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can one believe the bible and teach science

xDICEx

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Joined
Dec 15, 2005
Messages
293
NA Replication, mRNA Transcription, and The inter complexity of nucleic polymer and protein synthesis as evidence of the Cell Principle
by Dan G. Blaine

Updated and edited: 11/03/14

The Cell Principal from the time of Robert Hooke (1665), Mathias Schleiden (1838), and Theodore Schwann (1839) until now in biology has been: First, "That all living things are made up of living units called cells and cell products," and Second, "That all cells come from pre-existing cells."1 That this fundamental observation of early biologists is apparently contradicted by the fundamental assumption of entrenched evolution (that cells evolved by random chance out of decomposition and solution of inorganic elements in the primordial sea.) is not widely admitted in current literature, education, or the sciences. The notion that simple cells products just might spontaneously evolve in some primordial environment, and that, then given great amounts of time, could also randomly assemble erecting themselves into more complex forms, forms to which the cell principal might then apply to, is today's approved dogma policed by evolutionary zealots.

That notion, perhaps, seemed credible between 1860 and the mid1900's, but since the 1950's, with the advances in molecular biology, it seems obviously outdated and unduly ridged. As microscopy advanced with resolutions down into the angstrom scale and techniques that cryogenically paused molecular operations in process, the observational field in biology made a quantum leap. While those techniques combined with the DNA structural breakthroughs of Watson and Crick in 1953, molecular research and cytology uncovered a greater complexity than previously imagined. There is no such thing as a simple cell. This paper addresses a rather tiny portion of that complexity, perhaps a 10 billionth part, if that, and yet, this little part's complexity, as complexly as we now know it to be, is far beyond the mythic simplicity didactic evolution required. Though much systematic, descriptive, and analytic elaboration has been reported, there are more questions and mysteries than ever before. The ounces coming to be known provoke tons of research into that now questioned. As always research science outpaces classroom political correctness.

What do we know? A simple statement of the DNA/RNA/Protein inter complexity is: Precision DNA polymers and precision molecular protein machines make RNA strands, and these precision strands working together with other precision protein machines make protein and protein machines. Copying DNA is incredibly complex, and yet it has to be done to perpetuate life. The instructions for making the protein machines are encoded in the DNA, which code is useless without the machines; of course the machines cannot be made without the instructions in the DNA. The precise sequential encoding and sequential protein construction involved in this process is in the order of tens of thousands, if not millions. The most obvious inference in this chicken and egg scenario is the confirmation of the research driven Cell Principal, and an equal rejection of the assumption driven Evolution Principal. Only a living cell and cell products can do the work and make the things of living cells: all eukaryote RNA has come from pre-existing DNA and all Protein machines from pre-existing machines. The first cells had it all, because it's obviously all or nothing. And the mathematical probability of systems randomly ordered this complexly is virtually zero. This is the current scientific evidence, and it is evidence of design and intelligent rapid construction and confirms the thesis that these organisms must have been made complete from the start, and moreover, each according to its kind. Many individual elements in these machines, code carriers, and the cells that contain them have very short half-lives in nature and thus set time limits on the construction techniques needed to assemble them. Time, deep time or otherwise, rather than being an allowing factor of possible random assembly (as assumed in evolution), is actually the destroyer and disallowing factor that insures the decomposition of the parts in any assembly process that exceeds their half life viability as parts. This later is the known results of the experimental data and the biggest obstacle to laboratory synthesis.

Helicase and polymerase are two of the complex machines involved in replicating DNA and transcribing DNA into RNA. Next to these are the ribosomes, bi-structural protein complexes that read the messenger RNA (mRNA) strands and construct the encoded protein structures out of their individual amino acid parts gathered up by their individual transfer RNA (tRNA) carriers. The ribosomes thus translate the coded information into sequentially peptide bonded amino acids chains, making complexly folded proteins. Ribosomal structures, as well as Helicase and polymerase structures, are encoded in DNA, and that is how they have come into being since the creation. But, quite obviously, the first of their kinds were created complete from the start; at least that is what the evidence indicates. The first cells must have had it all.

