Heaven after hell?

[KingJ]

'For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ:
for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth;
to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith:
as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven
against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men,
who hold the truth in unrighteousness;'
(Rom 1:16)

Hello again, @KingJ,

Paul in Romans 1:16-18 (above) when talking of the gospel of Christ, does not only say that it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes, or that it is available to the Jew (first) and to the Greek (or Gentile), or that therein is the righteousness of God revealed, but he also says why it is being proclaimed, 'for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness'. So Paul does not shy away from the fact of the wrath of God, or fail to declare it along with the means of escape.

Would you say that Paul is misrepresenting God? Of course not. He spoke the truth as God had revealed it to him. He did not seek to lessen the truth concerning the wrath of God to appease his listeners.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I would say that 1. you are misrepresenting Paul and 2. you are cherry picking a verse out of context of who God is. IE Misrepresenting all the other prophets in scripture that explained who God was to us.

Paul says ''wrath of God is revealed''. We can look at actual examples of God's wrath like Sodom and the great flood. We can look at His law and punishment on sin among the Jews.

When we ''properly'' evaluate the incidents of God's wrath the following becomes clear.

1. Those in grievous sins received a swift death. No torture (Sodom).
2. If society as a whole was ''too corrupted'' God brought change (flood). All were removed, despite their individual levels of sin.
3. Among Jews, there was differing punishments for sin. Some were burnt at the stake, some were stoned, some were excommunicated and some received lashes. Punishment matched crime.

A verse you need to consider with your annihilationist view is Rom 2:6 ''All are rewarded according to what they did''. As such capital punishment cannot be the punishment all wicked receive. In fact, your belief is upside down in that you believe the three worst sinners live on whilst the rest die.

 

[complete]

Your belief:

You believe in Annihilationism of all except three. Annihilation is not evidence of free will. ''Accept me or die'' is not free will. Free will is important to prove as 'no free will' to a highly intelligent creation such as ourselves and angels would be evil. To defend 'no free will' as evidence of something a good God Psalm 136:1 who is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17, light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5 would do, is terribly hard to impossible. Your defense for such ''cannot!!'' simply be some cherry picked scriptures.

Then picking three is partiality. In no universe, on no planet, in no thinking persons mind is partiality evidence of a good God. It does not matter if it is the devil or Hitler. Partiality is partiality and partiality is at a height of wickedness. God is impartial Acts 10:34.

Hello @KingJ,

Thank you for responding, Though it raises more questions than it answers, for you have obviously not understood what I have said on this issue.

(1) What do you mean by the words, 'all except three'? - What are the three you are talking about?
(2) Why do you raise the subject of 'free will'? - I have not used the words, 'accept me or die', nor have I introduced the subject of free will.

* Paul, in his first letter to the Thessalonians tells them in 1 Thessalonians 1:10 'And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.' He does not shy away from the fact that there is a wrath to come, while rejoicing in the fact that Jesus had delivered himself (Paul) and those to whom he spoke from it.

King J said:-
My belief:

The wicked live on in hell for all eternity. They are sold out to wickedness and will never desire true repentance. They hate God and do not want to live with Him. So He is good in that He makes a home for them and honors their free will decision to hate Him.

There is fire, darkness, weeping and gnashing of teeth. But there are also many pleasantries. Just as God explained the horrors of life outside Eden to Adam and Eve, so too is the case with all scripture on hell. God mentions the horrors, only. He did not mention all the many many many pleasantries. Same with hell. Pleasantries '''should'''' be a given when your God is the literal definition of the words ''Good, Love, Righteous, Light, Holy and Just!!''.

We have a lot of insight into the fires of hell by considering the rich man and Lazarus story by Jesus. The rich man is on fire before judgement day. Meaning fire is not punishment but rather a consequence. The rich man was in torment and not torture. Recall Oscar Pretorius's case? He was crying a lot in court. He drank many cups of water. He was not screaming and he was not asking for buckets of water.

Darkness, John 3:19 teaches us that it is a metaphor for evil.

Weeping and gnashing of teeth is from isolation according to Luke 13:28.

It seems most just go terribly wrong with ''the fire''. That is why I opened this thread The fires of hell.

* Well, KingJ, thank you for giving me your thoughts on this matter.

