Cheap Grace

[B-A-C]

One of the most quoted parts of the book deals with the distinction which Bonhoeffer makes between "cheap" and "costly" grace. According to Bonhoeffer,

"cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline. Communion without confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ."
Cheap grace, Bonhoeffer says, is to hear the gospel preached as follows: "Of course you have sinned, but now everything is forgiven, so you can stay as you are and enjoy the consolations of forgiveness." The main defect of such a proclamation is that it contains no demand for discipleship. In contrast to cheap grace,

"costly grace confronts us as a gracious call to follow Jesus, it comes as a word of forgiveness to the broken spirit and the contrite heart. It is costly because it compels a man to submit to the yoke of Christ and follow him; it is grace because Jesus says: 'My yoke is easy and my burden is light.'"

I am reading "The Cost of Discipleship" by Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
Definitely a must read. It was published in the 1930's in Nazi Germany. Bonhoeffer was eventually killed
for his beliefs.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Dear Brother @bac

I understand the correlation between an active faith versus an inactive one. Yet both fall under the same Saving Grace. Which to me can no way be construed as being cheap. I guess I just have an issue with the very premise or even the term being used to denote that God's Grace as being at anytime somehow "cheap" or somehow "cheapened" by any man's action or lack thereof. The price paid which he does seem to acknowledge, really does not change the pricelessness of the Sacrifice by which God's Grace is received. Alleluia.

In a certain way I wonder if this is an attempt at "shaming" a person to doing better in discipleship? I still don't really know the validity of such a proposition in moving some to or others away from improvement or even the faith if that were even possible for man's words to do so.

Not having read the book, it is difficult to see the entire point attempting to be made outside of the title. The man's life surely exhibited a call to action that many would do well to emulate. So, I hope as you continue to finish up with the book that you can provide us a synopsis of what can be gained from what this man who we can believe is with the Lord has put to words. I would be really appreciate your thoughts which I greatly respect.

Thank-you brother for sharing.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[amadeus2]

The "cheapest" kind of grace is still very costly, is it not?

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." Rom 12:1

Anyone not performing his "reasonable service" in the end of his course may find the Lord saying to him:

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matt 7:23

 

[B-A-C]

The price paid which he does seem to acknowledge, really does not change the pricelessness of the Sacrifice by which God's Grace is received. Alleluia.

The cost to Jesus doesn't change. You are correct. He gave His whole life.
But some won't even accept that gift. Most think it isn't needed, because there is no god, or no life after this.
Others will accept it and treasure it.
Still other's will accept and treat it like it never happened. It's just another trinket I've acquired on my journey.

In a certain way I wonder if this is an attempt at "shaming" a person to doing better in discipleship?

When Jesus went to visit Mary and Martha, he didn't "shame" Martha. He simply reminded her what was more important.
The question of once saved always saved never comes up in the book. It wasn't even a question.

But rather, hey the Son of God gave His life for you. He was beaten, and whipped, and nailed. For you.
Do you have any respect for that? The Father sent His only son down here to take our sins away.
Does that mean anything to you?

You can call that shaming if you want to. I simply call it respect for my God.

==============================================================================

My personal opinion is (this is not from the book)
People have lost the ability to respect anything. They don't respect their parents,
their elders, their teachers, their leaders (we could debate, why this is so), their
pastors, and they don't even respect God.

They accept His salvation, but they don't respect it. They wade through Jesus's blood on the way to the next sin, they don't even see they are in it.

This culture of "I'm entitled to everything" has spilled over into Christianity,
and I've even had a few young people tell me. "God did this for me, because I'm worth
it. I deserved it. It fact, I deserve more than this. So there better be something good
for me in heaven when I get there. In the meantime, I going to keep on doing what I've
been doing, just in case there's nothing good for me when I get there."

Cheap grace wasn't cheap for Jesus.
Cheap grace is how people treat the grace that was given to them.

Anyone not performing his "reasonable service" in the end of his course may find the Lord saying to him:

Matt 25:24; “And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed.
Matt 25:25; And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’
Matt 25:26; “But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.
Matt 25:30; Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 12:45; But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will be a long time in coming,’ and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk;
Luke 12:46; the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
Luke 12:47; And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,

I understand the correlation between an active faith versus an inactive one. Yet both fall under the same Saving Grace.

This is where we would have to disagree.

