Christian Zionism and Daniel 9: 24-27

[tulsa 2011]

Christian Zionism and Jeremiah 18: 1-6, Daniel 9:24-27. Matthew 23: 38, & Matthew 21:33-46

Jeremiah 18: 1-6, Daniel 9:24-27. Matthew 23: 38, Matthew 21:33-46 may not be familiar as scriptures which do not agree with Christian Zionism's teachings that Old Covenant Israel remains a people of God, alongside the Church.

Jeremiah 18: 1-6 is the parable of the potter which makes more explicit what II Kings 21: 13 and Isaiah 29: 16 hint at. In the parable of Jeremiah 18 God is seen as a potter who makes one pot on his potter's wheel, but "was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it." Jeremiah 18: 6 then says "O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel."

Then, Matthew 21:33-46 is about the parable of the husbandmen of God’s vineyard who kill God’s son so they can take over the vineyard. In Matthew 21: 43 Christ says “Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” Nation, from ethnos, can be translated as a people.

In Matthew 23: 37-38 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.”

Old Covenant Israel as God’s vineyard was given to another people who would bring forth fruits, and the house of Old Covenant Israel is left unto them desolate.

God was to change Israel. Jeremiah 18 does not say how he changed Israel. That revelation comes in part with John the Baptist, who is a transition figure, sort of a man of the Old Covenant, but yet much of what John said was revelation about the New Covenant in Jesus Christ.

Daniel 9: 24-27 is an important, but very difficult prophecy,that Christian Zionists have tried to make conform to their doctrines.

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

In Daniel 9: 27 Messiah will confirm the covenant with many, and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate..." Daniel 9: 27 was confirmed in Hebrews 7: 26-28 "For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore."

When Jesus died on the Cross, the curtain of the temple was torn in twain from the top to the bottom, and the earth did quake and the rocks rent. Matthew 27: 51

And in Matthew 27: 52-53 many of the saints came out of their graves after his resurrection. The tearing of the curtain of the temple building was an act of God which showed that Old Covenant Israel's sacrificial system, the temple worship, circumcision and other shadows had come to a complete end. As Hebrews 10: 9 says "He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second."

But Christian Zionism interprets Daniel 9: 24-27 to make it agree with its doctrine that Old Covenant Israel was not completely ended. Since Christian Zionism uses a "consistent" literal
method of interpretation which insists on making a distinction between God's plan for Old Covenant Israel and the Church. it claims the restoration of Old Covenant Israel must happen in a future week. During this period Christian Zionism inserts its prophecy that there is to be a resumption of God's plan for Old Covenant Israel - of course, after the Christian Zionist Church is raptured off the earth. This interpretation requires a postponement,"gap" or "parenthesis" between verses 26 and 27.

The Christian Zionists develop their doctrine of the seven year tribulation from Daniel 9: 24-27. In their prophecy the one man Anti-Christ signs a peace treaty with the nation of Israel at about the time of the start of their tribulation period.

And Christian Zionists teach that the "he" in Daniel 9: 27 who confirms the covenant with many for one week refers back to the prince of verse 26 who shall come and destroy the city and the sanctuary, who is Titus and the Roman Army. They make the covenant into a treaty.
Covenant in Daniel 9: 27 is from the Hebrew word beriyth, which Strong's Exhaustive Concordance says means "a compact, confederacy, covenant, league.”

So, for the Christian Zionists it is not Jesus Christ who confirms the covenant with many in Daniel 9: 27, but the prince, who somehow becomes their one man Anti-Christ,who makes a treaty with the nation of Israel. Instead of Jesus Christ bringing the sacrifice and oblation to cease, it is the Anti-Christ who does so. This interpretation avoids the understanding that Christ himself did away with the sacrifice system and all the shadows altogether at the Cross. Not only did Christ not do away with the Old Covenant in Christian Zionism, but Christ is confused with the Anti-Christ, not something you want to do.

