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Did Jesus come to bring peace or not?

Chad

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Did Jesus come to bring peace or not?

Matthew 10:34; Luke 2:14; 22:36 and Mark 9:50; John 14:27; 16:33; Acts 10:36

No Peace

(Matthew 10:34) - "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35"For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household."

(Luke 12:51) - "Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; 52for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two, and two against three..."

(Luke 22:36) - "And He said to them, "But now, let him who has a purse take it along, likewise also a bag, and let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one."

Peace

(Mark 9:50) - "Salt is good; but if the salt becomes unsalty, with what will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another."

(John 14:27) - "Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives, do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful"

(John 16:33) - "These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace..."

(Acts 10:36) - "The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)."

Context is the key to Jesus' words. In Matthew 10:34, Jesus is speaking about the divisions that will come, even among family members, over their belief or lack of belief about Him. In that respect, He has come to bring division. This context is also related in Luke 12:51.

Luke 22:36 Jesus is preparing the disciples for His departure. He is telling them that they will need to provide for themselves and even protect themselves. Up to that time, everything they had needed had been provided. But, after the crucifixion and ascension, they would again be "on their own." They would need to work, provide for their families, and, if need be, protect their own; hence, the mention of the sword. Of course, the Bible teaches that Christians are to be peaceful, loving, and forgiving; however, it also teaches that we are not required to sit idly by when persecuted unrighteously.

The rest of the "peace" verses, teach just that: peace.

Jesus did not contradict Himself. When we look at His words in context, we can see what He was saying and that there is no contradiction at all.

 
Boanerges played that sooo safe... lol

Although Jesus came to give hope to those that had none, the poor and destitute. Being The Word part of God, from the beginning man chose to make his own decisions by wanting to know good and evil. Genesis 3:22; And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

He knew His presence in society would split society but because God loves us so much, He gave a part of Himself to show us how to live our lives, one day at a time. Situation to situation. Yet one more chance for us to follow Him and not choose the easy way out. Everything Jesus said and did, logged. Even when confronted and challenged by the Pharisees, while sitting with eurchins eating and teaching. They asked why, if he were the Messiah why isn't he spending time with them, does any one even care what Jesus said to them. You already believe you don't need me, I am here for the lost, these (the people he was sitting with) are the ones I have come for.

Today, that same guide is every bit as relevent, as is our role in the God's creation. Some have chosen to denounce Jesus, others live by His word, some what to believe but are too scared to (John 12:37-50). And some out of confusion blindly follow men claiming to speak for God.
 
lol One day I may learn how to do that, play things safe, well NOT!!! have a good night
 
Jesus brought a sword that a man's enemy are those of his own household. I find that true alot with my family. I know that I need to stand for the truth of God's Word. I sometimesfind it difficult to stand but I'm getting better at it.
 
Peace be unto you

I believe that Jesus meant that he didn't come to give peace to the world, but to his people. Similar to that of—

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

God's intentions were to save the world, but those that refuse Jesus become condemned ( not God's intentions ) anyway.

Chad: Luke 22:36 Jesus is preparing the disciples for His departure. He is telling them that they will need to provide for themselves and even protect themselves. Up to that time, everything they had needed had been provided. But, after the crucifixion and ascension, they would again be "on their own." They would need to work, provide for their families, and, if need be, protect their own; hence, the mention of the sword. Of course, the Bible teaches that Christians are to be peaceful, loving, and forgiving; however, it also teaches that we are not required to sit idly by when persecuted unrighteously.
Matthew 26:51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.

Matthew 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

Sorry, Chad, but I disagree with you on that one because of Jesus' message about turning the other cheek, and the fact that I don't remember—at any time—in the book of Acts, any of the believers ever fighting back at all. To me, the message seems to be that Christians consider it to be a chance to glorify God when they suffer persecution. I always felt like what was meant by 'sword' in Luke 22:36 was scripture:

Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Revelation 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

And here are some other verses that helped me to draw my conclusion on the defending ourselves thing:

I Peter 2:19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.

I Peter 2:20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

I Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

I Peter 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

I Peter 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

I Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

I Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Acts 5:41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

I Corinthians 4:12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

I Corinthians 6:7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?

Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

II Timothy 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

II Timothy 2:9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

II Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

II Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

II Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

II Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

I Peter 3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
 
Now here's some interesting scripture:

Luke 14:26
If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:27
And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Like Joshua,David said
Jesus brought a sword that a man's enemy are those of his own household. I find that true alot with my family. I know that I need to stand for the truth of God's Word. I sometimesfind it difficult to stand but I'm getting better at it.
Jesus has to come first. I don't think Jesus really wants us to actually HATE our families,, but they sure will throw that in your face when they see that they no longer take first place in your priorities. But I think that is a legitimate "sword" of division that Jesus calls us to bear (Luke 12:51-53).
 
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Jesus came to bring peace between God and man through His sacrifice.


Luk 2:13-14 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying: (14) "Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace, goodwill toward men!"


Isa 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
 
Jesus came to bring peace between God and man through His sacrifice.


Luk 2:13-14 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying: (14) "Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace, goodwill toward men!"


Isa 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

My earlier post was hi-lighting the fact that Jesus promised us that our choice to follow him would cause division and cost us a lot, and that we should count that cost (Luke 14:28).

I would also like to point out that even Jesus had to deal with this issue regarding his earthly family (Luke 8:19-21).

I agree that Jesus came to bring peace to humankind in general, but that does not mean that our lives as true followers of Jesus will be without conflict. Separating the chaff and pruning the branches from the vine are bound to be painful.

John 14:27
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
 
yes and no

Did Jesus come to bring peace or not?
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven... (Ecc 3:1-8).

Sorry, Chad, but I disagree with you on that one because of Jesus' message about turning the other cheek, and the fact that I don't remember—at any time—in the book of Acts, any of the believers ever fighting back at all. To me, the message seems to be that Christians consider it to be a chance to glorify God when they suffer persecution.
Death is of the enemy. Self-defense is biblical.
 
Thank you Sojourn. There are actually, only contradictions when you create them in your own desire to have them. Sorry for having said that but it is the most true. This topic is a good case-in-point. Jesus came to teach us of peace and love for each other. To respect each other as we ourselves want to be respected and loved. The Matthew10 entry is only a contradiction when you take it out of context and misrepresent it. Since there is only 1Gospel within the first 4 books, the Luke12:51 entry is a repeat of the Matthew entry... just from a different perspective.

Back to my point, Jesus did come to bring peace; the conflict and confusion comes from making the changes in our life to follow Jesus, as the Matthew and other entries stress. In his ministry, Jesus knew we would have conflict when we change our lives... that is what this is about. Our family, our friends know us one way, good or bad it doesn't matter. When we change that we create that confusion in our family and friends which is the basis for the conflict, NOT JESUS. Oh yeah, by the way the title of that group of verses in Matthew 10, "Change Brings Conflict", it is a warning about changing our life that drastically. Jesus doesn't contradict himself or The Father. He prepares us for the the way things are by "our" doing. In the Luke entries, 2 of them, "No Compromise" at 12:51 and 14:26-27, "Love Jesus More Than Yourself" both Luke entries discuss our infamous ability to compromise the Lord's principles for our comfort.
 
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Death is of the enemy. Self-defense is biblical.


Matthew 10:28

Today's New International Version (TNIV)


Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Darby Translation (DARBY)

And be not afraid of those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul; but fear rather him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Amplified Bible (AMP)

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be afraid of Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna).

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

`And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.

King James Version (KJV)

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.



There were laws for self defence in the OT, (following all taken from NIV to simplify my post, I encourage you to examine them in your preferred translation)

Exodus 21:12-13

“Anyone who strikes a person with a fatal blow is to be put to death. However, if it is not done intentionally, but God lets it happen, they are to flee to a place I will designate.

and Exodus 22:2

“If a thief is caught breaking in at night and is struck a fatal blow, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed;

and there was also laws for retribution in the OT;

Exodus 21:23-25

But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

But in the NT we have Jesus teaching love for enemies;

Luke 6:27-29

“But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them.

And Paul explains further;

Romans 12:17-21

Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. On the contrary: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

In addition, as Stickz said, we can look to the example of the disciples and Jesus himself;

I don't remember—at any time—in the book of Acts, any of the believers ever fighting back at all. To me, the message seems to be that Christians consider it to be a chance to glorify God when they suffer persecution.

Thank you all who consider this, and please share with me if you think I am in error.
 
