Case #2 For Tongue Speakers

[Enow]

You come across a former member you have not seen in a long while. He was dressed in ragtag clothings with skulls and other emblems of death on his attire.

You came up to him and greeted him. He declared right off that he was no longer a christian, and that he never was. Moved with compassion, you'd asked why, for you had seen him so filled with the joy of the Lord.

He stated that God predestined whom He will to save. You kind of acknowledged that and inquired further.

He stated that all those that believe in Him will have the Holy Spirit. You acknowledge that as the truth and inquired further.

He stated that God the Father will refuse no gift of the Holy Spirit if he asked for Him. You agreed.

He concluded by stating, he had asked for the Holy Spirit with evidence of tongues for years, and he never got it, therefore he must not be predestined to be one of His children then. He was never really His.

What would you say to him? What scriptures would you use? Or would you attempt to encourage him to keep asking for Him even though it is obvious he has given up entirely? ........Or would you agree with him?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No peeking at the others' answers first. Post your response and then read the others' responses.

 

[Coconut]

I open the Scripture and begin to read...


BBE 1Co 12:1 But about the things of the spirit, my brothers, it is not right for you to be without teaching.
1Co 12:2 You are conscious that when you were Gentiles, in whatever way you were guided, you went after images without voice or power.
1Co 12:3 So it is my desire for you to be clear about this; that no one is able to say by the Spirit of God that Jesus is cursed; and no one is able to say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.
1Co 12:4 Now there are different qualities given to men, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are different sorts of servants, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are different operations, but the same God, who is working all things in all.
1Co 12:7 But to every man some form of the Spirit's working is given for the common good.
1Co 12:8 For to one are given words of wisdom through the Spirit; and to another words of knowledge through the same Spirit:
1Co 12:9 To another faith in the same Spirit; and to another the power of taking away disease, by the one Spirit;
1Co 12:10 And to another the power of working wonders; and to another the prophet's word; and to another the power of testing spirits; to another different sorts of tongues; and to another the power of making clear the sense of the tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these are the operations of the one and the same Spirit, giving to every man separately as his pleasure is.
1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and has a number of parts, and all the parts make one body, so is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For through the baptism of the one Spirit we were all formed into one body, Jews or Greeks, servants or free men, and were all made full of the same Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body is not one part, but a number of parts.
1Co 12:15 If the foot says, Because I am not the hand, I am not a part of the body; it is no less a part of the body.
1Co 12:16 And if the ear says, Because I am not the eye, I am not a part of the body; it is a part of the body all the same.
1Co 12:17 If all the body was an eye, where would be the hearing? if all was hearing, where would be the smelling?
1Co 12:18 But now God has put every one of the parts in the body as it was pleasing to him.
1Co 12:19 And if they were all one part, where would the body be?
1Co 12:20 But now they are all different parts, but one body.
1Co 12:21 And the eye may not say to the hand, I have no need of you: or again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
1Co 12:22 No, those parts which seem to be feeble are the more necessary;
1Co 12:23 And to those parts of the body which seem to have less honour we give all the more honour; and to those parts of the body which are a cause of shame to us we give the greater respect;
1Co 12:24 But those parts of the body which are beautiful have no need of such care: and so the body has been joined together by God in such a way as to give more honour to those parts which had need of it;
1Co 12:25 So that there might be no division in the body; but all the parts might have the same care for one another.
1Co 12:26 And if there is pain in one part of the body, all the parts will be feeling it; or if one part is honoured, all the parts will be glad.
1Co 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and every one of you the separate parts of it.
1Co 12:28 And God has put some in the church, first, Apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then those with wonder-working powers, then those with the power of taking away disease, helpers, wise guides, users of strange tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all Apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? have all the power of working wonders?
1Co 12:30 Are all able to take away disease? have all the power of tongues? are all able to give their sense?
1Co 12:31 But let your desires be turned to the more important things given by the Spirit. And now I am pointing out to you an even better way.