However, the wrath of God is just; and the second 'death' is just; and does no despite to the character of God, for He is Just and the Justifier of those who believe His word concerning His Son the Lord Jesus Christ.

* You really need to consider the references you have made to 'fire', 'darkness', 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' within the context that they come for you appear to be misapplying them, and as for the pleasantries that you speak of, I know of none!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Sue D.]

@ KingJ. -- you were misrepresenting what I believe -- no one is going to be torturing people who reject God's way of staying Out of hell / lake of fire and brimstone. They Will be in the environment Of the lake of fire and brimstone and before ending up There, they will be in Hades/ hell/ sheol whatever name a person is giving it -- the non- born- again people who have died and will die and are dying Now -- will 'wake up' in that part of Abraham's bosom. It will be just as it's described in Luke 16. The rich man who died and woke up in that environment begged for just a drop of water on his tongue to ease his suffering. And the rich man Also asked Abraham to send someone to his brothers who were living a life just like he'd been -- to warn them. And he was told that his brothers had the prophets, etc, just like he did. They Also need to come to belief just like anyone else does. And the same thing applies Today. We have God's Word to read and either believe or reject.

God's Word gives everyone all the needed information they need about what heaven will be like and what hell / lake of fire and brimstone will be like. And the way to stay Out of the one place and be able to enjoy eternity in the Other place.
Each person makes their personal decision 'here and now'. Once a person is dead, there's no way to change their mind. No escape hatch.

And as the book of Revelation tells us -- that horrible environment is only Meant for satan, the beast and the false prophet. Everyone Else has their personal choice to make. The word 'tormented' is used. Not 'tortured'. God created that environment for Only those three entities. God won't be there. God Is light -- no darkness at all. That means total / utter darkness in hell / lake of fire and brimstone.

Maybe what will Also be 'allowed' is that the people who end up there will be remembering all the times that people were sharing the Gospel unto salvation with them and they refused to listen, or laughed at it Instead of being willing to listen and to accept.

And to compare God with people like Hitler, etc. is outrageous. A person's mouth / mind needs to be 'washed out with soap and water'.

 

[Brad Huber]

If I were to take a superpowerful blowtorch and focus it on the chest of another, would that be considered torturing them?

 

[Brad Huber]

Just asking, because God sorta did that to some of the levites.

 

[Brad Huber]

Probably lots of others, but the levites came to mind.

 

[Sue D.]

If I were to take a superpowerful blowtorch and focus it on the chest of another, would that be considered torturing them?

That would depend on Why that was being done. If the other person was trapped and that was the only way to free them from certain death. Like the jaws of life at an accident scene.

Refresh my memory of the Levites. Was that when a couple of them were given directions of proper way of handling the Ark and it slipped or something?

 

[KingJ]

(1) What do you mean by the words, 'all except three'? - What are the three you are talking about?

Ok, I see it is two not three. You quoted Rev 20:10 Beast and false prophet.

(2) Why do you raise the subject of 'free will'? - I have not used the words, 'accept me or die', nor have I introduced the subject of free will.

I raise it because it is the counter argument to annihilationism. Annihilationism is a belief of ''Accept me or die''. You believe saints live on in eternal bliss and the wicked who reject Jesus die.

I have said to you before that the only way Christianity keeps face with incidents of God's ''capital punishment'' of death on all of Sodom for example, is with the teaching of a White throne judgement day when each person is rewarded and punished exactly according to what they did. That way God's wrath on the people of Sodom is seen more as Him bringing change and not being ruthless and wicked.

However, the wrath of God is just; and the second 'death' is just; and does no despite to the character of God, for He is Just and the Justifier of those who believe His word concerning His Son the Lord Jesus Christ.

There you go again.

You say ''God is just'' but DO NOT prove it. You cannot just say '''God is just''.....if you also say He kills people who reject Him....Are you trolling me or truly this ignorant? Do you believe God operates with a different code of ethics to us?

Because I wear a t-shirt that says black lives matter, I can rape someone and it will be fine?

* You really need to consider the references you have made to 'fire', 'darkness', 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' within the context that they come for you appear to be misapplying them, and as for the pleasantries that you speak of, I know of none!

Feel free to interrogate them. My belief comes from studying and debating every scripture on hell.

Luke 13:28 There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.

If you read the ''when you see'' as ''when you see'', my belief becomes clear.

