Can God Die ?

[AntonGoldnagel]

We are told "One of the foundational Christian doctrines is that Jesus is God." It is called a synchronous mystery.
Synchronous means "happening at the same time". Mystery means that no one can explain it.
Whilst reading the the book of Romans I came across following statement Rom 10:9 ..".God hath raised him (Jesus) from the dead."..this brought to mind the foundational Christian doctrines mentioned above and my attempt to understand this paradox, and to reconcile it with Rom. 10:9.
According to the doctrine, "Jesus is God" the question begs an answer, who died on the cross ?
Can God die ?
This concept flies in the face of half a dozen scriptures. If you read the Bible you know most of them.
Did God raise Himself from the dead? according to God's word the dead are conscious of nothing and incapable of any action (Ecc9:5).
Was it just a ""pretend" death ?
How can anyone reconstruct a unique dead almighty God ? Wouldn't that one have to be even more powerful than God?
Alternatively did just a third of God die or if we follow the new doctrine did half of God die ? In that case the new bothersome question is can someone be half or a third dead and still be dead ?
Maybe a person smarter than I am can answer these question, I certainly can't.

 

[B-A-C]

Most Christian doctrines say that Jesus was fully God and fully human.

Only the human part of Jesus died. He was resurrected and came back to life.
But the God part of Him never died. In fact He was busy during those three days.

Eph 4:8 Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
Eph 4:9 (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)

Col 2:15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

There is another doctrine ( not all Christians believe this ) that says when you die, your soul/spirit immediately goes
to heaven or hell. So you're never really "dead". Only your physical body is dead. But eventually you will get a new body.

 

[Rhema]

Unfortunately @AntonGoldnagel, your topic is a subset of the overall Doctrine of the Trinity. And the Trinity in this forum is pretty much verboten to discuss.

The assertion that "Jesus was fully God and fully human" just strikes me as people making up ridiculous excuses to avoid a very important and difficult discussion. It's an assertion that has no scriptural basis - just conjecture.

I have a completely different take on the entire matter, one that satisfies all scriptural claims without contradiction, but again, I'd rather avoid the very real danger of being banned for posting on the Trinity.

Kindly,
Rhema

PS: Sorry @B-A-C I just saw your post. My second paragraph is rather coincidental.

 

[Rhema]

Only the human part of Jesus died.

So Jesus was only half-dead? Not trying to be a jerk here, (as it seems to come naturally).

But the God part of Him never died. In fact He was busy during those three days.

Eph 4:8 Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
Eph 4:9 (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)

And yet there's a rather valid interpretation that since Jesus was in heaven when He gave gifts to men, the "ascended on high" meant His ascension into heaven (bit of a no-brainer). Therefore the "descent" just meant here to earth, the lower parts Not being indicative of Sheol.

So what to make of the "lower parts" (κατωτερα μερη G3313)?

I provide a LINK to the Liddell Scott Lexicon for μέρος G3313 -

A. share, portion ​

2. considerations of rank or family​

Jesus descended to the lower classes. While truly being known as having descended from the Royal line of David, and hence of the Royal heritage (μέρος), the ministry of Jesus was that of servitude to the poor, downtrodden and destitute - the lower classes (κατωτερα μερη) of the earth.

Sometimes theological tradition mixed with irrational religious exuberance blots out the rather common understanding of the Greek text.

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Maybe a person smarter than I am can answer these question, I certainly can't.

@AntonGoldnagel. what the hey. I'll risk being banned for you.

Jesus was 100% human. Completely and totally human. BUT, ALL of God, that could possibly become human did so, and he is called Jesus.

In essence, the personality of the man we know as Jesus was a doubling of the personality of the Father. The Father did indeed take on human flesh, as a complete and total human. AND as a separate person. (I am no Modalist.)

To that extent, Jesus was the Father (an equal representation of the personality of the Father) in human form (having a human body) and was a man.

Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:​

(Acts 13:38 KJV)

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;​

(1 Timothy 2:5 KJV)

Now maybe there's a different viewpoint, but it's not the one that was revealed to me.

God bless,
Rhema


@Christ4Ever - Let me know if this violates any terms, but I would be quick to point out that the doctrines expressed above teach the divinity of the Messiah.