Daniel 9: 27 saying that Christ confirmed the covenant with many is a significant part of the New Covenant. The Christian Zionists not only have tried to compromise this absolute truth, but have done worse than that. They have tried to change the statement in Daniel 9: 27 saying that Christ did away with the sacrifice, meaning he did away with the system of animal sacrifice, implying he did away with the entire Old Covenant with its shadows (Hebrews 10; 1) into their own prophecy about a one man Anti-Christ. There is a spirit of anti-Christ in I John 4;3, bot no one man anti-Christ there or in I John 2: 18.

In the Christian Zionist view Daniel 9: 27 only says that the anti-Christ causes the sacrifices to stop, and apparently, for Christian Zionism, Christ did not do away with the Old Covenant, at least not completely.

Jesus Christ was Israel at one time, on his appearing in man's flesh, before his apostles received the Holy Spirit.

“And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
23.And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn." Exodus 4: 22-23

“When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.” Hosea 11: 1

“And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.” Matthew 2: 15

“And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day." Isaiah 10:17

“I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.” John 8: 12

“I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles. Isaiah 42: 6

There it is, Jesus Christ, when he appeared in man's flesh, was originally the light of Israel. And he, as the light to Israel, makes a covenant with the people, seen in Daniel 9: 27. As long as Christ is in Israel, Israel is a light. But when Christ is no longer in the multitude of Israel,as Revelation 18: 23 says - the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee - then God calls his people out of the multitude (Revelation 18: 4), out of what the multitude calls the church.

The New Covenant of Jeremiah 31: 31-33 is with Israel. But Christ as the light in Israel changes Old Covenant Israel to the spiritual house of I Peter 2: 5, 9. Israel becomes the Israel which is of God (Galatians 6: 16). And, fulfilling the prophecy of Hosea 2: 23 the Gentiles were brought into Israel reborn in Christ (John 3: 1-7).

The New Covenant was not made with something different than Israel, called the Church. The church, from ekklesia, is a meeting, gathering, assembly or congregation of reborn Israel.

When a person has the Holy Spirit and believes in the New Covenant between God and man which was made possible and given to us by Christ, he has confirmed that covenant in himself, and he becomes one with Christ and begins to have something of the mind of Christ in him (Galatians 4: 19, Philippians 2: 5). But those who believe the doctrines of the spirit of Anti-Christ, promoted by the False Prophets, confirm their false teachings and the spirit of anti-Christ.

“Thus saith the Lord God; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing! They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The Lord saith: and the Lord hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word” (Ezekiel 13:3, 6).

Those deceived by the False Prophets - the multitude - try to confirm the words of the False Prophets by interpreting scripture to make it appear to support what the False Prophets have said.

 

[DHC]

The New Covenant was not made with something different than Israel, called the Church. The church, from ekklesia, is a meeting, gathering, assembly or congregation of reborn Israel.

Hello Tulsa.

Before you jump the gun and condemn half the Christian world, it may be better to seek a
solid translation of the Bible first. Your theology can wait until you read the Bible the way
it was written.

Noticed that you wrote the following lines in your thread.

The New Covenant was not made with something different than Israel, called the Church.
The church, from ekklesia, is a meeting, gathering, assembly or congregation of reborn Israel.

What we desire Tulsa in any translation of any Koine Greek text, is an accurate translation of the
Greek words into the suitable English words.

For example Tulsa, the translation of the Koine Greek 'ekklesia' is not 'church' nor is it even
a 'congregation of reborn Israel'. Here let's look at a sample verse in the book of Acts that has
this Greek word 'ekklesia'.

Acts 19:32
Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly ("ekklesia") was confused ;
and the more part knew not wherefore they were come together.

This translation of the Greek word 'ekklesia' is an 'assembly', which is a touch political in
it's meaning. The earlier Greek meaning of 'ekklesia' before the first century usage of 'ekklesia'
had a distinct political flavor. By the time of the writing of the New Testament (the first century),
the meaning of the Greek word 'ecclesia' was more simply just an 'assembly' or those 'called out'.