 

[KingJ]

@ KingJ. -- you were misrepresenting what I believe -- no one is going to be torturing people who reject God's way of staying Out of hell / lake of fire and brimstone.

I am glad and surprised to hear you say there is no torture, I am going to flag this post from you. If I knew this I would not have written ten thousand words of replies to you.

And as the book of Revelation tells us -- that horrible environment is only Meant for satan, the beast and the false prophet. Everyone Else has their personal choice to make. The word 'tormented' is used. Not 'tortured'. God created that environment for Only those three entities. God won't be there. God Is light -- no darkness at all. That means total / utter darkness in hell / lake of fire and brimstone.

Not this again. If God has always planned to send humans to hell it was created for all. You are just showing all that you ring fence and get tunnel vision on certain scriptures.

Torment can be torture. It is important for the person defending God to properly describe the suffering that takes place.

Maybe what will Also be 'allowed' is that the people who end up there will be remembering all the times that people were sharing the Gospel unto salvation with them and they refused to listen, or laughed at it Instead of being willing to listen and to accept.

Definitely. Retaining memories is part and parcel of free will.

And to compare God with people like Hitler, etc. is outrageous. A person's mouth / mind needs to be 'washed out with soap and water'.

All Christians doing such deserve a harsher punishment.

 

[KingJ]

Just asking, because God sorta did that to some of the levites.

You need to better discern.

We see God inflict pain on 1. His people (2 Cor 11:16-33) and 2. Those who are wicked but not yet sold out to wickedness (all the plagues).

The wicked reject God's plea's to repent like the people of Sodom, receive a swift execution.

The Levites fall into the category of 'His people'. He dealt with the Jews differently to all other races. When Jonah went to Nineveh he did not introduce, death by fire, stoning, excommunication etc. He just said ''repent, your sins are grievous, God is about to destroy you all''.

All God does points to Him being a good God. He puts pain on us to make us stronger. He uses plagues as a last ditch attempt to get the wicked to repent. His absolute enemy, receives a swift removal from earth to await a just and fair judgement day where all are judged and punished exactly according to what they did.

It is so important for us to properly represent God to the lost on matters of His wrath. To be lazy and get it wrong, is an utter Christianity fail.

 

[complete]

Ok, I see it is two not three. You quoted Rev 20:10 Beast and false prophet.

I raise it because it is the counter argument to annihilationism. Annihilationism is a belief of ''Accept me or die''. You believe saints live on in eternal bliss and the wicked who reject Jesus die.

I have said to you before that the only way Christianity keeps face with incidents of God's ''capital punishment'' of death on all of Sodom for example, is with the teaching of a White throne judgement day when each person is rewarded and punished exactly according to what they did. That way God's wrath on the people of Sodom is seen more as Him bringing change and not being ruthless and wicked.

There you go again.

You say ''God is just'' but DO NOT prove it. You cannot just say '''God is just''.....if you also say He kills people who reject Him....Are you trolling me or truly this ignorant? Do you believe God operates with a different code of ethics to us?

Because I wear a t-shirt that says black lives matter, I can rape someone and it will be fine?

Feel free to interrogate them. My belief comes from studying and debating every scripture on hell.

Luke 13:28 There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.

If you read the ''when you see'' as ''when you see'', my belief becomes clear.

Hello KingJ,

Thank you again for your response.

* I am glad that you have looked up every reference to the word, 'Hell', for so have I, for that is the only way to be free of the doctrines of man, and stand on solid ground. However I looked at the verses I read, with the knowledge that the root word, that the translators chose, to translate the words, Sheol, Hades, Gehenna and Tartaroo, was the middle English word, 'Hell': which simply means' to hide away'; which is what you do with a dead body. The grave is that place of hiding, the place of the dead. The word 'Hell' has been abused and misused for centuries, and coloured by Greek philosophy, and other influences. It is only when you strip it away that you get to the truth. Sheol and Hades are translated in other ways too, and each translation needs to be considered in it's context in order to get a true understanding of what each word truly means.