 

[Christ4Ever]

The cost to Jesus doesn't change. You are correct. He gave His whole life.
But some won't even accept that gift. Most think it isn't needed, because there is no god, or no life after this.
Others will accept it and treasure it.
Still other's will accept and treat it like it never happened. It's just another trinket I've acquired on my journey.

IMO acceptance is a totally different topic and does not drive the gift of Grace's value or worth. It can be increased, decreased or accepted not at all. It is never "cheap" for the value was determined by the giver , who is God (vehicle of such Grace is His Son on the Cross) not the recipient who is us and the use or lack thereof it is put to/exhibited. If the word had been "Disgraceful use of Grace" then I wouldn't have a problem with it. For then it would be attached to the recipient and not to the Grace given.

When Jesus went to visit Mary and Martha, he didn't "shame" Martha. He simply reminded her what was more important.
The question of once saved always saved never comes up in the book. It wasn't even a question.



But rather, hey the Son of God gave His life for you. He was beaten, and whipped, and nailed. For you.
Do you have any respect for that? The Father sent His only son down here to take our sins away.
Does that mean anything to you?

You can call that shaming if you want to. I simply call it respect for my God.

So you finished the book! Excellent. My impression was that you hadn't yet done so. My hope now is that you might better answer the question concerning "shaming" as a possibility/intent of this brother. Notice when I mentioned "shaming" in my previous post it was posed as a question? I was looking for your opinion if this was a possibility or the direction the writer was taking to move people to discipleship.

As far your reference to the handling of the question and statement made by Martha by Jesus'. It wasn't the point of my question. Plus I don't see it as "shaming" on our Lord's part, though she might have certainly felt so "shamed". The difference between this book and the example you have offered is that Jesus did not initiate the conversation with Martha, while this book is initiated to what I can only assume is to identify to the Church/Body of Christ of short comings he was seeing within the church during his time. Certainly one we can appreciate even in our own day.

I hope you understand that I'm flying a bit blind here and that you're my eyes to knowing the intent of the writer. Even then you might not be able to gather totally what was driving him, unless it's so stated in the book. So, my probing and plodding questions to you brother. :smile: I do this because I value your insight or I won't be asking.

==============================================================================

My personal opinion is (this is not from the book)
People have lost the ability to respect anything. They don't respect their parents,
their elders, their teachers, their leaders (we could debate, why this is so), their
pastors, and they don't even respect God.

They accept His salvation, but they don't respect it. They wade through Jesus's blood on the way to the next sin, they don't even see they are in it.

This culture of "I'm entitled to everything" has spilled over into Christianity,
and I've even had a few young people tell me. "God did this for me, because I'm worth
it. I deserved it. It fact, I deserve more than this. So there better be something good
for me in heaven when I get there. In the meantime, I going to keep on doing what I've
been doing, just in case there's nothing good for me when I get there."

Cheap grace wasn't cheap for Jesus.
Cheap grace is how people treat the grace that was given to them.

So, how do you deal with children? Shaming? Once again this is why my question to you. IMO shaming to someone who is knowledgeable can be effective, but the instances you mention are more a reflection of not being discipled/taught God's Word and of cause a lack of discipline/direction in their upbringing at home.

The lack of knowledge truly seems to bring man at times to the point of self-reliance instead of complete surrender.

So how did you answer those young people you make mention of?

Only with the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[B-A-C]

So, how do you deal with children? Shaming? Once again this is why my question to you. IMO shaming to someone who is knowledgeable can be effective, but the instances you mention are more a reflection of not being discipled/taught God's Word and of cause a lack of discipline/direction in their upbringing at home.

The lack of knowledge truly seems to bring man at times to the point of self-reliance instead of complete surrender.

Actually, I think sometimes shaming is appropriate.

Luke 17:3; "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

1 Tim 5:20 Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.

2 Tim 4:2; preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.

Tit 1:13; This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith,

1 Cor 6:5; I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide between his brethren,

2 Thes 3:14; If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame.

If you ask me, there is not enough shame in the world. People aren't sorry for sin anymore. They revel in it.

So how did you answer those young people you make mention of?

I tried to "shame" them. (kidding) But seriously, I did try to get them to remember some of the bad things they've done in their lives,
I asked them if they ever hurt anybody. I asked them if they ever did anything they were sorry for.

I started seeing a pattern in their answers here, because basically it goes around in a circle, yeah they've hurt people "who deserved it"
and "God isn't doing a good enough job of giving those people what they deserve".

