But When...

[Sue J Love]

Friday, June 30, 2017, 5:58 a.m. – The Lord Jesus put in mind the song “When in The Stillness.” Speak, Lord, your words to my heart. I read Titus 3:1-11 (Select vv. ESV).

Every Good Work (vv. 1-2)

Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people.​

We are always to be in submission to rulers and authorities EXCEPT when they ask us to deny our Lord, disobey God’s Word, compromise scripture, stop speaking in Jesus’ name, or stop preaching the fullness of the gospel, or when they command us to bow to the beast or to false gods, or if they try to convince us to follow false teaching. And, we have to keep in mind here that all this may not be all that obvious. Satan is very subtle when he tries to convince us to deny our Lord, so if we don’t know the Word of God, and if we are easily persuaded, we might be convinced to compromise truth while being manipulated into believing we are doing good. So, be wise, be discerning, know the truth, and follow God’s Word, not men.

We are to be ready for every good work that is of God, or that is not in conflict with his perfect will for our lives. In other words, God used to chide his people because they gave sacrifices to him of their own choosing while they ignored his commands, and while they did what was wicked. In other words, God is not interested in our “good deeds” if they are apart from obedience to him, or while we are willfully continuing to sin against him by doing what is evil in his eyes. “Good” is what is right in God’s eyes, or what is in line with his will for our lives, so if we want to do “good deeds” we need to be walking in the Spirit, doing what pleases God, and seeking his will.

Regarding not speaking evil of anyone, it means “refusing to acknowledge good (worthy of respect, veneration); hence, to blaspheme which reverses moral values; to use abusive or scurrilous” (insulting) “language about” (1). This is not to say we cannot expose the fruitless deeds of darkness nor warn against those who are teaching what is false. Those who are false teachers, who are manipulating naïve minds, will use the Word of God in their favor and against those who are preaching the truth, by taking the Word out of context. They will do this to try to convince the naïve never to challenge what they teach, and this often results in people following cultish leaders. Yet, in all we do, we should be kind, considerate and not argumentative.

What We Were (v. 3)

For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another.​

We can become overly critical of others over things that don’t really matter, or excessively judgmental of others when they sin, when we forget God’s amazing grace in our own lives, and we overlook where we once were ourselves. Or, we may find ourselves judging others hypocritically over things we are guilty of doing ourselves, or we may be guilty of judging others harshly because of unforgiveness and bitterness of heart. Yet, there is a place and a time to judge sin in sinful humans, but it should be for the purpose to restore them to a right relationship with God, and to do so humbly, sincerely, lovingly, and gently (See: Jas. 5:20; Gal. 6:1).

According to His Mercy (vv. 4-7)

But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.​

Not only should we not lose sight of the reason why Jesus died on a cross, which was to save us out of our sins, because we were born into sin, but if we would keep his grace to us in mind, it should help us to be more loving, forgiving and kind toward others. The reason for this is that we did nothing to earn or deserve our own salvation. No works of our own flesh profited us anything towards gaining God’s grace. So, we have no reason to ever feel superior to anyone else, as though we did something to merit God’s grace. It was only because of God’s goodness to us that any of us can be delivered out of slavery to sin, and be set free to walk in holiness before our God.

Stirring up Dissension (vv. 9-11)

But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.​

Those who stir up division within the body of Christ are those who stir up conflict, disunity, opposition and/or rebellion in conflict with the Word of God, in opposition to God’s structure for the church (his body), or who are gossips, those who love to argue (for the sport of it), or those who revel in stirring up trouble in order to interrupt and distract from God’s holy work.

Now, the reality of this in today’s church, particularly here in America, is that those who are causing this division can be the pastors, elders, or other leaders within the church. They are dividing the church by leading their congregations to follow men over God, and by teaching what is in conflict with God’s Holy Word. And, those they accuse of being disunifiers are often those who are actually following and teaching the Word of God, the gospel of our salvation, in its fullness. Most often the calls for “unity” within the local church are calls for unity with man, and with man-made teaching and business (marketing) schemes, but that is in conflict with God’s Word.