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I am a little curious. We are focusing on self defence. What about defending others or our family ? Can anyone seriously say they would not protect their children from an attacker with any force necessary ?
 
rightly dividing The Word

Many people, Christians included, assume that Christ taught pacifism. They cite Matthew 5:38-39 for their proof. In this verse Christ said:

Matthew 5:38-39, "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

We do not believe Christ was teaching to "turn the other cheek" in virtually all circumstances. Even Christ did not literally turn the other cheek when smitten by a member of the Sanhedrin (John 18:22-23), or when struck on the face by the palms of the Roman guards (Matthew 26:67-68, Mark 14:65, Luke 22:64).

The Sermon on the Mount, from which this passage is taken, deals with righteous personal conduct. In our passage, Christ is clearing up a confusion that had led people to think that conduct proper for the government—that is, taking vengeance—was also proper for an individual. The principle taught in the Sermon on the Mount is that bondservants of Christ should not retaliate when insulted or slandered (Romans 12:17-21). Such insults do not threaten a believer's personal safety. The question of rendering insult for insult, however, is a far cry from defending oneself against a mugger, or a woman using the martial arts against a rapist.

Even the choice of words used by Christ indicates that He was addressing a confusion, or a distortion, that was commonplace. Several times in the rest of the Sermon on the Mount, Christ used this same "Ye have heard that it hath been said" figure of speech to straighten out misunderstandings or falsehoods being taught by the religious leaders of the time.

Contrast this to Christ’s use of the phrase "It is written" or "The Scripture saith" when He was appealing to the Scriptures for authority (for example, see Matthew 4 where on three occasions during His temptation by the devil, Christ answered each one of the devil’s lies or misquotes from Scripture with the words: "it is written").

The reference to "an eye for an eye" was taken from Exodus 21:24-25, which deals with how the magistrate must deal with a crime. Namely, the punishment must fit the crime. The religious leaders of Christ’s day had twisted a passage that applied to the government and misused it as a principle of personal revenge.

Scripture distinguishes clearly between the duties of the magistrate (the government) and the duties of an individual. Namely, God has delegated to the magistrate the administration of justice. Individuals have the responsibility of protecting their lives from attackers. Christ was referring to this distinction in the Matthew 5 passage. Let us now examine in some detail what the Scriptures say about the roles of government and of individuals.

Both the Old and New Testaments teach individual self-defense, even if it means taking the assailant’s life in certain circumstances.

Exodus 22:2-3, "If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft."

One conclusion which can be drawn from this is that a threat to our life is to be met with lethal force. After "the sun has risen" seems to refer to a different judgment than the one permitted at night. At night it is more difficult to discern whether the intruder is a thief or a murderer. Furthermore, the nighttime makes it more difficult to defend oneself and to avoid killing the thief at the same time. During the daytime, it had better be clear that one’s life was in danger, otherwise, defense becomes vengeance, and that belongs in the hand of the magistrate.

Proverbs 25:26, "...it is unseemly for a righteous man to fall before an ungodly man."

Certainly, we would be falling before the wicked if we chose to be unarmed and unable to resist an assailant who might be threatening our life. In other words, we have no right to hand over our life, which is a gift from God, to the unrighteous. It is a serious mistake to equate a civilized society with one in which the decent people are doormats for the evil to trample on.

Resisting an attack is not to be confused with taking vengeance, which is the exclusive domain of God (Romans 12:19). This has been delegated to the magistrate:

Romans 13:4, "For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."

Private vengeance means one would stalk down a criminal after one’s life is no longer in danger as opposed to defending oneself during an attack. It is this very point that has been confused by Christian pacifists who would take the passage in the Sermon on the Mount about turning the other cheek (which prohibits private vengeance) into a command to fall before the wicked.

Let us consider also that the Sixth Commandment tells us: "Thou shall not murder." In the chapters following, God gave to Moses many of the situations which require a death penalty. God clearly has not told us never to kill. He has told us not to murder, which means we are not to take an innocent life. Consider also that the magistrate is to be a terror to those who practice evil. This passage does not, in any way, imply that the role of law enforcement is to prevent crimes or to protect individuals from criminals. The magistrate is a minister to serve as "a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil" (Romans 13:4).