So in the end, they didn't see anything wrong with anything they ever did. That was several years ago. They still claim to be Christians even
today, but very little has changed.

1 Tim 4:2; by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,

I think there are MANY in the world today, who have their conscience "seared over" so that they no longer feel guilt or shame for anything.
So there is no need for repentance. (Because they haven't done anything wrong).

Psa 51:17; The sacrifices of God are {b]a broken spirit[/b];
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

Isa 57:15; For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, whose name is Holy,
“I dwell on a high and holy place, And also with the contrite and lowly of spirit
In order to revive the spirit of the lowly And to revive the heart of the contrite.

Isa 66:2; “For My hand made all these things, Thus all these things came into being,” declares the Lord.
“But to this one I will look, To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word.

============= **************** ===========

Luke 18:10; “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
Luke 18:11; The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
Luke 18:12; I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’
Luke 18:13; But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’
Luke 18:14; I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

=========== ***************** ==============

con·trite
kənˈtrīt,ˈkäntrīt/Submit
adjective
feeling or expressing remorse or penitence; affected by guilt.
"a broken and a contrite heart"
synonyms: remorseful, repentant, penitent, regretful, sorry, apologetic, rueful, sheepish, hangdog, ashamed, chastened, shamefaced, conscience-stricken, guilt-ridden
"Joey was so contrite we had to conceal our amusement"

 

[Christ4Ever]

@bac
Dear Brother,

Actually, I think sometimes shaming is appropriate.

I agree.

Do you believe them whom you spoke of to be Christians?

Also, if you had the opportunity to question them again. Would you now ask them different questions and if so, what would they be?

I think there are MANY in the world today, who have their conscience "seared over" so that they no longer feel guilt or shame for anything.
So there is no need for repentance. (Because they haven't done anything wrong).

I agree here as well. They won't repent because they don't believe that He is who He said He is, why He came, and what He desires for us to be. Which is Holy. 1 Peter 1:16 because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."

Even though they profess to be Christian, in many cases they actually need to be Evangelized and truly discipled! For they don't understand/believe Romans 1:25 "For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen." and ends the Chapter with verse 32 "and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them."

This actually is speaking of the very ones you mentioned! Would they recognize themselves in these words? Probably not, but that is why I can't emphasize enough the need to take the young to the Lord under wing. So that than instruction and correction as needed can be done and not wait for a more opportune time. As soon as their head comes out of the water can't be soon enough for many!!

There's a man I know who will ask those who profess to be believers instead of "Good morning, or how are you my Brother/Sister" instead he will ask them "How's your Bible reading coming?". Would this be considered shaming? I guess it could if the person hasn't been in the Word for a while!

Only truth, which is the Word of God can provide the nourishment needed for the life we walk in this world and to be that overcomer scripture speaks of!

With the Love of Jesus Christ.
YBIC
Nick
<><

P.S. - I still wouldn't use the term "Cheap Grace" to describe a sinner's walk. Love you brother!

 

[B-A-C]

I agree here as well. They won't repent because they don't believe that He is who He said He is, why He came, and what He desires for us to be. Which is Holy. 1 Peter 1:16 because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."

Their argument (certainly not mine) is... "I am Holy". I am as saved as I'm ever going to be. I'm as forgiven as I'm ever going to be. What else do I need?
I believe in Jesus, anything else is works.

Also, if you had the opportunity to question them again. Would you now ask them different questions and if so, what would they be?

I was going to ask you the same question. What would you have said in that circumstance? Or to the chiid molester, or drug dealer, or sex slaver.

.S. - I still wouldn't use the term "Cheap Grace" to describe a sinner's walk

It isn't meant in any derogatory way towards Jesus's grace.
There is an old Steve Green song from a few decades ago, called "The Touch of the Master's Hand."

It's about a beat up old violin, that someone is trying to sell, and he can't even get a few dollars for it.
Then an old man comes an picks it up and starts playing it. People start gathering around and are amazed by the music.
They can't believe how beautiful it is. The old man puts the violin down, and there is almost a bidding war for that same
violin now. Hundreds of dollars are bid against several people. The song ends before we find out how the violin actually sells for.

This is of course about us. We are beat up and sometimes people don't see much value in us.
But that's before the Master's touch.
Then suddenly people start seeing value in us.

