Conscience and Moral Decay

[KingJ]

At the time that Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, they became aware of their nakedness. They received the knowledge of good and evil.

Gen 3:11 And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?
Gen 3:22 The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.

As such, a popular argument from Christians to all when witnessing, is the matter of our conscience convicting us of what is evil, IE sin. IE We all feel the need to repent of our sins.

Now this is a good argument for a Christian to raise in discussion they have with the unsaved. It is a discussion of something that should be common knowledge. Unlike a belief of Jesus being Lord and faith in Him being necessary for salvation.

However, at certain times in history. Times like Sodom and the Flood. The knowledge of what is good and evil evolved in the direction of evil being called good. This makes for an interesting and sometimes annoying discussion with the unsaved. There was a time when we would all agree that X was evil and punishment of Y was fair and reasonable. Today however, X is accepted, any punishment taboo and any opposition can land up getting you in prison .

This truly annoys me. When people lose their moral compass it becomes difficult to preach on the need for repentance of sin.

We are in the end times and another catastrophic end of age event is on the horizon. So, how do we still pursue this line of reasoning in order to get people to see the need to repent? I feel we have no choice but to move down the line with the evil. Now, don't get me wrong. I am not stating that we approve of sin, we just grasp that their moral compass is further down the hill then ours.

As such, we need to evolve our 'preaching' to be effective. We need to avoid getting 'caught up' in a debate on matters they do not see as evil. There will be sins they do agree are evil and we need to focus on those. All those that are still living, are living because God is convinced that they are not yet sold out to a love of what is evil. God has consistently, throughout scripture spared His wrath to the absolutely last minute. We are not witnessing to the devil. The devil would debate every single evil act being sinful or not.

Example of how preaching needs to evolve:

Fifty years ago, Sin A, B and C are evil. All agree. Some repent, some don't.

Today, Sin A and B are evil but not C. Focus A and B. Do not get held up with C. Move on, agree to disagree. Mention that God considers everything. C will only be an item of contention as a result of upbringing and media's influence. It could be that some are less accountable for C over others. But make no mistake, when someone repents and they receive the power of God in their lives. They will grasp that A, B and C are sins that upset God. Let's leave C, to God and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

All those that are still living, are living because God is convinced that they are not yet sold out to a love of what is evil.

Do you remember the discussion Abraham had regarding the LORD destroying Sodom?

May I speak up for the Gospel?

Who is the One Who convicts and converts?
Does He need us to use modernized methods in order for His Gospel to reach those He will fill with His Truth?


Bless you ....><>

 

[KingJ]

Greetings,


Do you remember the discussion Abraham had regarding the LORD destroying Sodom?

At the time of Sodom, the inhabitants knew they were sinning. Much like those in Nineveh. Jonah, simply said 'repent, your sins are grievous and upsetting God'.

They agreed with Jonah and repented. Nobody needed to sit with them and debate the sins. That is because they all (adults) have working brains that can grasp good and evil. As Gen 3:22 clearly explains.

May I speak up for the Gospel?

Who is the One Who convicts and converts?

Conscience. Working brain.

God / The Holy Spirit can also do this. The Holy Spirit will do this for Christians who open the door to Him. As James 4:8 clearly explains.

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

I guess we could also argue that its all God's doing as He made us. Gave us our working brains.

Does He need us to use modernized methods in order for His Gospel to reach those He will fill with His Truth?

Bless you ....><>

What God 'needs' is an interesting discussion.

To modernized methods, certainly not. But it can help.

Side note, I often wonder to myself if God really needs us here. Then I am reminded that the answer to that is a resounding YES. It is due to true free will existing. God does not want to literally appear and introduce Himself to all. If He did that, our free will to serve Him will be taken away. If one rejects God after literally seeing Him, that would surely be instant destruction. As such God does not reveal Himself to those who don't from free will choose to serve Him / be after His heart. Unless it is that they are sold out to a love of what is evil and it is time for their destruction. I guess this is why scripture says the only sign the wicked will see is the sign of Jonah Matt 12:39.

 

[KingJ]

I just want to qualify my statement on sins in the OP.

When I say we must agree to disagree on sins, I am NOT referring to any sin that is considered to be a mortal sin. A sin that upsets God so much that He ordained a graphic and violent death by stoning for.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings Sir,

Thank you for your reply. I might respond a little later. ( to the bits you replied to) [fitting everything in can be a juggle! ]

Regarding your last post, should we recall the times when the LORD did His own Judgment and Penalty ... meaning, beyond the punishment you referred to... and many were dealt a deadly blow as a result of sin?


Bless you and yours ....><>

 

[KingJ]

Regarding your last post, should we recall the times when the LORD did His own Judgment and Penalty ... meaning, beyond the punishment you referred to... and many were dealt a deadly blow as a result of sin?

When God 'deals a deadly blow' it is because the person / people are clearly sold out to a love of what is evil. We see this with the Amorites as an example in Gen 15:16. The Hebrews wanted God to destroy them, but God said 'no' and waited until their sin was full measure. We see this with the people of Nineveh whose sin warranted the death penalty, did not receive it as they repented when Jonah asked them to. That they were later destroyed is a separate matter. The lesson is that God honors true repentance of any sin.

