Can our salvation in Christ Jesus ever be jeopardised?

[complete]

Hello there,​

The following is a study I found online, which I thought was worth sharing with you.

Colossians 2:6​

As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:​

This section of teaching looks at The Grace of our Saviour and God Christ Jesus and the good works He has called us to walk in because He has given us the Free Gift of Life.

We are continually saddened by "church leaders" who have not been able to grasp this basic Truth and have not realized that Everlasting Life is The Gift of God bought by the precious blood of The Saviour. They do not acknowledge that if we stumble and fall in our Christian walk with Him, our Everlasting Life is never in jeopardy, for we have been forgiven all trespasses past, present, and future by our all-knowing Father. Some "teachers" present their non-scriptural views with "authority" in the face of many clear Scriptures that reveal how the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (Rom. 11:29).

We never use terms like "Once Saved, Always Saved" as we believe Scripture is the best Teacher and that Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by The Word of God (Rom. 10:17).

We do believe all who have called upon The Name of The Lord have already been given The Gift of Life Everlasting and that this Free Gift cannot be lost, forsaken, or forfeited in any way because God's gifts are age-abiding.

Why we believe this is:​

The word translated "freely" in the New Testament is dorean, and like dorea, dorema, and doron is derived from didomi, "to give." We cannot stress too strongly the blessed fact that justification is an act of Grace, a gift undeserved and unmerited. The word "freely" occurs in The Gospels, the Epistles and Revelation:

"Freely ye have received, freely give" (Matthew 10:8).
"They hated Me without a cause" (John 15:25).
"I have preached to you the gospel of God freely" (2 Corinthians 11:7).
"If righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain" (Galatians 2:21).
"Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought" (2 Thessalonians 3:8).
"The water of life freely" (Revelation 21:6, Revelation 22:17).

The English language will not allow John 15:25 to be translated as "They hated Me freely," but we can say: "They hated Me gratuitously." So in Galatians 2:21, "Christ is dead in vain" (or gratuitously). Romans Chapter 5 places great emphasis on this gratuitous act of God:

"But not as the offense, so also is the free gift. For if through the offense of one many be dead, much more the grace of God and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift; for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses unto justification". (Romans 5:15-16).

Here, God uses not only dorea in Rom. 5:15 and dorema in Rom. 5:16 but also charisma, a gift in grace (or gracious gift), translated in both verses as "free gift." We doubt whether any definition of Grace is complete that does not include this element of a gift that is the antithesis of "wages" (Romans 6:23), a gift that is without repentance on the part of The Giver (Rom. 11:29). The "grace-by-faith-salvation" of Ephesians 2:8 "is not of works, but is The Gift of God."

It is the very essence of love to give. Even sinful men and women manifest their mutual love by the exchange of gifts. Children, parents, and friends seize upon birthdays, weddings, and almost any festive season as opportunities to manifest their love through gifts. The Love of God has been shown forever in The Gift of His Son (John 3:16), and it is a repeated characteristic of The Love of Christ that gives and gives freely gifts and Life to all who will accept That Gift (Galatians 2:20; Ephesians 5:2 and Eph. 5:25).

We have been "justified freely," gratuitously, without a cause, "by His Grace." Here, we need to pause so that we may receive the double emphasis upon the "Grace" element of The Gift. Grace is of such a nature that it is entirely made imperfect by the intrusion of "works" or "wages."

"And if by grace, then it is no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work" (Romans 11:6).

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Romans 4:4-5).

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal (aionion) life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:23).

"For by grace are ye saved . . . it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8).

Let not our own crude sense of right and wrong rob us of The Truth of this wonderful Gift of Grace. Romans 3:24 states we are "being justified freely by His Grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." What it does not say is that this freely given justification is because the Lord Jesus earned a legal righteousness for us by His obedience to the law of Moses. Such an idea robs the Grace Gift of its Glory and brings God down to the level of a bargainer with His Son, whereas it is God Himself Who loved the world, God Who sent His Son, God Who justifies us freely, God Who provided the ransom which is payment in full for all sin, past, present and future.

Justification Through Redemption​

Where some schools of theology teach justification through "imputed obedience" under the law, God declared that it is through the "redemption" that is in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:24). The same truth appears in Romans 5:8-9 where we read: "Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by His blood", and again in Romans 4:25: "Who was delivered up because of our offenses, and raised again for our justification." Christ's death dealt with our sin. His blood at once redeems, atones, and makes us near. Redemption sets us free, and long before The Dispensation of Grace dawned, David realized that God would reckon righteousness where He forgave sin.

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Rom. 4:6-8).

It was necessary that sin should be righteously dealt with, and that has been done, but it is The Glory of The Gospel that the same Love that prompted our redemption and our deliverance can provide gratuitously, freely, and without cause (except in the Great Love of GodWho Loves us.) "a righteousness of God apart from the law."