DNA Complexity (deoxyribonucleic acid)

DNA is a double helical polymer composed of deoxyribos sugar, phosphate, and the four nucleic bases adenine, thymine, cytosine, and guanine. The sugar/phosphate iterations form the two strands along both sides, and joining the opposed sides like runs on a ladder are two paired base molecules. Each sugar/phosphate side member having one of the bases bonded to the sugar group toward the side of the polymer and bonded toward the middle to its paired base counterpart, (adenine A to thymine T, cytosine C to guanine G: A/T or T/A and C/G or G/C.) The overall acidic properties of the polymer are attributable to the phosphate groups along its two sides. The fundamental element in this spiraling helix is the nucleotide which is one sugar/phosphate group with its unpaired base attached. A 16 inch strand is nearly 500 million times longer than its 2 nanometer width and may have more than 200 million nucleotide pairs. Human DNA in 46 chromosomes has about 3,165 million base pairs.

When this ladder is split down the middle separating the paired bases, two strands are expressed that constitute a 4X code at each nucleotide: A, T, C, or G, every three nucleotides of which representing a coded word of 64X possibilities. With some duplication the 20 bio-amino acids are represented with their own words along with some control words that encode operations essential to the replication, transcription, and translation devices that utilize this code for highly specific work. These 64 words have been experimentally demonstrated, with their individual amino acids and operations identified. But whether this is the sole extent of the sequences, or rather the only level of meaning is a question. Transfer RNA, (tRNA), having from 60 to 95 nucleotides which also must be transcribed off sequential DNA locations, has at least 20 different multiword expressions; what else? What about the many ribonucleic protein structures, (RNP) like Vaults and Ribosomes? Where are their structural RNA parts encoded? Lastly there are many external factors and controls that operate on DNA sites suitable to their influence: some are known; how many are not? Moreover, as DNA twists like licorice two groves are expressed where the active sites on the paired bases are presented in the major and minor groves. How many cell processes and cellular machines might utilize this structured information for cellular work or system integration?

The packaging of DNA to fit into and be useful within the nucleus of cells is another wonder. First the twisting of the strand reduces its absolute length, but coiling twice around 8 histone proteins at precise points all along its length forms an 11 nanometer “string of pearls,” called a nucleosome string. This string is again coiled and, by the 9th histone protein, bound in solenoids of twisting groups of 6 to 8 nucleosome forming the 30 nanometer fibers called chromatin.

The inter working of histone and DNA increases the complexity significantly in all other operations DNA is involved in. All operative factors network with these packaging states and coordinate their functions. Under meiosis and mitosis the DNA is coiled and folded more, but these above are normal DNA states during interphase where most cellular life work is done.

In any living organism, all of its complexity from beginning to end is encoded in its DNA. And all that information is useless without the rest of that cell or cells. It has been said, that if the information in a teaspoon full of DNA were written into paperback books, the stack would reach from the earth to the moon and back 400 times. That is a lot of complexity in a very little package, but without a ribosome it is gibberish, useless.

Ribosomal Complexity

It takes a great deal of nonscientific, dogmatic inflexibility to believe that something as complex as a ribosome and yet as essential to all cellular life, could come into being on its own. The parts of this machine must not only all be there for it to do its job, but they all must be in working order. No cells could live long without their jobs being done. Ribosomes have been called construction sites and factories; they make the proteins that cells utilize in almost all their structures and the enzymes that operate ubiquitously throughout the cells and cell systems catalyzing the chemical works of life. Hemoglobin is an example: it is a ribosome constructed protein utilized in blood cells to capture and carry oxygen throughout many cellular systems. Even the proteins in a ribosome are made by ribosomes, as well as the proteins in helicase and polymerase whose job it is to preserve and produce reliable blueprints and work orders for ribosomal operations.