So, we need to be very discerning about this, so that we don’t fall into error, because “unity” is a buzz word used both within the global government (New World Order), leading up to the rule of the beast, and within many localized church congregations being led by those who have bowed to this beast, or who are deceived and being led astray themselves. And, their goal is to lead people away from pure devotion to Jesus Christ, away from the pure Word of Truth, and to lead them to what is false - to a false gospel which gives a false hope of salvation to those who are still lost in their sins. So, beware!

When in The Stillness / An Original Work / September 26, 2011

When in the stillness of this moment,
Speak to me, Lord, I humbly pray.
Be my desire, set me on fire,
Teach me to love always.
Help me to walk in fellowship with You,
Listening to You; sit at Your feet.
Whisper Your words to me,
Oh, how gently, guiding me in Your truth.

While we are waiting for Your blessing,
Lord, in our hearts be King today.
Help us to live for you ev’ry moment,
List’ning to what You say.
May we not stray from your word within us,
Help us obey You, Lord, in all things,
Walking each moment, Lord, in Your presence,
Our offerings to You bring.

Help us to love You, Lord, our master;
Be an example of Your love,
Helping the hurting, lift up the fallen,
Showing them Your great love.
Teach them to love You, follow You always,
Bearing their cross and turning from sin;
Walking in daily fellowship with You,
Making You Lord and King.

Resources:

(1) Strong's Greek: 987. βλασφημέω (blasphémeó) -- to slander, hence to speak lightly or profanely of sacred things

 

[Lanolin]

I've noticed that happening in nz churches too. Sue did you come across a book called The purpose driven life or the purpose driven church? Basically its. manual for pastors to become CEO of thair church using man made business practices to 'drive' it.

 

[Sue J Love]

I've noticed that happening in nz churches too. Sue did you come across a book called The purpose driven life or the purpose driven church? Basically its. manual for pastors to become CEO of thair church using man made business practices to 'drive' it.

Yes. I will respond more later on that subject. Family time now.

 

[Sue J Love]

I've noticed that happening in nz churches too. Sue did you come across a book called The purpose driven life or the purpose driven church? Basically its. manual for pastors to become CEO of thair church using man made business practices to 'drive' it.

@Lanolin - Yes. In 1999 my husband and I and family were looking for a church fellowship that would minister to the needs of our college age adult children, and where we could minister to that age group. So, we started going to one, and we went through their 101 class, and the material from the class was from Rick Warren. That was the first we were exposed to his teaching. On the surface, it seemed biblical. That church didn't work out for us, so we went to another one, and we went through their 101 class, and we realized they were also teaching the same material, even though they tried to make it sound as though it was their original material.

To make a long story short, through a series of unfortunate circumstances, we ended up trying several different churches, and they were all following Rick Warren's Purpose Driven Church material. But, I don't think it was until 2004 or after that we finally came to realize the full extent of what R. Warren and his Purpose Driven message was really all about. But, it soon became quite clear that churches across America, and cross-denominational, had been smitten by him, and that they had mostly all gotten on his train. And, it was then that I noticed how so many Evangelical churches, which used to preach the full gospel, were now watering down the message to make it appealing to the people of the world, and how they were marketing the church to the world, as though it was big business, and how many were using the flesh (sensuality, etc.) to attract the flesh of man to the "church," which had been turned into a business, just like any other business.

R. Warren teaches a lot of things right, but it is a mixed bag of truth and lies. He is also trying to promote world peace and working with people across religions to make the world a "better place," and he has agreed to not try to win any of them to Jesus Christ, which should be what he is about, if he is a minister of the gospel. I believe he is a tool of Satan used to destroy the church, and it has worked. I believe he is part of the movement toward a one world religion, where we agree to get rid of all that divides us as the people of the world so that we can join hands across the globe and sing "Kumbaya." It is about denying our Lord and his word, and compromising with the world in order to make "peace," but it is a false peace, for it will lead to destruction.

 

[Sue J Love]

I've noticed that happening in nz churches too. Sue did you come across a book called The purpose driven life or the purpose driven church? Basically its. manual for pastors to become CEO of thair church using man made business practices to 'drive' it.