Shall we reject this Loving Gift because we do not see just how God could give it to us freely and without some external moving cause on our part? We undervalue far too much the initial movement of God in our Salvation. Who constrained God in the first place to provide a ransom? What works of righteousness were accomplished, and by whom, before He would send His Gift of Love down to die? And all that to a world that rejected Him and was dead in trespasses and sin.

If we take God at His Word and do not add to it or remove it from its context, do we not begin to experience a knowledge of Love that surpasses understanding? Then Scriptures in this Pure Light impart much fuller enlightenment, for example, the words of Romans 8:32:

"He that spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?"

Here is God's own argument. The "Free Gift" of righteousness to the believer in the Lord Jesus is freely covered and provided for in the one Greatest Gift of all, His Own Son. Let no believer ever think that their righteousness is not resting upon a firm enough foundation. All our Everlasting Lives rest on the uninfluenced Grace of God. Its bedrock is The Love of God that changes not and The Truth of The Precious Gift from God, Who is Christ Jesus Himself. The Father gave The Perfect Gift to fallen mankind, and having given His Son, God will freely give with Him, not grudgingly give or have to be persuaded to give, all things that are necessary for the believer's life and glory. This does not refer only to the act of justification but covers all our needs and our eternal blessings.

Justification has altogether a legal signification and has respect, not to what the man is in actual character, but to what the man is held to be in juridical estimation. It is not that change found in a believer, by which he is made a just person, but it is that change in his relation to the law and the Lawgiver. The believers are then reckoned a just person. It describes not the individual's moral rightness but his legal right, and however inseparably the two may be conjoined, in fact, they ought not on that account to be confounded in the idea.

It has been said that the doctrine of justification by faith is held by both Protestant and Roman schools of thought, everything depending, of course, upon exactly what is meant by "faith." It is good, therefore, to be able to express what we mean concerning the freeness of this Gift, and the fact that faith has no merit in it by quoting, insistently, the language of Titus 3:7: "Being justified by His Grace." Justification by Grace is what we believe and what we intend when using the more common expression "justification by faith" as "it is the gift of God".

"Now if you doubt that I am Christ's
If one suspicion lurks
I'll show by deeds that I am His
I'm justified by works.

"I praise the Lord 'tis all of Him
The grace (Romans 3:24), the faith (Romans 5:1), the blood (Romans 5:9).
The resurrection power (Romans 4:25), the works (James 2:18-24),
I'm justified by God".

(With acknowledgments to the unknown author).

Now, the rewards we earn by faithful service can be lost, but never The Gift of Life;​

 

[B-A-C]

Matt 24:10; "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
Luke 8:13; "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
1Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

I can't fall away from something I never had. I can't fall off a cliff or out of tree, if I'm not already on the cliff or in the tree. I can't fall away from the faith if I never had the faith.

Luke 8:14; "The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.

Some people start to bear fruit, but then something happens and they just stop. They couldn't bear any fruit at all without Jesus, so the fruit they started came by the power of Jesus.

John 6:66; As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.

Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Non-Christians are not partakers of the Holy Spirit, only true believers can partake of the Holy Spirit. Again, I can't fall away from somewhere I've never been or something I never had.
Also I can't repent "again" unless I've already repented at least once. I can't crucify Jesus "again" if I never believed He died for my sins in the first place.

2Pet 2:20; For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2Pet 2:21; For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
2Pet 2:22; It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

No one can escape the defilement of the world on their own, no one can do it without Jesus. But even with Jesus, some return back to their defiling ways. It says here the last state is worse than the first state ( before they were saved )
No one can wash themselves clean of sin and the defilements of the world, only the blood of Jesus can do that. But some people, after being washed, return to the mud.

1Thes 3:5; For this reason, when I could endure it no longer, I also sent to find out about your faith, for fear that the tempter might have tempted you, and our labor would be in vain.

Heb 12:15; See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;

 

[B-A-C]

This was written to a Church, not unbelievers.

Rev 2:2; 'I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false;
Rev 2:3; and you have perseverance and have endured for My name's sake, and have not grown weary.
Rev 2:4; 'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.
Rev 2:5; 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent.

They have already done things for Jesus name's sake. But Jesus tells the church, they need to REPENT or else, I remove your lampstand.

Rev 2:13 'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is; and you hold fast My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells
Rev 2:14; 'But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality.
Rev 2:15; 'So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans.
Rev 2:16; 'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.

Another church, who "did not deny My faith". They are believers, but yet Jesus tells them... repent, or else I will make war against you. ( Gee, I wonder who will win? )

Rev 2:19; 'I know your deeds, and your love and faith and service and perseverance, and that your deeds of late are greater than at first.
Rev 2:20; 'But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.
Rev 2:21; 'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.
Rev 2:22; 'Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.

Yet another church, a church that had "love and faith and service". Yet some of them started following another teaching. Jesus says repent or else.