Ribosomes are two-piece machines, two complex cooperating machines, that assemble around blueprints of mRNA to perform the protein construction expressed in them. Their parts are composed of ribosomal RNA (rRNA), and different proteins. Their structural rRNA and proteins vary from part to part: one of the parts with rRNA 1,500 nucleotides in length and 20 different proteins, and the other with rRNA some 100 and some 3,000 nucleotides long and 35 different proteins. Nucleotide sequence is as critical to RNA as amino sequence is to functional proteins. This machine requires 55 proteins and conservatively 10,000 nucleotides of rRNA. Chance construction is out of the equation, scientifically anyway. In a billion universes like our own and with 100 billion years, the chance probability is still zero. These kinds of arrangements do not happen by chance; this is engineering and design; it just happens to be way beyond our intelligence. It is instructing us. And that awes us.

Even the construction of ribosome, first in the nucleolus for framing and then exported into the cytoplasm for finishing under what must be numerous controls and safeguards, magnifies the order of complexity and presupposes coevality of these structures. These DNA, RNA, protein systems are not reducible among their individual parts, products, and services. Therefore it is acutely reasonable to assume their simultaneous creation inside each of the first cells after their kinds and guaranteeing the perpetuity of their kinds.

RNA Complexity (ribonucleic acid)

RNA is the coded transcription of the information in DNA that is meticulously co-produced by the DNA and protein enzyme catalysts in a highly orchestrated symphony of intertwined labor and control. Truly stunning, it is a wonder to behold.2

RNA is not just a copy of DNA with a slightly different sugar molecule, one stranded not two, and using uracil (U) instead of thymine (T) to bind to adenine (A); it is that, but it is more. The mRNA strands are the transcribed blue prints sent out into the cytoplasm to be translated by the ribosome. The tRNA strands are individualized amino acid carriers that match up along the mRNA strand and co-catalyze the peptide bonded amino acid chains of protein construction. And, in a structural capacity, all ribonucleic protein (RNP) structures have their own RNA elements and parts; rRNA in ribosome and vRNA in vaults are examples.

The code complexities are the same, but RNA is more of a worker and tool of the code than the repository of it. Messenger mRNA carries the information out of the nucleus and into the cytoplasm where it is read and acted upon. Transfer tRNA is the labor force that coordinates and transports all the construction materials, amino acids, and facilitates their joining at the ribosome construction sites. Robert Holly (1962) solved the structure of tRNA, which looks a bit like a Celtic cross attaching its specific amino acid at its top and having at its base the nucleotide word that pairs with mRNA at a specific site on the ribosome. Lastly, the various possible roles of the RNA in RNP structures are driving much current research.

Every thing learned adds to a complexity that simply can not be reduced without serious damage to the organism. Indeed damage from toxins and mutations are some of the most heuristic objects and generators of this research, as is cancer and other diseases, all adding to our understanding of how these complex machines work and network.

Helicase Complexity

Spinning DNA as fast as a jet engine where it climbs along the double helix, unzipping it at its nose and re-zipping it at its tail, helicase catalyzes the construction of mRNA, copying the code as it passes along. Gathering free RNA nucleotides through a special induction tunnel, it matches them, and then shunts the forming mRNA strand out its side. It must start and stop at precise locations controlled by many factors releasing its products and reassembling somewhere else to do another job. Therefore, helicase is not only a precise and complicated catalyst, but it must also be responsive to various work controls; there is more intelligence in this than we know of, and this is a growing field of molecular experimental research.

Helicase is not a random grouping of proteins, nor are the proteins that compose it a random grouping of amino acids. Again, this is a precision machine far outside the realm of mathematical random probability. Added to its own complexity, the fact that its own blue prints are some of the products it makes as it slides precisely along the complex DNA molecule, the complexity becomes irreducible, incapable of simplifying without destroying the whole purpose of the system. The number of sequential dependent operations in this system, its fabrication, maintenance, and reproduction, begins to look like the grains of sand upon the sea shores.