To be slightly more precise Tulsa, 'ekklesia' means those 'called out' for a purpose, be it political
or otherwise. So if I wandered down to the local shopping centre and called out to everyone,
'hey gather around everyone, you need to hear what our government is doing wrong', that 'assembly'
or 'called out' people who gathered together, would be an accurate translation of 'ekklesia'.

So 'ekklesia' simply means an 'assembly' or 'called out' people.

The word 'ekklesia' never means a 'reborn Israel' nor does 'ekklesia' mean the word 'church'.

That would be a dubious transliteration and certainly not a clean translation.

Both of these definitions you provided are political and theological, Tulsa, the history of the church and
our translations have to some extent, been corrupted by politics and theology!

The Greek 'ekklesia' simply means an 'assembly' or better a 'called out' group of citizens.

Here let's look at a verse that uses the Greek 'ekklesia'.

Acts 19:32
Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly ("ekklesia") was confused ;
and the more part knew not wherefore they were come together.

A simple and accurate translation of 'ekklesia', the people or the 'assembly' or better still those 'called out'
for a reason! This usage of 'ekklesia' means a mob called together, it is not a 'church' nor is it a 'reborn Israel',
definitely not.

Now we will examine another verse in the New Testament to see whether the translation remains
accurate throughout.

Ephesians 1 (KJV)
22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church

What have the translators done to the scripture Tulsa?

No longer has the Greek word 'ekklesia' maintained it's original meaning of an 'assembly' or even slightly better
a 'called out', or 'called together' group of citizens.

We have two entirely different translations of the single Greek word 'ekklesia'.

Well two different translations of the single Greek word, is just not good enough is it Tulsa?

What is going on with this translation, why have they altered the meaning of 'ekklesia'.

A 'called out people', an 'assembly of people' is not the same meaning as what the word 'church' means.

The devil is afoot Tulsa and make no mistake about that, the Greek word 'ekklesia' does not have
two separate meanings and never did. The verse above should be read as follows;

Ephesians 1 (KJV - corrected)
22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to
'those called out'.

So why did the KJV use the word 'church' and not 'assembly' or those 'called out'?

Because the brand 'KJV' was an official publication of the ruling class of England.

The king of England ruled the 'assembly' of the saints, no that will not do, a king definitely
does not rule over an 'assembly' of people. A king is soveriegn and rules a defined kingdom,
hence, the word to be used is 'church' from hence forth. Let's look at the meaning of the
word 'church' shall we Tulsa and see why this word was favored.

The word 'church' carries it's own specific meaning Tulsa.

Oxford Dictionary (English Dictionary)
Church
A particular Christian organization with its own clergy, buildings, and distinctive doctrines:
the Church of England.

See how radically different the word church is to 'an assembly' or better 'those called out'.

The word 'church' is a political organization made up of the clergy, a mirror reflection of the
very political Roman Catholic Church.

Because the use of the word 'church' enables the King to rule all citizens, all England.

James gave the translators instructions intended to guarantee that the new version would
conform to the ecclesiology and reflect the episcopal structure of the Church of England
and its belief in an ordained clergy.
(Wikipedia)

The 'church' in James (VI) day, was the official English state church, not a mob or an assembly.

The new Church of England needed it's own adjusted translation and it got one, the KJV.

The KJV brand is a politicaly correct translation of the era it was written in.

If you desire the correct translation of 'ekklesia' in the verse above, then look no further than the following.

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
Ephesians 1
22 and all things He did put under his feet, and did give him -- head over all things to the assembly

At last the translators ignored a corrupt tradition and the political correctness, full marks to the translators
of the YLT! A translation and not a transliteration of the Greek for a distinct political reason.

 

[Travis]

The New Covenant was not made with something different than Israel, called the Church. The church, from ekklesia, is a meeting, gathering, assembly or congregation of reborn Israel.

When a person has the Holy Spirit and believes in the New Covenant between God and man which was made possible and given to us by Christ, he has confirmed that covenant in himself, and he becomes one with Christ and begins to have something of the mind of Christ in him (Galatians 4: 19, Philippians 2: 5).