Psa 69:28; May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.
Rev 3:5; 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Exod 32:33; The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

 

[B-A-C]

Matt 25:8; "The foolish said to the prudent, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'
Matt 25:9; "But the prudent answered, 'No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.'
Matt 25:10; "And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.
Matt 25:11; "Later the other virgins also came, saying, 'Lord, lord, open up for us.'
Matt 25:12; "But he answered, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.'

A lot of people think the Lord is returning for them will be unpleasantly surprised. They know He is returning, and they think they are ready for His return.
All ten virgins in the story above started off with the same oil. But only the ones who didn't "run out" of oil got to go back with the bridegroom.

 

[B-A-C]

2Pet 2:1; But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2Pet 2:2; Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
2Pet 2:3; and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
2Pet 2:4; For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
2Pet 2:5; and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pet 2:6; and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
2Pet 2:7; and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men
2Pet 2:8; (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds),
2Pet 2:9; then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,
2Pet 2:10; and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties,

There are many false teachers around, who will tell you things like "God is just so loving, and He is just so good", "It doesn't matter how much you sin, grace has your back".
Have you ever wondered why it's so important to some people to "warn" us that we can't lose our salvation? Why would anyone need to warn us about that if it was true?
Why would any true, Spirit filled Christian encourage other people to keep on sinning?

Jude 1:3; Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
Jude 1:4; For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Jude 1:10; But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
Jude 1:11; Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
Jude 1:12; These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted;
Jude 1:13; wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.

Even here on TalkJesus we have a few who tell you that the grace of God is a license to sin. Woe to them, they are in error. They are the reefs beneath the waves that shipwreck some people.

1Tim 1:6; For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion,
1Tim 1:7; wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.

1Tim 1:18; This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight,
1Tim 1:19; keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.

There are some people here, who will shipwreck your faith. They will encourage to follow the doctrines of demons. They make "confident assertions" about things
they don't understand. They will tell you that the commandments and obedience to God don't matter. But they are liars. Straight up liars. Period.
They will post verses that seemingly contradict all the verses above, but the Bible never contradicts itself, so ignore all of these verses at your own peril.

1Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1Cor 7:19; Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

Heb 10:26; For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

 

[Dave M]

Hi Complete I have one question for you do you fear God?

 

[B-A-C]

Luke 9:62; But Jesus said to him, "No one, after putting his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."

Matt 7:21; "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt 7:22; "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Matt 7:23; "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

They people believed in Jesus, they did things in His name. They called Him "Lord, Lord". So then, why did Jesus say He didn't know them?
Because they were practicing lawlessness, ( sin, iniquity )

1Jn 2:3; By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

This is how we know, they we know Jesus!! Obedience!!

John 14:21; "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."
John 14:22; Judas (not Iscariot) *said to Him, "Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world?"
John 14:23; Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
John 14:24; "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.

John 15:9; "Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.
John 15:10; "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

"IF" if is a conditional word. IF you keep the commandments, then you will remain in Jesus's love.

1Jn 4:11; Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
1Jn 4:12; No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.
1Jn 4:13; By this we know that we abide in Jesus and Jesus in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
1Jn 4:14; We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
1Jn 4:15; Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
1Jn 4:16; We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

"IF" we love one another, then God is in us. "BY THIS" we know that we abide in Jesus.
So then, also "BY THIS" we can know that Jesus doesn't abide in us, IF we don't love one another.

Luke 13:23; And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them,
Luke 13:24; "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Luke 13:25; "Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, 'Lord, open up to us!e' then He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know where you are from.'
Luke 13:26; "Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets';
Luke 13:27; and He will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.'

"Many" will seek to enter through the narrow door ( Jesus, the door to the kingdom of heaven ) and will not be able.
They aren't ignoring Jesus, they are seeking to enter in! They will say we knew you Jesus, we ate and drank with you.
We listened to your teachings, We know you! and He will say He doesn't know them... all you who continue to do evil,
all of you who continue to sin.

 

[B-A-C]

A lot of OSAS believers, point to this passage.

Eph 2:8; For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10; For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

They say you can't save yourself, and salvation is a gift from God. You aren't saved by works.
... and on all that I absolutely agree 100%. But how you "get" saved, isn't the same thing as how you "stay saved".

Someone could give me a ticket Disneyland, I didn't earn it, I didn't work for it, it was a gift!!
I may even use it to go to Disneyland. But if I don't follow the rules, and I hit people, cut in line, steal stuff, they'll still kick me out.
What are you gong to do, wave your free ticket at them, and say "but I have free ticket, I didn't work for it, it was a gift!"

Matt 13:40; "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Matt 13:41; "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
Matt 13:42; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Just because you're in Disneyland, doesn't mean you get to stay in Disneyland. Just because you're in the kingdom of heaven, doesn't mean you get to stay in the kingdom.
It says in this passage, that some people who are in the kingdom, will be removed "out of His kingdom". Those who cause other's to stumble, and commit lawlessness (sin ).

 

[B-A-C]

Another passage used to support OSAS.

