon the judgment of God. Probably the best-known verse from this chapter is verse 13: "For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified."

What a blow! Paul agrees with James! Keeping God's law is vital to our justification! This has important ramifications for those who refuse to change their behavior after accepting Jesus as their Savior: Failure to keep God's law is sin (I John 3:4), and those who sin "will be judged by the law" (Romans 2:12), and "the wages of sin is death" (see Romans 6:23; Ezekiel 18:4, 20). Jesus Himself says, "I tell you, . . . unless you repent you will all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3, 5).

I almost start to agree with him here, but he eventually goes back to saying that he himself has some affect on his own salvation, again taking away from the glory of God. God gives you the faith, gives you the repentance, which then produces works and fruit. It is all God. All of it. When you start to think you have some part or hand in it you take from his glory. You’re his tool, he works through you, that’s it.

Paul presents this teaching clearly in Romans 2:

But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. . . . [God] "will render to each one according to his deeds": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil . . . but glory, honor, and peace, to everyone who works what is good. . . . (verses 2, 6-10)

Whoa whoa, what happened here? Where did Paul say he was addressing Christians here? Is anyone who has Christ in them defined by being self-seeking? Sure Christians stumble and slip, but in this comparison it is clear he is comparing a Christian with a non-Christian. This dichotomy, or this kind of taking this passage to be somehow talking to "two different kinds of Christians" is simply wrong. I don't see it in the text, do you?

This instruction refutes the doctrine of eternal security. He writes this letter to converted Romans, those who had already accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior. As God does in Genesis 3, the apostle threatens these Christians with God's utter abhorrence of sin and His unwavering promise to judge it.

Paul later illustrates this process of judgment to the Hebrews:

For the earth [Christians] which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessings from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned [in the Lake of Fire]. (Hebrews 6:7-8; see verses 4-6; Matthew 13:47-50; 25:31-46)

Note that anything put in his text via these brackets [] is not in the original text. Does it even come close to making sense to slap a [Christians] in there? Is that in your bible? Should we worry when someone inserts things like that as if they are in the word of God?

Christians will produce fruit. When Christ is the center of your life it is unavoidable! Therefore the branches that don't bear fruit are clearly, clearly, not Christians.

A Final Blow

For those who believe in the doctrine of eternal security, II Peter 1:10-11 is a particularly difficult teaching to dispute because it exposes the lie in this infernal teaching. It does this by stating a simple command that God asks us to carry out:

Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Again what is going on with the context here. You don't think God is sure of your election? Who would be unsure, would it be a human or God? Certainly not God, he has known since eternity past, and to say otherwise you take away from his glory. He is all knowing is he not?

For a "final blow" this is weak to say the least, and I am just alarmed at his interpretation. Who in scripture gives you assurance of you salvation? The answer is the Holy Spirit. When a Christian sins he grieves the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30), and of course disobedience will damage your assurance. Look at Romans 7, and tell me that Paul didn't struggle with sin.

Peter is simply stating that if you want to be sure of your salvation be obedient. It doesn't make God any less sure when you sin. Anyone who says it does, doesn't understand fully the God of the bible.

The inverse is also true; if we fail to do what Peter advises, then our calling and election are not sure. Beyond that, if we stumble, an entrance will not be supplied to us into the Kingdom of God.

The inverse would be true if that’s what the verse implied, and it clearly doesn’t. This really is a WILD leap.

God has done His part. He called or elected us out of all the billions on this planet. He forgave us, granted us repentance, and gave us His Holy Spirit. He opened up the truth to us and revealed Himself and His way of life to us. He made the New Covenant with us, supplying us with spiritual gifts, love, and faith. There is no end to what He has done for us.

He almost seems to grasp the God of the bible here.

Nevertheless, if we do not reciprocate, the relationship He has begun will fall apart. Our calling and election are not certain without us doing our part. We can fall away and not make it into the Kingdom of God.

Thank God this is not true. If God left any of it to us what would happen? What do we do time and time again? Mess it up. We mess it up we mess it up, and then we mess it up some more.

Also I have to say this small phrase right here calls God a liar and takes from his glory. Saying you have any part of your salvation completely contradicts Philippians 1:6.

"being confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ."

The man has faith that God began the work, but he has no faith in Gods preserving work. Again I have to say it's almost blasphemous to try and take any credit for your salvation.