This point is reflected in the legal doctrine of the United States. Repeatedly, courts have held that the government has no responsibility to provide individual security. One case (Bowers v. DeVito) put it this way: "[T]here is no constitutional right to be protected by the state against being murdered."

Christian pacifists may try to argue that God has changed His mind from the time that He gave the Ten Commandments. Perhaps they would want us to think that Christ canceled out the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20 or the provision for justifiably killing a thief in Exodus 22. But the writer of Hebrews makes it clear that this cannot be, because "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." (Hebrews 13:8). In the Old Testament, the prophet Malachi records God’s words this way: "For I am the LORD, I change not;" (Malachi 3:6).

Paul was referring to the unchangeability of God’s Word when he wrote in 2 Timothy 3:16-17, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." Clearly, Paul viewed all Scripture, including the Old Testament, as useful for training bondservants of Christ in every area of life.

We must also consider what Christ told His disciples in His last hours with them: ". . . he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." (Luke 22:36). Keep in mind that the sword was the finest offensive weapon available to an individual soldier—the equivalent then of a military rifle today.

The Christian pacifist will likely object at this point that only a few hours later, Christ rebuked Peter who used a sword to cut off the ear of Malchus, a servant of the high priest in the company of a detachment of troops. Let us read what Christ said to Peter:

Matthew 26:52-54, "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?"

In the companion passage in John 18, Jesus tells Peter to put his sword away and told him that He had to drink the cup that His Father had given Him. It was not the first time that Christ had to explain to the disciples why He had come to earth. To fulfill the Scriptures, the Son of God had to die for the sin of man, since man was incapable of paying for his own sin. These things became clear to the disciples only after Christ had died and been raised from the dead and the Spirit had come into the world at Pentecost (see John 14:26).

In terms of following Christ's example, one must remember that His personal nonresistance at the cross was intertwined with His unique calling. He did not evade His arrest because it was God's will for Him to fulfill His prophetic role as the redemptive Lamb of God (Matthew 26:52-56). During His ministry, however, He refused to be arrested because God's timing for His death had not yet come (John 8:59). Thus, Christ's unique nonresistance during his ministry does not mandate against self-protection.

While Christ told Peter to put up his sword in its place, He clearly did not say get rid of it forever. That would have contradicted what He had told the disciples only hours before. Peter’s sword was to protect his own mortal life from danger. His sword was not needed to protect the Creator of the universe and the King of kings.

Besides, Peter's use of force was not justified, because soldiers came to arrest Jesus and take him to trial, they did not come with the intent or goal of killing him and murdering him in the Garden with his apostles. There is a difference between a man immediately threatening ones life, and a man coming to arrest you. There is no justification for killing a man who has come to arrest you.

Another objection people bring up is this statement from Christ: "if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight." They claim that Christ did not want his servants to fight. However, this verse is quoted out of context. Let us read this entire verse:

John 18:36, "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

As we can see, this was only in reference to his servants fighting to avoid Jesus being delivered to the Jews (such as what Peter tried to do). It was the will of God that Jesus (and some of us) be arrested and brought before the majistrates, His servants are not to resist. If his servants fought in this situation, Jesus could not have fulfilled scripture! This is the reason why his servants could not fight in this situation. Jesus gave a specific reason why his servants did not fight. To ignore this reason, and claim that Jesus prohibited all fighting in all situations, would be to add to scripture something that is not there.

Years after Pentecost, Paul wrote in a letter in 1 Timothy 5:8, "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." This passage applies to our subject because it would be absurd to have a house, furnish it with food and facilities for one’s family, and then refuse to install locks and provide the means to protect the family and the property. Likewise, it would be absurd not to take, if necessary, the life of a nighttime thief to protect the members of the family (Exodus 22:2-3). Fathers are to protect their families and the state is to protect the right to do so.

A related and even broader concept is found in the parable of the Good Samaritan. Christ had referred to the Old Testament summary of all the laws of scripture into two great commandments: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself" (Luke 10:27). When asked who was a neighbor, Christ related the parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:30-37). It was the Good Samaritan who took care of the mugging victim who was a neighbor to the victim. The others who walked by and ignored the victim’s plight were not acting as neighbors to him.

In the light of all we have seen the Scriptures teach to this point, can we argue that if we were able to save another’s life from an attacker by shooting the attacker with our gun that we should "turn the other cheek instead"? Scripture speaks of no such right. It only speaks of our responsibilities in the face of an attack—as individual creatures made by God, as householders or as neighbors.