* With respect to you, you ask me to produce proof that God is Just, but surely I do not have to justify God, for His word has already done it. Also, It is you who have labelled me an annihilationist, but I do not acknowledge that or any other label. My chief concern is to be true to what I read in God's word,

* In relation to your use of the words, 'weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth' in your previous post, you have quoted Luke 13::28. I will list the others:-

'And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west,
and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness:
there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
(Matthew 8:11-12)

'The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.'
(Matthew 13:41-43)

'Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
(Matthew 13:47-50)

'And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness;
there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen.'
(Matthew 22:11-14)

' The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
(Matthew 24:50-51)

'And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:'
(Matthew 25:30-31)

* These words are spoken to 'the children of the Kingdom', which are Israel: referring to the day when the Son of Man shall come in His glory; and all the holy angels with Him; and He shall sit upon the throne of His glory. That is the rule of Christ: when He will, for the first 1,000 years, with the 12 Apostles and the Overcomers of the Tribulation and of generations past, like Abraham and others so honoured, who shall be raised in the first of the two resurrections associated with that reign, sit in judgment upon Israel and the nations. Yet there will be those who will not be allowed access into that kingdom, and there will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth and darkness for them. Death, the final enemy will not have been destroyed at that time, so these will not be wailing and gnashing their teeth for eternity as you suggest. For the rest of the dead will not be raised to judgment until the 1,000 years are passed.

* I don't profess to understand the whole of end time events and their chronological order: I wish I did; .but I do know that it is important to look at what is being said, by whom, to whom, and about whom. at what time, and with what intent, in order to get a correct understanding.

* This is not a matter of your understanding or mine, is it KingJ, we must both bow before the written word, and acknowledge it's truth, and let our own understanding be subservient to it. If I am not correct in my understanding of these things God will show.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[KingJ]

Hello KingJ,

Thank you again for your response.

* I am glad that you have looked up every reference to the word, 'Hell', for so have I, for that is the only way to be free of the doctrines of man, and stand on solid ground. However I looked at the verses I read, with the knowledge that the root word, that the translators chose, to translate the words, Sheol, Hades, Gehenna and Tartaroo, was the middle English word, 'Hell': which simply means' to hide away'; which is what you do with a dead body. The grave is that place of hiding, the place of the dead. The word 'Hell' has been abused and misused for centuries, and coloured by Greek philosophy, and other influences. It is only when you strip it away that you get to the truth. Sheol and Hades are translated in other ways too, and each translation needs to be considered in it's context in order to get a true understanding of what each word truly means.

* With respect to you, you ask me to produce proof that God is Just, but surely I do not have to justify God, for His word has already done it. Also, It is you who have labelled me an annihilationist, but I do not acknowledge that or any other label. My chief concern is to be true to what I read in God's word,

* In relation to your use of the words, 'weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth' in your previous post, you have quoted Luke 13::28. I will list the others:-

'And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west,
and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness:
there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
(Matthew 8:11-12)

'The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.'
(Matthew 13:41-43)

'Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
(Matthew 13:47-50)

'And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness;
there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen.'
(Matthew 22:11-14)

' The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
(Matthew 24:50-51)

'And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:'
(Matthew 25:30-31)

* These words are spoken to 'the children of the Kingdom', which are Israel: referring to the day when the Son of Man shall come in His glory; and all the holy angels with Him; and He shall sit upon the throne of His glory. That is the rule of Christ: when He will, for the first 1,000 years, with the 12 Apostles and the Overcomers of the Tribulation and of generations past, like Abraham and others so honoured, who shall be raised in the first of the two resurrections associated with that reign, sit in judgment upon Israel and the nations. Yet there will be those who will not be allowed access into that kingdom, and there will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth and darkness for them. Death, the final enemy will not have been destroyed at that time, so these will not be wailing and gnashing their teeth for eternity as you suggest. For the rest of the dead will not be raised to judgment until the 1,000 years are passed.

* I don't profess to understand the whole of end time events and their chronological order: I wish I did; .but I do know that it is important to look at what is being said, by whom, to whom, and about whom. at what time, and with what intent, in order to get a correct understanding.

* This is not a matter of your understanding or mine, is it KingJ, we must both bow before the written word, and acknowledge it's truth, and let our own understanding be subservient to it. If I am not correct in my understanding of these things God will show.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Complete, nice to chat with someone who keeps a pleasant tone.

Why Luke 13:28 stands out is due to the fact that it gives a reason for weeping and gnashing of teeth. Note the ''when''.

There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.

Now, look closer at the verses you quoted.