Why did Peter write this to the whole church (verse 1)? He wrote this because the church at the time was experiencing various apostasies (II Peter 2:3). False teachers were bringing into the church destructive doctrines to turn the people away.

Almost every epistle in the New Testament (not 1tim,2Tim or Titus) is written to a church, and in almost every book of the New Testament apostasy is mentioned.

Why would Satan put false teachers in the church if there was no chance for the people to fall away? If church members have eternal security, why waste his time on them? However, Satan himself knows that Christians do not have eternal security, and he tries his best to turn us into apostates. We can fall away!

He might be able to fall away but I can't. I have faith in Gods preserving work. This is just outrageous. It is very clear anyone who falls away was never a Christian to begin with.

Peter was writing in this atmosphere. The people in the first century church were living in a time of false teachings, false teachers and apostasy; and he needed to warn them. "For this reason I will not be negligent to remind you always of these things, though you know and are established in the present truth" (II Peter 1:12).

This, too, begs the question: Why did Peter command them to make their calling and election sure? If they had the truth, and he admitted that they were established in it, why did they have to make it "sure"? In making their calling and election sure, they would be doing the one thing that would keep them on the right path to the Kingdom. Christians keep themselves from falling into deception, error, and sin—keep themselves from apostatizing and losing their salvation—by validating their conversion.

Christians don't keep themselves from falling into sin or error only God does. Again where is your faith that all good things come from the Father?

When a thing is validated, it is objectively determined to be genuine, true, real, authentic, or legitimate. How do Christians validate their calling and election? The answer is simple. Jesus describes it in Matthew 7:16-20:

You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn-bushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

The way we validate our calling and election is by producing fruit. Jesus expounds on this in His Passover message in John 15:

I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away. And every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. . . . As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. . . . By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. (verses 1-2, 4-6, 8)

Again the question of weather or not our faith is genuine, that our salvation is sure, is only a question to us. God knows. He knows. It's only our own assurance we struggle to maintain, but if our faith is genuine you better believe God will reserve.

This blows the eternal security doctrine to smithereens. Our Savior, Jesus Christ—our Judge—says that if we do not bear fruit, God will take us away and throw us into the fire! If we bear fruit, however, we will glorify the Father and truly be disciples of Christ, that is, true Christians!

We validate our calling by growing in grace and knowledge (II Peter 3:18). If we are showing love to the brethren, if we are serving as opportunity permits, if we are deepening our relationship with God, we can be certain that our calling and election are still firmly in force.

Sorry Mr. you failed to blow anything to smithereens. You did however expose your lack of faith in Gods preserving work.

Assurance Through Growth

Peter closes his epistle with a stirring warning and call to action:

Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, since you know these things beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (II Peter 3:14-18)

Peter ends the epistle with the same thought with which he began: We live in spiritually dangerous times, and the way to stay on the beam is to keep on growing. If we grow, our salvation is assured. God is faithful; He has promised us salvation, and He will give it to us if we are faithful.

Wrong! He gives it to us and preserves our faith. Clearly the ones who "fall away" are not Christians at all.

1 John 2:19

They went out from us, but they didn't belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have continued with us. But they left, that they might be revealed that none of them belong to us.

Is it not obvious that when the bible refers to people leaving the faith they never really belonged? Their faith was not genuine.

And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard. . . . (Colossians 1:21-23)

Jesus Christ earnestly wants to present us holy, blameless, and irreproachable to the Father in His Kingdom, but we have a part to play too. These things will happen if we uphold our half of the covenant. We must continue in the faith. We must remain grounded and steadfast. We must keep on growing. We must continue in the hope of our resurrection and eternal life.

Again we have no part to play except opening ourselves to him. He does the rest, he produces our good works through us he makes us bear all the fruit. He has done it all already it is just unfolding exactly as he has planned.

We will do well not to take God's salvation for granted, thinking we have some kind of eternal security without obedience to God's way of life. Instead, let us all strive to make our calling and election sure!

Make your calling sure to yourself, but not to God. He knows one way or another. The doctrine of eternal security makes perfect sense with genuine faith in the Christ. With this genuine faith the doctrine of eternal security does the opposite of making us "take our salvation for granted", it gives us that deep deep love and appreciation for our God who has saved us once and for all.