 

[Gracealone]

God never predestined anyone to hell, that is a false teaching.

For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten Son, that" Whosoever" believe in him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Who so ever, that includes "anyone" who will come to him in faith believing.
All you have to do to be a " who so ever" is walk through that door,of belief in the sacrifice of his Son, asking for forgiveness, and you will find your name written in the Lambs book of life.

He is not willing that any should perish, but that All might come to a knowledge of God.

The Bible says to us, Those who come to me I will no wise cast out. Jn.6:37
That is an awesome promise.
God said it, and he cant lie, so by faith I believe......praise His name.

To say speaking in tongues is the only evidence of salvation is also a lie for his word also says of the gifts, do all speak speak in tongues?.....1Cor.12:30
The gifts of the Holy Spirit are given as He wills, not as we will.

 

[missi]

He stated that all those that believe in Him will have the Holy Spirit. You acknowledge that as the truth and inquired further.

He stated that God the Father will refuse no gift of the Holy Spirit if he asked for Him. You agreed.

He concluded by stating, he had asked for the Holy Spirit with evidence of tongues for years, and he never got it, therefore he must not be predestined to be one of His children then. He was never really His.

What would you say to him? What scriptures would you use? Or would you attempt to encourage him to keep asking for Him even though it is obvious he has given up entirely? ........Or would you agree with him?

I have had the same longing for the Holy Spirit as your friend had -- the evidence of utterance - speaking in tongues. I have asked God for it for years, and I have never gotten it. I thought something might be wrong with me, and sometimes Satan even whispers things to me like, "God doesn't give you His Holy Spirit... You aren't worthy of Him then... Bully for you... Stop longing for Him... If He doesn't want to give His Holy Spirit to you, there are many other things around here.. blablabla" (which are very annoying) and sometimes I succumb to those whispers which results to depression and eventual breakdown leading to a sin-after-sin period. Due the sin-after-sin period, I'd feel rather unclean and then come up with the conclusion that, yeah, I'm not worthy of the Lord... that's why He doesn't give me His Holy Spirit... and a whole lot of foolish ideas.

But God isn't like that. He did say in Luke 11:13 that He will not refuse the Holy Spirit to His children who ask Him -- but we have to wait -- as Jesus told His disciples when He was going to ascend into heaven. Plus 1 Corinthians 12 states that not everyone can have utterance. I have witnessed several pastors and missionaries who are total servants of the Lord that do not speak in tongues, but are full of His Holy Spirit and have His anointing. However, for some unknowable reason, I still foolishly sought for the utterance from the Holy Spirit which was apparently not for me.

I am 17 1/2 now, and I must admit for 17 years I have wasted my life, money, and effort on the enemy -- based a lot on his deception. Now if God didn't care about me -- if He didn't die on the Cross for me -- just for some people that are, rather, unlike me -- basing on His witholding of the gift of utterance, He wouldn't wait for me that long. Two Saturdays ago God told me that He loved me through an intercessor. He also told me that I was to become a prayer intercessor, as it was what He had intended me to be. He told me that I am a favored of His -- a Queen Esther, specifically. And I didn't have the gift of utterance even.

God's love for a person is not limited to the giving and/or denial of certain gifts of the Holy Spirit. He's done a lot on the Cross of Calvary for everyone -- everyone, that no amount of anything -- anything could deprive a person from receiving Him and His love.

We just have to wait for the Holy Spirit, we might even already have Him, we just lack the discernment and the faith.


~Bless you Coconut for sharing that passage.

 

[Enow]

I open the Scripture and begin to read...


BBE 1Co 12:1 -31

Thank you for your response. Hopefully, the Lord will have the Bible handy should anyone come across someone like that.

In the meantime, is the church preventing this misconception from occurring? Are they reminding them of those truths?