Rom 8:38; For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39; nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Nothing can separate me from the love of God. Not angels, or demons. Not height or depth, not even life or death. Nothing can separate you from the love of God.
I totally agree 100% with this passage also. However, the "love" of God is not the "salvation" of of God. Just because God loves someone, doesn't mean they are saved.

Rom 5:8; But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

God loved you even when you were a sinner. Before you were saved. God loves sinners. But that doesn't mean they are saved.

John 3:16; "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

God loves the whole world, enough that He sent Jesus ( His only Son ) to die for them. But the whole world won't be saved.

 

[B-A-C]

Another passage used to support OSAS.

John 10:27; "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 10:28; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:29; "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
John 10:30; "I and the Father are one."

No one can snatch ( pluck ) you out of Jesus's hand. No one is stronger than Jesus. No one can take you away from Him.
Again, I totally agree 100% with this passage. I am an old guy now. I have grandchildren almost out of high school.
I'm over 6 foot tall and over 230 pounds, I used to work out a lot. Back in the day, I was a force to be reckoned with.
No one could take my wife away from me. If anyone would have tried, it would have been bad for them.

But that doesn't mean we would always be together no matter what. First of all, I could have left her.
I myself could have snatched her out of my hand and divorced her.

Matt 25:26; "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.
Matt 25:27; 'Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.
Matt 25:28; 'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'
Matt 25:29; "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
Matt 25:30; "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

One day, Jesus is going to "throw out" some of the people in His house ( His kingdom ). No one is going to pluck them from Jesus's hand.
But Jesus Himself is going to cast them out.

 

[B-A-C]

Here we have another so-called OSAS passage.

Heb 13:5; Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU,"
Heb 13:6; so that we confidently say, "THE LORD IS MY HELPER, I WILL NOT BE AFRAID. WHAT WILL MAN DO TO ME?"

No one knows for sure who wrote Hebrews, but many think it could have been Paul. If it was Paul, He wasn't one of Jesus's disciples before Jesus was crucified and ascended to heaven.
So then, how did He know Jesus said this? Jesus didn't say this in any of the four Gospels ( Matt, Mark Luke or John ) so then, where was this said? You have to go all the way back to the
Old Testament to find it. One thing people leave out when quoting this verse, is the beginning, about the love of money. This verse isn't really about salvation.

Deut 31:6; "Be strong and courageous, do not be afraid or tremble at them, for the LORD your God is the one who goes with you. He will not fail you or forsake you."
Deut 31:7; Then Moses called to Joshua and said to him in the sight of all Israel, "Be strong and courageous, for you shall go with this people into the land which the LORD has sworn to their fathers to give them, and you shall give it to them as an inheritance.
Deut 31:8; "The LORD is the one who goes ahead of you; He will be with you. He will not fail you or forsake you. Do not fear or be dismayed."

So then, God will leave us or forsake us, right? I agree with this 100% also. However, that doesn't mean we can't leave Him or forsake Him.

Deut 29:25 "Then men will say, 'Because they forsook the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, which He made with them when He brought them out of the land of Egypt.
Deut 32:15 "But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked—You are grown fat, thick, and sleek—Then he forsook God who made him, And scorned the Rock of his salvation.
Jdgs 2:12 and they forsook the LORD, the God of their fathers, who had brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods from among the gods of the peoples who were around them, and bowed themselves down to them; thus they provoked the LORD to anger.
Jdgs 2:13 So they forsook the LORD and served Baal and the Ashtaroth.
Jdgs 10:6 Then the sons of Israel again did evil in the sight of the LORD, served the Baals and the Ashtaroth, the gods of Aram, the gods of Sidon, the gods of Moab, the gods of the sons of Ammon, and the gods of the Philistines; thus they forsook the LORD and did not serve Him.
1Kin 9:9 "And they will say, 'Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and adopted other gods and worshiped them and served them, therefore the LORD has brought all this adversity on them.'"
2Kin 17:16 They forsook all the commandments of the LORD their God and made for themselves molten images, even two calves, and made an Asherah and worshiped all the host of heaven and served Baal.
2Kin 21:22 So he forsook the LORD, the God of his fathers, and did not walk in the way of the LORD.
2Chron 7:22 "And they will say, 'Because they forsook the LORD, the God of their fathers who brought them from the land of Egypt, and they adopted other gods and worshiped them and served them; therefore He has brought all this adversity on them.'"
2Chron 12:1 When the kingdom of Rehoboam was established and strong, he and all Israel with him forsook the law of the LORD.
Isa 54:7 "For a brief moment I forsook you, But with great compassion I will gather you.
Jer 22:9 "Then they will answer, 'Because they forsook the covenant of the LORD their God and bowed down to other gods and served them.'"

There are still people forsaking God even today in this generation.

Mark 14:21; "For the Son of Man is to go just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."


Rom 11:19; You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20; Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
Rom 11:21; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

 

[Curtis]

Are there any unbelievers in the organized church today?

