Heaven for the very carnal "Christian?"

[Migdala]

My neighbor *Ed* said he was a Christian, but his lifestyle did not show it at all. Every other word out of his mouth was a cussword. He openly mocked God. He drank, smoked, and did a lot of drugs, fornicated, etc. He believed that Freemasons were the most godly people on earth, destined for Heaven based on their works alone.

My Christian roommate *Ann* started dating Ed, fell into fornication with him, and then fell in love with him.

A few weeks ago, Ed O.D.'d in the driveway of a friend's house, after taking some sort of drug.

Ann said that the night before Ed died, she opened her Bible to the parable of the workers who worked for the man all day, and then some other workers came in at the last minute and received the same wages.

Ann believes that the Lord is telling her that Ed is in Heaven because of this parable she opened her Bible to.

Ann has been very troubled over Ed's death-she misses him because she is in love with him. She talks about how she believes he is in Heaven a lot. I don't know what to say.

She talked to another friend of hers and told her that she believes Ed is in Heaven, because she thinks he could have "called on the Lord" at the last minute, when he was dying in the driveway. Her friend said that the Holy Spirit was "all over her" and confirmed the fact that Ed is in Heaven.

I'm real confused about this. I witnessed to Ed for the entire time I knew him, every single time we talked, but every single thing I said about Jesus, he turned it into either something sexual, or cussing, so I just avoided the guy as much as possible. He said he was a believer, but he totally rejected the Christian lifestyle, and continued to curse God, drink, do drugs, etc.....

I'm uncomfortable when Ann talks about him being in Heaven, because I don't know if I believe a person can live a life like Ed lived, and then at the last minute, do some drugs that killed him, and as he is dying, he may or may not have called on the Lord.

Even if he did, would that be "saving faith", or just faith to pray to the One who could keep him from dying? In other words, who wouldn't be calling on the Lord if they were dying? Even an atheist probably would!

But is that "saving faith" enough for a person to make it to Heaven?

I think Ann could be just trying to make herself feel better by believing that Ed is in Heaven...she keeps on and on talking about it. But I just don't know what to think, and never know how to respond when she starts talking about it, which is almost every day.

Do you think Ed could be in Heaven (or rather, will he be in Heaven on Judgment Day?). How should I respond when Ann keeps talking about how happy she is that Ed is in Heaven?

 

[strawberry]

There's a time for grieving; it's a natural thing.

Ann has been very troubled over Ed's death-she misses him because she is in love with him. She talks about how she believes he is in Heaven a lot. I don't know what to say.

We don't know where Ed is now. Have you offered to pray with her? Pray for peace and comfort.

She talked to another friend of hers and told her that she believes Ed is in Heaven, because she thinks he could have "called on the Lord" at the last minute, when he was dying in the driveway. Her friend said that the Holy Spirit was "all over her" and confirmed the fact that Ed is in Heaven.

Hmmm, the Bible doesn't say anything about the Holy Spirit telling us if someone went to heaven. I don't know.

I'm real confused about this. I witnessed to Ed for the entire time I knew him, every single time we talked, but every single thing I said about Jesus, he turned it into either something sexual, or cussing, so I just avoided the guy as much as possible. He said he was a believer, but he totally rejected the Christian lifestyle, and continued to curse God, drink, do drugs, etc.....

I'm uncomfortable when Ann talks about him being in Heaven, because I don't know if I believe a person can live a life like Ed lived, and then at the last minute, do some drugs that killed him, and as he is dying, he may or may not have called on the Lord.

I tend to agree with you there, but I would steer away from any conversations like this.

Even if he did, would that be "saving faith", or just faith to pray to the One who could keep him from dying? In other words, who wouldn't be calling on the Lord if they were dying? Even an atheist probably would!

But is that "saving faith" enough for a person to make it to Heaven?

I don't think so, but remember only God knows his heart. It's not up to us to determine Ed's fate now. It's a fruitless discussion, unless she has specific questions about her own salvation, in which case I would direct her to the appropriate scriptures in the Bible.