I wonder if it is still possible for someone to believe otherwise in spite of what was shared by the scriptures? Would that be because someone or a group of people are still re-enforcing the errant belief to the individual in the church.. or outside the church?

When was the last time a survey was done in regards to the topic so that everyone is tending to edifying the body in the knowledge of Him as opposed to the many false teachings circulating out there?

When was the last time the Gospel was preached as a reminder of our faith in Him and all the promises for coming to Him so they do not look for the fulfillment of those promises eslewhere?

Those are rhetorical questions; you do not have to answer. Just something to think about.

 

[Frederick]

I open the Scripture and begin to read...


BBE 1Co 12:1 But about the things of the spirit, my brothers, it is not right for you to be without teaching.
1Co 12:2 You are conscious that when you were Gentiles, in whatever way you were guided, you went after images without voice or power.
1Co 12:3 So it is my desire for you to be clear about this; that no one is able to say by the Spirit of God that Jesus is cursed; and no one is able to say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.
1Co 12:4 Now there are different qualities given to men, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are different sorts of servants, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are different operations, but the same God, who is working all things in all.
1Co 12:7 But to every man some form of the Spirit's working is given for the common good.
1Co 12:8 For to one are given words of wisdom through the Spirit; and to another words of knowledge through the same Spirit:
1Co 12:9 To another faith in the same Spirit; and to another the power of taking away disease, by the one Spirit;
1Co 12:10 And to another the power of working wonders; and to another the prophet's word; and to another the power of testing spirits; to another different sorts of tongues; and to another the power of making clear the sense of the tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these are the operations of the one and the same Spirit, giving to every man separately as his pleasure is.
1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and has a number of parts, and all the parts make one body, so is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For through the baptism of the one Spirit we were all formed into one body, Jews or Greeks, servants or free men, and were all made full of the same Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body is not one part, but a number of parts.
1Co 12:15 If the foot says, Because I am not the hand, I am not a part of the body; it is no less a part of the body.
1Co 12:16 And if the ear says, Because I am not the eye, I am not a part of the body; it is a part of the body all the same.
1Co 12:17 If all the body was an eye, where would be the hearing? if all was hearing, where would be the smelling?
1Co 12:18 But now God has put every one of the parts in the body as it was pleasing to him.
1Co 12:19 And if they were all one part, where would the body be?
1Co 12:20 But now they are all different parts, but one body.
1Co 12:21 And the eye may not say to the hand, I have no need of you: or again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
1Co 12:22 No, those parts which seem to be feeble are the more necessary;
1Co 12:23 And to those parts of the body which seem to have less honour we give all the more honour; and to those parts of the body which are a cause of shame to us we give the greater respect;
1Co 12:24 But those parts of the body which are beautiful have no need of such care: and so the body has been joined together by God in such a way as to give more honour to those parts which had need of it;
1Co 12:25 So that there might be no division in the body; but all the parts might have the same care for one another.
1Co 12:26 And if there is pain in one part of the body, all the parts will be feeling it; or if one part is honoured, all the parts will be glad.
1Co 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and every one of you the separate parts of it.
1Co 12:28 And God has put some in the church, first, Apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then those with wonder-working powers, then those with the power of taking away disease, helpers, wise guides, users of strange tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all Apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? have all the power of working wonders?
1Co 12:30 Are all able to take away disease? have all the power of tongues? are all able to give their sense?
1Co 12:31 But let your desires be turned to the more important things given by the Spirit. And now I am pointing out to you an even better way.

Thank you for that excellent testimony. The Holy Spirit bestows different gifts on each and every one of us. I used to write fiction until I realised He gave me the ability to write - I now write for my Father in Heaven. What I write does not come from me - I am merely one of his zillions of secretaries. Because despite what I have or don't have in this world, without God, I am nothing.

 

[Enow]

Thanks for your sharing, missi.

We just have to wait for the Holy Spirit, we might even already have Him, we just lack the discernment and the faith.