It's much the same with Jesus's grace. It's the same grace for you and me, as it is for everyone else.
But we see the value in it. We see the cost put into it. All the money we have couldn't afford it.
But other people see the same grace,... it's just a "do whatever you want, whenever you want"
and get out of jail free card. It doesn't really have much value to them. Jesus's grace is a dime a dozen,
there's more where that came from, so live it up. Party it up. It doesn't cost you anything.

It's cheap.

You use the term "sinner's walk". Almost as if it's journey. ( I do agree )
But is there a difference between a "repentant sinner" and a "non-repentant sinner"?
..and if repentance is required, does that mean grace alone doesn't save us?

Even though they profess to be Christian, in many cases they actually need to be Evangelized and truly discipled!

I can't emphasize enough the need to take the young to the Lord under wing. So that than instruction and correction as needed can be done

I have to ask, do you see any difference between these two statements, and the statement below?

I understand the correlation between an active faith versus an inactive one. Yet both fall under the same Saving Grace.

Can you disciple others, or even be discipled by others if you are "inactive"?

 

[Christ4Ever]

I was going to ask you the same question. What would you have said in that circumstance? Or to the chiid molester, or drug dealer, or sex slaver.

The level of the sin changes nothing. Being moved by the Holy Spirit. I've talked to a few that some would call the deviants of society. The same sinners our Lord came for. I give them rides when I see them walking along the road or seem to be waiting for a ride and engage them in conversation as I take them to their destination. I think they figure they're safe with me because my state only requires a back license plate so my front one says "Glory to God". I don't think they realize that I bring the Holy Spirit and the Word of God with me!

Besides finding out where they're heading. I'll introduce myself and let them know that I'm a Christian. I don't say believer, because you'd be surprised how many people don't understand what that means or my meaning as "Follower of Jesus Christ because He's my Savior".

I'll ask them if they go to church. Some say yes and some say no. Depending on the answer it will move the conversation in one direction or another. Normally the rides are not long ones so I try to keep it short with the enquires and more with digging on where they are in their walk if they profess to be a believer or if they are not how they are doing personally. Ask if they have a Bible and if they don't I give them one. I always try to keep a spare one in the car as a gift. In the past not being prepared would have me giving away my older ones that had my notes and highlighted verses in! I'd have to go out and buy another and start all over again! Happens sometimes when my wife is in the car. Actually, she's the one who suggested I get some other ones to give away! It helps because I've included in them something I've put together that will list scripture verses on "Salvation". Some from Romans and other parts of Scripture. This is what I've added to the end of the page.

Grace: good will, loving-kindness, favor: of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues

Faith: the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ

I pray that you might find this not as a chance occurrence but one of design. That God has chosen you to call at this very moment one of His Children through Christ Jesus. In his Holy Name I pray that. Amen.

I try to always remember that circumstances and environment more times than not will dictate how quickly or slowly one can go. Sometimes it's no more than a quick "Remember Jesus Christ died for you, me and the world."

Having more time is always a greater joy and sometimes a sadness as I'm sure you've experienced as well. I try not to get angry, because....but for the Grace of God there go I. If I get angry at all, it's normally from talking with the "learned" ones. Then it's doctrine in most cases and also in most cases it will be a hug and smile and away we go! Not always, but I'm still growing!!!!

So, with the ones you mentioned. Well, it's really about finding out whether they really understand their own "Salvation", how much they know about "Jesus", do they "read the Bible", do terms like we've been talking about mean anything to them and what does it mean to them as they see it against what Scripture might say. It's hard to do the listening without interrupting. Especially when you hear something as off the wall as you mentioned. I just keep in mind that not every comment they make requires a response from me. Also, it helps them when they are able to verbalize their thoughts. Nothing like saying it out loud to know what you really think! We should also be trying to get a bigger picture of them as people, as a Brother or Sister in Christ Jesus, or one awaiting to truly hear about God's Saving Grace! Need to know the needs or identify where they might be lacking in knowledge before continuing on with helping them grow or begin their walk with/in the Lord.

You use the term "sinner's walk". Almost as if it's journey. ( I do agree )
But is there a difference between a "repentant sinner" and a "non-repentant sinner"?
..and if repentance is required, does that mean grace alone doesn't save us?

Sinners walk indeed! Straight to the gallows so to speak. It's a death march. Spurgeon said it right when he said that we should be throwing ourselves at their feet so that they have to jump over our prostate bodies to get into Hell. Very hard to do sometimes.

