Eternal Damnation

[Untitled]

I have heard about the fire's of everlasting damnation since I was a child, and never really thought about it until I grew up. I have had many Christian's promise me that hell is real, and I don't want to go there.

Who would?

But as I got much older, I started thinking about hell and how it could exist. But I see a issue with this place (Maybe you can enlighten me on the subject)

The question is: Is their oxygen in hell?

They'd have to be, right? Otherwise where does the fire get it's fuel from. If there is oxegen, then wouldn't the fire exhaust whatever supply is there and eventually die out?

 

[Amby]

Maybe here on earth it eventually dies out but it says in,

Mark 9:48 (KJV)

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

 

[Untitled]

Maybe here on earth it eventually dies out but it says in,

Mark 9:48 (KJV)

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

If it's fire itself, it will still need oxegen.

 

[Br. Bear]

Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known My ways:
Psalm 95:10

Greetings,

one can get a little sidetracked if not too careful.

We do need to be careful, too, that we don't split hairs too much, a bit like splitting atoms. Nuclear reactions might be a little like fire but they are not fire as we normally think of fire. The sun, for example, doesn't use oxygen but 'burns' and from what folks have been able to determine so far with increased knowledge (science) it is the splitting or breaking of the hydrogen into helium, which may be why the sun tends to float? [excuse my light headed approach, please]

Likewise, next time you jump into a volcano, be a good chap and take your oxygen meter with you and let me know what the reading is. Sure, it appears to be burning hot but so does a mans passion get from time to time which is evident in all the heated conflict around the globe both in households and between nations or 'races' [to wherever they are headin' ].

One thing we do tend to do and that is often because we forget, is to think everything has to be the way we normally do or see or whatever. Take for example, the burning bush (see/read Exodus 3:2 ) where there was not really any need for oxygen [skientiffically] as the bush was not consumed - a bit like their worm dies not? or eternal ongoing without end?

For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the LORD. Isaiah 55:8
We do need to remember that God's ways are not our ways [and, it is very much the whole message here about the who, how and why of either salvation or damnation - For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God. 2Samuel 22:22 Doth not he see my ways, and count all my steps? Job 31:4

Jesus is the Way, Who has made atonement for our sin. It is a forever-thing and the covenant will not end.
If we recall back in Leviticus, the fire of the altar for the sacrifice of the transgression(s) was to never go out. (See Leviticus 6:12-13)

So, oxygen or not, we ought to be careful about getting fired up over things that don't matter and look to Him Whose eyes are like a flame of fire because His judgement is sure and eternity is a long... eternal time
And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, Who hath His eyes like unto a flame of fire, and His feet are like fine brass;
Revelation 2:18


Bless you ....><>

 

[Untitled]

Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known My ways:
Psalm 95:10

Greetings,

one can get a little sidetracked if not too careful.

We do need to be careful, too, that we don't split hairs too much, a bit like splitting atoms. Nuclear reactions might be a little like fire but they are not fire as we normally think of fire. The sun, for example, doesn't use oxygen but 'burns' and from what folks have been able to determine so far with increased knowledge (science) it is the splitting or breaking of the hydrogen into helium, which may be why the sun tends to float? [excuse my light headed approach, please]

Likewise, next time you jump into a volcano, be a good chap and take your oxygen meter with you and let me know what the reading is. Sure, it appears to be burning hot but so does a mans passion get from time to time which is evident in all the heated conflict around the globe both in households and between nations or 'races' [to wherever they are headin' ].

One thing we do tend to do and that is often because we forget, is to think everything has to be the way we normally do or see or whatever. Take for example, the burning bush (see/read Exodus 3:2 ) where there was not really any need for oxygen [skientiffically] as the bush was not consumed - a bit like their worm dies not? or eternal ongoing without end?

For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the LORD. Isaiah 55:8
We do need to remember that God's ways are not our ways [and, it is very much the whole message here about the who, how and why of either salvation or damnation - For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God. 2Samuel 22:22 Doth not he see my ways, and count all my steps? Job 31:4

Jesus is the Way, Who has made atonement for our sin. It is a forever-thing and the covenant will not end.
If we recall back in Leviticus, the fire of the altar for the sacrifice of the transgression(s) was to never go out. (See Leviticus 6:12-13)

So, oxygen or not, we ought to be careful about getting fired up over things that don't matter and look to Him Whose eyes are like a flame of fire because His judgement is sure and eternity is a long... eternal time
And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, Who hath His eyes like unto a flame of fire, and His feet are like fine brass;
Revelation 2:18


Bless you ....><>

The Bible says, fire & smoke, so you work out the math.

