Christian Pacifism

[Quantrill]

Where do we Christians get the idea of being pacifists? As though we are never to lift a hand in violence, though a situation may call for it? Where do we get the idea that the spiritual warfare exempts the body? As though you are only involved in spiritual warfare when you are in a state of prayer and reflection?

That the warfare is spiritual, of course. That is it's origin. When two men grab a woman to kidnap and molest, that is also part of the spiritual warfare. Behind these men's motives is satan encouraging and pushing them. Their bodies have become part of that war. Just as the body of that woman has become part of that war. Which means men, and especially Christian men, should rush in to help. And the Christian at that time, using force, also become part of that spiritual warfare.

God did not establish the U.S. with pacifist Christians. Their Christianity was constant faith, fighting, and dying. Thus America became an island of refuge for Protestants and Jews in the world.

So, where do we get the idea, that once the nation is established by such means, that now all I need to do is just pray about it and rejoice in my Christianity? As though God will take care of it and He doesn't need me to lift a hand in violence to defend or maintain it?

The divide in our country is not just political, it is spiritual. When the Christian Right marches they can expect attacks from the atheistic left. Antifa. They should always know that it is coming and expect it and have men ready to physically defend themselves and others with them. But, many will say that is not Christian. We need to show the love of Christ not violence.

Which brings me back to first scenario of the woman being attacked. Are you showing the love of Christ if you don't do violence to the men attacking her? Sounds silly don't it?

Quantrill

 

[Hekuran]

The idea of Christian pacifism comes from the example of Jesus Christ - who defeated the powers of evil violence and death by offering his own life as a sacrifice.

 

[Quantrill]

The idea of Christian pacifism comes from the example of Jesus Christ - who defeated the powers of evil violence and death by offering his own life as a sacrifice.

If that is where you get the idea, then address the rest of my comments.

Quantrill

 

[Hekuran]

I'm content to let what I've said so far stand.

 

[Quantrill]

I'm content to let what I've said so far stand.

Ok. That means you can't say much. No problem. Now, don't say anything more. So I ask others, according to what Hekuran said, how does that address the rest of my comments?

Quantrill

 

[Brad Huber]

The idea of Christian pacifism comes from the example of Jesus Christ - who defeated the powers of evil violence and death by offering his own life as a sacrifice.

Mostly, but he was really good with a whip.

 

[B-A-C]

Jesus the pacifist?

Rev 19:15; From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
Rev 19:16; And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

Rev 19:20; And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
Rev 19:21; And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Rev 2:16; 'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.

John 2:15; And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables;

Rev 2:21; 'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.
Rev 2:22; 'Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.
Rev 2:23; 'And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.

Rev 3:16; 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.

2 Cor 5:10; For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

 

[Tristan W]

Greetings Quantrill,

Here is my humble attempt in helping you. Maybe this can be answered as such: What Authorities/Responsibilities has God Given Me in my Titles of Husband, Father, Son, a member of the Body of Christ, Head of Household, Engineer?

son of God
When I was baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and received the Holy Ghost was not I given the authority to become a son of God? John 1:12 (thank you Bendito [What is this power] thread)

Husband
As Pepper's husband am I not given the responsibility of being the head of my wife and therefore should lay my life down for her? Ephesians 5:22-25

Father
As a Dad, am I not tasked with chastening and teaching my children in the ways of the Lord, but not to the point of bringing them discouragement? Proverbs 22:6 and Ephesians 6:4

Son
As a son, am I not responsible for taking care of my parents when they are old and as a child not to disrespect them or put shame on them? Also not to curse them? Exodus 20:12

Body of Christ
As a member of God's church am I not responsible to devote my time and efforts building other members up, using my God-given gifts and abilities to help them in ways God calls me to? Romans 14:19 and Hebrews 10:25

Head of Household
As the head of the household am I not to provide for it and keep the faith? 1 Timothy 5:8

Engineer
I am not to keep in mind that as a believer I am not to be friends of the world, but only as necessary as to carry out those functions? 2 Cor 6:14

All authority is established by God. Romans 13:1.

Thank you.

 

[Rad]

Where do we Christians get the idea of being pacifists? As though we are never to lift a hand in violence, though a situation may call for it? Where do we get the idea that the spiritual warfare exempts the body? As though you are only involved in spiritual warfare when you are in a state of prayer and reflection?

That the warfare is spiritual, of course. That is it's origin. When two men grab a woman to kidnap and molest, that is also part of the spiritual warfare. Behind these men's motives is satan encouraging and pushing them. Their bodies have become part of that war. Just as the body of that woman has become part of that war. Which means men, and especially Christian men, should rush in to help. And the Christian at that time, using force, also become part of that spiritual warfare.

