Election (being chosen) is not salvation

[Sue D.]

Just located the verse Romans 11:26 " And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins." and then the rest of that chapter. And the verse preceding it vs 22 for context. vs 25 " For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in."

It Sounds like Israel Will come to Christ. As an entire nation. So some how/ someway, God's chosen people, Israel Will all come to Him. That That's what the 7yr tribulation period is about. At least part of it. That's when the 144, 000 Jews will be sealed and be out evangelizing the Jewish population.

Came across this while doing some reading a while back.

 

[TheWaytoGo]

A short interesting video from Dr. Michael Heiser explaining that being chosen by God is not the same as salvation.
He teaches against predestination as guaranteed salvation.
Watch and enjoy. Very informative.

God has an "Elect" under both Covenants. Not all in Israel were really Israel, and not all "who say" they are in Christ's Church, are in His Body.

I believe the 144,000 Jews in Revelation 7:4 are the Old Covenant remnant "Elect", and the 144,000 in Revelation 14:1 are the Lamb's New Covenant remnant "Elect". I'm sure the number is figurative, but the Master did say, few there would be that walk the narrow path.

God told Elijah all was not lost in Israel, that He had 7,000 (Elect) whom had not chosen other gods. And Paul said, as there was a remnant under the Old Covenant, there is still a remnant in the present day churches.

Rom 11:4 [NASB] But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.”​

5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to [God’s] gracious choice.​

7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;​

​

In Jesus Christ the law is fulfilled - every Jew can have the veil lifted, (and every Gentile can receive Him):

2Cor 3:13 ...Moses...used to put a veil over his face...​

14 ...until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.​

15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;​

16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.​

Those who live as He lived, are being conformed to His likeness by doing the Will of the Father in all things, will receive election (justification, sanctification, salvation and eternal life with Him).

Jesus wasn't just the Light, His light came from the way He lived in total obedience to God the Father (Whom no man had seen until He expressed Himself in His Son). That Spirit-filled, godly Life, was the Light that shone before men. (It's also the oil for the virgins' (Believers) lamps; some will have a little oil and be forced to turn back; some will have enough to go all the way and meet the Bridegroom for the Marriage Ceremony).​

Men can love the darkness (the world, self will) and stay there forever, or they can receive the Light (God's Perfect Will) and be one of His Elect.

John 1:4 [NASB] In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.​

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, [even] to those who believe in His name,​

Eph 1:4-5 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,​

He can choose us from the foundation of the world, He can predestinate and foreknow us, and He can also choose us any time based on the pleasure of His Will. I just desire to be one of the Elect.

 

[PloughBoy]

Why do someone always try to explain a plain letter, written by a apostle that was divinely inspired by GOD to His children, that GOD said plainly read this letter to them and to tell them to pass it on to my children who are in other cities. That is like your natural father has written you a letter and you were either blind or could not read, and you father gave the Messenger or the letter carrier instructions telling them to read it to my son or daughter. And a faithful Bearer of news, would do exactly as They were commanded and will not go beyond the wishes of the sender, and go beyond what this person Father was trying to say to HIS son or daughter. Now that is common sense to me. Now A person who takes on ignition to explain what this father is trying to say in the letter in their own words. is Bizarre.
(Col. 4).
"Greet the brothers in Laodicea, as well as Nympha and the church that meets at her house. After this letter has been read among you, make sure that it is also read in the church of the Laodiceans, and that you in turn read the letter from Laodicea. Tell Archippus: “See to it that you complete the ministry you have received in the Lord.”…

1 Thessalonians 5:27
I CHARGE you before the LORD to have this letter read to all the brothers.

2 Thessalonians 3:14
Take note of anyone who does not obey the instructions we have given in this letter. Do not associate with him, so that he may be ashamed.


English Revised Version( 1 KINGS 16)ERV.
And the king said unto him, How many times shall I adjure thee that thou speak unto me nothing but the truth in the name of the LORD?

GOD IS YOUR GUIDE! The Holy Spirit that has Been given to the "Elect of GOD' only, in which HE will dwell in them throughout eternity. Even now He is their "Advocate" that the world knows nothing of, neither does the "nominal Christians"! But only The "Elect" of GOD knows what the "Elect" of GOD truly means and it is more than words of Human being. But for the world and Nominal Christians, it only means a world of discussions , debates and nothing more!

 

[Brightfame52]

thewaytogo

I believe the 144,000 Jews in Revelation 7:4 are the Old Covenant remnant "Elect", and the 144,000 in Revelation 14:1 are the Lamb's New Covenant remnant "Elect". I'm sure the number is figurative, but the Master did say, few there would be that walk the narrow path.

I believe they both are the same , The Lambs Church the Body of Christ comprised of both OT and NT Elect !

 

[Sue D.]

How about just taking Revelation 7 for what it says -- vs 4"And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed: "

Why would the numbers be figurative?

 

[Brightfame52]

How about just taking Revelation 7 for what it says -- vs 4"And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed: "

Why would the numbers be figurative?

Why not ? Thats Gods business !

 

[TheWaytoGo]

thewaytogo



I believe they both are the same , The Lambs Church the Body of Christ comprised of both OT and NT Elect !