I think Ann could be just trying to make herself feel better by believing that Ed is in Heaven...she keeps on and on talking about it. But I just don't know what to think, and never know how to respond when she starts talking about it, which is almost every day.

Poor girl. I really think praying with her for peace will be the best approach. Also, something else you can do to help your friend that's grieving the loss of a loved one is to just listen. You don't have to say much of anything until she prompts you to. Under the circumstances, I think that would be best. What you do say, should be very brief and more in the form of questions or fond memories of the person that passed away. Questions like "is there anything you need?"

When she asks your opinion if you think Ed is in heaven, I would change the subject by saying "Do you mind if I pray with you? Let's pray." Refrain from praying for his soul or about where Ed is now; that's my two cents. You could even quote some related scriptures too that will comfort her.

Do you think Ed could be in Heaven (or rather, will he be in Heaven on Judgment Day?). How should I respond when Ann keeps talking about how happy she is that Ed is in Heaven?

Don't respond, just listen. If she gets stuck on this subject and it's bothering you, then it's okay to try to gracefully change the subject. Pray about this beforehand though and go prepared.

 

[Migdala]

Thanks for your reply. I guess this was a silly topic, because we don't know where Ed is right now....and it obviously makes Ann feel better to believe that he is. She keeps bringing up to me how the thief on the cross called out to the Lord at the last minute and was saved.

I agree what you said about the Holy Spirit would not "reveal" to us if someone was in Heaven or not-I have heard many people say "the Holy Spirit is all over me, confirming this" when asked a specific question. I know the Holy Spirit is our Comforter, but I'm unsure if He would reveal whether someone was in Heaven or not. Maybe, but not sure-nothing like that in the Bible at all.

I have prayed with her, right after Ed died. She is a lot better now, since she believes he's in Heaven. I'm really going to avoid the subject with her.....it makes me wonder if she really believes he is in Heaven or not. If she does, then why on earth bring him up, making yourself feel bad, saying "what if I had done this or that"? He won't come back to life, that's for sure.

Ok, thanks for the reply!

 

[strawberry]

Thanks for your reply. I guess this was a silly topic, because we don't know where Ed is right now....and it obviously makes Ann feel better to believe that he is. She keeps bringing up to me how the thief on the cross called out to the Lord at the last minute and was saved.

I agree what you said about the Holy Spirit would not "reveal" to us if someone was in Heaven or not-I have heard many people say "the Holy Spirit is all over me, confirming this" when asked a specific question. I know the Holy Spirit is our Comforter, but I'm unsure if He would reveal whether someone was in Heaven or not. Maybe, but not sure-nothing like that in the Bible at all.

I have prayed with her, right after Ed died. She is a lot better now, since she believes he's in Heaven. I'm really going to avoid the subject with her.....it makes me wonder if she really believes he is in Heaven or not. If she does, then why on earth bring him up, making yourself feel bad, saying "what if I had done this or that"? He won't come back to life, that's for sure.

Ok, thanks for the reply!

This thread is fine.

Putting myself in your shoes, I would also be uncomfortable with some of the things she said considering Ed's behavior. I'm curious what others think. Some Christians might tell you to be direct, tell her what the scriptures say about his behavior, and that by all indications he's in hell. I don't see the benefit in doing that unless you feel the Holy Spirit is directing you to do so because like we both agree we don't know for sure where his heart was before it stopped. Your friend is remaining hopeful he's in heaven. I think that's a good and lovely thought for her to have while she's grieving the sudden loss.

Briefly exploring the theory that Ed had a last minute change of heart and cried out to God for salvation: my thought is that if Ed's (taking the Lord's name in vain) curse words are an indication of what was in his heart, then it's safe to say he probably didn't have a relationship with God. I imagine as his brain is shutting down from drugs, he was incapable of having rational or heartfelt thoughts of God, if he was even conscious.

I thought of something else... if your friend starts to go in circles with Ed in heaven/hell, you could stop her and gently tell her to have peace and quote a scripture.

Anyway, keep trying to be patient with her. She's very blessed to have you as a friend.

