Evolution

[jonoman]

I know this is always a hot topic, and I'm definitely not here to stir up trouble, but as a Christian college student, I am constantly having to defend my faith from my peers who find it absurd that anyone can claim the theory of evolution is false and the Earth is 6000 years old. After reading and talking to other Christians, professors (both Creationist and secular), and other students I began to wonder, and I wanted other Christians opinions on this. I've brought it up before and got the usual "the Bible is God's word, and God is perfect, and as such the Bible must be as well, if you don't believe it you are denying God" followed by the supporting Bible verses. I guess I'm looking for something a little deeper than that.

What I'm curious about is why do evolution, and Creationism and Christianity have to be mutually exclusive? Who am I to say that God didn't create the universe, Earth, man, and animals exactly how the scientists say it happened, setting in motion a series of events that all lead to this moment, planning each step of the way? I have complete faith in God, but to deny that evolution happened also goes against my God-given ability to reason and use logic. This logic tells me also that there is no possible way that all of this was created from nothing, and a series of random events led to all of this, so God must have created it, and for His purpose that is larger than me. I have accepted this. I guess I just don't understand why God couldn't have created everything and guided the universe through creation and evolution to man. I believe this is basically Old Earth Creationism.

Truthfully, I do not claim to know how it happened, just that we are a creation of God. The creation of the universe is not for me to understand, and who am I to say that God did or didn't possibly guide evolution or create the world 6000 years ago? To me it would seem like quite a beautiful creation if He did guide evolution. I just want to know what my Brothers and Sisters in Christ believe and have to say.

Some people tell me that I'm fitting Christianity to my own beliefs, instead of fixing my beliefs to fit Christianity, but I don't see it that way. It was actually one of the reasons I originally rejected Christianity, that what I saw around me contradicted with what I was taught growing up around me, until I asked myself the question of Who am I to say God didn't create evolution itself?

 

[David777]

I will have an attempt at this.

This is somewhat of a laymans approach.

The theory of evolution was notably pushed by a Charles Darwin in a book called "The origin of the species" It must be noted that Darwin did not push the idea of man's origin in this book. His followers did that. Also the idea of Evolution did not apparently originate with Darwin. I have heard that but I don't know the validity of it.

There are apparently two different parts to this theory
1) Survival of the fittest!
2) Transition of species, from one species to the next??

Regarding the first part, "survival of the fittest" this seems to be what can be observed in nature. Only the most cunning, strongest, fittest, etc, will survive and breed. This allows the individual to pass on these characteristics to their offspring. No problem with the first part of the theory. It is observable, with masses of supporting evidence.

It's the second part that I reject out of hand. Why? No evidence to date. It is not observable in nature. I have never seen or heard of a single case of one species changing to another species. Next, the fossil record. Does the fossil record contain a transitional species that is identifiable, and agreed upon. No it does not. Not one.

This is exactly why the theory of evolution is still a theory. It lacks even after one hundred years of research the nagging flaw in evolution. No evidence.

When you consider that Jesus, created the universe, according to Colossians 1. Also that Genesis contains a rather rapid account of creation. More importantly the Genesis account specifies that the different kinds of creatures Jesus creates belong to some type of species. This is hinted at. "According to their kind". I think this may be done for a reason.

I do not understand and probably never will, why a theory with an obvious flaw can be so popular. What am I missing?

Do not be concerned, science never will be in conflict with the Bible. But ignorance people will always be a problem.

Hope that helped. A better explanation can be found at creation science sites.

 

[jonoman]

I'm aware of the flaws of the theory, I guess its not so much evolution exactly as nobody truely knows how anything got started and it cannot be proven since nobody was there. It comes down to faith in science or faith in God, but I don't see why the two are mutually exclusive. Why couldn't God have created Earth millions of years ago and set in motion a series of events leading to here, not so much whether or not evolution as it is presently stated is correct.