You're not trying to get me into the continuous debate that rears its head on TJ periodically by asking the "repentant sinner" against the "unrepentant sinner" are you? I will assume you are not!

My definition of Grace that I use above should give you an idea of how I see God's Grace. Grace is active not inactive. It does not leave us unchanged. So I bring the question back to you. Which "sinner" when it all is said and done has changed, which has not? Have they breathed their last?

Can you disciple others, or even be discipled by others if you are "inactive"?

Yes. What effect it will have if it's separate from the Holy Spirit is another question. We talk of planting a "seed" when it comes to Evangelizing. Seeds can remain dormant for a time. Yet, with tender care it can become fruitful. The opposite "unfruitful" we won't know until we tender it as well with the same Love our Lord has showered upon us. The hope that springs eternal in our hearts, is the hope that we desire all to have through Christ Jesus. At least until they breath their last. Then as scripture says "Judgment".

As always brother. A Great Joy communicating with you!
With the Love of Christ Jesus from one Brother to another.
Nick
<><

 

[B-A-C]

You lost me at several turns in that last post.

We need some common ground here to start with. (we can disagree later )
Let's start with the word disciple. This is from dictionary.com. The word disciple is both a noun and a verb.
If I say.. "Paul was a disciple" That's a noun.
If I say "I'm going to disciple Bob". That's a verb. An action word. You can't do non-active action. It's a contradiction of the language.

noun
1.
Religion.

one of the 12 personal followers of Christ.
one of the 70 followers sent forth by Christ. Luke 10:1.
any other professed follower of Christ in His lifetime.

2.
any follower of Christ.
3.
(initial capital letter) a member of the Disciples of Christ.
4.
a person who is a pupil or an adherent of the doctrines of another; follower:
a disciple of Freud.

verb (used with object), discipled, discipling.
5.
Archaic. to convert into a disciple.
6.
Obsolete. to teach; train.

So that's problem number one. There's no such thing as inactive discipling. You can't have an inactive action.

=====================================================================================================

The level of the sin changes nothing. Being moved by the Holy Spirit. I've talked to a few that some would call the deviants of societ

I sort of agree with this, all sin is sin. Yet the new testament mentions those who "practice" sin. This is different from those who just sin.
This term is used 33 times in the new Testament alone.

noun
1.
habitual or customary performance; operation:
office practice.
2.
habit; custom:
It is not the practice here for men to wear long hair.
3.
repeated performance or systematic exercise for the purpose of acquiring skill or proficiency:
Practice makes perfect.
4.
condition arrived at by experience or exercise:
She refused to play the piano, because she was out of practice.
5.
the action or process of performing or doing something:
to put a scheme into practice; the shameful practices of a blackmailer.
6.
the exercise or pursuit of a profession or occupation, especially law or medicine:
She plans to set up practice in her hometown.
7.
the business of a professional person:

A habit, a custom, a repeated exercise, a repetitive action.

The Bible separates those who "practice" sin. From those who make mistakes sometimes.

Matt 7:23; "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Rom 1:32; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

Rom 2:2; And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
Rom 2:3; But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

Gal 5:20; idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
Gal 5:21; envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Jn 3:4; Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
1 Jn 3:8; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
1 Jn 3:9; No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 Jn 3:10; By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

We all sin, yes. But we don't all practice sin.

====================================================================

This is what I've added to the end of the page.

Grace: good will, loving-kindness, favor: of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues

I think this is a part of the problem, people add and take away things that aren't in the Bible. They come up with their own defintions.

The definition of grace in the context of Jesus is...

favor or goodwill.
Synonyms: kindness, kindliness, love, benignity; condescension.
4.
a manifestation of favor, especially by a superior:
It was only through the dean's grace that I wasn't expelled from school.
Synonyms: forgiveness, charity, mercifulness.
Antonyms: animosity, enmity, disfavor.
5.
mercy; clemency; pardon:
He was saved by an act of grace from the governor.
Synonyms: lenity, leniency, reprieve.
Antonyms: harshness.

An undeserved, unmerited favor, cancellation of debt.

====================================================================

So, with the ones you mentioned. Well, it's really about finding out whether they really understand their own "Salvation", how much they know about "Jesus", do they "read the Bible", do terms like we've been talking about mean anything to them and what does it mean to them as they see it against what Scripture might say.