In Genesis 14, Abraham forms a militia to rescue Lot and receives the blessing of Melchizedek. Then, in Hebrews 7, this episode is repeated and God made it part of the New Testament age. There are many other passages in the Scripture and they all support our duty of self-defense. For example:

Luke 11:21-22, "When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils."

Mark 3:27, "No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house."

Matthew 12:29, "Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house."

The above words are spoken by Jesus. He said when a man is armed his goods are in peace. But when he is not armed, it is easy for criminals to bind the innocent and steal their goods. If it was against God's Will to be armed, I do not believe Jesus would speak positive about men being armed.
 
Luke 22:36 is often used in the defense of bearing arms but Jesus explained why he told the disciples to "buy a sword" in the very next sentence....

"For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, 'AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS'; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment."

Carrying swords placed Jesus amid transgressors and He was also between them on the cross. Notice also that Jesus said two swords was enough. If the swords were for defense I think you will agree two was certainly not enough. Jesus intent was never one of physical use of the sword and, as He said, they were there to aid in the fulfillment of prophecy.

Luk 22:36-38 And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one. (37) "For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, 'AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS'; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment." (38) They said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough."


Luke 11:21 , Mark 3:27, and Matthew 12:29 all represent satan as the strong man. The scribes were accusing Jesus of being in partnership with satan. Jesus told the scribes how He must bind satan to release people from his bondage. It's not about being people needing to carry weapons.


Just a couple of points.......
 
Thank you to agua for pointing out the meanings of Luke 22:36-38, Luke 11:21, Mark 3:27 and Matthew 12:29


I hope also to give readers of this thread something to consider by showing some of the alternate translations of a key verse my brother sojourn4Christ has pointed to.

Proverbs 25:26

New International Version (NIV)

Like a muddied spring or a polluted well
are the righteous who give way to the wicked.

Darby Translation (DARBY)

A troubled fountain, and a defiled well, is a righteous [man] that giveth way before the wicked.

Amplified Bible (AMP)

Like a muddied fountain and a polluted spring is a righteous man who yields, falls down, and compromises his integrity before the wicked.

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

A spring troubled, and a fountain corrupt, [Is] the righteous falling before the wicked.

King James Version (KJV)

A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring.


The emphasis when all translations are considered, is that righteous people who do not remain righteous when in wicked company are like corrupt springs. Righteous in this context means keeping the law. Hence as the AMP says; compromising his integrity.

Certainly, we would be falling before the wicked if we chose to be unarmed and unable to resist an assailant who might be threatening our life. In other words, we have no right to hand over our life, which is a gift from God, to the unrighteous.

If we turn this on it's head, the things that God wants us to do are his law, if we break the law we sin, if God is truly saying in the bible to bear arms to defend ourselves then we would be sinning to not do so. Were all the matyrs sining by the manner of their death when they gave up God's gift of life to unrighteous men?

I am certainly not condemning self defence. But to say that it is a biblical precept is to raise these kind of questions.


When asked who was a neighbor, Christ related the parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:30-37). It was the Good Samaritan who took care of the mugging victim who was a neighbor to the victim. The others who walked by and ignored the victim’s plight were not acting as neighbors to him.

The victim was not in the process of being mugged. The victim was not criticised for not defending himself against the mugging. The Samaritan was in the right for taking care of the victim, not for physically defending him.

Paul wrote in a letter in 1 Timothy 5:8, "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." This passage applies to our subject because it would be absurd to have a house, furnish it with food and facilities for one’s family, and then refuse to install locks and provide the means to protect the family and the property. Likewise, it would be absurd not to take, if necessary, the life of a nighttime thief to protect the members of the family (Exodus 22:2-3).

It is inappropriate to apply this verse to this discussion as it is dealy purely with whose fiscal responsiblity needy families are. They are primarily their relatives responsibility and only if there is no family is it appropriate for them to be the fiscal responsibility of the church.


Exodus 22:2-3a (NIV)

“If a thief is caught breaking in at night and is struck a fatal blow, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed; but if it happens after sunrise, the defender is guilty of bloodshed.