By His grace, I testify by the scriptures this hope in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. ......

John 3: 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Hebrews 11:6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Ephesians 1:12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,


Galatians 3:14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith....26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Romans 10:8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 10:12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2: 13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Jesus gave this saying as an example of what being saved means.

Matthew 9:17Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

That is why we can rest in Jesus when we came to Him.

2 Corinthians 1:19For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea. 20For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. 21Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;

Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

2 Corinthians 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

1 Corinthians 2:2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

When believers are resting in the promises of Jesus that they are filled with the Spirit as promised, then they are able to convey the full Gospel of Jesus Christ as the Good News to man. Those waiting for the Holy Spirit still, just need to be reminded of the faith in Jesus Christ that they have the Spirit as promised by the scriptures so they can go forth and preach Jesus Christ and him crucified, and nothing else in His name.

 

[Enow]

God never predestined anyone to hell, that is a false teaching.

Still, a person would think that if nothing promised him from God was happening to him with evidence.

For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten Son, that" Whosoever" believe in him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Who so ever, that includes "anyone" who will come to him in faith believing.

That is the important point of faith that must always be declared when correcting anyone about how they are saved.

All you have to do to be a " who so ever" is walk through that door,of belief in the sacrifice of his Son, asking for forgiveness, and you will find your name written in the Lambs book of life.

And that door is Jesus. There is no need for any other door. The error I find multiplying exponentially is when the door is being affered towards the Spirit to get the Holy Spirit or the gifts of the Spirit and yet God never gave that invitation nor a door to the Spirit, but to the Son. It is by the Son we have received the promise of the Spirit and it is by the Son we get the gifts and fruits of the Spirit. No other way.

He is not willing that any should perish, but that All might come to a knowledge of God.

John 3:14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The Bible says to us, Those who come to me I will no wise cast out. Jn.6:37
That is an awesome promise.
God said it, and he cant lie, so by faith I believe......praise His name.

I believe that promise of God in Jesus Christ as well. It is the glory of God.

To say speaking in tongues is the only evidence of salvation is also a lie for his word also says of the gifts, do all speak speak in tongues?.....1Cor.12:30
The gifts of the Holy Spirit are given as He wills, not as we will.

I would say that this is the only sure fire evidence of salvation:

1 John 4:14And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 15Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 16And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Romans 10:8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Any other evidence needed by the believer to seek after is just labouring in unbelief. Any believer that is confessing that he or she believes Jesus is the Son of God proves that they are His, otherwise, they would never have known the Truth.

1 John 2: 21I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

 

[dchena]

Okay, first of all, I am not aware of the specific scripture that the two in the example are quoting, so if it was me specifcally in this conversation, we would both be opening the Bible and looking at these scriptures as they are placed in the Bible. So bear with me everyone, as I try to put all the new things I am learning into a coherant, and valuable order. It's long, but I think it's worth the read. I'm kind of surprised at all I have picked up in my short time as a Christian.

I'd go about my response in the context that he is having a crisis of faith. He has turned away from faith and is instead relying on the gift of tongues as evidence of his salvation. I would also be keeping in mind that he might be letting the 'laws' and expectations of people (aka laws of the flesh, of the world, the enemy) pressure him into believing that he needs tongues as proof of his salvation.

First, the temptation of Jesus - Mathew 4:5-7
"Then the devil took him to the holy city and placed him on the pinnacle of the temple, saying to him, 'If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down; for it is written,
"He will command his angles concerning you", and "On their hands they will bear you up, so that you will not dash you foot against a stone."
Jesus said to him, 'Again it is written, "Do not put the Lord your God to the test."'