I assure you they read the Bible quite frequently and know the scriptures very well.

Remember Jesus Christ died for you, me and the world."

And yet, the whole "world" will not be saved, in fact the majority won't be. Not even everyone who "believes" in Jesus will be saved.

=================================================================================================

This actually is speaking of the very ones you mentioned! Would they recognize themselves in these words? Probably not, but that is why I can't emphasize enough the need to take the young to the Lord under wing. So that than instruction and correction as needed can be done and not wait for a more opportune time. As soon as their head comes out of the water can't be soon enough for many!!

You lost me again here. What is the purpose of the instruction and teaching here? (again, I would say those are "action" verbs).
And what exactly would you teach them, that they don't already know?

They believe Jesus is God, the Son of God. He died for our sins, He paid the price for our sins on the cross. He died in our place.
They can quote the 10 commandments to you, but they would also tell you we are no longer under the law.

You're not trying to get me into the continuous debate that rears its head on TJ periodically by asking the "repentant sinner" against the "unrepentant sinner" are you? I will assume you are not!

I was about to ask you the same thing
But in my opinion, there is no such thing as an unrepentant Christian. (yes, I know you said "sinner")

 

[Christ4Ever]

@bac
I think the problem is that you are taking this as if I am directing my writing as if you are the subject in question. Let's see....humm...this is the scenario I'm picturing....tell me where I've gone wrong with the understanding that this conveys some of the areas of both the noun and the verb of Disciple/ship. Notice that I will move from the first to the third person in my writings. Maybe, too often. Apologies. However, I want you to know it is not you that I'm looking to in doubt, or to question as it pertains to your position of faith or knowledge of the word of God. Rather, I'm looking to your knowledge of this situation, and how best one/we could go about finding out why these "Professing Christians" would not act in Scripture like fashion.

Start:

We're standing side by side looking at those you have communicated with. Let's call them John and Jane. We are talking with each other and how best to communicate to these two who are sitting at a table. You mention to me that you've attempted to talk with John and Jane before, but received back only "ignorance" of how a Christian should behave/comport themselves to the rest of the world. (In other words. Be the salt unto the world.) ​

I now communicate that a possible way might be talking with them to first find out whatever we can about them personally and where they stand in their walk with God. That is if they are believers. So, I ask you if they are believers and you tell me that they profess to be. At least they call themselves Christians (Even though their actions are speaking otherwise). I tell you how about we make sure they are believers by asking a few questions before assuming they are.
​

End.

I've written the above because as far as I could tell. Your words appeared to me as saying "leave them to their own devices" since your your questioning of them was unproductive as seen by the lack of change in their lives.

While mine was to see if maybe through gauging the situation and the individuals a little differently through a Spirit Guided line of questioning we might find where they have gone wrong. With the hope of getting them back on track in their walk with the Lord Jesus. Assuming they even have started doing so.

---------------------------------------------------

There are other parts of your post #14 I would like to address, but ultimately this has to be cleared first before any progress in understanding each other can continue. For if you do not understand what I've written here. You will only see any future postings also as attacks. Meaning, if our communication cannot be productive to each other's growth in Him, His Word as well as having His Love for each other be seen in word and deed. Than of what value is it?

With the Love of Christ Jesus dear brother.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Curtis]

Jesus spoke something very profound when he was referring to the Kingdom of God.....
Jesus said......

Mat 11:12 From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force.

From the time John the Baptist began to proclaim the Kingdom of God, and the consequences of not receiving it through repentance, people flocked to be baptized by John in an attempt to escape God's wrath (hell's fire).(Matt 3:7-10)

These people including the Pharisees and Sadducees came out of "violence" to be baptized by John. A violent person is someone who does not think through the consequences of their actions before acting. They did NOT consider the cost of such actions. Lucifer fell into this same category, as it filled him with violence. (Eze 28:16)

Coming to Christ out of fear of going to hell is not the right reason, to repent and be baptized. The right reason is because we know we are sinners, and have need of a savior. What does it cost to be saved and be a follower of Jesus? Everything. It cost our very life!!! Violent people do not consider this nor have they thought it through. They consider God's grace "cheap", and not worth giving up ones life to have eternal life, so they do it just in case the Gospel is true.