 

[ctsracing]

I'm not the brightest bulb in the room, but I know enough that Evolution is about the dumbest thing I've heard. If evolution were true, one of 2 things would have occured:

1. When each species evolved, that entire species should have become extinct because it evolved into something greater.
For instance: They say that the ameba evolved into the fish, - so there should be no more amebas. Then the fish into reptiles - so there should be no more fish, etc, etc. There should only be mankind living on this planet right now.

I know, I know... they say that just some of that species evolved at each 'step', leaving some behind to remain amebas, fish, reptiles, etc.
So what they are saying is that each 'step' of evolution took place; and then all of sudden stopped? Come on!!
'The survival of the fittest'- well if that were true, then the more species that are 'competing', the faster the rate of evolution should be. Hows come I look around the world and can't find even 1 Act of evolution in progress?!!! Sure! I can see some examples of nature adapting to its environment; but that isn't the same as evolution.

2. There would be no such thing as species, because you could not categorize them. Each creature would be a little bit different than the next. A farmer could not tell the difference from a cow to a horse. An apple from a peach, A dog form a cat. They talk about finding the 'Missing link' between ape and Man - Gimme a break! We aren't just missing one single link. WE ARE MISSING EVERY SINGLE LINK in the evolution chain.

Isn't it amazing when you plant a garden; that if you plant corn, you get corn. You plant green beans; you get green beans. You plant apple trees and peach trees; you get apples and peaches repectively. Every animal has offspring according to their own species.
Gen. 1:11 "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds"
Gen. 1:12 "The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds, and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds."
Gen1:21 "...creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to its own kind"
"every winged bird according to its own kind"
Gen.1:24 "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind.
Gen.1:25 "God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to thier kinds."

Do you think God was trying to drive home a point here? :wink:

So when you 'look out across the world' and how nature operates; what do you see matching up better: the creation account by God, or evolution by Darwin?
Sorry Darwin, you lose! Open up your Bible next time!

 

[Iceman]

I know this is always a hot topic, and I'm definitely not here to stir up trouble, but as a Christian college student, I am constantly having to defend my faith from my peers who find it absurd that anyone can claim the theory of evolution is false and the Earth is 6000 years old. After reading and talking to other Christians, professors (both Creationist and secular), and other students I began to wonder, and I wanted other Christians opinions on this. I've brought it up before and got the usual "the Bible is God's word, and God is perfect, and as such the Bible must be as well, if you don't believe it you are denying God" followed by the supporting Bible verses. I guess I'm looking for something a little deeper than that.

What I'm curious about is why do evolution, and Creationism and Christianity have to be mutually exclusive? Who am I to say that God didn't create the universe, Earth, man, and animals exactly how the scientists say it happened, setting in motion a series of events that all lead to this moment, planning each step of the way? I have complete faith in God, but to deny that evolution happened also goes against my God-given ability to reason and use logic. This logic tells me also that there is no possible way that all of this was created from nothing, and a series of random events led to all of this, so God must have created it, and for His purpose that is larger than me. I have accepted this. I guess I just don't understand why God couldn't have created everything and guided the universe through creation and evolution to man. I believe this is basically Old Earth Creationism.

Truthfully, I do not claim to know how it happened, just that we are a creation of God. The creation of the universe is not for me to understand, and who am I to say that God did or didn't possibly guide evolution or create the world 6000 years ago? To me it would seem like quite a beautiful creation if He did guide evolution. I just want to know what my Brothers and Sisters in Christ believe and have to say.

Some people tell me that I'm fitting Christianity to my own beliefs, instead of fixing my beliefs to fit Christianity, but I don't see it that way. It was actually one of the reasons I originally rejected Christianity, that what I saw around me contradicted with what I was taught growing up around me, until I asked myself the question of Who am I to say God didn't create evolution itself?

There is nothing to say that Creationism and Evolution are mutually exclusive. Nor is it a case of fitting your faith into a pre-existing construct. It's actually quite the opposite.

In this case the problem you're facing is a deficient, modern hermeneutic.

But for improving your own hermeneutic.