 

[Br. Bear]

The Bible says, fire & smoke, so you work out the math.

Yes,
By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. Revelation 9:18

I will call on the LORD, Who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies. When the waves of death compassed me, the floods of ungodly men made me afraid; the sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me; in my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried to my God: and He did hear my voice out of His temple, and my cry did enter into His ears.
Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because He was wroth.

There went up a smoke out of His nostrils, and fire out of His mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness was under His feet.

1And He rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and He was seen upon the wings of the wind. And He made darkness pavilions round about Him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies. Through the brightness before Him were coals of fire kindled.

The LORD thundered from heaven, and the most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them; lightning, and discomfited them. And the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were discovered, at the rebuking of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils. He sent from above, He took me; He drew me out of many waters; He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them that hated me: for they were too strong for me. 19They prevented me in the day of my calamity: but the LORD was my stay.

He brought me forth also into a large place: He delivered me, because He delighted in me. The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness: according to the cleanness of my hands hath He recompensed me.

For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God.
2Samuel 22:4-22


I have spread out My hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts; a people that provoketh Me to anger continually to My face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick; which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels; which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou.

These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

Behold, it is written before Me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom, Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed Me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.
Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for My servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.
Isaiah 65:2-8

 

[Untitled]

Yes,
By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. Revelation 9:18

I will call on the LORD, Who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies. When the waves of death compassed me, the floods of ungodly men made me afraid; the sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me; in my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried to my God: and He did hear my voice out of His temple, and my cry did enter into His ears.
Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because He was wroth.

There went up a smoke out of His nostrils, and fire out of His mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness was under His feet.

1And He rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and He was seen upon the wings of the wind. And He made darkness pavilions round about Him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies. Through the brightness before Him were coals of fire kindled.

The LORD thundered from heaven, and the most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them; lightning, and discomfited them. And the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were discovered, at the rebuking of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils. He sent from above, He took me; He drew me out of many waters; He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them that hated me: for they were too strong for me. 19They prevented me in the day of my calamity: but the LORD was my stay.

He brought me forth also into a large place: He delivered me, because He delighted in me. The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness: according to the cleanness of my hands hath He recompensed me.

For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God.
2Samuel 22:4-22


I have spread out My hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts; a people that provoketh Me to anger continually to My face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick; which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels; which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou.

These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

Behold, it is written before Me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom, Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed Me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.
Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for My servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.
Isaiah 65:2-8

How would you have smoke forming, without an atmosphere?

Help me out here, what am I missing?

 

[newname]

I have heard about the fire's of everlasting damnation since I was a child, and never really thought about it until I grew up. I have had many Christian's promise me that hell is real, and I don't want to go there.

Who would?

But as I got much older, I started thinking about hell and how it could exist. But I see a issue with this place (Maybe you can enlighten me on the subject)

The question is: Is their oxygen in hell?

They'd have to be, right? Otherwise where does the fire get it's fuel from. If there is oxegen, then wouldn't the fire exhaust whatever supply is there and eventually die out?

It dies out if there is no flesh anymore, but new bodies can't die. Their smoke goes up forever. I have no idea. It would be nice if they stopped to exist, but I'm afraid that's not possible. Spirits are eternal, they don't just stop existing.

 

[Untitled]

It dies out if there is no flesh anymore, but new bodies can't die. Their smoke goes up forever. I have no idea. It would be nice if they stopped to exist, but I'm afraid that's not possible. Spirits are eternal, they don't just stop existing.

I don't think you are grappling with the concept I am discussing. How are you extrapolating your facts? Don't you think you just might be giving me half handed answers, and calling it biblically sound?

No, of course not.

 

[newname]

I don't think you are grappling with the concept I am discussing. How are you extrapolating your facts? Don't you think you just might be giving me half handed answers, and calling it biblically sound?

No, of course not.

No it's just some thoughts I have about it. Biblically sound is what is in revelation, from which I may not add or take.
The sun doesn't need oxygen.

Why does the sun not run out of oxygen as it burns?

The sun does not run out of oxygen for the simple fact that it does not use oxygen to burn. The burning of the sun is not chemical combustion. It i...

wtamu.edu

 

[Br. Bear]

Psalm 11:6 Upon the wicked He shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest, this shall be the portion of their cup.

How would you have smoke forming, without an atmosphere?

Help me out here, what am I missing?