 

[B-A-C]

Something that is cheap... is something that has no value to you. (Even if it has value to someone else)

Jude 1:3; Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
Jud 1:4; For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Jud 1:5; Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

This is cheap grace. Thinking that God's grace covers everything and you have a free license to sin and do whatever you want. Yes Jesus died to cover our sins, but He didn't
die just so we could continue to sin.

Rom 6:1; What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
Rom 6:2; May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

Rom 6:15; What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

Heb 12:15; See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;

Cheap grace.. is grace that has no or little value to someone. Someone who takes it for granted.

 

[Lanolin]

Hmm may I weigh in with my thoughts..on the topic.

Cheap grace makes me think of the pearl of great price (i.e salvation) and how Jesus said we shouldnt cast our pearls before swine. Because what does a pig do with a pearl? It doesnt know how much its worth and just sees it as something to be trodden on or sniffed at.

Whereas for us believers the pearl is the most precious treasure of all.

I havent read the book mentioned sorry, but one day I will get round to it. It does sound like something I ought to read because I am dealing with a long time friend who is in that same position...apparently unaware of just how much it cost Jesus to save us...and to me she's just taking that for granted. She doesnt fellowship and ignores all invitations and and just wants to do what she wants to please herself and its very sad to see...she will miss out on the blessing if she continues down this road.

Have now got hold of this book and looking forward to reading it.

The cost of discipleship by Dietrich Bonhoeffer

 

[Hekuran]

Great choice of book. It's a very profound and powerful work. I made a mistake when I first picked it up a couple of years ago and read it quite quickly. Much better to go slow and carefully, make sure it sinks in.

Would love to hear how you get on with it

 

[Lanolin]

First chapter so far..

Thoughts..Bonhoeffer was reacting against the Lutheran church?
Although he hasn't mentioned it yet.. I was thinking he could just title his writing..or treatise 'Faith without works is dead.'

Sad about what happened in Germany. So did not Lutherans realise they were saved to do good works that our Heavenly Father has prepared for us to do? Did they just parrot the slogan 'faith alone'?

 

[Hekuran]

First chapter so far..

Thoughts..Bonhoeffer was reacting against the Lutheran church?
Although he hasn't mentioned it yet.. I was thinking he could just title his writing..or treatise 'Faith without works is dead.'

Sad about what happened in Germany. So did not Lutherans realise they were saved to do good works that our Heavenly Father has prepared for us to do? Did they just parrot the slogan 'faith alone'?

Yes faith without works is dead would be a fair summary.

Bonhoeffer was a prominent Lutheran pastor - which makes his critique all the more powerful. The Lutheran church was co-opted by the national socialists and was largely impotent to counter the rise of Hitler's ideologies.

He and like minded pastors formed the confessing church.

A good biography is 'prophet, pastor, spy' if you are interested.

 

[Lanolin]

There arent many Lutheran churches in nz. Lots of other churches but no lutherans in my area..
Although when I come across german people, which is few and far between, they tend to be into rudolf steiner philosophies.

Have finished reading this book.

Lots of deep thoughts the main thing I got was sharing in the sufferings of Christ..is something that the saints go through. And that is testing our faith.

Yes faith without works is dead would be a fair summary.

Bonhoeffer was a prominent Lutheran pastor - which makes his critique all the more powerful. The Lutheran church was co-opted by the national socialists and was largely impotent to counter the rise of Hitler's ideologies.

He and like minded pastors formed the confessing church.

A good biography is 'prophet, pastor, spy' if you are interested.

Thanks for the recommendation will be interested to read this book.

Have now started reading this bio Bonhoeffer pastor, prophet, martyr, spy.

I didnt know hardly anything about him so be interesting, it says he was in the plot to assassinate Hitler? But he got found out and was sentenced to death in a concentration camp.

Which is kind of weird because I thought christians were meant to pray for their enemies, not plot to assassinate them..? Maybe he was falsely accused???

Still reading it. Finding it real sad and shocking what happened to the german christians under Hitler.

Isnt it interesting that the German Shepherd looks just like a wolf? Its a dog!

This book is long...its about 500 something pages! 3/4 way there....

Finally finished this bio!

It was long..and also creepy what Hitler did. But...Im still not really clear why they tried to blow him up with a bomb. I mean if you were to assasinate someone, perish the thought, why use a bomb. Couldnt you just knock him out with a stone? Bombs blow up everyone and everything else as well. Not sure what the justification to conspire against Hitler when God has said vengeance is mine I will repay.