Two case in points. The first is Philo. Philo offers us a fantastic insight into how the Scripture was read in ancient times, around the time of Jesus. And it was of course not taken literally as we do today. The purpose of Scripture was not to say much about reality, but to say something about God. So counting generations in the text to get to a creation age is a misappropriation of the function of scripture.

The second good point to raise is Augustine. Before Ussher came onto the scene, Augustine predicts and warns against that same misappropriation of scripture. It was never Christian tradition to actually use the Bible to explain the mechanics of the world. That's what science was for. Even after Ussher, he was held as nothing more than a curiosity. His method has only resurfaced relatively recently.

The early church was responsible for the modern science movement. Just to name two relevant to the subject: Paleontology was started by priests. Theology and the study of fossils went hand in hand. The big bang theory was proposed by a theologian. And even Dawkins grudgingly admits that his entire field of biology was founded by the church.

This new method of reading the Bible that is so popular in the states, and is becoming popular in other countries, only started in America a century or so ago.

It's interesting to note that Christianity and Atheism have become the same beast. Atheism has abandoned it's intellectual forebears in favour of catchy slogan and offers of freedom. Christianity has abandoned it's theological tradition in favour of simplicity and do-it-yourself Bible guides.

The thing is though you're very right to say "Who am I to know?" The thing about the early church is that this kind of debate that is so rampant today, wouldn't have gotten momentum then. The early church was focused on the Gospel and questions of how the universe started could only ever be second to that. Instead today there's almost a criteria of faith, of silly little questions such as evolution that you have to get the right answer for, or your faith is false.

Well I say no to that. Faith is only, faith in the Gospel of Jesus who was, and is, Christ. If you have that, you are fine.

 

[Iceman]

I also thought you may be interested in checking out this video. And this one too

 

[stephen]

I believe in Evolution.

I remember looking at a picture of a horse from long ago, and then looking at a horse today. It was clear both were horses but there had been chages. Thats Evolution. The adaption of a species over time to accommodate.....change.

Evolution is a pattern of change, development, but not a species change.

This is the point of debate.

Once I was a tadpole, beginning to begin.
Now I am a jumping toad with my tail tucked in.
Followed by a monkey up a banana tree
Today a Professor with a Phd.
Creeping toad, monkey, then a man
Glory be to nothin for such a planless plan


Impossible. I am a creationist.

 

[AudreyNicole]

Why couldn't God have created Earth millions of years ago and set in motion a series of events leading to here, not so much whether or not evolution as it is presently stated is correct.

Whoa! This is a cool theory... I've never even thought of that. But I've thought a lot about the creation of the universe. I just took a geology class last semester, and the prof. was very very against creationism (it was kind of uncomfortable to sit through) however, there are many points evolutionists make that are quite reasonable..... but these things didn't make me question God, they made me question how God made the universe.

Now, obviously we aren't going to know the full story until we get to heaven, but I do believe there are some hints God has left us with, and those are in the Bible. I know, I know... using the Bible in place of reason... but I try to use the reason of the Bible intermixed with the reason of science. I also do not think the two should be separated; the Lord blessed us with intelligence and logic so we ought to use it. I believe the most successful theory's and conclusions will come from using both scientific reason and Biblical reason.

That said, we know the world was made in seven days, so how could it be millions of years old as some suggest? Well, they say our lifetimes are but a blink of an eye to God, so perhaps His days are equivalent to our millennia. We also know man was created from dust, which kinda sorta agrees with science that thinks we were created from natural materials in some sort of chemical reaction. There is also evidence of a major flood in the early years of the earth's life, and that we know as the great flood of Noah's time.

I also believe in evolution. Evolution is a fact, and it is provable. Just watch a plant growing outside. That plant will naturally evolve and adapt over the course of a season in order to keep itself alive. It might grow more to one side to reach for the sun. It might keep it's body confined to stay warm in cold weather. It may stretch out it's roots to hunt for water. It is evolving. That is a mechanism that God designed in every living thing He created.

