The resurrection is the goal, I thought we all agree on that? yet scripture tells us Paul went to heaven, Jesus says we have a dwelling place in heaven, there is plenty of scripture that says we go to heaven. all the people that killed in the tribulation appear in heaven, do you think they get to go to heaven and you do not?
Hi Dave, Paul wasn't dead. Also he said that he didn't know if he went bodily or if it was a vision. If Paul didn't know I don't think we can claim to.
Yet in Jesus own words he tells the thief on the cross, sounds like heaven to me
Luke 23:43
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
Actually, He said paradise. Most Christians hold that paradise is a place in Hades. However, what did the thief request? He wanted Jesus to remember him when He came into His Kingdom. So, the thief was asking to gain entrance to the Kingdom of God. The word that is translated Paradise is the Greek word paradesios. It means a garden. In the Greek Old Testament we find the paradise of Eden. So, the thief wanted to enter the Kingdom of God, but Jesus tells the thief that he will be with Him in paradise or the garden. How does that answer the thief's request? in Revelation we find Jesus saying,
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Rev. 2:7 KJV)
Here Jesus is saying that believers will eat of the tree of life which is in the paradise of God. We know that the tree of life is in Eden. So, paradise or Eden is where the thief would be when all things are restored. But, Jesus didn't go to paradise that day, He was in the tomb for three days. If Jesus didn't go, the thief didn't go. The problem we have is that translators have let their bias enter into the translation. There is no punctuation in the original texts, it is added by the translators based on how they understand the Scriptures.
when Jesus says he is going you can not come, they can not come because they are alive, and have a job to do. Then Jesus says he will come back and Take them, meaning when we die he will come and take us to heaven to is my understanding
1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God;a believe in Me as well.
2 In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am.
4 You know the way to the place where I am going.c”
seems very clear that the fathers house is heaven, the room is a dwelling place in heaven Jesus has prepared for his believers. The way is to believe in Jesus.
But, He didn't say they couldn't come because they were alive or had a job to do. He said they could come. Also, nowhere in Scripture is Heaven referred to as "My Father's house". The house of the Lord is the temple. Jesus was speaking to HIs disciples, how would they have understood what He said?
13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up. (Jn. 2:13-17 KJV)
The disciples remembered Psalm 69. My Father's house was the temple. They understood, "My Father's house" as the temple. The many rooms in the temple were what we might refer to as apartments. They were chambers that were built into the temple walls and served as rooms for the priests who were doing their service at the temple. Jesus telling them that He was preparing these places for them indicates that they would serve as priests in the future. But where would they serve?
And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. (Rev. 11:1-2 KJV)
In Revelation John is told to measure the temple. So, there will be a future temple that the apostles will serve in. They will serve in the New Jerusalem.
Scripture time after time says we are in heaven or are going to heaven, Paul visited heaven, John had visions of heaven, Jesus Promised the thief on the cross he would be with him in heaven.
Jesus tells his disciples he is going to prepare a place for them in heaven.
But it doesn't. If we really look closely at the passages we can see that they don't state that. It must be inferred
For me it is just to much evidence to over look heaven as not a real place our spirits/souls go, since that is what scripture says, not only does scripture say we go to heaven when we die, it also says we have
consciousnesses
Revelation 6
9 And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld.
10 And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?
Again, it doesn't. Revelation is full of symbolism. We don't have single passage of Scripture that says people go to Heaven when they die. Again, if that was the ultimate goal of man it should be spelled out clearly all over the place. Paul taught salvation through faith and we have clear cut examples of him stating that plainly. He says clearly that one is saved by grace through faith. On the flip side, there isn't a single passage of Scripture that says people go to Heaven when they die.