It would seem to me that the New Testament writers took the Greek word ἐκκλησία and it's original meaning, and transformed it into a new word that applies to the new assemblies which started meeting together in Jesus's name. They kind of redefined it for their own use, if you will. Church probably isn't the best name for it, but people at least usually understand what one is saying when the word is used. I can role with that thought though.

I always get kind of spooked when things that sound like replacement theology start being talked about. Mainly because of this one chapter in the book of Romans, Chapter 11 that is.

Romans 11: KJV

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? ...

15 For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches. ...

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: ...

28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes. ...

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.​

Maybe something is wrong with the eschatological mindset of many people. Perhaps things won't play out the way many assume. But has God totally forsaken the physical offspring of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob that are called the Jews, or Hebrews? Even if they are in unbelief?

Of that, I am not so sure.

Grace to you,

Travis

 

[tulsa 2011]

There is another text that does not support the Christian Zionist teaching that the Old Covenant still exists after the Cross.

Its Matthew 3: 7-13

Matthew 3: 7-13 On the Doing Away With Old Covenant Israel

"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8. Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9. And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12. Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
13. Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him." Matthew 3: 7-13

The Pharisees and Sadducees were the religious leaders of Old Covenant Israel at the time John the Baptist talked to them. John is opposing them in asking them "who hath warned you to flee the wrath to come?" The Pharisees and Sadducees, as the False Prophets of that time, were under the wrath of God.

Then John tells them "And think not that to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to out father..." John was bringing in the New Covenant in telling the Pharisees that physical descent from Abraham will no longer get you into the kingdom of God.

"And now also the axe is laid unto the root pf the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." Christian Zionists do not like metaphors in scripture because of their literal "hermeneutic," but this is a simple metaphor. The trees that are cut down are Old Covenant Israel.

"He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire." This is the New Covenant, in which we must be born again to see the kingdom of God, which is within you.

"Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." His wheat are the elect, those born again by the Holy Spirit, in whom Christ is being formed. But the chaff, all those who reject Christ and do not receive the Holy Spirit, are burned, meaning those of Old Covenant Israel who rejected Christ do not continue in Israel, because Christ has changed Israel. Anyone, Jew or Gentile, must be born again in Christ to get in or stay in Israel.

John is saying quite a bit about the complete doing away with the Old Covenant, the trees that are cut down in Matthew 3: 10..

 

[tulsa 2011]

The church, from ekklesia, is almost always used as a local assembly of God's people in the New Testament, including some who are not of the elect but are interested. In some verses of the New Testament, ekklesia is used to refer to many or all such local gatherings of Christians. Only in Colossians 1: 18 and Colossians 1: 24 does Paul use ekklesia in a way that could be construed to mean that he is changing the doctrine on the church. That is, in Colossians 1: 18 and Colossians 1; 24 he might seem to be saying that now the ekklesia (church) is the Body of Christ, when before it was just an assembly, meeting or congregation. In that same letter - Colossians - Paul in Colossians 4: 15-16 writes "Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.
16. And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea."

In addition, after Paul wrote Colossians, John in Revelation also uses ekklesia (church) in the usual local meaning of a congregation. Ekklesia used as a local assembly of believers is used several times in Revelation Chapter one and Two, and again in Revelation 22: 16

To make the ekklesia (church), as the meeting, assembly, gathering or congregation, into the Body of Christ would be a change of doctrine in the New Covenant. If it were true that the meaning of ekklesia (church) was changed by Paul to become the body of Christ, this raises questions about the identity of those in Christ, and about the outcome of the change in Israel mine inheritance. These issues are partly why the meaning of Galatians 6: 16 and of Romans 11: 26 are important.

 

[DHC]

The church, from ekklesia, is almost always used as a local assembly of God's people in the New Testament, including some who are not of the elect but are interested. In some verses of the New Testament, ekklesia is used to refer to many or all such local gatherings of Christians.

Hello Tulsa.

You said the following Tulsa which is simply not correct.

The church, from ekklesia, is almost always used as a local assembly of God's people in the New Testament,

That is the twenty first century meaning of the word 'ekklesia', that is not the first century meaning of the word 'ekklesia'.