 

[B-A-C]

The Father did indeed take on human flesh, as a complete and total human. AND as a separate person. (I am no Modalist.)

In your opinion, what exactly is the difference between this and modalism?

 

[Christ4Ever]

@Christ4Ever - Let me know if this violates any terms, but I would be quick to point out that the doctrines expressed above teach the divinity of the Messiah.

"We may remove or modify any Content submitted at any time, with or without cause, with or without notice. Requests for Content to be removed or modified will be undertaken only at our discretion.

We may terminate your access to all or any part of the Service at any time, with or without cause, with or without notice."

I do believe this is the part of the Terms & Rules that apply.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Rhema]

In your opinion, what exactly is the difference between this and modalism?

Within Modalism there is only ever one personality (person).

I see Jesus as a separate person apart from the Father.

Hope that helps.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

I do believe this is the part of the Terms & Rules that apply.

Grr... That actually doesn't tell me if I've stepped over a line or not.

Martin Luther nearly drove himself insane because he could never be sure if he did enough works so he could claim salvation (avoiding purgatory).

Thanks Nick.
Rhema

 

[Christ4Ever]

Grr... That actually doesn't tell me if I've stepped over a line or not.

Martin Luther nearly drove himself insane because he could never be sure if he did enough works so he could claim salvation (avoiding purgatory).

Thanks Nick.
Rhema

lol
That you may know, if you feel a bit "Grr...", you need look no further than the nearest object that will provide you a reflection.

I'm uncertain whether Martin Luther had objections to burning heretics at the stake, but in today's world, he would likely be quite busy, and I might find myself on that list, if such a list existed, and might even feel himself to be overworked.

Anymore on this and you'll have to PM me.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[KingJ]

We are told "One of the foundational Christian doctrines is that Jesus is God." It is called a synchronous mystery.
Synchronous means "happening at the same time". Mystery means that no one can explain it.
Whilst reading the the book of Romans I came across following statement Rom 10:9 ..".God hath raised him (Jesus) from the dead."..this brought to mind the foundational Christian doctrines mentioned above and my attempt to understand this paradox, and to reconcile it with Rom. 10:9.
According to the doctrine, "Jesus is God" the question begs an answer, who died on the cross ?
Can God die ?
This concept flies in the face of half a dozen scriptures. If you read the Bible you know most of them.
Did God raise Himself from the dead? according to God's word the dead are conscious of nothing and incapable of any action (Ecc9:5).
Was it just a ""pretend" death ?
How can anyone reconstruct a unique dead almighty God ? Wouldn't that one have to be even more powerful than God?
Alternatively did just a third of God die or if we follow the new doctrine did half of God die ? In that case the new bothersome question is can someone be half or a third dead and still be dead ?
Maybe a person smarter than I am can answer these question, I certainly can't.

Nobody dies. We are all spiritual creations.

Death in scripture is used to describe a state in sin and out of God's presence and or death of your flesh only.

A verse like Ecc 9:5 is not to be taken literally. It is figurative. ''The dead cannot impact your current life''. Jesus describes literal fact of the dead in Luke 16:19-31.

There is a difference between death and cease to exist which is what would happen when God destroys your spirit. The 'real' you. Jesus died a physical death only.

--------------------------------

A VERY important fact to grasp is that physical death is not to be written off as an insignificant event. When living only in a physical body from birth, you feel one with it and it will feel as though you will cease to exist when you lay it down. This is why scripture says the greatest act of love possible is to lay your life down (the life you currently have) John 15:13.

 

[Dave M]

according to God's word the dead are conscious of nothing and incapable of any action (Ecc9:5).

Not addressing the whole topic, just focusing in on this wrong interpretation of scripture.

The book of revelation shows clearly people who are dead, and are praising God who got killed in the tribulation. We also have people under the thrown of God who died for Jesus asking when God will avenge there death, an of course we have the famous story of Abraham bosom most are familiar with. We have many example all through the OT and NT that make it clear people die on earth in there physical bodies, and have conscious after words.

Revelation 7:14​

I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 6:10​

They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

Luke 16:19-31​

“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. ..

I will add one thing about your post in general, some things have to be revealed to us by God himself they can not be learned with the human mind. This is why seeking God must be are number most important priority in life, we must value seeking God and knowing him above all else, as we do this he will revel more and more truth.