An act of self defence in darkness does not produce blood-guilt. Killing an intruder in broad daylight is not justifiable. I don't know what God really wants us to do when it comes to self defence, but I don't think these verses point us towards it.
 
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We do not believe Christ was teaching to "turn the other cheek" in virtually all circumstances. Even Christ did not literally turn the other cheek when smitten by a member of the Sanhedrin (John 18:22-23), or when struck on the face by the palms of the Roman guards (Matthew 26:67-68, Mark 14:65, Luke 22:64).

Sorry, I forgot to reply to this point cause it was first... and for some reason I forgot the first one... bit crazy, anyhow!

In the first verse there is an example of Jesus replying when he was struck. But it was a very mild reply, and no record of him defending himself from being struck.

In all the other accounts it only records that Jesus was being struck, and yes, it sounds like he did exactly that and "turn the other cheek". Would you explain how you have come to believe Jesus did not "turn the other cheek" in these circumstances?
 
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Back to the topic of the thread, "peace" is not on the next agenda...

Self-defense is biblical and, by extension, so is defense of the defenseless when it is in our ability to do so.

I hope also to give readers of this thread something to consider by showing some of the alternate translations of a key verse my brother sojourn4Christ has pointed to.
This approach is, and always will be, problematic, because the poster is obviously not aware that ALL modern versions are taken from less than 1% (about 20) of the total available manuscripts (about 5000). This 0.4% minority was rejected from the Majority Text because it is corrupt. The point is, one can "prove" any doctrine they wish today when they reference these "per"-versions which are copyrighted and compiled by unsaved men and which tickle the flesh of both the simple and the would-be scholars.

Fellow servants of Christ (e.g. Christ's assembly) will understand the following analogy. Primarily in the spiritual realm, a servant of Christ is a "type" of Police officer in the community, upholding God's Law which militates against the immorality and hedonism which can so easily overwhelm a society-lawlessness and anarchy. Even as a Police officer upholds the "law of the land," a follower of Christ, if he is faithful to God and His Word, upholds and defends God's Law contained therein. To be the "standard" against lawlessness, to protect the weak, to uphold the law, to "resist evil." That's the job and calling that they have been tasked with as well as what society expects of them. Opposing evil, standing against lawlessness and anarchy, is the very core of their vocation. That's the duty of carrying that badge. Our calling is to stand in opposition to the forces of darkness as well. Therefore, followers of Christ can proudly say they are an "officer of The Law" as well.

There are few civilians with the understanding, experience, and insight to possess the qualifications to understand fully, modern day Police work, let alone the unique dynamics and peculiar practices which entail the same. Most people, as civilians, view their local law enforcement officer with a bit of mystery and bewilderment, not having a clue as to what these people have to endure every day, the training they have to go through, the demands that are made on them through the whole chain of command.

Now concerning Christ's assembly, does "the world" understand His assembly and His ways? Is "the world" qualified to comment on spiritual things and the duties of Christ's assembly? Of course not. The Scripture clearly states: "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (I Corinthians 2:14). Post modernist, humanist, and secular thinkers view most religion as "superstitious" and "regressive," even "stone-age."

The bottom line is, just as the only people qualified to police a modern day professional law enforcement agency are other professionals (their peers), so, too, the only people qualified to effectively police Christ's assembly are other spiritual leaders in Christ's assembly.
 
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Peace be unto you

Before I proceed to participate in this discussion, I'd like to clarify something first, if I may? For the most recent participants in this discussion ( this question doesn't necessarily apply to all that have posted in this thread, but all are welcome to reply, of course ): Exactly how much of the Old Testament Law still applies to us today? What I mean is—Why does this law


sojourn4Christ: Exodus 22:2-3, "If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft."
still apply to us today? But this one

Exodus 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

does not? Or, does it? Should we be putting each other to death for breaking the sabbath today? I just want someone to show me—through scripture—the difference between these two laws.

It always fascinates me when people who are usually quick to dismiss the Old Testament ( because we no longer live in it ) quote from it when it's relevant to their argument. I'm not accusing anyone here of doing this, I'm just saying that it fascinates me when people do it.

And, for someone who is so adamant about the use of only one particular Bible translation, sojourn, I find it a little more than interesting that you get so much of your information straight from the internet. Are you sure that the sites that you ... cite ... use only the Authorized King James Version?
 
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