I'm confused with this whole Armenian, Calvinist Idea

[Stylez4Christ]

I ask because I am confuse to what I believed and I read an article about Arminian and Calvinist and now I am confuse and guest that idea Arminian and Calvinist is not call for… :embarasse

Somebody please help me because the gospel is being confuse for me because what is the true gospel of Jesus. Man I say this is confusing me that is so Satan rate there and this is why I'm starting not trusting internet because I think this is a devise that can deceive my self:lightbulb

 

[Faithful Son]

No brother, you need to stop, sit down and think things out.

Did you get those ideas and doctrines here on Talk Jesus Stylez? No, you didn't brother. So you can be assured, even if some people say things that are not in the spirit of God, be sure to test it and know that it is wrong or right. Do you test it by doing it and believing it? No, you test it by praying about it and asking the Holy Spirit.

John 20:30-31 NASB
Why This Gospel Was Written
30Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;

31but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.



Be still and know that He is Lord brother Stylez. I want you to realize that the gospel of Jesus, is just that, the gospel of Jesus. It's the story about His life, death and resurrection, so that everyone can believe in Him. Jesus did thousands of miracles that weren't mentioned in the Bible, but God chose specific miracles to help people find faith in His Son.

So, my advice. Clear your mind of that garbage, Calvan or Armenian isn't Jesus Christ, they are men, they aren't God.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

The gospel is plain to understand, it teaches us to BELIEVE in Jesus.

1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.


The gospel is not something which is hard to understand by using confusing words. So now you know, the gospel of Jesus is the truth and asking God for help is always your first step to take.

Pray, be still and be at peace.

God bless
Much love
brother teraside

 

[Stylez4Christ]

Thansk for the advise you made me feel a bit better now because I know it is a man thing but no I did not got it from here but from somewhere else a different website.

 

[Faithful Son]

Okay brother, read my first post again, read the scripture, really read it and realize that God is not the author of confusion.

1 Corinthians 14:33 NASB
33for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

 

[Stylez4Christ]

Okay brother, read my first post again, read the scripture, really read it and realize that God is not the author of confusion.

1 Corinthians 14:33 NASB
33for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

Yes I know that scripture and been knowing it it just that looking 2 different theological system a bit confusing I think:embarasse

 

[Chad]

Read the Bible and don't worry about any other doctrine, any other religion, any other tradition or system of belief. The Holy Bible is what you want, all you need and prayer that the Holy Spirit guides you. From there, you learn more about Jesus Christ and by GOD's power, are granted wisdom and discernment to test the spirits.

 

[stephen]

Yes I know that scripture and been knowing it it just that looking 2 different theological system a bit confusing I think:embarasse

Hello Brother.

You are right to speak about confusion. Looking at biblical doctrine....the great expositors whom you quote, were expressing their personal revelation and understanding, after much study and prayer.

We read the thoughts of these reknown godly men, allow their wisdom to sink in to our own mind and thought, then formulate the 'kingdom of God' as we see it and desire to manifest it, and preach it, in the light of scripture.

This is one of the great delights of reading the scripture, and the thoughts of saints before, and meditation, therein. It affords a good base upon which to base our teaching.

Don't worry about the conflicting expression in such teaching. Keep your eyes, thoughts, desires upon Jesus. Be sure to get to know Him. You may be awake all night........as you desire to draw near to Him.

I recommend a book 'Heaven is so Real' by Choo Thomas, a Korean American.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Re: I'm Confused.........

Stylz: Chad has posted a link on this site to GotQuestions.org. That is a very good site for research into the kind of stuff that is confusing you. Please use that link. I believe it will help you a lot.

Also, you may have answered this before, but, do you use a study Bible? If not, get one as quickly as possible. They are of enormous help in clarifying issues.

I just checked GotQuestions.org and they have an article entitled "Calvinism vs Arminianism." All you have to do is search for "Calvinism".


SLE

 

[Stylez4Christ]

Stylz: Chad has posted a link on this site to GotQuestions.org. That is a very good site for research into the kind of stuff that is confusing you. Please use that link. I believe it will help you a lot.

Also, you may have answered this before, but, do you use a study Bible? If not, get one as quickly as possible. They are of enormous help in clarifying issues.

I just checked GotQuestions.org and they have an article entitled "Calvinism vs Arminianism." All you have to do is search for "Calvinism".