It is describing two distinct groups. One is selected from the 12 tribes of Israel (the Law), the others were gathered under the Lamb (grace). Why the groups are separated, I don't know, since you're right all Saints belong to Him. All of Revelation is written in the Jewish mindset, so for me many details are sometimes difficult.

(I just recently found out the 24 elders surrounding the Throne in Rev. 4:10 are the sons of Eleazar and Ithamar from 1st Chron 24:5-18.). Pretty cool.

 

[Sue D.]

@TheWaytoGo -- just looked up the passage you're talking about. 1 Chron 24:5-18 -- you might want to look back at vs 7 "So the number of them, with their brethren who were instructed in the songs of the Lord, all who were skillful, was two hundred and eighty-eight. vs 8 "And they cast lots for their duty, the small as well as the great, the teacher with the student."

I just looked that up -- the view you are referring to is an off-shoot of one of the three more commonly held views. So, where did you find your information? Just curious.

Revelation is a difficult book for Anyone to understand. We Are told that those who Do read it will be blessed for doing so.

 

[Brightfame52]

It is describing two distinct groups. One is selected from the 12 tribes of Israel (the Law), the others were gathered under the Lamb (grace). Why the groups are separated, I don't know, since you're right all Saints belong to Him. All of Revelation is written in the Jewish mindset, so for me many details are sometimes difficult.

(I just recently found out the 24 elders surrounding the Throne in Rev. 4:10 are the sons of Eleazar and Ithamar from 1st Chron 24:5-18.). Pretty cool.

Like I said, the same group !

 

[Free gift]

A short interesting video from Dr. Michael Heiser explaining that being chosen by God is not the same as salvation.
He teaches against predestination as guaranteed salvation.
Watch and enjoy. Very informative.

Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)

Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)

 

[JerryfromMass]

A short interesting video from Dr. Michael Heiser explaining that being chosen by God is not the same as salvation.
He teaches against predestination as guaranteed salvation.
Watch and enjoy. Very informative.

Regarding the "elect" as that term is used in the New Testament, whether used as elect, elected, election, or elect's, it always refers to those that are chosen or called out by God: believers, the saved, members of the ekklesia, the Body of Christ.

"Whatever may be said about the doctrine of election, it is writtne in the Word of God as with an iron pen, and there is no getting rid of it." C. H. Spurgeon.

 

[Brightfame52]

Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)

Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)

Predestination took place before the foundation of the world according to the decree of Election Eph 1:3-5


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

[B-A-C]

Predestination took place before the foundation of the world according to the decree of Election Eph 1:3-5

If we take this literally then only the church of Ephesians was predestinated.

Eph 1:1; Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:

 

[Born Again 2004]

If we take this literally then only the church of Ephesians was predestinated.

Eph 1:1; Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:

I don't understand YOUR "Literally " but I do take the "Gospel" Literally!
I take this as: Yes this was to the Church at Ephesus but I can't help but believe ,for us, that this was Paul speaking for God to the world at Large!

After all, Jesus said He didn't come into the world to condem it, but save it!

 

[Free gift]

Predestination took place before the foundation of the world according to the decree of Election Eph 1:3-5


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

It doesn't say predestination took place before the foundation of the world . Where are you reading that ?

 

[JerryfromMass]

I don't understand YOUR "Literally " but I do take the "Gospel" Literally!
I take this as: Yes this was to the Church at Ephesus but I can't help but believe ,for us, that this was Paul speaking for God to the world at Large!

After all, Jesus said He didn't come into the world to condem it, but save it!

Brother, Paul was instructed in all things by Christ himself. All of what Paul wrote was guidance for the entire ekklesia. What Paul wrote to the ekklesia at Ephesus is instructive to the ekklessia at-large. In fact, the entire Bible is instructive to the ekklesia at-large. Applications for a body of believers in one city is instructive to all believers in all the world fir all time. For example: If the ekklesia at Corinth expressed the same concern for the parousia as the ekklesia at Thessalonika, the instructions to the Thessalonians would be equally applicable to the ekklesia at Corinth, which is equally applicable to the ekklesia in every hamlet, village, town, city, state, and nation today.

 

[Born Again 2004]

It doesn't say predestination took place before the foundation of the world . Where are you reading that ?

Every thing we know; ALL that is in the Bible, was decided before the foundation of anything.

Who has a God like that but us!

 

[Free gift]

Every thing we know; ALL that is in the Bible, was decided before the foundation of anything.

Who has a God like that but us!

No verse says we were chosen to be saved before the foundation of the world .

 

[Born Again 2004]

No verse says we were chosen to be saved before the foundation of the world .

Romans 8:29
Ephesians 1:4-5
Jeremiah 1:5
Ephesians 1:11
2 Timothy 1:9
1 Peter 1:20
Revelation 13:8
Want more?

 

[JerryfromMass]

No verse says we were chosen to be saved before the foundation of the world .

What does it mean when Paul writes that WhatDoes It Mean That G

No verse says we were chosen to be saved before the foundation of the world .

What did Paul mean when he wrote that God "chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will"? Ephesians 1.