 

[Migdala]

<I thought of something else... if your friend starts to go in circles with Ed in heaven/hell, you could stop her and gently tell her to have peace and quote a scripture.> Yes, that's a good idea. I've noticed that she says a lot of things are "from the Lord", or that He has spoken to her over matters that I wouldn't think He would speak about. Either she has a VERY strong relationship with Him, or she makes things up. I've only heard God speak to me maybe 5-10 times in all the time I've been saved, so I don't know what to think about someone who hears from Him constantly, every day, all the time. It must be a wonderful thing, and what else could a person possibly want in life, but that?

 

[happyharold4]

If she were that close to the Lord it seems she would have discerned Ed's needs right from the beginning as you did---She should have been pointing his sins out to him instead of joining him in them---You are being a good and patient friend here---It sounds like your discernment is right on target in these matters---So the Lord continue to strengthen you and give you a sort of older sister type of love and compassion for your friend.

Happy

 

[Migdala]

If she were that close to the Lord it seems she would have discerned Ed's needs right from the beginning as you did---She should have been pointing his sins out to him instead of joining him in them---You are being a good and patient friend here---It sounds like your discernment is right on target in these matters---So the Lord continue to strengthen you and give you a sort of older sister type of love and compassion for your friend.

Happy

Yeah, it was a horrible situation right from the start. My husband had just left me when I met Ed last year. He liked me, but I was not the least bit interested in him, or anyone-I go by Luke 16:18 when it comes to divorce/remarriage. It's a no-no.

My main focus is to be stronger in the Lord, and Ed could not understand this at all. He kept trying to get me to go out with him, and I would turn it right around to witnessing to him. Ann moved in with me, and when she met Ed, she liked him a lot and fell into sin with him.

I kept telling her that he was not saved, even though he claimed he was. I quoted Scriptures to her, telling her not to be "unequally yoked", etc. etc. I prayed and prayed for her, and worried over her like she was my kid.

Ed was not the least bit interested in her, except for occasional sex. He was trying to get rid of her. He would go a couple of weeks without calling her at all, and during that time, she was very, very strong in the Lord. But as soon as Ed called, Ann would drop everything (leaving food on the counter, right in the middle of eating) and run to him.

She told me that she believed it was a spirit of lust, because she could not "control herself" at all, but was always very repentant afterwards.

She keeps bringing up the fact that Ed liked me. I kept telling her that even if the Lord did allow me to date, I would NEVER date Ed because of his lifestyle and because he was not saved. But over and over, she would come to me saying "Ed likes you...".

Ed would tell me that they would be in bed, and she would say things like..."You really like Migdala, don't you?" I told him over and over to leave me alone, that I was not interested in him except as a neighbor and friend.

I hated it and got to where I would not answer the phone when Ed called, and I avoided my roommate. There was a lot of friction between everyone.

I could not help it if he was attracted to me, but I never once encouraged him in any way, and I told him over and over that he did not need to encourage Ann and sleep with her if he did not want a relationship with her. I gave him a Bible, and a book on Hell, and quoted every scripture I could find on fornication. He wouldn't receive it though, he kept saying that the Lord wanted to "take away all the fun things in life".

So now, Ed is dead, and Ann keeps bringing up the fact that Ed "liked" me. She did it last night, and I didn't handle it very well-I told her that Ed was dead, and why keep torturing herself? And that I was tired of it-she should move on with her life and look for a Christian man to date, rather than living in the past with a dead man.

Unfortunantly, I'm not a very "comforting" person at all. I state the facts in the Bible, tell people what is right or wrong, and that's it. I'd love to be a more comforting person, but I'm not.

I guess I don't understand living in the past. I know she's grieving, but she's not putting her focus on Jesus when she drags up "what if" over and over.

Sorry-I think I hijacked my own thread here. LOL

 

[late4dinner]

Hi Migdala,

I just want to remind you of one thing. God has placed you in that particular situation because of the skills you have. You have built up a relationship with your friend that makes it possible for you to speak into her life. Be encouraged that anyone else wouldn't be right for the job. God has chosen you.

You're doing a good job. You're thoughtfully considering your actions and words and you are striving to serve Christ by speaking the truth and loving your friend. But most of all you're being there at a time when she really needs you.