The Apostle Paul knew false believers would infiltrate the church in his life time and in the latter times In which we are now living. These people have been falling away since the beginning.

 

[Dave M]

The bible tells us to fear God in many places, if we can not lose our salvation why do we need to fear God?? The Bible tells us in many places we must endure to the end, why do we need to endure to the end if we can loose our salvation??

OSAS seems like a dangerous doctrine that might make some people falsely secure in going to heaven. We Already have churches full of people who call themselves Christian but have not been born again,; we have many pastors that call themselves Christians who are not born again.

I would be much more inclined to be posting about warning of people that think they are saved but have not been changed and need to be born again then posting Doctrine that is not 100% clear in the bible, to me at least it is not clear one way or another I can point to scripture suggesting we can loose our salvation and I can point to scripture suggesting we can not loose it.

 

[KingJ]

Hello there,​

The following is a study I found online, which I thought was worth sharing with you.

Colossians 2:6​

As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:​

This section of teaching looks at The Grace of our Saviour and God Christ Jesus and the good works He has called us to walk in because He has given us the Free Gift of Life.

We are continually saddened by "church leaders" who have not been able to grasp this basic Truth and have not realized that Everlasting Life is The Gift of God bought by the precious blood of The Saviour. They do not acknowledge that if we stumble and fall in our Christian walk with Him, our Everlasting Life is never in jeopardy, for we have been forgiven all trespasses past, present, and future by our all-knowing Father. Some "teachers" present their non-scriptural views with "authority" in the face of many clear Scriptures that reveal how the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (Rom. 11:29).

We never use terms like "Once Saved, Always Saved" as we believe Scripture is the best Teacher and that Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by The Word of God (Rom. 10:17).

We do believe all who have called upon The Name of The Lord have already been given The Gift of Life Everlasting and that this Free Gift cannot be lost, forsaken, or forfeited in any way because God's gifts are age-abiding.

Why we believe this is:​

The word translated "freely" in the New Testament is dorean, and like dorea, dorema, and doron is derived from didomi, "to give." We cannot stress too strongly the blessed fact that justification is an act of Grace, a gift undeserved and unmerited. The word "freely" occurs in The Gospels, the Epistles and Revelation:

"Freely ye have received, freely give" (Matthew 10:8).
"They hated Me without a cause" (John 15:25).
"I have preached to you the gospel of God freely" (2 Corinthians 11:7).
"If righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain" (Galatians 2:21).
"Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought" (2 Thessalonians 3:8).
"The water of life freely" (Revelation 21:6, Revelation 22:17).

The English language will not allow John 15:25 to be translated as "They hated Me freely," but we can say: "They hated Me gratuitously." So in Galatians 2:21, "Christ is dead in vain" (or gratuitously). Romans Chapter 5 places great emphasis on this gratuitous act of God:

"But not as the offense, so also is the free gift. For if through the offense of one many be dead, much more the grace of God and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift; for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses unto justification". (Romans 5:15-16).

Here, God uses not only dorea in Rom. 5:15 and dorema in Rom. 5:16 but also charisma, a gift in grace (or gracious gift), translated in both verses as "free gift." We doubt whether any definition of Grace is complete that does not include this element of a gift that is the antithesis of "wages" (Romans 6:23), a gift that is without repentance on the part of The Giver (Rom. 11:29). The "grace-by-faith-salvation" of Ephesians 2:8 "is not of works, but is The Gift of God."

It is the very essence of love to give. Even sinful men and women manifest their mutual love by the exchange of gifts. Children, parents, and friends seize upon birthdays, weddings, and almost any festive season as opportunities to manifest their love through gifts. The Love of God has been shown forever in The Gift of His Son (John 3:16), and it is a repeated characteristic of The Love of Christ that gives and gives freely gifts and Life to all who will accept That Gift (Galatians 2:20; Ephesians 5:2 and Eph. 5:25).

We have been "justified freely," gratuitously, without a cause, "by His Grace." Here, we need to pause so that we may receive the double emphasis upon the "Grace" element of The Gift. Grace is of such a nature that it is entirely made imperfect by the intrusion of "works" or "wages."

"And if by grace, then it is no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work" (Romans 11:6).

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Romans 4:4-5).

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal (aionion) life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:23).

"For by grace are ye saved . . . it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8).

Let not our own crude sense of right and wrong rob us of The Truth of this wonderful Gift of Grace. Romans 3:24 states we are "being justified freely by His Grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." What it does not say is that this freely given justification is because the Lord Jesus earned a legal righteousness for us by His obedience to the law of Moses. Such an idea robs the Grace Gift of its Glory and brings God down to the level of a bargainer with His Son, whereas it is God Himself Who loved the world, God Who sent His Son, God Who justifies us freely, God Who provided the ransom which is payment in full for all sin, past, present and future.