God did not establish the U.S. with pacifist Christians. Their Christianity was constant faith, fighting, and dying. Thus America became an island of refuge for Protestants and Jews in the world.

So, where do we get the idea, that once the nation is established by such means, that now all I need to do is just pray about it and rejoice in my Christianity? As though God will take care of it and He doesn't need me to lift a hand in violence to defend or maintain it?

The divide in our country is not just political, it is spiritual. When the Christian Right marches they can expect attacks from the atheistic left. Antifa. They should always know that it is coming and expect it and have men ready to physically defend themselves and others with them. But, many will say that is not Christian. We need to show the love of Christ not violence.

Which brings me back to first scenario of the woman being attacked. Are you showing the love of Christ if you don't do violence to the men attacking her? Sounds silly don't it?

Quantrill

 

[Rad]

As you can see, still haven't got used to this posting system but anyway,...... seems to me that Christs teachings were pretty clear, Matthew 5 vs 38-48, " Do not resist Evil, ... turn the other cheek, ... Love your enemies", sounds pretty much like Pacifism to me, but as usual theres a gulf of difference between what we should do as Christians and what we do as Sinful Men and Women, for when faced with the situation you describe our reaction is to hit back, to use Righteous violence to achieve what we see as a Just cause,...... perhaps it comes down to the old saying of " the ends justify the means", for when we believe that right is on our side theres no limit to the evil we unleash, the dropping of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki are perhaps the most extreme example,...... so yeh its hard, very hard to let Evil hold sway, but it seems to me that as Christians , thats what we're called to do,........ but where do you get the idea that God established the US as a Christian Nation, a Christian Nation founded on Theft, Genocide, Oppression , Exploitation and a nation thats been the prime mover in bringing Gods world to the brink of destruction, where is the Christianity in that, ....... as for a Political and Spiritual divide, well that may be so, but its not the Left/Right split as you describe, its a divide on the basis of those who align their political views as close as they can to the teachings of Christ, and looking at the Right in America at the moment, whether it be the violence at the Border, the brutal detention of refugees in Concentration Camps where they're subjected to harsh conditions and Sexual and Physical abuse , the racism and hate that often manifests in violence to their opponents, the war mongering in the Middle East or the defending of lax gun laws that not only allows weapons to flow from the US into the Violent Cauldron of Central America but also costs the lives of thousands of US citizens every year, theres little that could be called Christian about them.

 

[Quantrill]

@Rad

You say the U.S. is founded on 'theft, genocide, and oppression.' And, how was Israel founded?

Quantrill

 

[Rad]

@Rad

You say the U.S. is founded on 'theft, genocide, and oppression.' And, how was Israel founded?

Quantrill

Israel was also founded on "Theft, Genocide and Oppression", but that was under Gods command and also under OT Laws and Morality,...... are you trying to justify the founding of the US on these same principles, for i thought as Christians we acted under Christs commandments in the NT, ....... its not that i'm singling out the US as any different from any other nation in the World , for they were all founded on Violence, greed and theft, .... the problem occurs when you try to attribute Gods blessing on any particular nation, for when Christ was being tempted by the Devil in Luke 4 vs 5-8 "5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 If you worship me, it will all be yours.” 8 Jesus answered,“It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’”......ALL the Kingdoms of this World are the province of the Devil, and looking around at the Chaos and destruction they inflict on the World, its easy to see how true this is.

 

[Quantrill]

Israel was also founded on "Theft, Genocide and Oppression", but that was under Gods command and also under OT Laws and Morality,...... are you trying to justify the founding of the US on these same principles, for i thought as Christians we acted under Christs commandments in the NT, ....... its not that i'm singling out the US as any different from any other nation in the World , for they were all founded on Violence, greed and theft, .... the problem occurs when you try to attribute Gods blessing on any particular nation, for when Christ was being tempted by the Devil in Luke 4 vs 5-8 "5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 If you worship me, it will all be yours.” 8 Jesus answered,“It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’”......ALL the Kingdoms of this World are the province of the Devil, and looking around at the Chaos and destruction they inflict on the World, its easy to see how true this is.

So, you're saying God is a thief, murderer, and oppressor? Strange, and blasphemous.

Are you saying the God of the Old Testament is not the God of the New? Did Christ contradict what was written in the Old Testament?

The example you give of the temptation of Christ doesn't work. The kingdoms were satan's to give if he can get the people of the kingdoms to worship him. Refusal to do so by a people and to instead worship God, removes that kingdom from satan's authority. It doesn't stop the warfare. But that kingdom ceases to be his ally.