If the Bible says all those who ask for the gift of tongues will receive this gift (I'd have to verify by reading for myself this scripture) then it will happen. But who in the Bible actually received what God had promised them in the time frame that they demanded it from God? The only promise that is immediatly fulfilled is our salvation the moment we accept the Lord as our savior. I could be wrong, so I am open to discussion and enlightment on this matter, but as far as I know, and have been taught, God does not operate this way. Where in the Bible does it say that you will receive spiritual gifts as proof to you that you are saved? No where that I am aware of. But God rewards those who have faith. So, then what is faith?

Hebrews 11:1-3
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Indeed, by faith our ancestors received approval. By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was made from things that are not visible.

Whether or not someone can speak in tongues does not verify or nullify that fact that you have received God's grace and are living with the Holy Spirit dwelling within you. Faith is what guarantees our salvation. Look at Abraham in Romans 4:3
For what does the scripture say? 'Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'
And Romans 4:20-21
No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, being fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.

Then on to...

Philippians 1:6
I am confident of this, that the one who began a good work among you will bring it to completion by the day of Jesus Christ.

We are incomplete works in Christ. If you are still alive, there is still time for change and growth. And we are not in control of how the Spirit works in us. We did not begin it and we will not finish it. We do not direct it and we can not determine the specific route the Holy Spirit will change us. We cannot demand gifts of the Holy Spirit on our terms. For who would need faith if it worked this way? We only know that we are new in Christ, and the changes that come from the Holy Spirit working in our lives has set us on a trajectory to becoming more Christ-like and pleasing to God. But your salvation was secured the moment you accepted Christ as your saviour.

Relying on, and asking God for, the gift of tongues to prove to you, or other people, that you are part of this great work is you trying to control God and the Holy Spirit. The opposite of testing is trusting. If you are testing, you are not trusting. God responds to our prayers in his perfect ways and his perfect timing. Just think of the burden that will be lifted from your heart when this crisis of faith is resolved. Think of the relief you will experience, and the love, which you have already known, that will overflow your heart. You are accepted and adopted into God's family through faith, regardless of whether or not you speak in tongues.

I would warn this fellow to be discerning. Who is giving him these doubts and causing him to demand signs of the Holy Spirit as proof? It is not from God. We could talk again about the temptation of Christ and how the devil takes scripture out of context to manipulate people. I would point out to him the angst that he is experiencing, as evidenced by his clothes and his feelings of rejection he has expressed. I would suggest that these feelings began the moment he started believing he was without God. That this is the difference. His unhappiness and feelings of unworthiness are what it feels like to be living his life with his back turned towards God. We could talk about the prodigal son and how he was welcomed home, and I would suggest to him that he can still have that. All he has to do is call out to the Father.
For in Romans 8:14-17
For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God. For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received a spirit of adoption. When we cry, 'Abba! Father!' it is that very spirit bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ -- if, in fact, we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.

He does not need tongues to prove this. And he has not been rejected by God. He has been misled.

Then I would ask him if we could pray together. If he did not want to, I would pray for him, that he may be turned again towards the Father, and resolve this crisis, and become stronger in faith than he ever was.

dchena

Edited in: then I'd go read what coconut said, and add that in! I knew that was there, but forgot about it. Thanks.

 

[Coconut]

And we are not in control of how the Spirit works in us. We did not begin it and we will not finish it. We do not direct it and we can not determine the specific route the Holy Spirit will change us...

amen! ~Glory to God!

 

[Boanerges]

We certainly do not direct the Holy Spirit but can definitely move in the gifts He places in us. All such things are done according to His leading. In my experience the closer we are to His heart the more we hear His voice then the more we move in those gifts bringing glory to our Father. It is our job to be sensitive to His leading.

 

[Ncdataman]

We certainly do not direct the Holy Spirit but can definitely move in the gifts He places in us. All such things are done according to His leading. In my experience the closer we are to His heart the more we hear His voice then the more we move in those gifts bringing glory to our Father. It is our job to be sensitive to His leading.

Great post I totally agree!

IN Christ,
NC

 

[hollyhobble]

Tongues

I'm sorry but I still don't get it.