Fire and brimstone (or, alternatively, brimstone and fire) is an idiomatic expression referring to God's wrath in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) and the New Testament. In the Bible, it often appears in reference to the fate of the unfaithful. Brimstone, an archaic term synonymous with sulfur, evokes the acrid odor of sulphur dioxide given off by lightning strikes. Lightning was understood as divine punishment by many ancient religions; the association of sulphur with God's retribution is common in the Bible. The English phrase "fire and brimstone" originates in the King James Bible.
from: Fire and brimstone - Wikipedia



Greetings once more,

if one cranks the temperature up a tad, most substances will go into 'melt down' sort of change and often a by product is smoke and or gasses. Atmosphere is not needed to 'burn' things as it is the temperature that does the 'burning'. The scienterrific advances these days use such a process to do all manner of chemical changing, including the recycling of plastics [or rendering plastics 'less plastic' for disposal purposes. It's called pyrolysis.
So we might see that when God jacks the heat up as we read will happen, there will be this sort of thing going on, atmosphere or not, However, i get your point.

I have no idea if there is/will be oxygen or not. There would also have to be an abundance of brimstone.

Quickly looking at brimstone:

brimstone - an old name for sulfur
native sulfur, native sulphur
atomic number 16, sulfur, sulphur, S - an abundant tasteless odorless multivalent nonmetallic element; best known in yellow crystals; occurs in many sulphide and sulphate minerals and even in native form (especially in volcanic regions)

from: brimstone. (n.d.) WordNet 3.0, Farlex clipart collection. (2003-2008). Retrieved September 10 2019 from brimstone


theion: brimstone
Original Word: θεῖον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: theion
Phonetic Spelling: (thi'-on)
Short Definition: brimstone, sulfur
Definition: brimstone, sulfur.

from: Strong's Greek: 2303. θεῖον (theion) -- brimstone


theíon – properly, sulfur ("brimstone," i.e. smoky, burning rocks), i.e. sulphurous, named for the sulphur-smell left by lightning; (figuratively) the fire of heaven, bringing down God's judgment to display His awesome, unstoppable power.

from: copyright © 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc.

brimstone.
Probably neuter of theios (in its original sense of flashing); sulphur -- brimstone.
see GREEK theios

theios: divine
Original Word: θεῖος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: theios
Phonetic Spelling: (thi'-os)
Short Definition: divine
Definition: divine; subst: the Deity.

HELPS word-Studies
2304 theíos (an adjective, derived from 2316 /theós, "God") – divine, manifesting the characteristics of God's nature.

2304 /theíos ("divine nature") ties God's essence to His self-manifestation, permitting all people to know Him by observing His attributes.


And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come: and worship Him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Revelation 14:6-13

May I recommend reading Ezekiel 38 and Revelation 19:11 - 21:8 ?

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:7-10


The Stakes Are High
What will happen if you die
Rejecting the truth and trusting a lie?

Where will you go and what will you do
If the mouth of hell opens wide for you?
Cast into the fire that will not cease
There shall be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Everlasting torment and everlasting shame
To those who lived this life like it is one big game.
Rebels will not recover from their fatal error
An eternity awaits them full of terror.

Flee, flee from the wrath to come
You who have the gospel shunned.

Author Unknown


Bless you ....><>

 

[Untitled]

I don't see a reason here to continue discussing the question I put forward. Especially when I have taken enough of my time formulating very concise rebuttals, that never seems to move our understanding past .1

 

[Brother-Paul]

I have heard about the fire's of everlasting damnation since I was a child, and never really thought about it until I grew up. I have had many Christian's promise me that hell is real, and I don't want to go there.

Who would?

But as I got much older, I started thinking about hell and how it could exist. But I see a issue with this place (Maybe you can enlighten me on the subject)

The question is: Is their oxygen in hell?

They'd have to be, right? Otherwise where does the fire get it's fuel from. If there is oxegen, then wouldn't the fire exhaust whatever supply is there and eventually die out?

I see what you are aiming at here brother, but feel it is being looked at from an earthly prospective.

So taking what scripture says about creation and the heavens, we are told, there are three heavens
- the first the Bible refers to land or sea level to the atmosphere
- the second heaven is from earths atmosphere to Heaven, God's abode. This covers all of space.
- the third heaven is God's abode, beyond earth, beyond outer space.

Not as you refer, fire on earth requires oxygen, and there is no smoke without fire. So in the first heaven, we have oxygen, if we didn't we wouldn't be here.
But as you say, fire needs fuel, fire and fuel give off smoke as well as heat.

The above is correct but what about heaven 2, outer space?

There is no fire in outerspace, except for the SUN, but we have to ask is the sun a fire and what fuels it? Looking at scientific and astronomic explanations we have...