Polymerase Complexity

These catalytic machines reproduce DNA reading it, checking it, and repairing it as they go about their precision jobs. Along with helicase, it must unwind and unzip the DNA stand and then produce two duplicate strands from the two halves. This too is a wonder to behold.2

As the DNA is split down the middle along the base pairs, one half of the split strand is reproduced directly by polymerase factors pairing DNA nucleotides. But the other half is winnowed out in a loop to be reproduced backwards and then joined to the completed previous loop. There is a quality control aspect to this procedure as helicase factors check its accuracy pairing across the products, and if there is an error, progress down the DNA strand is halted while the defective strand or loop is severed and rebuilt. This ballet has the relevant factors embracing pulling apart, re gathering, spinning off, swinging out drawing back, and combined producing two identical DNA strands. The movement of these factors and the distances they must operate over are magnificent, like a molecular loom of ingenious innovation and design.

Again the number of proteins and their number of amino acids, the sequences of their construction and precise folded forms are all essential to their flexibilities and active sites. Mistakes, reductions, or additions are altogether counterproductive. The continuance of life and the perpetuity of the organism are dependent on the proper networking of every factor. Per-organism, it is just not reducible.

There are polymerases used in amplifying human DNA that come from organisms that normally live in extremely heated environments. These lack some of the code checking complexity of human polymerase, but then they uniquely are able to survive the sequential heating that is required by the amplifying procedures which human polymerase cannot. It is assumed that the high temperature of its native habitat provides that essential check on its accuracy. Not withstanding, this is not an argument for a reduction in complication, rather it argues for specie specific design variations. Their individual complexities remain irreducible.

CONCLUSIONS

The amazing order, inter working, and networking among the DNA/RNA/protein systems express a wisdom that is nothing less than an observation of the eternal power and divine nature of the Creator. It takes a lot of effort not to see this. Romans 1: vs19-23:
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things​
.
It seems as though one could see the actual design orders marshaled out to implement the divine decree for living things to multiply and fill the earth after their kinds. Insuring their individual integrity within their kinds: Genesis 1: vs11-12, 21-22, 24-25:
And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good...And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth...And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.​
Eukaryotic DNA is one of the most stable information storage systems known to man. Receiving the cell principal as confirmed by all experimental results, therefore, the naive notions speculated by the pedagogic doctrine of evolution ought to be relegated to the history of science, and not to be presented as current infallible orthodox science. Much less should it be mandatory for those who would do science to kiss the ring of Darwin in order to enter though her portals. Ridged, officious, and dogmatically bigoted presumptions ought not to be the bench mark of scientific inquiry, right? Then let not the shibboleth of infinite time and chance exclude any longer those who would discover and learn, or those who would teach, for that matter.

References:
1. Biology God’s Living Creation: Keith Graham, Laurel Hicks, Delores Shimmim, and George Thompson; A Beka Book Publications, (1986) p.553
2. Finding the DNA Structure, Copying, Reading, & Controlling DNA Code (see the flash videos of cellular processes)
 
Hey xDICEx,

I absolutely believe one can believe the Bible and also teach science. Problems only arise when one tries to put science over God and his word.

God Bless
 
There are many scientists who believe in the Bible and also believe in science. Given that the Bible teaches a flat earth, a geocentric universe and other things, it probably should not be used for science.
Problems arise when science is used to describe matters of spirituality or faith, and when the Bible is used for matters of science.
 
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Why do problems exist?

Hey xDICEx,

...Problems only arise when one tries to put science over God and his word.

Hello Cocmicwaffle, how are u doing? If one believes the bible is true in whatever it speaks to or about, then how can a problem exist of putting science over His word? Doesn't His word teach that He by His word created all things. How can observation and inductive reasoning concerning the creation be placed over the revelations of scripture, if the same creator authored both?
 
Much less should it be mandatory for those who would do science to kiss the ring of Darwin in order to enter though her portals. Ridged, officious, and dogmatically bigoted presumptions ought not to be the bench mark of scientific inquiry, right?

Absolutely!

As I can't post a one word post,...

Howdee Dice!

I totally understood your conclusion.

The rest was a bit over my head..