Justification Through Redemption​

Where some schools of theology teach justification through "imputed obedience" under the law, God declared that it is through the "redemption" that is in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:24). The same truth appears in Romans 5:8-9 where we read: "Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by His blood", and again in Romans 4:25: "Who was delivered up because of our offenses, and raised again for our justification." Christ's death dealt with our sin. His blood at once redeems, atones, and makes us near. Redemption sets us free, and long before The Dispensation of Grace dawned, David realized that God would reckon righteousness where He forgave sin.

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Rom. 4:6-8).

It was necessary that sin should be righteously dealt with, and that has been done, but it is The Glory of The Gospel that the same Love that prompted our redemption and our deliverance can provide gratuitously, freely, and without cause (except in the Great Love of GodWho Loves us.) "a righteousness of God apart from the law."

Shall we reject this Loving Gift because we do not see just how God could give it to us freely and without some external moving cause on our part? We undervalue far too much the initial movement of God in our Salvation. Who constrained God in the first place to provide a ransom? What works of righteousness were accomplished, and by whom, before He would send His Gift of Love down to die? And all that to a world that rejected Him and was dead in trespasses and sin.

If we take God at His Word and do not add to it or remove it from its context, do we not begin to experience a knowledge of Love that surpasses understanding? Then Scriptures in this Pure Light impart much fuller enlightenment, for example, the words of Romans 8:32:

"He that spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?"

Here is God's own argument. The "Free Gift" of righteousness to the believer in the Lord Jesus is freely covered and provided for in the one Greatest Gift of all, His Own Son. Let no believer ever think that their righteousness is not resting upon a firm enough foundation. All our Everlasting Lives rest on the uninfluenced Grace of God. Its bedrock is The Love of God that changes not and The Truth of The Precious Gift from God, Who is Christ Jesus Himself. The Father gave The Perfect Gift to fallen mankind, and having given His Son, God will freely give with Him, not grudgingly give or have to be persuaded to give, all things that are necessary for the believer's life and glory. This does not refer only to the act of justification but covers all our needs and our eternal blessings.

Justification has altogether a legal signification and has respect, not to what the man is in actual character, but to what the man is held to be in juridical estimation. It is not that change found in a believer, by which he is made a just person, but it is that change in his relation to the law and the Lawgiver. The believers are then reckoned a just person. It describes not the individual's moral rightness but his legal right, and however inseparably the two may be conjoined, in fact, they ought not on that account to be confounded in the idea.

It has been said that the doctrine of justification by faith is held by both Protestant and Roman schools of thought, everything depending, of course, upon exactly what is meant by "faith." It is good, therefore, to be able to express what we mean concerning the freeness of this Gift, and the fact that faith has no merit in it by quoting, insistently, the language of Titus 3:7: "Being justified by His Grace."

"Now if you doubt that I am Christ's
If one suspicion lurks
I'll show by deeds that I am His
I'm justified by works.

"I praise the Lord 'tis all of Him
The grace (Romans 3:24), the faith (Romans 5:1), the blood (Romans 5:9).
The resurrection power (Romans 4:25), the works (James 2:18-24),
I'm justified by God".

(With acknowledgments to the unknown author).

Now, the rewards we earn by faithful service can be lost, but never The Gift of Life;​

I feel the person who wrote this needed to add a very important statement to this line ''Justification by Grace is what we believe and what we intend when using the more common expression "justification by faith" as "it is the gift of God".

Namely, the gift of faith is only given to those that open the door to Jesus Rev 3:20. God draws near to us only when we draw near to Him James 4:8. We draw near to Him and open the door to Jesus when we truthfully repent of all our sins Psalms 51:17, James 4:9.

 

[KingJ]

The bible tells us to fear God in many places, if we can not lose our salvation why do we need to fear God??

We can think we are saved.

Paul makes it clear in 1 Cor 5 that a 'brother' in incest was a 'brother so called'.

The Bible tells us in many places we must endure to the end, why do we need to endure to the end if we can loose our salvation??

OSAS is not a doctrine of man's ability, rather of God's. God is not a fool that grafts a demon into heaven or a fool that would send to hell a true servant for some mistakes later in life just before they die.

Anti - OSAS thought has to be the most naivest and silly view of God possible.

OSAS seems like a dangerous doctrine that might make some people falsely secure in going to heaven.

If OSAS is person based, sure. But as I have explained many times, OSAS is God based. When you espouse an anti - OSAS belief you are mocking God's intelligence, not man's.

All OSAS believers agree that many 'think' they are saved. We have perfect common ground with anti - OSAS in this space.

We Already have churches full of people who call themselves Christian but have not been born again,; we have many pastors that call themselves Christians who are not born again.

God would not graft a demon into heaven. If God gives us a revelation of Jesus being Lord, as 1 Cor 12:3 states will happen, rest assured He has first judged the depths of the heart and mind as only He can Jer 17:9-12.