(This is NOT an endorsement of the producers of this video or of all its content.)

 

[Hekuran]

@Sue J Love - you quote Paul saying speak evil of no-one, and a couple of posts later describe someone as 'a tool of Satan'. Do you see a conflict here?

 

[Lanolin]

I dont know him personally as only been going to church since 2011, but I saw his books in church, Ive tried to get rid of them but they had heaps of copies of them, a church member was saying everyone had to do his program they had no choice about it. She said she didnt like it as it was so american, so everyone just kind of suffered through it.

I read his book and it reminded me of when you go into an organisation and it goes through a 'change management' or restructure. I think it tried to remove Jesus as head of the church and replace it with whoever is pastor. But it lets in pastors who are really wolves. Basically Mr Warrens opus murandi was to make money, he congratulated himself thats hes pastoring the rich orange country area of america, and that he doesnt have to really pastor at all, just tell people to give money. After I read this book I was going to chuck it in the bin what an egotistical, selfish man, using the Lords name in vain and sugarcoating the gospel to make himself rich.

 

[Lanolin]

@Sue J Love - you quote Paul saying speak evil of no-one, and a couple of posts later describe someone as 'a tool of Satan'. Do you see a conflict here?

She's talking about someone who has compromised the gospel. This is an exception, read her post again.
In the bible there are warnings about false teachers that we must heed.

Not everyone in authority is meant to be there...some people have crept and or wormed their way to the top. In my area there was a principal of an intemediate school who had PORN on his computer. You think those children at his school are safe when the principal is viewing porn?! Its evil!!! He was dismissed but it had to take the police to remove him, they couldnt just fire him since he was the boss.

 

[Sue J Love]

@Sue J Love - you quote Paul saying speak evil of no-one, and a couple of posts later describe someone as 'a tool of Satan'. Do you see a conflict here?

If you read the whole post, I went into detail on what it means to speak no evil and how that doesnt mean not exposing false teachers or fruitless deeds of darkness, otherwise Jesus, his apostles and the prophets of old would all be guilty of speaking evil of others.

 

[Hekuran]

She's talking about someone who has compromised the gospel. This is an exception, read her post again.
In the bible there are warnings about false teachers that we must heed.

Not everyone in authority is meant to be there...some people have crept and or wormed their way to the top. In my area there was a principal of an intemediate school who had PORN on his computer. You think those children at his school are safe when the principal is viewing porn?! Its evil!!! He was dismissed but it had to take the police to remove him, they couldnt just fire him since he was the boss.

Paul doesn't make an exception.

 

[Hekuran]

If you read the whole post, I went into detail on what it means to speak no evil and how that doesnt mean not exposing false teachers or fruitless deeds of darkness, otherwise Jesus, his apostles and the prophets of old would all be guilty of speaking evil of others.

Calling a Christian pastor a tool of Satan is intemperate divisive language. There are legitimate criticisms to be made of the Purpose Driven Church approach, and of the influence of marketing and management techniques in church growth. I don't think there is any place for speaking of others like this.

 

[Sue J Love]

Calling a Christian pastor a tool of Satan is intemperate divisive language. There are legitimate criticisms to be made of the Purpose Driven Church approach, and of the influence of marketing and management techniques in church growth. I don't think there is any place for speaking of others like this.

There is a whole lot more to this than what you have suggested. Did you view the video?

 

[Hekuran]

I saw the first 25 minutes of the video.

I haven't suggested anything. I am saying as clearly and directly as I can that this is not an appropriate way to speak of other Christians.

 

[Sue J Love]

I saw the first 25 minutes of the video.

I haven't suggested anything. I am saying as clearly and directly as I can that this is not an appropriate way to speak of other Christians.

Just because someone claims to be a Christian or a preacher does not mean he is what he claims. Consider these scriptures:

I wish you would bear with me in a little foolishness. Do bear with me! 2 For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. 3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. 2 Co. 11:1-4

And what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds. 2 Co. 11:12-15

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,[a] 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,[c] 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thess. 2:1-12

 

[Lanolin]

Hmm well..Jesus did call Judas a man of perdition and he was his disciple...so...just because someone is a christian pastor doesnt mean satan can't use or influence someone like that...because there are wolves in sheeps clothings.