 

[Rhema]

Nobody dies. We are all spiritual creations.

Not what Jesus said.

'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.​

(Matthew 10:28 YLT)

Not just the body, but even the soul CAN be killed.

I provide a LINK the Liddell Scott Lexicon for "destroy"

A. destroy utterly, kill​

B. perish, die, cease to exist​

I think it rather important to accept what is actually written, than be led astray by the theological traditions of men.

But many will defend their traditions into the very pit of hell.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

A verse like Ecc 9:5 is not to be taken literally. It is figurative. ''The dead cannot impact your current life''.

Isn't it wonderful that we have you to tell us what the Bible is really supposed to say?


(And how it doesn't mean what it actually says?)

Schöne,
Rhema

Did God say?

 

[Rhema]

We have many example all through the OT and NT that make it clear people die on earth in there physical bodies, and have conscious after words.

Other than the three examples you gave that are obviously meant to be taken as allegorical stories rather than statements of fact, what else did you have in mind?

We have this account -

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.​

(Matthew 27:52-53 KJV)

So did God purposefully jerk them away from contentedly floating on their comfortable clouds in heaven (while dead) and stuff them back into a rotted corpse (or hopefully a resuscitated corpse) or were they dead-dead (which all dead people are) and had the unfortunate kismet of being too close to Resurrection power? (And then where did they go?)

I'm not denying the account, but I do wonder just how the saints were recognized.

That said, we know the actual location of those graves that were opened by the earthquake and even have pictures.

My point is that nothing in this passage, which describes a factual event, indicates that any of these dead came back from heaven.

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[KingJ]

Not what Jesus said.

'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.​

(Matthew 10:28 YLT)

Not just the body, but even the soul CAN be killed.

I provide a LINK the Liddell Scott Lexicon for "destroy"

A. destroy utterly, kill​

B. perish, die, cease to exist​

I think it rather important to accept what is actually written, than be led astray by the theological traditions of men.

But many will defend their traditions into the very pit of hell.

Rhema

Perhaps, first let everyone know that you are an annihilationist that reads scripture with a bias and completely ignores all scripture that states eternal punishment of the wicked.

See, it helps to know what people believe. Their core beliefs.

Just fyi, just like Calvinists, BEFORE anyone should ever take an annihilationist seriously, they need to make a case for how the phrase ''accept me or die'' is evidence of free will OR how no free will is evidence of a good God.

As, scripture is rather CRYSTAL clear that God is good Psalm 136:1, righteous Psalm 145:17 and gives us free will 1 Tim 2:4, Matt 25:46.

 

[Dave M]

Other than the three examples you gave that are obviously meant to be taken as allegorical stories rather than statements of fact, what else did you have in mind?

Samuel in the OT

Other than the three examples you gave that are obviously meant to be taken as allegorical stories rather than statements of fact, what else did you have in mind?

We have this account -

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.​

(Matthew 27:52-53 KJV)

So did God purposefully jerk them away from contentedly floating on their comfortable clouds in heaven (while dead) and stuff them back into a rotted corpse (or hopefully a resuscitated corpse) or were they dead-dead (which all dead people are) and had the unfortunate kismet of being too close to Resurrection power? (And then where did they go?)

I'm not denying the account, but I do wonder just how the saints were recognized.

That said, we know the actual location of those graves that were opened by the earthquake and even have pictures.

My point is that nothing in this passage, which describes a factual event, indicates that any of these dead came back from heaven.

Kindly,
Rhema

interesting, I have always wondered about that verse, we could also ask the same question about Lazarus who Lord Jesus brought back to life.

The example I gave I do take literal, I also take Samuel coming back from the grave to talk to Saul as literal and I do not believe he was in Body but in spirit when he came back..

Just my beliefs,

 

[B-A-C]

Within Modalism there is only ever one personality (person).

I see Jesus as a separate person apart from the Father.

Modalists would say the same thing. When He is Dr Jekyll, He is not Mr Hyde in any way.

 

[B-A-C]

Martin Luther nearly drove himself insane

Now there's a subjective statement.

 

[B-A-C]

'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.(Matthew 10:28 YLT)

There are "destroyed" air-craft, tanks and ships in and around Europe. They are destroyed, but they exist.
You can climb on them, and even get inside one or two of them.