SLE

Thanks y’all for helping me out, the thing about Calvinist is that they make people have problem of having salvation in some way which they don't believed in free will but I heard that because John Calvin was a former Catholic that’s why he was overreacting on that stuff and I guest it what man believe and that is so tradition but not from God :embarasse But um I don't have a bible study but I wish but it will cost some money but I know the lord will bless me with a study bible, just that the NIV case… But I just going to get a KJV study bible

 

[willb]

Personally i am a calvinist, i have spent a lot of time researching this.....

The advice given here is good - focus first on Jesus, He is more important than doctrine which is only man trying to work things out. If you really want to learn all that stuff then i would use wiki first then google once you have read up on it.

Unless you genuinally want/need to know however you could just be wasting time, as previously stated this is not as major as Jesus, be careful not to cause yourself to stumble.

God bless

 

[Stylez4Christ]

Personally i am a calvinist, i have spent a lot of time researching this.....

The advice given here is good - focus first on Jesus, He is more important than doctrine which is only man trying to work things out. If you really want to learn all that stuff then i would use wiki first then google once you have read up on it.

Unless you genuinally want/need to know however you could just be wasting time, as previously stated this is not as major as Jesus, be careful not to cause yourself to stumble.

God bless

Oh ok well I seem to discover that I am more of a Arminian

 

[Janette]

Calvinism vs. Arminianism

Stylez,

Let me make this easy for ya:

Calvin and Arminius were men, born after the death and resurrection of Jesus and well outside the time where they could have met Him or His disciples. They aren't Prophets. The Book of Revelations isn't a cliff hanger. We know everything God has planned for us up to and including the final Redemption of mankind and creation. Therefore, there's nothing "new" to be learned from anyone, including either Calvin or Arminius. They either agree with Scripture or they don't. It's just that simple.

Both of their theologies do have some value (in so far as they serve to agree with Scripture), but being the philosophies and understandings of mortal men, both have flaws.

The Church, and any philosophy of men, is at best a creation of the Bride of Christ...not of Christ. This is why the doctrines of men can be so very dangerous -- we're not able to accurately represent the Lord, even when we quote Him exactly, because we lack His understanding of the "big picture."

Having said that, let's take a look at the main points where these philosophies differ (and what Scripture has to say on the matter).

----
God's Elect

1a) Calvin says mankind is wholly unresponsible for his Salvation...in that God chooses who will or won't be Saved, independent of any choice or belief on the part of mankind. This is called unconditional election. It locks into the idea that if God knows with 100% accuracy whether we are going to "choose" Heaven or Hell, but creates us anyway, then our fate as belonging to either Heaven or Hell is ultimately pre-determined upon our nature at Creation...and not by any "choice" on our parts. It gives us an immutable nature from which we may never escape. Some will simply Fall, because they were not created with the ability to do otherwise. Free Will is then an illusion and everything is pre-ordained.

1b) By contrast Arminianism says that becoming one of the elect is absolutely conditional. One must choose to believe that Jesus is the Christ, that He died and was raised on the third day, that His Death paid for all our sins, and that He is the Way to the Father. Most importantly, it argues that everyone has the Freedom to choose to accept God...or to choose to ignore Him.

1c) Scripture tells us

Mark 6:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

John 1:7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe.

John 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God

Luke 8:22 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

Matt 21:32 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

1d) It would seem to me, that Calvin is in error, and that mankind both has the ability to choose or not choose to believe in Christ, by Free Will, and that the choice we make to accept or deny Him and the Grace He offers us is what determines our Salvation. I would have tried to quote some passages about God coming to collect his "chosen elect," but I couldn't find any. The closest I could find was in Revelations where God comes in Glory to collect those who have chosen Him over the Antichrist.


----

Grace

2a) Calvanism holds to the idea of irresistable grace. If God wants you, then God will call you, and you cannot help but answer and be Saved.

2b) Arminianism holds to resistable grace. People don't always listen to God, even when they are absolutely sure that God is the one speaking, and God has given people the right to be that kind of stupid. Therefore, people are able to refuse to listen to and believe God even when He is offering them Grace and Eternal Life.

2c) The Scripture is chock full of people not listening to God (and it costs them dearly every time). We know people can refuse to do God's will. Therefore it only makes sense that people can and do refuse to accept Jesus. I'm sure everyone on these forums has met some stubborn person who just won't listen to reason.

There are too many to list, but you can just search for the word "listen" in an online bible and get a very solid idea of how easily man may turn away from the Lord.

Isaiah 26:10 Though grace is shown to the wicked, they do not learn righteousness; even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil and regard not the majesty of the LORD.

----

Atonement

3a) Calvinism teaches the idea of limited atonement. Christ died not for all men's sins, but only for the sins of the elect.