Now, the difference between this and the widely held scientific notion of evolution is pretty great, because that idea promotes some pretty drastic metamorphosis, and we know from the Bible that God's hand made every species. But I do believe that from these "original" species, different animals "evolved". Especially in today's world, there are so many millions of different animals (1,250,000 species identified)... I really don't think God created every single one of those different types at first. Could you imagine Adam sitting there naming 1 million animals? And how could Noah fit all those on the ark? I think there were original species, and from those there have evolved subspecies. Liger's! That's an example of a sub species. lol

I do think God created the world with apparent age, and I do believe He created a world that would lead to question and wonder... Because after all, if He laid out all the answers and evidence for us there would be no need for faith. SO, we must remember that the secret things are of the Lord, and continually pray for wisdom and discernment that we may understand that which He wants us to understand, and leave alone everything else. And don't let any of that atheistic jibber-jabbish fool you.... but in everything use skepticism and reason and God.

Anyway, I don't think creationism and evolution should operate on two different playing fields, because I think the only way to truth is through faith and reason.... so hopefully some day scientists and Christians will merge. But until then I'll keep applying faith to all my reason, and reason to all my faith!

 

[Johan]

I'm not a scientist, but I've read a lot about the subject for a few years now. There are lots of websites where creationist scientists explain not only why the theory of evolution is false, but also why science proves that the earth was the Biblical creation is true.

Since I don't think I'm allowed to post links to the websites I mentioned, I'll just quote articles instead. So if you've got any questions, I'll post give you an answer (articles or shorter answers that I've written myself). First, an article about why you can't combine the theory of evolution and christianity:

Why I rejected ‘theistic evolution’

by David A. DeWitt, Ph.D.
12 January 2004


Theistic evolution is a significant threat to the Christian church. It undermines the very foundation of the Christian faith and causes people to doubt the truth of Scripture.
I grew up as a theistic evolutionist. I was interested in science, and was an undergraduate biochemistry major. I believed in God and heard that he was the Creator on Sunday, but heard evolution all the other days of the week. I did what seemed the only logical thing that I think so many Christians also do, and that is to try to blend the two together. So I combined them, thinking that evolution was simply the process that God used to create, but that is so wrong. I think people make that compromise because they do not know all of the scientific evidence that calls the theory of evolution into question and they also have not been made aware of the major theological/biblical problems that it generates.

Proverbs 18:17 says: ‘The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward to question him’. Almost all we hear is ‘evolution’—in schools and universities, zoos, museums, television, movies, etc. So if we don't teach the implications of evolution and the problems associated with it in our churches, no-one will know any different. Evolution will seem right because people don't hear the evidence against it and no one questions it.

There were two things that really turned me to biblical creation instead of theistic evolution. The first were the passages that say that the word of the Lord is flawless. I came to realize that I trusted what the Bible says about salvation, that Jesus rose from the dead, that He could cure the lame, blind, mute and deaf. He turned water into wine—all in an instant. He multiplied the fishes and loaves, walked on water. I believed all of those miracles, that they happened just as they said. I trusted the Bible in all of those places, so why not also in Genesis where it says God created all things by His word in six days?
The second and most significant point is where evolution cuts to the heart of the gospel. Evolution absolutely requires death … millions of years of it, struggle for existence, survival of the fittest millions of years before man comes on the scene. In this scenario, death is not the enemy but the very means by which God created everything. But the Bible is very clear about this: the wages of sin is death. Death came into the world through Adam's sin. Therefore there was no death prior to the fall of man and therefore there could be no evolution whatsoever before that time.

If death and evolution are what God used to create (or even if He simply permitted it to reign for billions of years before sin, as ‘progressive creationists’ teach) then death is not the ‘last enemy’ (1 Corinthians 15:26), nor is it the wages of sin. And if this is the case, then what becomes of Jesus Christ, whose very purpose in coming was to break the power of death and pay the penalty for our sins? I believe this may be the most powerful argument against both theistic evolution and progressive creation, i.e. all compromise positions on Genesis.