Good bio but My thoughts are it wasnt fair on Bonhoeffers fiance... but I guess I wasnt there at the time. The lies people had to put up with are unbelievable.

I found disturbing in this book that the bomb that tried to blow up Hitler ended up killing someone else who was innocent.

Of course Hitler indirectly killed a lot of people and then killed himself. But several things about Bonhoeffer arent clear either for example why did he want to visit Gandhi and learn from a hindu?
Bonhoeffer was into ecumenism as well. He wasnt evangelical and didnt exactly preach the gospel he trained people who were 'confirmed' into his church.
The other thing is he liked to smoke, was more into theological debate than anything, learned from Karl Barth and other philosophers, and he put his fiance through the emotional wringer it seems.

Many people might say Lord Lord didnt we cast out demons in your name? So...not quite sure that Bonhoeffer was the martyr and prophet eric metataxes claims. He did think that to deceive was acceptable but one thing was arent we to pray for our enemies and bless those who persecute you? Not conspire to assassinate them? That is one thing this biography kind of glosses over.

The cost of discipleship really was Jesus life, which make us free because salvation is a gift given to us we dont have to earn it, yet we then walk in the spirit. I think there are several things about Bonhoeffer that dont add up in that biography. If we submit to God, resist the devil, he will flee I dont think its wise to go after devils and think killing someone is going to be the answer, the biography was very short on what happened after bonhoeffer was sentenced and killed and whether his actions made any difference when Hitler killed himself anyway. I mean I dont know if it means we take vengeance and go acting like terrorists and try to blow up leaders like guy fawkes. Even if they are evil I mean Daniel and his friends did not go around trying to kill King Nebuchadnezzar and David did not kill King Saul even though was mad and crazy....

Jesus also didnt go round conspiring to get rid of King Herod by calling fire down from heaven even though King Herod killed his cousin John. I mean Jesus didnt pretend to conform to the kingdoms of this world. I dont know thats troubling because Bonhoeffer actually was guilty of trying to blow up hitler I mean he wasnt innocent like Jesus was. Jesus says he was establishing a spiritual kingdom not an earthly one and he didnt try to subvert the caesar by assasination...or join in with the Pharisees and then overthrow them by a coup.

I dont know, what do others think.

 

[amadeus2]

Jesus also didnt go round conspiring to get rid of King Herod by calling fire down from heaven even though King Herod killed his cousin John. I mean Jesus didnt pretend to conform to the kingdoms of this world. I dont know thats troubling because Bonhoeffer actually was guilty of trying to blow up hitler I mean he wasnt innocent like Jesus was. Jesus says he was establishing a spiritual kingdom not an earthly one and he didnt try to subvert the caesar by assasination...or join in with the Pharisees and then overthrow them by a coup.

I dont know, what do others think.

There are probably many who agree with your thinking on this. Unfortunately some who do agree may be unwilling to do anything that would sacrifice of their own comfort to support a change for the good.

 

[Lanolin]

I dont know that he sacrified his comfort as he was intending to marry his fiance rather than call off the engagement and just left her emotionally hanging....and I know obedience (to God) is actually better than sacrifice.

I can see how he might have thought it was justified but then muslims do the same thing, they think to take others lives and then their own via terrorist attacks and bombs is doing God a service.

Its troubling whatever way you look at it because there were many christians who at the time made a difference eg corrie ten boom and her sister and did not take the deceit and conspiracy route that Bonhoeffer took.

The bio claimed that Bonhoeffer pretended to be an innocent pastor but he was all the time trying to subvert the nazi govt and joined one of the military groups. Not the gestapo but the other one. I think it does my head in a bit and the bio was a bit waffly on what really happened I think it tried to make out that Bonhoeffer was genuinely selfless but some things just dont add up in his narrative of events.

I mean the bio was confusing I dont mean to say Bonhoeffer was right or wrong but at first without knowing everything I would have thought Bonhoeffer was not part of any conspiracy plot to kill Hitler because christians do not murder or have anger in their heart and leave vengeance to God.

Some accounts maintain that Bonhoeffer was rescuing jews from the nazis since some married into his family and that was what he was arrested for that.

So am not sure that the bio is entirely accurate...according to the bio he was part of 'operation valkyrie' that failed as the bomb went off and killed someone else but weeks later Hitler took his own life. But there was not a lot of detail about those events that led to that in this book.