The U.S. was founded upon the faith in the true God of the Bible. Just as Israel was. The land was filled with pagans, just like Israel was. Thus war was necessary to provide a safe political climate for the Protestant Christians to live. Just like Israel did.

Quantrill

 

[Rad]

So, you're saying God is a thief, murderer, and oppressor? Strange, and blasphemous.

Are you saying the God of the Old Testament is not the God of the New? Did Christ contradict what was written in the Old Testament?

The example you give of the temptation of Christ doesn't work. The kingdoms were satan's to give if he can get the people of the kingdoms to worship him. Refusal to do so by a people and to instead worship God, removes that kingdom from satan's authority. It doesn't stop the warfare. But that kingdom ceases to be his ally.

The U.S. was founded upon the faith in the true God of the Bible. Just as Israel was. The land was filled with pagans, just like Israel was. Thus war was necessary to provide a safe political climate for the Protestant Christians to live. Just like Israel did.

Quantrill

No i'm saying that as a mere human my definition of the actions of the founding of Israel were ,Genocide, Oppression and theft, how could they be defined as any different, Gods motivation in ordering these actions are as always righteous, i readily admit to not understanding the actions of God on many occasions, but thats because i'm a sinful human, and he is God, how is that "strange or blasphemous?, for myself, its just the truth,...... no i'm not saying the God of the OT is not also the God of the New, but Christ did give his followers new Commandments, in Matthew 5 vs 27-48, principally for this discussion vs 38-39, and 43-44, "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" is replaced by " do not resist evil" and "turn the other cheek", and "Love your neighbour and hate your enemy" is replaced by "Love your enemy, do good to those that hate you and bless those that curse and persecute you", ....... you seem to be twisting the verses to suit your interpretation, its quite clear, the Devil offered Christ ALL the Kingdoms of this World because they were his to do with as he chooses, not some, ALL, or perhaps you have a quote from scripture to substantiate your claim,....... no if you check your history you will see that the US was founded on Theft, Oppression and Genocide, and like ALL other nations belongs to the Devil, there is nothing remotely Christian about theft and mass murder, and would a "Christian Nation " support the Saudis in their destruction of Yemen that has cost over 225,000 lives, around 85,000 of them children, to name just one example of the Devils control,...... it seems to me that you have to decide whether you're going to try to build your Faith on the shifting sands of Nationalism and the Nation state or the firm Rock of Christs Commandments of Love and Compassion.

 

[Quantrill]

No i'm saying that as a mere human my definition of the actions of the founding of Israel were ,Genocide, Oppression and theft, how could they be defined as any different, Gods motivation in ordering these actions are as always righteous, i readily admit to not understanding the actions of God on many occasions, but thats because i'm a sinful human, and he is God, how is that "strange or blasphemous?, for myself, its just the truth,...... no i'm not saying the God of the OT is not also the God of the New, but Christ did give his followers new Commandments, in Matthew 5 vs 27-48, principally for this discussion vs 38-39, and 43-44, "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" is replaced by " do not resist evil" and "turn the other cheek", and "Love your neighbour and hate your enemy" is replaced by "Love your enemy, do good to those that hate you and bless those that curse and persecute you", ....... you seem to be twisting the verses to suit your interpretation, its quite clear, the Devil offered Christ ALL the Kingdoms of this World because they were his to do with as he chooses, not some, ALL, or perhaps you have a quote from scripture to substantiate your claim,....... no if you check your history you will see that the US was founded on Theft, Oppression and Genocide, and like ALL other nations belongs to the Devil, there is nothing remotely Christian about theft and mass murder, and would a "Christian Nation " support the Saudis in their destruction of Yemen that has cost over 225,000 lives, around 85,000 of them children, to name just one example of the Devils control,...... it seems to me that you have to decide whether you're going to try to build your Faith on the shifting sands of Nationalism and the Nation state or the firm Rock of Christs Commandments of Love and Compassion.

Well, I have no problem with God destroying the Canaanites and giving the land to Israel. Just like I have no problem with God destroying the American Indians and giving the land to the Protestant white Christians. The U.S. was founded on the same principles as Israel was. Israel, on the God who delivered them from Egypt. The U.S upon the same God which involved a God fearing, and Christ believing people.

You are like all other bleeding hearts. You want the Christians of America to love everyone, trust Jesus, and then, let the minority and atheistic races have their way. Oh yes. Love Jesus while they destroy your country and home and you sit idly by and watch. And don't do anything to stop it because that means you don't love Jesus.

Christians have become so gullible.

Stranger