Coming In The Clouds

[TRUTH BE TOLD]

I wonder how it is so many people believe so many different things about each verse it seems...


If our passed on believers are in Heaven with Jesus did scripture lie?

Paul tells us to wait with them until Jesus is revealed from heaven 2thes 1:7 and 10

But even though there are more than 10 verses that say we are Not in heaven at this time people still believe traditions of men vs Gods word


When it is said both to believers and to non believers that the next time you see Christ is coming on the clouds (what paul waits for) so how can someone see Jesus another way? To he in heaven now would certainly make the statement untrue...

Mark 14:65 says the next time you see me will be at the right hand of power coming on the clouds..... this is in Revelation both at 6:12-17 and 14:14-16 see also Matt 24:29-31 - Mark 13:24-27 - Luke 21:25-28

We see the angel come out from God and tell Jesus who doesnt know the hour of his coming that it is time for the white cloud gathering that paul waits for....14:14

And we see in 14:16 Jesus doing the rapture or gathering together.

Acts 1:9-11 Jesus is taking into a cloud and believers are told the next time they see Him will be in the same manner.

So could someone explain how you got around scripture? No where does it say were in heaven until christ comes.... so why do you believe it?

Luke 21:28 look up for your redemption is near

 

[TRUTH BE TOLD]

In 2thess 1:7 paul says
Those who are troubled...wait with them until jesus is revealed from Heaven

(Of course this means paul is waiting until the gathering together that 2thess is about...to have Jesus REVEALED to him......

In Phil 2:16 paul says he Hopes he hasnt ran and labored in VAIN..... verse 15 is talking about the Day of Christ..... which is the coming of the Lord on the clouds...

(Paul doesnt believe in OnceSavedAlwaysSaved) he is unsure if he has run in vain and will find out in the day if his body is changed from corruptible to incorruptible....

and then Jesus tells us His REWARD is With Him Rev 22:12

So paul and david who hasnt ascended to heaven (acts 2:34) are waiting for Christ to see if they labored in vain or not....

Daniel 12:1-2 shows us all eyes (Rev 1:7) will see that opening of the book of life together and and some get shame and some get life... both these verses show both saved and unsaved awakening for the gathering of those in the lambs book of life... Rev 14:14-20 both saved and unsaved together and being separated and 20 is a result of the verses right before Dan 12:1-2.... and thats the gathering of the armies for armageddon 11:43-45....

Paul waits for daniel 12:1-3

This is why you see the first mention of a great many people in heaven at Rev 7:9 which is After Gods day of wrath is announced 6:9 but Before God pours out that wrath at 8:7....

After all we are not appointed to wrath

 

[TRUTH BE TOLD]

But forget all that..

If the next time we see Christ is coming in those clouds paul waits for, how did you see him another way?



WHen Christ comes and we see Him as He really is (2thes2:10) and the Gathering together will be the Son's Glory day because of those people who are counted as faithful and true... the elect... and Jesus gets this glory in front of everyone who ever lived because all things were made through by and For Him....

 

[TRUTH BE TOLD]

Then of course we go onto the marriage feast while the whole world ....all that ever lived go thru Gods wrath.... then we come back with Jesus to rule and reign over all those on earth.....

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Theres a saying that figures can't lie but liars can figure.
Man's logic and distorted sense of judgement can try to serve two masters but in the end will gravitate one way or another.
Let every man be a liar but let God be true.

By our logic we can only be in one place at a time.
Scripture is not restricted to time and space or scripture would contradict itself.

We have to make any belief system take all scripture into account.
If we can't do that then we have settled for something less than truth.

So how would you explain these scriptures so that they fit perfectly with the valid scripture that you mentioned.

Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
Colossians 3:1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
John 17:21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
John 17:23 I in them and you in me--so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
1 Corinthians 6:17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

Eternal means no beginning and no end,always was and always will be.
God is spirit,God is one and he is complete,whole and lacking nothing.
God does not change because the only thing that could result is imperfection.
God can not lie because he is not a man.Only man has the capacity to lie and disbelieve God.
That's what really separates us from the rest of God's creation.