Something I remember from a long time ago that I can't quite remember the details was something about cell structure disproving Darwinian theory. What came first up the common ancestor tree?.. RNA? DNA? or the other thing that RNA and DNA require to even exist? One couldn't exist with out the other being a fully formed thing or something... Evidence of Divine design and totally refutes slow processes of mutation over eons of time.

Have you knowledge of this?
 
Given that the Bible teaches a flat earth


No it doesn't. That is NOT a "given"




If you check history you will find that it was the "scientist" working for the catholic folks that inaccurately interpreted passages of the Bible to explain their theories of scientific stuff and that is the point of origin for the flat earth conspiracy.



The scientific understanding of God's creation by the catholic church was extremely lacking in centuries past. Darwin himself lacked the knowledge of DNA when he posed his theories which have proven also to be inaccurate.

Claiming to be wise they became fools...

Tiz True..
 
Hello Cocmicwaffle, how are u doing? If one believes the bible is true in whatever it speaks to or about, then how can a problem exist of putting science over His word? Doesn't His word teach that He by His word created all things. How can observation and inductive reasoning concerning the creation be placed over the revelations of scripture, if the same creator authored both?
Easy, when one tries to say that science should be used to interpret the Bible, instead of vice versa. I am mainly talking about the theory of evolution, they take scripture to places it doesn't go naturally.
 
Can a Scible ( Science + Bible ) minded person exist?

At this point, yes.

Currently, science is incomplete, and so are all religions. If any religion was truly complete, then there would be no room for another religion, since complete means complete.
If science was complete, there would be no room left for religion, since once again, complete means complete. People today "BELIEVE" in a God, thus they are located at a distance from the truth.

If you are directly connected to the truth, then you need not be dependent upon beliefs nor disbeliefs. However, if you are located at a distance from the truth, thus you are obviously located within the zone of less than truth, it is only then that you become dependent upon beliefs and disbeliefs.

If you stick to your beliefs and disbeliefs, you therefore stick to being located at a distance from the truth. If you stick to your beliefs and disbeliefs, you therefore stick to only accepting truth as best as it can be seen from a far distance. Thus if the truth was placed directly in front of you in the hear and now, thus there is no distance, you will reject this truth since, as a believer, you only accept truth as best as it can be seen from a distance.

In the world of science, only that which is in the hear and now is accepted, thus the outside of reality, the spirit world, is ignored by the science folk in their workplace.

Thus both the religious folk and science folk of today, both keep themselves away from the complete truth. In turn, it is possible to place both forms of incompleteness into one mind.
 
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No it doesn't. That is NOT a "given"




If you check history you will find that it was the "scientist" working for the catholic folks that inaccurately interpreted passages of the Bible to explain their theories of scientific stuff and that is the point of origin for the flat earth conspiracy.



The scientific understanding of God's creation by the catholic church was extremely lacking in centuries past. Darwin himself lacked the knowledge of DNA when he posed his theories which have proven also to be inaccurate.

Claiming to be wise they became fools...

Tiz True..


The Catholic flat earth thing is probably true, but that is a separate thing/misunderstanding. But I'm talking about the cosmology of the Bible - how did the ancient Hebrews view the world?

From The Collegeville Pastoral Dictionary of Biblical Theology, p234. (Collegeville: The Liturgical Press, 1996), Stuhlmueller, Carroll.:
Ancient Israel imagined the earth to be a flat disk (Isa 42:5) resting on a foundation or pillars (Job 9:6). It is surrounded by the ocean (Pss 24:2; 136:6). It has four corners (Isa 11:12; Ezek 7:2; job 37:3; 38:13) and an edge (Isa 24:36) or ends (Isa 40:8; Job 28:4; Ps 48:11; Jer 6:22; 25:32). It also has a center or navel (Ezek 38:12). Except for the implication that Jerusalem is the earth’s center, ancient Israel’s view of the world did not differ from that of other ancient Near Eastern peoples.