It's possible that she'll need to get her own life back on track with God, and this could take years, before God shows her the truth about Ed. Don't try and rush things. I've been off the rails myself but God has eventually brought me around. Trust in God and encourage your friend to pray to him and rely on him as much as possible and to get her life back together. If she is truly God's servant he will show her the error of her ways. God does not leave his servants to stumble in the dark without correction. Psalm 37:24
Praise God for that!!!!

 

[MelodyC]

My neighbor *Ed* said he was a Christian, but his lifestyle did not show it at all. Every other word out of his mouth was a cussword. He openly mocked God. He drank, smoked, and did a lot of drugs, fornicated, etc. He believed that Freemasons were the most godly people on earth, destined for Heaven based on their works alone.

My Christian roommate *Ann* started dating Ed, fell into fornication with him, and then fell in love with him.

A few weeks ago, Ed O.D.'d in the driveway of a friend's house, after taking some sort of drug.

Ann said that the night before Ed died, she opened her Bible to the parable of the workers who worked for the man all day, and then some other workers came in at the last minute and received the same wages.

Ann believes that the Lord is telling her that Ed is in Heaven because of this parable she opened her Bible to.

Ann has been very troubled over Ed's death-she misses him because she is in love with him. She talks about how she believes he is in Heaven a lot. I don't know what to say.

She talked to another friend of hers and told her that she believes Ed is in Heaven, because she thinks he could have "called on the Lord" at the last minute, when he was dying in the driveway. Her friend said that the Holy Spirit was "all over her" and confirmed the fact that Ed is in Heaven.

I'm real confused about this. I witnessed to Ed for the entire time I knew him, every single time we talked, but every single thing I said about Jesus, he turned it into either something sexual, or cussing, so I just avoided the guy as much as possible. He said he was a believer, but he totally rejected the Christian lifestyle, and continued to curse God, drink, do drugs, etc.....

I'm uncomfortable when Ann talks about him being in Heaven, because I don't know if I believe a person can live a life like Ed lived, and then at the last minute, do some drugs that killed him, and as he is dying, he may or may not have called on the Lord.

Even if he did, would that be "saving faith", or just faith to pray to the One who could keep him from dying? In other words, who wouldn't be calling on the Lord if they were dying? Even an atheist probably would!

But is that "saving faith" enough for a person to make it to Heaven?

I think Ann could be just trying to make herself feel better by believing that Ed is in Heaven...she keeps on and on talking about it. But I just don't know what to think, and never know how to respond when she starts talking about it, which is almost every day.

Do you think Ed could be in Heaven (or rather, will he be in Heaven on Judgment Day?). How should I respond when Ann keeps talking about how happy she is that Ed is in Heaven?

Is Ed in Heaven? Only God knows. We do not know the hearts of others and we cannot judge another person's salvation.


Maybe just say to your neighbour. That Ed is with the Lord. Actually that isn't a lie at all. You see even if you go to Hell you are still in the presence of the Lord (so technically you are with Him).

REV 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

I'm not saying that Ed is in Hell but when you read this scripture you note that in the End we are in the presence of Jesus wether in Heaven or Hell.

I'm not sure if Ann wants to hear your reasoning or doubts of Ed's salvation. She doesn't seem to be in a place to receive what you are thinking. I would try just letting her ramble on about Ed at the moment.

Pray and ask God for good conversations with Ann about salvation and His Word. We cannot go around correcting other people's thinking we can only introduce them to God's Word. Through that they may come to see that she cannot know for sure of Ed's salvation but she can know that God worked in Ed's life to bring him to repentance.


2PE 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

You know this verse would be a comfort to Ann if you get a chance to share it with her. You can share it without agreeing with her conclusion Ed is in Heaven by saying something like this: "that God is patient and wants no one to perish but works in everybody's heart until the end in the hope they will come to repentance and you believe God worked in Ed's life and heart until the end".

This is a hard situation to give advice on. However I hope I gave you some options that might help you with your neighbour's conclusions about Ed being in heaven. Hopefully in time she may let it go a bit and not talk so much about Ed as she deals with her grief in losing him.