The sun isn't on fire. Fire is actually very rare in the solar system. It requires chemical potential energy, which happens on earth because of life. Photosynthesis uses solar energy to build things out of carbon, oxygen, nitrogen and hydrogen (and some other elements). It's these carbon chain structures that are ultimately flammable, and pretty much, only in an Oxygen atmosphere. Oxygen atmosphere is produced by the same photosynthesis.

The sun's heat comes from nuclear fusion which doesn't make smoke. Also, the nuclear fusion only happens deep the inside of the sun, the outside is just a thick blanket of molecules - mostly hydrogen. The sun also isn't transparent. The light we see from the sun is like the light we see from a red hot piece of metal or lava. Red hot metal doesn't smoke (unless you drop water on it - which is actually steam.) The sun, like red hot metal or lava, glows bright because of temperature.

Fire is actually the rapid oxidation of a combustible material. Smoke is the airborne particulates and gases that result from the combustion, or from pyrolysis.
The sun is not undergoing an oxidation reaction, so it's not producing particulates that one might refer to as smoke.

The process the sun is undergoing is nuclear fusion, where hydrogen are combined and create helium. This reaction is very energetic and releases heat, visible radiation, and other radiation along a wide swath of the electromagnetic spectrum. The reaction is self-sustaining - as long as there is fuel, the emissions of fusion reactions cause nearby fuel to react as well. No oxygen or oxidizing agent is required.

Further, the resulting helium is comparatively heavy, and the sun being a huge mass keeps both the hydrogen that is the fuel and the helium that is the product nearby - they don't leave like hot smoke does from a fire.

So there is no smoke as we might consider it - just helium gas (plasma), and even if there were it would simply drop into the sun, there is no such thing as "rising" from it as one might consider smoke does on earth-borne fires.

Even if an entire volcano worth of smoke and dust particles, like 1000000 tons, and you detonated it near the Sun's surface, it would probably go red and fall into the sun in 5 seconds.

The sun has turbulent whisps of high energy particles escaping its huge gravity, except that it's invisible and it's called solar wind. If you could see a slice of it, it might look similar to smoke on a large format.

Carbon based smoke ignites at around 400 degrees, and all other smokes decompose into atomic vapor and ion blasted by intense ionic forces at the sun's surface temperature, and some miles form the surface. If you breathed a cigarette at 1 mile from the sun, the smoke would change states into ions because the temperature would excite the molecules and atoms of smoke that they would be a plasma.

The sun weighs 333,000 times more than here... so the gravity is probably at least 10,000 times as strong at the surface of the sun.

Atmosphere is heavy, and if air is compressed 10,000 times it is closer to being a fluid than something that can handle gas.

So, the Sun doesn't have any atmosphere, because it's too liquid, it bubbles. If the sun were cold, it would perhaps have a bizarre kind of atmosphere, perhaps someone here can say what kind, perhaps only a few meters high, and perhaps 1mm. A human on a cold sun would become a puddle and sink, his bones would flatten under their own weight, to something very fine.

The temps are too high for visible molecules, and the movement is too violent for smoke, smoke can't exist in a fire, and the Sun is a kind of fire multiplied by 1000.

The question is, what molecules at all can exist at Sun temperatures? Molecules decompose in microseconds

What happens on earth does not mean it is the same in space, in the heavens outside our atmosphere, in hades or anywhere outside our atmosphere.

It is understandable, as humans, if an answer doesn't seem easy to define we look for other reasons, outside The Word and the World God created for us, rather than considering scripture. We look for reasons within our human understanding that hopefully make things make sense.

Had I not search many pages and found this information, I too would say no smoke without fire, we need fuel and oxygen.

God's ways are not our ways, they are far above us. As we see above, outside our atmosphere there is fire without smoke in the sun.

I hope this helps.

Peace be with you.

 

[Wnl]

Hi Untitled, there is a big rift in Christianity as regards Hell.
For me there is no literal fire, as God is a consuming spiritual fire.
The brimstone is Devine (to preserve).
So to conclude there will be no literal smoke and no literal fire.
It's nonsense to think God is going to burn billions of people
for billions of years and they never die, what's the point of that.
The English word Hell comes originally from Egypt and should be
interpreted Hades the grave, check a site called( what the hell is hell)
When they discuss the worm never dies and the fire doesn't go out,
it's referring to the valley of Hinton, it was a rubbish dump just outside
Jerusalem and they set it on fire.
Hope this helps, but you must study it deeper for yourself
With Love Wnl

 

[Wnl]

Hi again, Hinton should read Hinnon