The Bible also teaches that the sky is hard, it has windows, the earth doesn't move, and that it is the centre of the universe. All of this is not true. To find out the Bible's cosmology, we only need to turn to the cosmology of its authors. If you check your history about the ancient Hebrew view of the world, ancient Hebrew/Egyptian cosmology teaches a flat earth. Moses, being Egyptian educated, thought the Earth was flat. So the Old Testament "teaches" a flat earth. However by closer to the New Testament times (c 300 BC I believe) they adopted the spherical earth view from the Greeks. So it is likely that the New Testament authors believed in a spherical earth. The Bible also says that the earth does not move (1 Chronicles 16:30, Isaiah 45:18). This is also according to ancient Hebrew cosmology. But science tells us that the earth rotates on its own access, it tilts back and forth, wobbles, and also rotates around the sun. The authors of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation had different views about the world and the universe, depending upon which time period and region they were educated in. The authors of Scripture (from Moses to the disciples) relied upon the best secular scientific knowledge available at the time (e.g. Moses was educated by the Egyptians, so his view of science was Egyptian).


Whatever the Bible teaches of science will only be as good as an ancient Egyptian's or Moses, or an ancient Greeks science, and there have been many Christian scientists (eg Isaac Newton), but none as far as I know, relied upon the Bible for their scientific knowledge, and I can't think of any technologies we use today that are from the Bible.
 
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James,

Taking scriptures out of context to imply they say something that they don't (like saying the Bible teaches the sky is hard because of the windows of heaven passage) shows your ignorance of scripture.

The "four corners of the earth" means North, South, East, and West, meaning all over the earth.

"Ends of the earth" refers to the whole earth.
 
And Moses' Egyptian "education" was trumped by his experience with God.

Egypt also by a longshot had the highest science knowledge in its day, that was not reached again till probably the 16th century. And we know what happened in the showdown between moses and the wise men of Egypt. God easily won through Moses.
 
Of course, God is the inventor and master of all science.
 
My entire life I believed in evolution, the big bang, and loved studying science and philosophy. I am not an expert by any means, but as far as laymen go, I think I can hold my own with just about anyone on the planet when it comes to discussing all the fundamentals of all modern scientific theories. I was an atheist , basically, from birth. So when I came to Christ 13 months ago, I encountered a huge problem concerning science and the reliability of the BIble. Today, I firmly believe in a literal 6-day creation, roughly 6,000 years ago. I completely reject every form of evolution (both biological and cosmological). And I am not ashamed to say that I do this because i give the authority to God instead of men. But I also do this because I have thoroughly researched the science behind all these issues, and I have found the BIble to be completely trust worthy in all things scientific.
 
Science must be observable, repeatable, testable. Origins philosophy (metaphysics) such as evolution and the big bang are not science but philosophical speculation based on fallacious starting assumptions. Real science completely agrees with the straightforward reading of Genesis and the bible. A better question is this: can an evolutionist be intellectually honest about their dogmatic faith in their illogical hypothesis?
 
My entire life I believed in evolution, the big bang, and loved studying science and philosophy. I am not an expert by any means, but as far as laymen go, I think I can hold my own with just about anyone on the planet when it comes to discussing all the fundamentals of all modern scientific theories. I was an atheist , basically, from birth. So when I came to Christ 13 months ago, I encountered a huge problem concerning science and the reliability of the BIble. Today, I firmly believe in a literal 6-day creation, roughly 6,000 years ago. I completely reject every form of evolution (both biological and cosmological). And I am not ashamed to say that I do this because i give the authority to God instead of men. But I also do this because I have thoroughly researched the science behind all these issues, and I have found the BIble to be completely trust worthy in all things scientific.


  • Of course Taylor, a true "Born Again" Christian doesn't need science or the Bible to prove that God is the creator of all things, including scientific disciplines, a Christian just knows!
  • Matthew 16:17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
 
James,

Taking scriptures out of context to imply they say something that they don't (like saying the Bible teaches the sky is hard because of the windows of heaven passage) shows your ignorance of scripture.