There can't be time in eternity because that would be change and less than whole and complete perfection.
Without time space itself becomes unnecessary because time and space are simply ways to express events.Events are a way to teach concepts.

Let's take the scripture you posted and the scripture I posted
and ponder,pray,meditate,seek,knock,trust,study,believe and ask for truth..
If we have a belief system it will need to be updated and patched constantly every time doubt (like a hacker) assails it

For this reason I found it easier to have a belief goal instead.
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

I have commited to believe on the one whom God sent.
Jesus is the way to eternal life.
Eternal life is knowing God and is not restricted to or by time and/or space.

 

[TRUTH BE TOLD]

Well first you must show how you get around that scripture... you seem to think it is nullified by your verses? They both cant be right so lets see... its pretty clear the one I gave so lets look at yours...

eph 2:6 - yes TOGETHER but are you there now TOGETHER with the saints who have passed on? No of course not but this tells us we arrive TOGETHER during the gatheringTOGETHER but even that is not what its really talking about but that Christ assurance for us of eternal life.... as He rose again and sat and the right hand of the Father so shall we rise and be where he is....

Col 2:12 this is fig speaking.... again were all believers have been raised with Christ but this has nothing to do with believers being in heaven at this time

the last 4 have nothing to do with being in heaven...

So again the verse I gave was to the point.... we believers and unbelie ers alike are told the NEXT TIME YOU SEE CHRIST is coming on the clouds and this is well know as the rapture or gathering together....

Do you not believe that which you read? Where is your word that says your in heaven when you pass away?..... not trying to argue you just trying to get you to say....wait a minute that verse says were not in heaven.... david is not in heaven and paul says to wait all for the rapture..... you simply cant get around such a clear verse plus the others I offered...

 

[TRUTH BE TOLD]

Eternal life might not be in space or time but when we pass away we pass away here in space and time and paul says he waits... why does paul ask you to wait with them until Jesus comes in the clouds if hes already in heaven? Has Jesus came in the clouds yet?


Then Paul still waits..... how can anyone say he doesnt?
And it says david has Not ascended but how can he be in heaven and have not also ascended?

They dont work but one way

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Well first you must show how you get around that scripture... you seem to think it is nullified by your verses? They both cant be right so lets see... its pretty clear the one I gave so lets look at yours...

Not at all,I acknowledged the validity of the verses you posted and suggested that we look for a way all can be reconciled.

eph 2:6 - yes TOGETHER but are you there now TOGETHER with the saints who have passed on? No of course not but this tells us we arrive TOGETHER during the gatheringTOGETHER but even that is not what its really talking about but that Christ assurance for us of eternal life.... as He rose again and sat and the right hand of the Father so shall we rise and be where he is....

That's a confusing answer.
My body is not there for sure.
My soul is not experiencing that reality.
In the spirit which is the new creature in Christ I am seated there now.

If you believe you are a person stuck in a body or you are the body then what you say makes sense for you.
I believe that I have been born of spirit which is eternal and that old things are
passed away and all things are new and all things are of God.
In other words a new creature in Christ,seated in Christ.

John 5:25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Col 2:12 this is fig speaking.... again were all believers have been raised with Christ but this has nothing to do with believers being in heaven at this time

John 5:25
Eternal means no beginning and no end,always was and always will be.
So if you are waiting to begin eternal life then you will always be waiting because there can be no beginning in eternity.
Your spirit was given by God and returns to God but really it never left God because like God it is eternal and if it had really left God that would be a change.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 6:40
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."
Jesus is the light of the new jerusalem where there is no night.So he is the day and he is the last day.
He is also the day that the Lord has made,a day with no end.

the last 4 have nothing to do with being in heaven...

They have to do with being one with the Father.
how can we be one with the Father if we are separated from him.

John 5:25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
If you believe you are stuck in time separated from God then your hour is coming.
That's your choice,but if you hear him "now" you can live now.