In closing I would like to say I understand where this guys view comes from. Easy Beliefism has spawned all kinds of fake Christians who are sure to Apostatize when the hard times come. This is simply an overreaction, and it attacks sound doctrine, and doesn't give our perfect God the full glory he is due.

Word of life I hope you will consider my words, and not consider this an attack directed at you. As my sister I love you and just want you to know God as he is, and I want to make sure we all give him the credit he is due. That is my intent, so please do not feel attacked by this.

Romans 8:31-39

31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us?

32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?

33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.

34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?

36As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."

37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,

39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Word of Life]

Jculver, I certainly don't see your post as an attack on me, quite the opposite actually. I only want to hear Gods word and worship Him in spirit and truth.

I haven't read all your post, as I am at work at the moment, but I will go through it when I get home.

We are all here to help and assist our brother and sisters when one may be leading down the wrong path, so I thank you dearly for pointing those errors out. I have only been a Christian for just over a year now, so everything is still fairly new to me, so if one gives me a wack over the head, I will sit up straight will listen and take notice.

I will be unscribbing to that devotional, which gets emailed to me daily, as I don't think by reading them will be doing me any good.

I thank you brother for taking the time to give me such a detailed outline and response to my post.

And I agree with you, God gets the glory always.

 

[jculver]

Jculver, I certainly don't see your post as an attack on me, quite the opposite actually. I only want to hear Gods word and worship Him in spirit and truth.

I haven't read all your post, as I am at work at the moment, but I will go through it when I get home.

We are all here to help and assist our brother and sisters when one may be leading down the wrong path, so I thank you dearly for pointing those errors out. I have only been a Christian for just over a year now, so everything is still fairly new to me, so if one gives me a wack over the head, I will sit up straight will listen and take notice.

I will be unscribbing to that devotional, which gets emailed to me daily, as I don't think by reading them will be doing me any good.

I thank you brother for taking the time to give me such a detailed outline and response to my post.

And I agree with you, God gets the glory always.

Well there still are many people who disagree with me on this doctrine I just question that guys wording mainly, his ideas seem dangerous to me.
The intent of people who want to say you can loose your salvation is usually very good. They want the same thing we do, a church filled with true believers. I just have to say it's not necessary to attack eternal security to achieve this

Once you come to God in genuine understanding of your condition, with a broken heart, realizing your sins, and pray that he saves you, I truly believe he saves you once and for all. If your faith is genuine you can't fall away because he will keep you, he wont let you fall into that kind of practicing sin! He already gave you Christ; won’t he do whatever other littler things on the way to keep you saved? The good work He started in you, He will bring to completion.

Anyway I am still pretty new to being a Christian too, this just happens to be something I have really studied. I am really glad you didn't take this the wrong way I hope you have a good day at work

 

[Cody]

guys if we're goin to debate tha bible..do it out of love please

 

[jculver]

guys if we're goin to debate tha bible..do it out of love please

I think my debate was out of love... If you feel I was out of line feel free to express that to me. I wouldn't want a brother or sister to feel they couldn't argue with me over the word, because I need to be argued against when I'm wrong or I'll never see I'm wrong

It's not as if I was debating Word of Life directly. She posted an article and she may not even have agreed with everything in it anyway. There are other ways to debate against eternal security, it was simply the way the author was approaching it that really was worded dangerously I thought. His intentions are good as I have said previously, but I have to strongly disagree with the direction he took. Thats all

 

[Chad]

Once you come to God in genuine understanding of your condition, with a broken heart, realizing your sins, and pray that he saves you, I truly believe he saves you once and for all. If your faith is genuine you can't fall away because he will keep you, he wont let you fall into that kind of practicing sin! He already gave you Christ; won’t he do whatever other littler things on the way to keep you saved? The good work He started in you, He will bring to completion.

Amen brother! GOD's grace + genuine faith work hand in hand. Its His grace in Jesus that we receive salvation as a free gift and nothing else but His grace. Its our faith and obedience that assures us we will always be secure in Him. We've been warned to be obedient and not love the world's ways.

John 12:46-48 Amplified Bible

46I have come as a Light into the world, so that whoever believes in Me [whoever cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Me] may not continue to live in darkness.

47If anyone hears My teachings and fails to observe them [does not keep them, but disregards them], it is not I who judges him. For I have not come to judge and to condemn and to pass sentence and to inflict penalty on the world, but to save the world.