Wolves destroy sheep...and they do creep in unawares. That is their modus operandi. Paul did warn the church and he even called alexander the coppersmith evil, as well people like jannes and jambres. Oh and demterius. Actually quite a few were named in his letters. Because Paul loved the church enough to warn them.

 

[Sue J Love]

Hmm well..Jesus did call Judas a man of perdition and he was his disciple...so...just because someone is a christian pastor doesnt mean satan can't use or influence someone like that...because there are wolves in sheeps clothings.

Wolves destroy sheep...and they do creep in unawares. That is their modus operandi. Paul did warn the church and he even called alexander the coppersmith evil, as well people like jannes and jambres. Oh and demterius. Actually quite a few were named in his letters. Because Paul loved the church enough to warn them.

Yes. John 10 talks about that. That is where I am reading this morning.

 

[amadeus2]

@Sue J Love @Hekuran @Lanolin
"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. " Rom 9:13

God hated Esau because the heart of Esau was seen by God. Whose heart do we see as clearly?

As Sue said the man questioned here did teach a "mixed bag" contain some parts that were right. How many teachers, preachers, pastors, etc. teach it as right as Jesus did? None in my experience, but there have been some that I could not tolerate and some that I could not recommend to others. Still this doesn't mean I would carelessly open my mouth to condemn them. But, if God were to put the words in my mouth, what else could I do?

What was it that the Apostle Paul did here?

"Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme." I Tim 1:19-20

And then there is this:

Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
Ecc 3:7 ...a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;"

God is the One who always knows when it is time to keep silence or time to speak. When Jesus spoke He always spoke His Father's Word and remained silent when that was the will of His Father. Can we not always do the same? We can even if we do not always do it.

God hated the final result of Esau, but we cannot, unless we know Esau as God knew Esau. We can and should of course, hate a particular error of a person which God has shown us, but that does not mean we are to reject the person completely unless God has told us to do so:

"And the LORD said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel?..." I Sam 16:1

Even in this rejection of Saul, the man still had hope, but NOT as a king of Israel. We might come to the point where we must reject a man as a minister of God, but he may still have hope of being a child of God.

Have I muddied the waters? I was hoping to clarify.

 

[Lanolin]

@amadeus2 the thing with esau is he could have been blessed but he did give up the blessing for a 'mess of pottage' he was thinking of his belly more than God, and he married a caananite woman so went against his dad's wishes. He couldnt receive the original blessing even though he sought it with tears. Jacob was still friends with Esau though in terms of being his brother, but they went their separate ways.

So if we see people do that in the church that is Esau like behaviour this is what God doesn't like, and it does show what his heart is like. I dont think Sue was meaning to condemn anyone but they made their own choice to disobey God...we just cannot follow people who do that. Its just not healthy for our walk.

 

[amadeus2]

@amadeus2 the thing with esau is he could have been blessed but he did give up the blessing for a 'mess of pottage' he was thinking of his belly more than God, and he married a caananite woman so went against his dad's wishes. He couldnt receive the original blessing even though he sought it with tears. Jacob was still friends with Esau though in terms of being his brother, but they went their separate ways.

So if we see people do that in the church that is Esau like behaviour this is what God doesn't like, and it does show what his heart is like. I dont think Sue was meaning to condemn anyone but they made their own choice to disobey God...we just cannot follow people who do that. Its just not healthy for our walk.

No, I am certain that Sue was not pointing fingers at people with condemnation in mind. I've been reading her posts for a long while now, and she stays very close to God in what she writes. As to Esau, God was able to say that He hated Esau, because He really knew Esau. We, none of us, knows anyone like God knows them, so we must be more careful. But being careful does not mean ignoring whatever it is that God tells us to do.

 

[Lanolin]

Thats right I do know, from personal experience, that people can be deceived about other peoples relationship with God in that many can pretend to be christians yet still try and drag you down the wrong path.

God doesnt like it when people do that and He is able to see right though that...if we ask for wisdom we can see that in other people too so we wont be deceived and it does take discernment.