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth / Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth / appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth / And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Note how they all say ''there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth'' but that no direct reason for it is provided. They separate the statement from the prior. We cannot read it as ''they are cast into fire and the fire causes the weeping and gnashing of teeth''. If we do that we are either failing at English or manipulating scripture.

Now granted, the fire, the darkness, being with hypocrites all contribute to the weeping and gnashing of teeth. I won't argue that. I am being very careful to not miss-represent the reason people weep and gnash their teeth. You see, when people realise they are separated, they weep. Because they see those in heaven, company of saints, non-hypocrites, light from righteousness and having true forgiveness of sins, it highlights the reality of their predicament. They are surrounded by wicked people. Different levels of wicked, but all wicked.

I may come across pedantic on your verses, but it is terribly important to get it right.

Many, many teach that people weep and gnash their teeth because they are being burnt alive by fire. ''Their skin is burnt off and regenerates over and over for all eternity''.

Remember, I am looking at the truth behind claims of hell being a place of wicked torture and not deserved torment. I argue heavily against fire being the same kind of literal as earthly fire. No scripture says it is.

 

[Sue D.]

If I may add a thought -- the use of the word "hell" in Scripture -- It's God's Word that He gave us in the Greek / Hebrew and some Armaic. "Greek philosophy and other influences" was mentioned regarding the use/ definition of 'hell'. We need to remember that God inspired it's writing. "We" tend to want to minimalize it.

 

[KingJ]

* I am glad that you have looked up every reference to the word, 'Hell', for so have I, for that is the only way to be free of the doctrines of man, and stand on solid ground. However I looked at the verses I read, with the knowledge that the root word, that the translators chose, to translate the words, Sheol, Hades, Gehenna and Tartaroo, was the middle English word, 'Hell': which simply means' to hide away'; which is what you do with a dead body. The grave is that place of hiding, the place of the dead. The word 'Hell' has been abused and misused for centuries, and coloured by Greek philosophy, and other influences. It is only when you strip it away that you get to the truth. Sheol and Hades are translated in other ways too, and each translation needs to be considered in it's context in order to get a true understanding of what each word truly means.

I have studied the topic and considered I would say, almost every scripture to do with it. The word for hell used is irrelevant. 'Hide away' does not support annihilationism or cruelty by God.

* With respect to you, you ask me to produce proof that God is Just, but surely I do not have to justify God, for His word has already done it. ,

I could not disagree more with the underlined.

You and I are His ambassadors. We have to properly represent Him to the lost. You can't merely say ''I quoted scripture and it is what it is''. As I have already said, the devil quoted scripture. I also assume you have never had a debate with an atheist who knows scripture.

His word needs to be understood by a Christian so that it can be wielded with skill. When you support annihilationism or as some eternal torture, I don't see much skill or knowledge of God.

Also, It is you who have labelled me an annihilationist, but I do not acknowledge that or any other label. My chief concern is to be true to what I read in God's word

If you believed in Muhammad, I would call you a Muslim, whether you liked it or not is irrelevant.

 

[complete]

Hi Complete, nice to chat with someone who keeps a pleasant tone.

Why Luke 13:28 stands out is due to the fact that it gives a reason for weeping and gnashing of teeth. Note the ''when''.

There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.

Now, look closer at the verses you quoted.

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth / Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth / appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth / And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Note how they all say ''there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth'' but that no direct reason for it is provided. They separate the statement from the prior. We cannot read it as ''they are cast into fire and the fire causes the weeping and gnashing of teeth''. If we do that we are either failing at English or manipulating scripture.

Now granted, the fire, the darkness, being with hypocrites all contribute to the weeping and gnashing of teeth. I won't argue that. I am being very careful to not miss-represent the reason people weep and gnash their teeth. You see, when people realise they are separated, they weep. Because they see those in heaven, company of saints, non-hypocrites, light from righteousness and having true forgiveness of sins, it highlights the reality of their predicament. They are surrounded by wicked people. Different levels of wicked, but all wicked.

I may come across pedantic on your verses, but it is terribly important to get it right.

Many, many teach that people weep and gnash their teeth because they are being burnt alive by fire. ''Their skin is burnt off and regenerates over and over for all eternity''.

Remember, I am looking at the truth behind claims of hell being a place of wicked torture and not deserved torment. I argue heavily against fire being the same kind of literal as earthly fire. No scripture says it is.