48Anyone who rejects Me and persistently sets Me at naught, refusing to accept My teachings, has his judge [however]; for the [very] message that I have spoken will itself judge and convict him at the last day.

guys if we're goin to debate tha bible..do it out of love please

Brother, who here is has done anything ungodly in their responses? They'd be banned quick if not publicly rebuked by me or another moderator. Everyone is being loving in their responses. Thank you all for that. Glory to GOD for His teachings

After a person is saved can their name be earased out of the book of life or is it eternal? I've been reading verses about this in Revelation. What is your view on this?

Read this link please...http://www.talkjesus.com/showthread.php?p=56876

 

[jculver]

Amen brother! GOD's grace + genuine faith work hand in hand. Its His grace in Jesus that we receive salvation as a free gift and nothing else but His grace. Its our faith and obedience that assures us we will always be secure in Him. We've been warned to be obedient and not love the world's ways.

John 12:46-48 Amplified Bible

46I have come as a Light into the world, so that whoever believes in Me [whoever cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Me] may not continue to live in darkness.

47If anyone hears My teachings and fails to observe them [does not keep them, but disregards them], it is not I who judges him. For I have not come to judge and to condemn and to pass sentence and to inflict penalty on the world, but to save the world.

48Anyone who rejects Me and persistently sets Me at naught, refusing to accept My teachings, has his judge [however]; for the [very] message that I have spoken will itself judge and convict him at the last day.



Brother, who here is has done anything ungodly in their responses? They'd be banned quick if not publicly rebuked by me or another moderator. Everyone is being loving in their responses. Thank you all for that. Glory to GOD for His teachings




Read this link

Cool article I feel I have to stress again that I think the people who say we can loose our salvation have the best intentions. They don't want practicing sinners running around professing to be Christians, and frankly niether do I. I am ashamed to say that is the backround I come from. The "free grace is a license to sin" type of Christian was me for a long time :X It took a seriously intense read of "Hard to Believe" by John Macarthur to bring me out. I would reccomend that book to anyone.

 

[Cody]

thanks for tha link Chad..i agree ....a preacher i talk to said this...The question is not about "once saved always saved" but "IF saved always saved."

 

[Word of Life]

That was an excellent article from gotquestions, it certainly has made things a lot more clearer to me.

Now going back to my other post, there are a lot more false teachers out in this world then ones thinks, which hurts me a lot, as these people really do think they are saved because of what they have been taught and don't know any better and have taken the ministers word for it.

Now the reason I have said this, because this has been bought close to home to me. My husband claimed to be Christian all the 13 years of us being married. But my husband was only truly saved 4 months ago, now that's shocking isn't it. This was certainly a real shock to him, because he really thought he had been saved all those years ago. The church that he went too, those many years ago only told him, that he only needed to accept Jesus as his savior and he was saved, and he would be going to eternity. He was never told about having babtism in the Holy Spirit. He honestly thought he was saved and that was the end of it. Its the Holy Spirit which saves us from sin. This is still taught today in some churches.

Now during the years of our marriage, we have had several discussions about certain cultures which he hated and I mean hated, and he could not forgive them for doing certain things etc. Also he said, even with his own children he would not forgive them, if they had or would do certain things that were wrong in life, well I just didn't understand how one who claimed to be a Christian could even think like that and I wasn't even saved myself at those times when we had those discussions.

Cutting a long story short as there are other personal issues involved, but early this year, me and my husband split up for about 2 months, he pleaded to have me back and I returned back to South Africa and I made it perfectly clear and told him I was following Christ and it was up to him. When I got back, I also explained to him about the Holy spirit and for what you have read above, he didn't know about being born in spirit. Well every day, my husband and I were in the bible, with him getting to know God and me getting to know God. In June this year, my husband was born in spirit. My husband is now a new person and see's all people in a totally different light, there is no hatred towards anyone or any culture now and he is as eager as I am to spread the word to the unsaved. He has also now joined a cell group and commited himself to being a disciple for Jesus.

Now the reason, I put this up here, if I had not been born in spirit, I probably would have gone off and had an affair, my mind wanted one thing but my heart was saying something completely different. That is the bottom line to it. God helped me and stopped me, God worked through me to help my husband, I could have done something completely wrong and destroyed my marriage. God told me to get back to South Africa and sort it out. It was extremely hard for me to get back on that plane, because I didn't want to go back, but God was with me all the way, comforted me and guided me all through this. I could have not have got through this without Him, its that simple.