So you see I'm not disagreeing with you,I am just showing an option you may not have considered.

 

[TRUTH BE TOLD]

If we are told the next time we see Jesus is coming in the clouds.. how can you see him another way?

answer that?

 

[TRUTH BE TOLD]

Paul says he waits till jesus comes on the clouds

Correct....

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

If we are told the next time we see Jesus is coming in the clouds.. how can you see him another way?

answer that?

Caught up in the clouds to meet him in the air.

Lets find some cloud scriptures.
Scripture says with 2 or 3 witnesses let everything be established.
Speaking of witnesses there will be a CLOUD of them.
Hebrews 12:1. Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us

There are many references to this cloud of witnesses.
When he returns he will be coming in the clouds.
With all his saints.
If you study cloud,clouds,witness,witnesses and air this pattern shows continuity.

Psalms 108:4. For thy mercy is great above the heavens: and thy truth reacheth unto the clouds.
Psalms 36:5. Thy mercy, O LORD, is in the heavens; and thy faithfulness reacheth unto the clouds.
(is this saying there is a limit to his faithfulness?Or are they more than just clouds)

Psalms 57:10. For thy mercy is great unto the heavens, and thy truth unto the clouds.
(he sure must like water vapor,although I can't fathom why water vapor might need mercy.)

Psalms 68:34. Ascribe ye strength unto God: his excellency is over Israel, and his strength is in the clouds.(strength in clouds?)

Nahum 1:3. The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

Man was made from dust we are the feet of Christ because we preach the gospel..

We are seated in heavenly places like the clouds of heaven which contain the potential to water the earth
and the electrical potential to bring light to the earth in the form of lightning.
He comes in the clouds (our potential for realization of his finished work) to bring lightnings and to water the earth to water the seeds of truth that the sower had sown.
Lightning is a dramatic infusion of light and power that can fuse sand into a single rock.

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Deuteronomy 33:2And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

You see seated in heaven as figurative and the clouds as literal.
I see seated in heaven as literal and clouds as figurative for believers seated in heaven.

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Who is the god of this world.
Who is the prince of the power of the air.
We already live in Satan's Kingdom,how else would he have tempted Christ with it.
Meeting him in the air could be a cryptic portrayal of
the ultimate Domination of the air realm by Jesus and his cloud of witnesses.

 

[TRUTH BE TOLD]

Ok so thats a No on the Op scripture.....

 

[TRUTH BE TOLD]

Cross... how clear can it be.. they watch Jesus go up in the clouds and are told He will return the same way....... nothing more I can say...


But it is clear to all that Jesus will be seen next coming in the clouds and Not going to heaven before the gathering together..

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

When it is said both to believers and to non believers that the next time you see Christ is coming on the clouds (what paul waits for) so how can someone see Jesus another way? To he in heaven now would certainly make the statement untrue...

Why do we need to see him with flesh eyeballs,he lives in you and me if we will let him.
John 17:22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one-

I am way more concerned with being one with Jesus and the Father.
Why did Jesus say to his disciples "no man has seen the Father,but you see him".
The Father is in heaven so how were they seeing into heaven?
Is heaven a place in space and time?
If jesus went up from the eastern hemisphere would he have to go down from the western hemisphere?
Or if he comes down to the eastern hemisphere will he then come up from the western?
If he comes down from the eastern hemisphere how will the other hemisphere see him?

John 17:3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
John 17:4“I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.

Jesus gave us work to do,the one whom God sent us.
That makes us the one whom God sent.
We may look like many but we are "one" in the Father.
Kind of like a cloud,many particles of water in one body.

We can water the whole earth or we can withhold that water.

Jude 1:12 These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm--shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted--twice dead.

There are clouds with rain and light and clouds who withhold rain and light.
He is coming in the clouds,he is coming in his saints.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

If people can be clouds without rain then how would a cloud(a people) with rain even form,unless God gives them rain by dwelling in them.
If we are the abode of the Father and the Father is in heaven then where do you suppose heaven would be located?