Hello there, @KingJ,

I am glad you feel that way about our conversations.

I agree that those weeping and gnashing their teeth are not doing so because they are being burned with fire, but because they are not able to gain entrance to the Kingdom of God. I also agree that fire can typify times of trial and adversity.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Sue D.]

@KingJ -- seems that you are the one who's had a 'thing' about torture / torment. God isn't going to be torturing anyone -- He Has prepared the lake of fire and brimstone for three 'people' -- satan, the beast and the false prophet. Everyone else has a way to stay out of that.

Punishment is not the same as torture. A teenager who's been given a set of rules to follow with punishment for disobeying those Might see the punishment As 'torture'. They might see not having access to their car or their games as being 'torture' , but it's really not. It's simple parents trying to get their attention.

 

[KingJ]

@KingJ -- seems that you are the one who's had a 'thing' about torture / torment. God isn't going to be torturing anyone -- He Has prepared the lake of fire and brimstone for three 'people' -- satan, the beast and the false prophet. Everyone else has a way to stay out of that.

Punishment is not the same as torture. A teenager who's been given a set of rules to follow with punishment for disobeying those Might see the punishment As 'torture'. They might see not having access to their car or their games as being 'torture' , but it's really not. It's simple parents trying to get their attention.

You are confusing me Sue, you now believe in anihilationism as well?

 

[Sue D.]

People who are in the lake of fire and brimstone are not going to be on fire with flesh burning. They will be in an environment of total misery.

I picture it like people being put in a bbq pit with the top closed down. Totally dark inside with hot coals all around. With no way out. The body existing in that environment Forever. People will be crying out in fear, anxiety, misery Forever.

 

[Garee]

Burning someone with actual fire for even a minute is torture. In no universe, on no planet, not among any using more then one brain cell is torture something associated with good and when it is eternal, just. Torture may be just as eye for an eye can be just. But no person has tortured others anywhere close to eternity and repaying evil with evil is not something a good God does. So, important to explain to the lost that God is both good and just.

I would offer. God does not scare people into believing rather than working his labor of love or called work of his faithfulness.. .to both will and empoer them

I would think a person would have to believe the idea of torturing for eternity before reading And not the 70 or so years God has set the standard of suffering on . The first death never to rise to new spirit life for the unbelievers no faith) . It is he fiery judgment of; “You shall not eat or you will surely die “ the letter of the law death. Its the letter of the law along with its suffering burden (dying) the second death .the death of death itself.

This shows that God is a God of mercy. Mercy triumphs against fiery judgment by grace a work of His faith. The idea of torturing a person because they only received a remnant of grace is the foundation of the purgatory doctrine. One of the wondering doctrine.

To one God gives new spirit life to the other the end of the temporal suffering of hell, the suffering in the corrupted bodies of flesh.

If he had no mercy then they would suffer forever.

 

[complete]

If I may add a thought -- the use of the word "hell" in Scripture -- It's God's Word that He gave us in the Greek / Hebrew and some Armaic. "Greek philosophy and other influences" was mentioned regarding the use/ definition of 'hell'. We need to remember that God inspired it's writing. "We" tend to want to minimalize it.

Hi @Sue D,

As you will know, the words Shoel, Hades, Gehenna and Tartaroo, are all translated 'hell'.

- Sheol is translated 'the grave' 'hell' or 'pit',
- Hades is translated 'hell' or' grave'
- Gehenna is only translated 'hell'
- Tartaroo is used only once and is translated 'hell'.

* All refer to the place of the dead, or the grave, and Gehenna though referring to the fires of end time judgment, is nevertheless the place of the dead. Tartaroo is a case apart, for it is where the angels that sinned in the time of Noah are imprisoned.

* The word 'Hell' was chosen to translate those words into English, because it means 'to hide away' so it is a perfect word to describe 'the place of the dead'..

* There is nothing wrong with the word, but it has become corrupted by misuse and abuse, and the influence of Greek philosophy and so on, and been made to mean a place of eternal conscious torment. For it was assumed that man has an immortal soul: but we know that we do not have an immortal soul, for we are told in Ezekiel that the soul (or whole person) that sinneth it shall die.

* I know this is not new to you, Sue, so forgive me for reiterating it.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris