Easter time - Why were there no spectators at the resurrection of Jesus and why does Paul not even mention a physical resurrection?

[Victor Van Heerden]

Without the resurrection being true Christianity would have nothing to stand upon or even to separate it from other competing religions. That is why from early days devout believers have claimed that the physical resurrection happened, as prophesied by Jesus Himself. Our Lord Jesus was the greatest miracle worker to walk on planet earth in its history; multitudes flocked to be healed and listen to great sermons from all over the land. Crowds followed him everywhere. One day he told his disciples what would happen to Him:

Matthew 16:21 “21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”

His disciples knew about it and so did His enemies because at Pilot’s trial it was brought up.

Matthew 27:63-64 “Sir,” they said, “we remember that while he was still alive that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise again.’ So give the order for the tomb to be made secure until the third day. Otherwise, his disciples may come and steal the body and tell the people that he has been raised from the dead. This last deception will be worse than the first.”

Instead, according to the Gospels, no one went to see if he would come out as he supposedly predicted. Not a single person could be bothered to do so. Rather odd don’t you think? Jesus predicted his death and resurrection, the disciples and enemies knew all about it, yet no one was there at his tomb to witness as He predicted. When the tomb was found empty they were shocked to death and fell to the ground in joy, awe and bewilderment.

Matthew 28:1 “ After the Sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb.”

They went to the tomb as myrrh bearers and to carry out their last devotions to Jesus' body by anointing his body with spices and by pouring oils over it. They expected to find his body not an empty tomb. If a famous miracle worker told you and hoards of followers that at his grave three days after his death he will raise again, surely crowds would be there to see it happen.

Mary and the women who came to the tomb afterwards would definitely have been there much earlier to see it happen. Or they and multitudes would have camped for three days at the tomb.Even though the resurrection is the key central miracle of Christianity, no one saw it happen. The Apostle Paul in Hebrews tell us that Jesus is our high priest in heaven interceding on our behalf. Yet it is implied that Jesus enters into heaven immediately via ascension without any intervening bodily resurrection. There is no bodily resurrection, an empty tomb, angels at the tomb, women at the tomb, mentioned whatsoever by Paul anywhere. Hebrews says that Jesus entered the heavenly Jerusalem and its heavenly Temple in order to function as a heavenly high priest.

Even the rolled away stone itself argues against the resurrection because Jesus's resurrection body was said to be able to ignore matter - to rise to heaven on a cloud, to appear and reappear at will, and to pass through solid barriers. The tomb's stone was a solid barrier, and so Jesus ought to have been able to pass through it. That the stone was found to have been rolled away indicates an all-too-human need on the part of Jesus: 1) he couldn't pass through the stone barrier and so didn't have a resurrection body after all; 2) secret disciples unknown to the women and the disciples moved the stone and removed Jesus in order to revive him (the core thesis of the "Passover Plot"). All of which factors contra-indicate the notion of Jesus's resurrection body not being able to pass through stone.

 

[Quantrill]

None of the disciples were at the tomb due to fear and unbelief. And some of the things Jesus taught seem to just go over their heads.

Paul clearly teaches of the Resurrection. (Rom 1:4) "And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead."

The stone was not moved to let Jesus out. It was moved to let others in and see the grave was empty.

Quantrill

 

[Christ4Ever]

Hello Victor,

Instead, according to the Gospels, no one went to see if he would come out as he supposedly predicted. Not a single person could be bothered to do so. Rather odd don’t you think? Jesus predicted his death and resurrection, the disciples and enemies knew all about it, yet no one was there at his tomb to witness as He predicted. When the tomb was found empty they were shocked to death and fell to the ground in joy, awe and bewilderment.

Part of the reason might have been the Roman soldiers that were guarding the tomb. (Matthew 27:62-66). The Jews did not associate with the Roman occupiers if they could help it on the best of circumstances, much less a situation like this. Couple that with the general high tensions and the persecutions from the establishment. Not really surprising, no one was there. Plus they really did not remember all that He had told them. That would come later. (I'm sure you'll find this part, if you try. )

They went to the tomb as myrrh bearers and to carry out their last devotions to Jesus' body by anointing his body with spices and by pouring oils over it. They expected to find his body not an empty tomb. If a famous miracle worker told you and hoards of followers that at his grave three days after his death he will raise again, surely crowds would be there to see it happen.

See my previous comment. But you can look to Peter's vision in Acts. Which was needed in order to open Peter's eyes so he'd go Centurions home (Cornelius) to give the Gospel! So, even after a Risen Christ, Holy Spirit filled even, still had Peter reluctant to associate with Romans!

Mary and the women who came to the tomb afterwards would definitely have been there much earlier to see it happen. Or they and multitudes would have camped for three days at the tomb.Even though the resurrection is the key central miracle of Christianity, no one saw it happen. The Apostle Paul in Hebrews tell us that Jesus is our high priest in heaven interceding on our behalf. Yet it is implied that Jesus enters into heaven immediately via ascension without any intervening bodily resurrection. There is no bodily resurrection, an empty tomb, angels at the tomb, women at the tomb, mentioned whatsoever by Paul anywhere. Hebrews says that Jesus entered the heavenly Jerusalem and its heavenly Temple in order to function as a heavenly high priest.

You have to remember that He was considered of no account in His death. Everyone had deserted Him. So, any big expectation was forgotten. Also, keep in mind that the Holy Spirit had not made His presence known yet. Passover, and everyone was about their obligations. Humanity is kind of into those things, while at the same time putting aside the things of the Spirit.

Even the rolled away stone itself argues against the resurrection because Jesus's resurrection body was said to be able to ignore matter - to rise to heaven on a cloud, to appear and reappear at will, and to pass through solid barriers. The tomb's stone was a solid barrier, and so Jesus ought to have been able to pass through it. That the stone was found to have been rolled away indicates an all-too-human need on the part of Jesus: 1) he couldn't pass through the stone barrier and so didn't have a resurrection body after all; 2) secret disciples unknown to the women and the disciples moved the stone and removed Jesus in order to revive him (the core thesis of the "Passover Plot"). All of which factors contra-indicate the notion of Jesus's resurrection body not being able to pass through stone.

Actually Jesus was able to go through the Stone. Take a look at Matthew and see when the stone was moved.

And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. 3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: 4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead [men]. 5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. 6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. Matthew 28:2-6

Something tells me that you knew this already, but are in a sense testing to see how Christians define the events of a Risen Christ!
Just take care that in doing this, that you are not putting out there a stumbling block to others.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

Part of the reason might have been the Roman soldiers that were guarding the tomb.

Maybe but then the soldiers would have seen and experienced the resurrection. They would have been instantly saved and become fervent believers like Thomas became when the resurrected Christ appeared to him. All of Jerusalem would have heard about that both Jew and Roman. But what Roman soldiers? Mark doesn't report any witnesses to the resurrection or Roman soldier guards. Paul and the other Epistle writers also know nothing of them, and neither do Luke, and John. Only Matthew mentions them. If Roman soldiers actually experienced the resurrection, or some miraculous agency moving the stone, this could hardly have been kept quiet - and the Gospel authors would surely have seized in it as public "proof" that somebody witnessed the resurrection. But they don't do that - they imply that the authorities forbade the soldiers to mention anything about it, the penalty for sleeping on duty being death.

 

[Hekuran]

@Victor Van Heerden

Your observations are straightforward to respond to. But before I reply, what is your point? If it's just to enjoy throwing ideas around, I'll give it a miss.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

Paul clearly teaches of the Resurrection. (Rom 1:4) "And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead."

Yep he does and Paul believed that Jesus had also been raised up. But for Paul, Jesus's Passion and Resurrection took place in the lower heavens, not on earth. That is why Paul never mentions Jesus's baptism, wilderness temptation, gathering disciples, his miracles, cures and exorcisms, his sermon on the mount, his raising of Lazarus and the widow of Nain's son, or Caiaphas, Pilate, or the empty tomb etc. Rather odd would'nt you say? There was no empty tomb because Jesus's resurrection according to Paul did not take place on earth, but in the lower heavens. Paul wrote letters about Jesus CHRIST, but never mentioned Jesus of NAZARETH even once as a man who had lived a human, historical life roughly contemporaneous with Paul. Paul would have known about Jesus of Nazareth, he lived in the same time and place. The tomb was not empty because it never existed on earth in the first place, exactly as the letter to the Hebrews says, where Jesus passes directly into the heavenly Jerusalem without an intervening historical/biological resurrection.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

@Victor Van Heerden

Your observations are straightforward to respond to. But before I reply, what is your point? If it's just to enjoy throwing ideas around, I'll give it a miss.

Following the evidence to truth is the point. People lie the evidence does not. And if you have THE WHOLE truth you must be the only person on earth and i,ve never heard about you. You know everything that there is to know. Well done. Others would call you delusional. But if you want to learn enter in the discussion.

 

[Hekuran]

I'll give it a miss then.

 

[Sue D.]

@ Victor Van.....-- Why are you taking That attitude towards the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. You Sound like you're Denying it and I Too am out of this discussion.

 

[KingJ]

Even the rolled away stone itself argues against the resurrection because Jesus's resurrection body was said to be able to ignore matter - to rise to heaven on a cloud, to appear and reappear at will, and to pass through solid barriers. The tomb's stone was a solid barrier, and so Jesus ought to have been able to pass through it. That the stone was found to have been rolled away indicates an all-too-human need on the part of Jesus: 1) he couldn't pass through the stone barrier and so didn't have a resurrection body after all; 2) secret disciples unknown to the women and the disciples moved the stone and removed Jesus in order to revive him (the core thesis of the "Passover Plot"). All of which factors contra-indicate the notion of Jesus's resurrection body not being able to pass through stone.

Whether the stone was rolled away to let people in or Jesus out is a non issue for me. To me it seems respectful for God to send an angel to open it for Him. Perhaps also a clear sign to us? Jesus did many miracles as signs for us. Confirmation that He was who He said He was.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Maybe but then the soldiers would have seen and experienced the resurrection. They would have been instantly saved and become fervent believers like Thomas became when the resurrected Christ appeared to him. All of Jerusalem would have heard about that both Jew and Roman. But what Roman soldiers? Mark doesn't report any witnesses to the resurrection or Roman soldier guards. Paul and the other Epistle writers also know nothing of them, and neither do Luke, and John. Only Matthew mentions them. If Roman soldiers actually experienced the resurrection, or some miraculous agency moving the stone, this could hardly have been kept quiet - and the Gospel authors would surely have seized in it as public "proof" that somebody witnessed the resurrection. But they don't do that - they imply that the authorities forbade the soldiers to mention anything about it, the penalty for sleeping on duty being death.

Hello Victor,
So, you don't believe the Gospel accounts because they differ in certain observations?
I'd be more likely to find it questionable if they were exactly alike!!!!

Try an experiment for me. Get 10 people sitting in chairs and whisper a story to chair #1 and then have them do the same on down the line. Any guesses on what your original story would look like by chair #10? Even thought the real example is what people focus on in their lives. A better test is that you have x-people who see an accident between two cars. Ask them to describe what they have saw. Asking questions as how many people were in the vehicles, were they male or females, any children, color of vehicles etc. Nice scientific experiment you can have with this No two stories will be exactly alike, no matter the time between when it happened and when they're telling you of it. People have a tendency to focus on different things in their observation of events. It doesn't mean that any of the differing accounts are wrong, just that each person has a tendency to focus on different aspects of the event. This can be caused by any number of things. Personal backgrounds, individuals talked to etc.

I notice that you responded to a thread I also added a post to. I relayed the 4 Gospels, and how each seems to focus on different aspects of Jesus. One, as a King, another as a Servant, then Man, and finally God. Do you think this might have something to do with the accounts being described?

On the Roman soldier aspects of the story. Do some background on the Roman military, and it's laws that had to be followed. Also, what the consequences were for dereliction of duty. You think they wanted to report back to Pontius Pilate that an Angel or to them some godly manifestation prevented them from doing their duties? How about a worse scenario for them, that they were overcome by Fishermen & Tax Collectors and the Body was stolen. Even though I'm of the mind that the Jewish Disciples of the day were our equivalent of our Special Forces and the Roman Soldiers/trained killers were no match for them and by the way were unharmed except for maybe their psych. (Rolling my eyes.) Anyway, for the soldiers sake, hopefully, this experience had them come to the Lord later on.

As far as keeping it quiet............we're talking about it almost 2000 years later!!!!!!! Quiet indeed!!!! LOL

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Quantrill]

Yep he does and Paul believed that Jesus had also been raised up. But for Paul, Jesus's Passion and Resurrection took place in the lower heavens, not on earth. That is why Paul never mentions Jesus's baptism, wilderness temptation, gathering disciples, his miracles, cures and exorcisms, his sermon on the mount, his raising of Lazarus and the widow of Nain's son, or Caiaphas, Pilate, or the empty tomb etc. Rather odd would'nt you say? There was no empty tomb because Jesus's resurrection according to Paul did not take place on earth, but in the lower heavens. Paul wrote letters about Jesus CHRIST, but never mentioned Jesus of NAZARETH even once as a man who had lived a human, historical life roughly contemporaneous with Paul. Paul would have known about Jesus of Nazareth, he lived in the same time and place. The tomb was not empty because it never existed on earth in the first place, exactly as the letter to the Hebrews says, where Jesus passes directly into the heavenly Jerusalem without an intervening historical/biological resurrection.

You display your ignorance of God and the Scriptures. You stated boldly in post [HASH=2063]#(1[/HASH]) that Paul never mentioned the resurrection anywhere. I showed you that you are woefully ignorant in pointing out (Rom. 1:4) . Gee , that was real deep.

Now you come back with some more fluff, none of which is based on Scripture. And no Scripture do you give. You come denying what is written in the Scripture and give your empty opinion. And you know what they say about opinions.

Quantrill

 

[Bendito]

Without the resurrection being true Christianity would have nothing to stand upon or even to separate it from other competing religions. That is why from early days devout believers have claimed that the physical resurrection happened, as prophesied by Jesus Himself. Our Lord Jesus was the greatest miracle worker to walk on planet earth in its history; multitudes flocked to be healed and listen to great sermons from all over the land. Crowds followed him everywhere. One day he told his disciples what would happen to Him:

Matthew 16:21 “21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”

His disciples knew about it and so did His enemies because at Pilot’s trial it was brought up.

Matthew 27:63-64 “Sir,” they said, “we remember that while he was still alive that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise again.’ So give the order for the tomb to be made secure until the third day. Otherwise, his disciples may come and steal the body and tell the people that he has been raised from the dead. This last deception will be worse than the first.”

Instead, according to the Gospels, no one went to see if he would come out as he supposedly predicted. Not a single person could be bothered to do so. Rather odd don’t you think? Jesus predicted his death and resurrection, the disciples and enemies knew all about it, yet no one was there at his tomb to witness as He predicted. When the tomb was found empty they were shocked to death and fell to the ground in joy, awe and bewilderment.

Matthew 28:1 “ After the Sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb.”

They went to the tomb as myrrh bearers and to carry out their last devotions to Jesus' body by anointing his body with spices and by pouring oils over it. They expected to find his body not an empty tomb. If a famous miracle worker told you and hoards of followers that at his grave three days after his death he will raise again, surely crowds would be there to see it happen.

Mary and the women who came to the tomb afterwards would definitely have been there much earlier to see it happen. Or they and multitudes would have camped for three days at the tomb.Even though the resurrection is the key central miracle of Christianity, no one saw it happen. The Apostle Paul in Hebrews tell us that Jesus is our high priest in heaven interceding on our behalf. Yet it is implied that Jesus enters into heaven immediately via ascension without any intervening bodily resurrection. There is no bodily resurrection, an empty tomb, angels at the tomb, women at the tomb, mentioned whatsoever by Paul anywhere. Hebrews says that Jesus entered the heavenly Jerusalem and its heavenly Temple in order to function as a heavenly high priest.

Even the rolled away stone itself argues against the resurrection because Jesus's resurrection body was said to be able to ignore matter - to rise to heaven on a cloud, to appear and reappear at will, and to pass through solid barriers. The tomb's stone was a solid barrier, and so Jesus ought to have been able to pass through it. That the stone was found to have been rolled away indicates an all-too-human need on the part of Jesus: 1) he couldn't pass through the stone barrier and so didn't have a resurrection body after all; 2) secret disciples unknown to the women and the disciples moved the stone and removed Jesus in order to revive him (the core thesis of the "Passover Plot"). All of which factors contra-indicate the notion of Jesus's resurrection body not ..being able to pass through stone.

Victor....Permit me to answer only two points here. First There were witnesses there..There were at least two big, strong, fierce Roman soldiers guarding the tomb. What happened to them? I forget whether they fainted like a couple scared little girls. Actually, the power of God blew them back and they face planted. It is rather sad that none of his followers believed Him on that.

The second point. Jesus did not have His glorified body when He rose....His body was glorified when He returned to the Father. When He came back He passed through a locked door.

 

[Fragrant Grace]

Thread closed for moderation

@Victor Van Heerden I am not sure what your motives are here at Talk Jesus?
Some of your comments are off the show.

 

[Chad]

Instead, according to the Gospels, no one went to see if he would come out as he supposedly predicted. Not a single person could be bothered to do so. Rather odd don’t you think? Jesus predicted his death and resurrection, the disciples and enemies knew all about it, yet no one was there at his tomb to witness as He predicted. When the tomb was found empty they were shocked to death and fell to the ground in joy, awe and bewilderment.

So, If I understand correctly you agree about all the miracles he performed like raising the dead, casting out demons, healing the dying and sick, yet you can't agree with one specific miracle, like a physical resurrection?

Read these:

Resurrection of Jesus
Jesus' Resurrection

Whether the stone was rolled away to let people in or Jesus out is a non issue for me. To me it seems respectful for God to send an angel to open it for Him. Perhaps also a clear sign to us? Jesus did many miracles as signs for us. Confirmation that He was who He said He was.

Amen, well said.

 

[Fragrant Grace]

Greetings everyone

The thread has been reopened.

Please look at the useful links brother Chad has provided in the previous post.

 

[Christ4Ever]

@Victor Van Heerden
Hello Victor,
The curiosity of all this is that you profess to believe Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Having no reason not to believe your words. I'm wondering how you came about doing so if Scripture apparently has so many holes in it or that it's so unbelievable? At least according to you.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Dovegiven]

Oh, VVH. Moving on.

 

[B-A-C]

Jesus Appears to His Disciples
Luke 24:36; While they were telling these things, He Himself stood in their midst and *said to them, "Peace be to you."
Luke 24:37; But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit.
Luke 24:38; And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?
Luke 24:39; "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."
Luke 24:40; And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.
Luke 24:41; While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?"
Luke 24:42; They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish;
Luke 24:43; and He took it and ate it before them.

Jesus had a flesh and bone body that could eat food when He was resurrected.

John 20:16; Jesus *said to her, "Mary!" She turned and *said to Him in Hebrew, "Rabboni!" (which means, Teacher).
John 20:17; Jesus *said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"

Mary Magdalene would not have been able to "cling to" a non existant spiritual body.

John 20:25; So the other disciples were saying to him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe."
John 20:26; After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus *came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you."
John 20:27; Then He *said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."
John 20:28; Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
John 20:29; Jesus *said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

Thomas would not have been able to feel the holes in Jesus's hands and His side if Jesus wouldn't have had a physical body.

Acts 1:3; To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God.

Jesus appeared to many people for 40 days after His resurrection.

1 Jn 4:2; By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
1 Jn 4:3; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

Every Spirit that confesses Jesus was resurrected in the flesh is from God. Every Spirit that refuses to confess this is the spirit of the antichrist.

 

[Curtis]

Jesus roamed the earth for 40 days, and nights in his resurrected physical body, until he was taken up in the clouds. Jesus appeared to over five hundred people all at the same time proving he had risen from the dead!!!

1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1Co 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1Co 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.