My husband and I, are still together and we are working out a marriage problems, we have a long way to go yet. God is with us and God comes first and we both know that.

 

[jculver]

That was an excellent article from gotquestions, it certainly has made things a lot more clearer to me.

Now going back to my other post, there are a lot more false teachers out in this world then ones thinks, which hurts me a lot, as these people really do think they are saved because of what they have been taught and don't know any better and have taken the ministers word for it.

Now the reason I have said this, because this has been bought close to home to me. My husband claimed to be Christian all the 13 years of us being married. But my husband was only truly saved 4 months ago, now that's shocking isn't it. This was certainly a real shock to him, because he really thought he had been saved all those years ago. The church that he went too, those many years ago only told him, that he only needed to accept Jesus as his savior and he was saved, and he would be going to eternity. He was never told about having babtism in the Holy Spirit. He honestly thought he was saved and that was the end of it. Its the Holy Spirit which saves us from sin. This is still taught today in some churches.

Now during the years of our marriage, we have had several discussions about certain cultures which he hated and I mean hated, and he could not forgive them for doing certain things etc. Also he said, even with his own children he would not forgive them, if they had or would do certain things that were wrong in life, well I just didn't understand how one who claimed to be a Christian could even think like that and I wasn't even saved myself at those times when we had those discussions.

Cutting a long story short as there are other personal issues involved, but early this year, me and my husband split up for about 2 months, he pleaded to have me back and I returned back to South Africa and I made it perfectly clear and told him I was following Christ and it was up to him. When I got back, I also explained to him about the Holy spirit and for what you have read above, he didn't know about being born in spirit. Well every day, my husband and I were in the bible, with him getting to know God and me getting to know God. In June this year, my husband was born in spirit. My husband is now a new person and see's all people in a totally different light, there is no hatred towards anyone or any culture now and he is as eager as I am to spread the word to the unsaved. He has also now joined a cell group and commited himself to being a disciple for Jesus.

Now the reason, I put this up here, if I had not been born in spirit, I probably would have gone off and had an affair, my mind wanted one thing but my heart was saying something completely different. That is the bottom line to it. God helped me and stopped me, God worked through me to help my husband, I could have done something completely wrong and destroyed my marriage. God told me to get back to South Africa and sort it out. It was extremely hard for me to get back on that plane, because I didn't want to go back, but God was with me all the way, comforted me and guided me all through this. I could have not have got through this without Him, its that simple.

My husband and I, are still together and we are working out a marriage problems, we have a long way to go yet. God is with us and God comes first and we both know that.

Well with God at the center of your marriage now I just don't think it can go wrong. There is no problem you wont get through. Really this story is great and should be celebrated Your husband is saved now and that is just fantastic!

Whats strange is in June thats when I became a true Christian myself. I think maybe God is getting sick of that easy beliefism in the church. I ran around doing whatever I wanted to, and all of it was sinful. Luckily I got pulled out of that. My situation now is just filled with pieces of things from living in my sinful way. Things are coming up that I simply do not know how to deal with now that I am a Christian. I have faith with God they will get worked out, just like I have faith that with God at the center of your marriage there is no way it can fail.

I have never really been to South Africa so I don't know how bad the false teachers problem is, but it has been a huge problem here in America for as long as I have been alive. I think it has always been that way. Many books of the new testament mentions false teachers and apostasy, and deal with those issues. I love the verse in Jude that says even those false teachers, or those following them can still be "pulled from the fire". God is so forgiving it just crushes me. They can still be saved, and that is the good news

Satan is celever. He isn't going to put a sign that says "Hell" on the broad road. He puts a sign that says "Heaven".

 

[Word of Life]

I am very happy to hear jculver, that you have now been truly saved. God is wonderful, thats for sure.

And I will tell you from my heart, where people go wrong, people tend to follow mans rules and you now have religion instead of God.

Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me

I think maybe God is getting sick of that easy beliefism in the church. I ran around doing whatever I wanted to, and all of it was sinful.

You see, that church probably told you, which is right in scripture, God will always forgive you for your sins. Which is correct in scripture, but they forgot to mention these scriptures too.

Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

He will not condemn us, but He is also saying sin no more. When you are born in spirit you won't want to sin, or at least battling and trying not to sin.

I also did a study on water babtism and babtism in spirit this week, that was very interesting and would recommend one doing that study.