Many who call themselves Christians and are not, usually need to go the extra mile in 'mustering' up faith in believing a man who worked the earth 2000 years ago being God of the universe. All the hairs on my Christian back raise when I hear 'Christians' speak too much about positivity and mustering up faith.

I would be much more inclined to be posting about warning of people that think they are saved but have not been changed and need to be born again then posting Doctrine that is not 100% clear in the bible,

That is true. This is how Paul preached.

But, what is also true is the fact that an anti - OSAS belief mocks God.

The correct message is Paul's warnings to ensure we are saved + God is not a fool that will send His devout servants to their greatest enemy for all of eternity after a few mistakes of sin.

I cannot think of a more brain dead view of our God.

 

[KingJ]

Hi Complete I have one question for you do you fear God?

That is a silly question.

Fearing God is something we will do / have for all eternity.

God can at any point in time, 'end us'.

What fear a Christian does not have, is fear of being separated from the one they love. IE, Going to hell.

 

[KingJ]

@B-A-C

You copy paste your same passages in every OSAS / anti - OSAS discussion , instead of 'dealing' with the counter arguments raised. As highlighted in this thread Non-OSAS belief - undermines the cross.

In my honest opinion, I can not understand how an anti - OSAS belief does not imply that God perverts justice and is evil.

I asked a question in that thread that has to this day gone unanswered:

''Can you take a stab at explaining to me how the below is not a perversion of justice. Scripture is crystal clear that God will not be wicked and pervert justice Job 34:12.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

- KingJ, REPENTS of his sins and serves God as much as he can for FOUR hours on a cross next to Jesus. Dies and goes to ETERNAL BLISS. Forever blessed, happy and covered by the blood of Jesus.

- @B-A-C, REPENTS of his sins and serves God for FIFTY years. Suffers in prison for being anti LGBTQ++ for five years. In year 51 commits a few mortal sins (just like David). Dies and goes to hell, a place of ETERNAL TORMENT, torturous fire, no joy, no blood covering, forever separated and in torment. All of eternity an enemy of God.''

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I conclude that this is an EPIC perversion of justice and believe that every person on the planet except for anti - OSAS believers will agree. You truly do have a lot of explaining to do. I hope you realize that and don't just dodge the point being made.

 

[B-A-C]

I asked a question in that thread that has to this day gone unanswered:

''Can you take a stab at explaining to me how the below is not a perversion of justice. Scripture is crystal clear that God will not be wicked and pervert justice Job 34:12.

I have answered this a few times, but the simple answer is, your idea of justice and God's definition of justice simply don't line up.

I can not understand how an anti - OSAS belief does not imply that God perverts justice and is evil.

...and some of us can not understand how it doesn't.

- @B-A-C, REPENTS of his sins and serves God for FIFTY years. Suffers in prison for being anti LGBTQ++ for five years. In year 51 commits a few mortal sins (just like David). Dies and goes to hell, a place of ETERNAL TORMENT, torturous fire, no joy, no blood covering, forever separated and in torment. All of eternity an enemy of God.''

Absolutely. In a sports game, you can be ahead the whole games, for 59 of the 60 minutes, but then the other team gets ahead on the last 10 seconds. It doesn't matter who was ahead the whole game.
It matters who was ahead when the game ends. Solomon is a great example of this.

1Kin 11:4; For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been.
1Kin 11:5; For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians and after Milcom the detestable idol of the Ammonites.
1Kin 11:6; Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not follow the LORD fully, as David his father had done.
1Kin 11:7; Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable idol of Moab, on the mountain which is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the detestable idol of the sons of Ammon.

Even Judas followed Jesus for 3 years, compared to a betrayal that took only a few minutes.

You could be married to your wife for 30 years, and have a one night stand with a prostitute, that's all it takes, just a few minutes to ruin everything.

Now I'm not saying it's that easy to lose your salvation, it's not like your car keys... "Now where did I put that salvation again, I had it right here yesterday."
It take effort, it takes a concentrated purpose. It doesn't happen with one sin, or two, or three. It happens with a lifestyle on continued willful sin over a
period of time. How much time? I don't know, but God does. It's probably different for different people. But I also believe it's never too late to repent
and come back.

 

[Curtis]

All true children of God experience this in their lives, and if not they are not a child of God.

Heb 12:5 And have you forgotten the encouraging words God spoke to you as his children? He said, “My child, don’t make light of the LORD’s discipline, and don’t give up when he corrects you.
Heb 12:6 For the LORD disciplines those he loves, and he punishes each one he accepts as his child.”
Heb 12:7 As you endure this divine discipline, remember that God is treating you as his own children. Who ever heard of a child who is never disciplined by its father?
Heb 12:8 If God doesn’t discipline you as he does all of his children, it means that you are illegitimate and are not really his children at all.
Heb 12:9 Since we respected our earthly fathers who disciplined us, shouldn’t we submit even more to the discipline of the Father of our spirits, and live forever?
Heb 12:10 For our earthly fathers disciplined us for a few years, doing the best they knew how. But God’s discipline is always good for us, so that we might share in his holiness.
Heb 12:11 No discipline is enjoyable while it is happening—it’s painful! But afterward there will be a peaceful harvest of right living for those who are trained in this way. (NLT)

 

[KingJ]

I have answered this a few times, but the simple answer is, your idea of justice and God's definition of justice simply don't line up.