In the case of the Jews obeying laws and giving some the death penalty per Leviticus. It was to make an example of God's hatred of the sin among His people. As opposed to one being fully sold out to a love of evil. IE A Jew in the OT who raped someone, could sincerely repent and find favor with God per Psalm 51:17, but yet, they would still have to be stoned to death to uphold the requirements of the law.

It is also important for us to note that God's wrath came upon Sodom because their sins were grievous. If it was reported that some in Sodom were stealing candy from the candy store, there would have been no outcry by His people.

Gen 18:20 Then the LORD said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous''.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

The reference was for the Israelites, not the Nineveh's or Sodom's. @KingJ


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

Conscience. Working brain.

God / The Holy Spirit can also do this. The Holy Spirit will do this for Christians who open the door to Him. As James 4:8 clearly explains.

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

I guess we could also argue that its all God's doing as He made us. Gave us our working brains

Exactly how much can any man add to what the Lord has done in and through His Son?

How much working brain can get anyone saved?

Surely if it is things we can do, Jesus died in vain and to add to that... What variation there would have to be in 'success'....
and what of boasting?

That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Corinthians 1:29

For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
1Corinthians 4:7


Bless you ....><>

 

[KingJ]

Greetings,

Exactly how much can any man add to what the Lord has done in and through His Son?

Nothing.

How much working brain can get anyone saved?

It can't.

Surely if it is things we can do, Jesus died in vain and to add to that... What variation there would have to be in 'success'....
and what of boasting?

That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Corinthians 1:29

For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
1Corinthians 4:7


Bless you ....><>

We must be careful to not mix 1. Finding favor with God and 2. Being saved.

If we mix them we can end up with either a works based salvation or a Calvinistic, chosen, regenerated and saved with preference by God, message. Both are pure heresy.

1. Finding favor with God

1 Sam 13:14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the Lord hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the Lord hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the Lord commanded thee.
James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Rev 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
1 Cor 11:31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment.

To better understand this we need to look at the OT. Consider Hades and the divide therein mentioned by Jesus in Luke 16, the story of the rich man and Lazarus. A divide in Hades between hell and Abraham's bosom. A period prior to the cross. Nobody was saved and yet many sinners were not in hell. The difference between sinners in hell and sinners in AB was repentance of sin. Something all adults with a working brain can do. Something God expects from all as per the scriptures above.

2. Salvation

This is a gift from God to the whomsoever chooses to repent of their sins. A sacrifice from God the Son, Jesus. A cleansing of sin that reunites us with God the Father.

God judges the depth of our hearts and minds as only He can Jer 17:9-12. He draws near to us when we draw near to Him, we do this by repenting, washing our hands clean, purifying our hearts as clearly stated in James 4:8 above. It is then that the Holy spirit gives us a measure of faith Rom 12:3 and a revelation of Jesus being Lord 1 Cor 12:3.

1 Cor 12:3 No one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says 'Let Jesus be cursed! ' and no one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit.

After the cross, Abrahams bosom was emptied. There is no need for those that are after God's heart to be outside of His presence. This is why today it is easy to make the mistake of not drawing a line between finding favor with God and receiving the gift of salvation.

 

[Beetow]

● Gen 3:22 . . .The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.

The man became "like" one of us, which is different than becoming one of us. In
other words: the man became a tin God (Psalm 82) and his conscience-- which at
one time had the potential to be perfect in every way --is now a fallen conscience.

The Levitical system per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy specifies a
number of sacrifices and offerings for a man's behavior, but doesn't specify a ritual
that atones for a man's fallen conscience; not even Yom Kippur. (Heb 9:9)

But even if there were a Levitical atonement specified for a man's fallen conscience,
it would still need to be replaced with a conscience that has the potential to be
perfect in every way.

Well; the cross atones for a man's fallen conscience (Heb 9:14 & Heb 10:22) but it
appears to me that only a reboot like the one spoken of by John 3:3-8 can actually
do something about correcting it. (cf. Ezek 36:24-27)
_

 

[KerimF]

I wonder if the topic of this thread could be related somehow to some very clear sayings of Jesus as:

"But I say unto you, that ye resist not evil..."
"Love your enemies..."
"Judge not..."
etc.

I mean, does Jesus brought us any (heavenly) rule to obey or ritual to observe as it is the case in all other religious beliefs (for example, as it is the case in Judaism and Islam... to name a few)? Did Jesus bring us a list of what makes a human be good or evil and ask us to honor the good ones and condemn the evil ones?

Sorry, in my humble knowledge, Jesus' message focuses solely on how the living of the Unconditional Love towards all others (the ones, a human may meet), good or evil, can feed one's soul to survive in this temporarily life and for eternity (after the death of the living flesh).
Am I just imagining things not real?

Anyway, I am sorry that I don't have the power that many humans around the world seem to have to please or upset God (the Will/Power which is behind the creation of our huge universe). My relationship with God (the One Loving Will/Power of my Father in Heaven and Jesus, unified since before Creation, by the Holy Spirit) is that I trust 'IT' to no limit in everything created in the world. Yes, I admit, this unlimited trust is not easy at all to almost all humans because it clearly opposes the instincts of their living flesh whose main role (of the instincts) is to take care of it only (the living flesh), not their living soul (I am afraid that how someone could perceive the existence of his soul needs another thread).