The Bible tells us that God cares for his creation. A sparrow doesn't fall to the ground apart from the will of the Father, and yet, although our omnipotent God could call things to exist, instead he chose to use a death-driven process, a struggle for existence where the weak perish and the strong survive? This doesn't make any sense. It is inconsistent with God's character, His holiness and His love.

I see this as a variation on an old question. ‘Did God really say that He created man from the dust of the ground and not through a process of molecules to man evolution?’ is similar to what the serpent asked Eve … ‘Did God really say … ?’ The answer is, ‘Yes, God really said it.’ When we begin to question the truth of the Bible, in any part, then we are really on thin ice. The Bible stands or falls as a whole. We can't pick and choose which passages to believe and which ones to reject because on what basis can we do so? Man's fallible opinion?

I so appreciate the ministry of [biblical creationist] organizations …, because it enables Christians to find out and proclaim the truth. They really can believe their Bible even from the very first verse.

Besides the problem of death before sin, those who believe in billions of years make God far away and distant. Out of 15 billion years that the universe supposedly existed, and the 100’s of millions of light years across it is, man occupies such an insignificant amount of time in an insignificant amount of space—and how could God really care about what I do? Ahh, but if God created only 6 thousand years ago, it makes Him much, much closer and more imminent. The psalmist correctly asked … ‘When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the sun, moon and stars which you have set in place … What is man that thou art mindful of him? The son of man that you care for him?’ (Psalm 8:3–4). But God does care for us! Man occupies a unique position in all of creation because only man is created in the image of God and we reveal God’s glory in a unique way.

The universe is a vast place, but everything was created for man to have a place to live. Have you considered that on judgment day, when it is the end of man it is also the end of the universe? ‘The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare’ (2 Peter 3:10). If the end of man is the end of the universe, and the purpose of the creation is for a place for man to live, why would God have a universe for 15 billion years before man when He could make him from the beginning?

This is exactly what Jesus said in Matthew 19:4: ‘“Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female … ?’”’ Jesus emphasizes that Adam and Eve were made ‘at the beginning’. This only makes sense if He is talking about Day 6 and not after 15 billion years.

Clearly, the theory of molecules-to-man evolution is incompatible with the clear teaching of the Word of God. Therefore, theistic evolution (and its stable-mate, ‘progressive creation’) is incompatible with the Christian faith.

 

[who.memike123]

i think if you watch this video, it may explain alot of your questions.
p.s. is 2 hours long

youtube.com/watch?v=szBTl3S24MY

 

[james g]

if evolution were true, there would be living examples of it today."If the missing link has been found, why are they still looking for it?"Plants, animals and man have bodies; only animals and man have a soul; but only man has a spirit.

 

[Jacob123]

Option 1:Believing that nothing happened to nothing, which causes an explosion of nothingness, which makes a perfectly fine-tuned universe. (Big bang theory)

Option 2: Simply believing that we, and the universe around us, are intelligently designed by God.

I think I'm going with option 2.

 

[Fraction]

I also believe in evolution.

However when it comes to creation I have an opinion about it. Maybe God put evolution into motion, and then sped it up in an instant to create man? I mean, it is possible! God did in fact create science in a way, and I am sure he would have enjoyed putting an explanation to his work. Maybe God is behind a creation/evolution theory. Maybe evolution is just BLAH!!!!!! It is possible though! I mean, how can we explain the dinosaurs? I don't exactly believe that God put dinosaur bones on earth to test the christian faith lol. I don't know why they were here or their remains our still here. Maybe they were Gods pets? Awesome theory! In heaven, we all have dinosaurs!

Oops, got a little excited. Sorry! xD

 

[David777]

Dinosaurs?

Of course they existed, fossil records do not lie.

We still have a dinosaur with us today, the crocodile.

I find it interesting that 99% of the creatures that have existed are extinct. So we have not only lost nearly all dinosaurs but many other species as well.

Just when did they become extinct is a rather hot debate.

I prefer the Genesis account of Creation rather than the Evilution Theory.