You have not answered it. You dodge and move the goal post. It is not my 'idea' of justice. I am quoting a warped anti - OSAS's idea of justice.

...and some of us can not understand how it doesn't.

Then, please explain how it is not a perversion of justice......

A reply from you needs to start with ''this example is not a perversion of justice for these reasons.....''

Absolutely. In a sports game, you can be ahead the whole games, for 59 of the 60 minutes, but then the other team gets ahead on the last 10 seconds. It doesn't matter who was ahead the whole game.
It matters who was ahead when the game ends.

As I have said before, this is a terrible example to make your case. In any game it does matter who is ahead for 59 mins. In the case of my example and the servant that serves God for fifty years and not for one or two years. He would have been hitting home runs and great shots for fifty years and for one or two years, he gets tapped out from exhaustion of running and falls over hard. The score is 50 to 2 (48 point lead). The guy that serves God in my example for four hours, did not hit a single home run. He barely ran. He lived for four hours on a cross. If you are a manager, which player will you keep? It is a no brainer.

If you are trying to make the point that the person who served God for fifty years and then fell is not a true servant. Well now you are stepping onto an OSAS belief, which I can agree with. BUT you do not believe in OSAS. So you cannot make that argument. You need to take fifty years of service and subtract two years of mistakes. If God ended his life at any point in year one to fifty, he would be in heaven with more rewards then the person that merely served God for four hours.

Now, considering this, please explain how my example is not a perversion of justice.

Solomon is a great example of this.

1Kin 11:4; For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been.
1Kin 11:5; For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians and after Milcom the detestable idol of the Ammonites.
1Kin 11:6; Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not follow the LORD fully, as David his father had done.
1Kin 11:7; Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable idol of Moab, on the mountain which is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the detestable idol of the sons of Ammon.

Even Judas followed Jesus for 3 years, compared to a betrayal that took only a few minutes.

As I explained above, with both Solomon and Judas, if anti - OSAS was true, you would need to weigh good verse bad deeds. Which raises many questions on a works based salvation. As an OSAS believer I could argue the sincerity of their hearts from day one. But that aside, Judas barely served, he followed. Disciples were to serve after Jesus was crucified. Solomon, I would not bet on him being in hell. Just like David. God is not a fool. He considers everything.

You could be married to your wife for 30 years, and have a one night stand with a prostitute, that's all it takes, just a few minutes to ruin everything.

A comparable example would be: You are married to your wife for fifty years. She 'served' the marriage daily and treated you so well. In year fifty one she falls and cheats on you. You divorce her and throw her to your greatest enemy for all eternity. She is raped and tortured for all eternity in a men's prison. (You teach that hell was made for the angels and that those who make one or two mistakes late in their lives will go off to eternal torture.) The girl that only dated you for four hours, you gift her your entire savings and treat her like gold for all eternity. Explain how this is not a perversion of justice.

Our laws force the man to continue providing for his wife if there is a divorce. But Christians, anti - OSAS believers, would not do that?

A Christian should still love and care for his wife, even if she cheats. If she was good and faithful for fifty years, cheating was clearly a 'mistake'.

Now I'm not saying it's that easy to lose your salvation, it's not like your car keys... "Now where did I put that salvation again, I had it right here yesterday."
It take effort, it takes a concentrated purpose. It doesn't happen with one sin, or two, or three. It happens with a lifestyle on continued willful sin over a
period of time. How much time? I don't know, but God does. It's probably different for different people. But I also believe it's never too late to repent
and come back.

Now you are simply moving the goal posts from length of service to depth of service and length of rebellion to depth of rebellion. There is much truth to depth, this is why I believe in OSAS. But for anti - OSAS this is merely moving the goal posts.

In both length and depth of rebellion, an anti - OSAS believer has to explain how the one that serves God at a 'depth' of good intent for MORE then FOUR hours can go to hell when someone who ONLY serves God at a 'depth' of good intent for FOUR hours does not.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I pray you see how your entire post is dodging answering the question of how an anti - OSAS belief with my example is not a perversion of justice.

I repeat:

- KingJ, REPENTS of his sins and serves God at a DEPTH of good intent for FOUR hours on a cross next to Jesus. Dies and goes to ETERNAL BLISS.

- @B-A-C, REPENTS of his sins and serves God at a DEPTH of good intent for FIFTY years. In year 51 to 53 commits a few mortal sins, has a sinful lifestyle (as you say). Dies and goes ETERNAL TORMENT.

Please explain how this example is not a perversion of justice.