See how you fare if you wish to use your preferred meaning of the word 'ekklesia' in the following passages.

Acts 19:32
Some therefore cried one thing and some another, for the assembly (ekklesia) was confused,
and most of them did not know why they had come together.

Now we alter the passage above and insert your definition Tulsa.

Acts 19:32
Some therefore cried one thing and some another, for the local assembly of God's people (ekklesia)
was confused, and most of them did not know why they had come together.

The problem is immediately apparent, Acts (19:32) is a mob 'those called out' and not a church.
Ekklesia in this passage has the simple meaning of an assembly of people, those 'called out'.

The warning bell has started ringing Tulsa.

We will examine another passage with the Greek 'ekklesia' and see if we can insert the word 'church'.

Acts 19:39
But if you have any other inquiry to make, it shall be determined in the lawful assembly (ekklesia).

Yet again the word 'church' or local assembly of God's people is not a suitable translation of the Greek 'ekklesia'.

For this passage is talking about an assembly that is not lawful.

The warning bell is still ringing Tulsa.

Acts 19:41
And when he had said these things, he dismissed the assembly (ekklesia).

You would not dare insert 'church' or local assembly of God's people in the passage above, would you Tulsa.

Let us practice consistency in our translation of the book of Acts.

Still the bell tolls.

Here we go Tulsa, here is 'ekklesia' in the passage below.

Acts 20:17
From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called for the elders of the ekklesia

Your translation would be as follows.

From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called for the elders of the 'church' or local assembly of God's people?

No the correct translation is as follows.

From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called for the elders of the 'called out'.

Your translation changes the meaning of the word 'ekklesia' depending on the passage.

My translation is entirely consistent with the true and original meaning of the word 'ekklesia'.

Now the going will get rough for those who insist on the usage of the word 'church'.

Acts 7:38
This is he who was in the assembly (ekklesia) in the wilderness with the Angel who spoke
to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, the one who received the living oracles to give to us,

There was no church in the wilderness Tulsa, for Christ had not yet been crucified and raised!

There definitely was a 'called out' or 'assembly' of people in the wilderness, refugees from Egypt.

Please Tulsa, I ask that you no longer translate the Greek 'ekklesia' as church.

Be consistent from now on and use the correct meaning of 'called out'.

Because you have been chosen, set apart, 'called out' from darkness, elect.

In every single instance of more than one hundred uses of 'ekklesia' in the New Testament we can
safely use the original meaning of 'called out' with no alterations.

To use the word 'church' forces a fluctuation in the meaning of 'ekklesia' from passage to
passage, all the way through the New Testament.

See what happens when we force a political translation into the text to alter the meaning,
we end up being inconsistent.

 

[DHC]

To make the ekklesia (church), as the meeting, assembly, gathering or congregation, into the Body of Christ would be a change of doctrine in the New Covenant. If it were true that the meaning of ekklesia (church) was changed by Paul to become the body of Christ,.

Hello Tulsa.

Ekklesia (ἐκκλησία)
Strong's: G1577
The meaning is, a calling out.

Ekklesia G1577 (ἐκκλησία)
is formed from two Koine Greek words, ek (G1537) and kaleo (G2564).
The first word 'ek' means, out from.
The second word 'kaleo' means, to call.

Hence 'ekklesia' means, a calling out.

This is the first century meaning of the Greek word 'ekklesia', a calling out.

We have to be careful and not confuse the meaning of ekklesia with the meaning
of the word ekklesia in the twenty first century.

The twenty first century meaning of 'ekklesia' is quite different from the first century meaning.

From Strong's Concordance.
G1577 Ekklesia
a people called out from the world and to God, the outcome being the Church (the mystical body of Christ)
– i.e. the universal (total) body of believers whom God calls out from the world and into His eternal kingdom.

The meaning of the word 'ekklesia' has been altered by political interests and the church over time.

We now have ekklesia in it's theological meaning that has no relation to the Biblical Koine Greek.

How words change over time amazes me Tulsa.