The "four corners of the earth" means North, South, East, and West, meaning all over the earth.

"Ends of the earth" refers to the whole earth.

It's not really about the context but the language used. If they believed the world was not flat, they would not have used such terminology. Just as you or I would not believe and say that a dog has wings, if we knew that a dog does not have wings. But I agree with you, I don't believe that the flat earth has corners either, because it is a circular disk, it refers to all over the Earth. However North, East, South West can refer to on a flat Earth as well, as it is common to find such compass points on a two dimensional map.

There is as much Biblical "evidence" that the sky is hard, as there is to say that the Earth is a sphere. If we gather the verse by verse evidence it points overwhelmingly to a flat earth. A suggestion that the ancient Hebrew's understanding of cosmology and science was the same as the Greeks or even ours today, is absurd.

Regardless of how we interpret individual verses, this doesn't change the fact that the authors of the Old Testament believed in a flat earth according to ancient Hebrew cosmology, please look up ancient Hebrew cosmology and Biblical authorship. The Egyptian-educated Moses, at least, believed in a flat earth.
 
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My entire life I believed in evolution, the big bang, and loved studying science and philosophy. I am not an expert by any means, but as far as laymen go, I think I can hold my own with just about anyone on the planet when it comes to discussing all the fundamentals of all modern scientific theories. I was an atheist , basically, from birth. So when I came to Christ 13 months ago, I encountered a huge problem concerning science and the reliability of the BIble. Today, I firmly believe in a literal 6-day creation, roughly 6,000 years ago. I completely reject every form of evolution (both biological and cosmological). And I am not ashamed to say that I do this because i give the authority to God instead of men. But I also do this because I have thoroughly researched the science behind all these issues, and I have found the BIble to be completely trust worthy in all things scientific.

If the Bible is "completely trustworthy in all things scientific", then you should be able to name a few technologies or medicines that we use today that were developed based upon the scientific knowledge in the Bible. Can you do that? I can't, and that is why I believe the Bible is not trustworthy in scientific things, just like a recipe book is not trustworthy in all things medical. No one ever passed a science exam based upon the scientific knowledge contained in the Bible.
 
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Science must be observable, repeatable, testable. Origins philosophy (metaphysics) such as evolution and the big bang are not science but philosophical speculation based on fallacious starting assumptions. Real science completely agrees with the straightforward reading of Genesis and the bible. A better question is this: can an evolutionist be intellectually honest about their dogmatic faith in their illogical hypothesis?

That is an incorrect assumption based upon high school science teaching us that science is something a person does in a laboratory wearing a lab coat - real science does not have to be observable, repeatable or testable. Not all science involves experiments and observation. For example in astronomy, a person cannot fly to the stars or gather a sample of a star, but they can observe what has happened in history past. Geology is another example where things are not observable, repeatable or testable. But this does not mean that astronomy and geology is not real science. Science can start with philosophical speculation and fallacious starting assumptions, which may lead to a hypothesis. Speculative theories are used and are useful in science. Many technologies we take for granted today started with completely crazy speculations and assumptions. Evolutionary science is based upon observations, eg the fossil record etc. A Christian scientist will use the same fossil record as their observations of the past. Evolution can also be observed in a laboratory setting with bacteria or fruit flies that have short generation times. We should note that the Bible, i.e. Creation in Genesis, is neither observable, repeatable or testable either. Therefore science does not favor either one or the other, it comes down to a matter of faith.
 
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Of course, God is the inventor and master of all science.

I see things differently, that science was invented and created by man, to try and sustain an existence that is independent from God. Science is basically Satanic so that people can say "look at what we can do as human beings, we don't need God", I don't think God invented it, needed it, or intends to use it in the future new heaven and new earth. Using the Bible for science is using it for a purpose contrary to God's will. Look at where science is headed - science is going to make us all gods. Look at the main objectives of science today - save the planet (global warming etc), live longer (give man eternal life), prove that there is no God (evolution etc), and relocate to another planet (space exploration and mars colonization).
 
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