3b) Armenianism teaches unlimited atonement. Christ died for everyone without exception. Every man, woman, and child placed the weight of their sins on His shoulders when He was crucified. Whether or not they accept that gift of Sacrifice is another matter.

3c) Scripture uses the word "all" over and over again with respect to the sacrifice of Christ. As far back as the Abrahamic Covenant we see that "all nations" will be redeemed through that bloodline (which leads to Jesus).

Jonah 2:8 "Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs."

Isaiah 26:10 Though grace is shown to the wicked....

John 1:16 From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another.

---

Saints and Salvation

4a) Calvinism holds to the idea of the perserverence of the saints. These chosen elect will always be faithful and never waver.

4b) Arminianism holds to the idea of conditional Salvation. A man may be Saved, but then fall away from the Lord up to and including losing his Salvation.

4c) I think they both missed the mark here.

We know that even Saints can falter, so Calvinism misses the mark.
Peter denies Christ three times.
James gets angry and is rebuked by the Lord when he wants to call down fire.
Paul writes an extensive treatise in Romans of his struggles with sin.
Would you dare to say any of these three men are in Hell? Were they never really Saved? Or were they simply mortal imperfect men who slipped up?

However, we also know, from the lips of Christ Himself, that one who is truly Saved will never really be lost again (even if they falter now and then):

John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

Peter and Paul and James all amplified this by explaining that if you are truly Saved, you will act the part. You will put away your sin and walk in the Spirit to the best of your ability.

Unfortunately, screwy people who think the Bible is meant to be taken in compartmentalized lessons instead of as a unified Whole got all confused about Grace vs. Works and started a whole other argument which I won't address here.

So Arminianism missed the boat too, because if your Salvation was ever genuine and your belief complete, then you wouldn't let yourself walk back into casual intentional sin (you might slip in a moment of severe weakness, but you'd be going nuts trying to fix that weakness afterwards).

The devil cannot break a man (or woman) who is Saved, but he sure can reveal the ones who were always on shaky ground to begin with.

---

Depravity

5a) Calvinism holds to the idea of total depravity. Mankind is a being mired in sin and wholly without any ability -- at all -- to come to God of his own accord or choosing. Unless God "calls" a man to be one of His elect, man will invariably Fall.

5b) Arminianism holds to partial depravity. Mankind is tainted by sin and imperfect, but still able to have a measure of faith that would allow him to come to the Lord via choosing to believe in Jesus and accept the Grace He offers.

5c) Scripture tells us

Genesis 4:6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."

According to the Law of First Mention, this first statement about Sin in the Bible sets the tone for how we are supposed to view sin in our lives. Note that here before the giving of the law, before the coming of Christ, God tells Cain that he must master Sin.

Would God order Cain to do the impossible?
Then it must be possible for mankind, under his own power (by Grace, through Faith) to overcome sin, choose what is right, and approach (but not reach) the Lord.

Still, having said that, Calvin was right to worry that arrogant foolish men would come to believe they were overcoming sin wholly under their own power. They would decide they didn't need God and create a very moral very "enlightened" society..that was headed straight to the Devil.

.....

What this all boils down to is read your Bible, and trust God to have chosen His words carefully. If you aren't sure what a given idea in Scripture means, then pray, and read more Scripture -- but don't seek after even the most well meaning of foreign sources to answer questions about God.

Our Lord gave us all the answers we need in His Word. He isn't out to trick us, but He has allowed us the full freedom and vast responsibility that comes with the power of Choice. There is a right answer and a Way to go to be with Him and we *do* have the ability to choose that Way...or...not.

 

[willb]

I dont want to debate but i would like to go a little more in depth on election election as described above -
(eph 1)
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9making known[c] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.



11In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the guarantee[d] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,[e] to the praise of his glory.

(Acts 13)
48And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed

The calvinist view does not believe that God know who will chose Him, the view is He has chosen us. The view is that it is completely by divine grace that any soul is saved, that God chose to save that soul before the foundation of the earth (as the scriptures above say).

This is a view i believe i have posted a few of the many scriptures that say this.

This is said because in general calvinist theology focuses greatly on the soverignity of God - that He is in complete control and working things to His good.

Im not the best person to truly address this but i felt it nessisary to post a little explaining the view in light of scripture.

God bless

 

[Janette]

Hrm...

The Greek word used in those passages, proorizo, doesn't mean "predestined" in the sense of "I'm going to pick this thing in advance out of all my options and there's nothing you can do about it, and I'm not picking anything else." It means something close to "I'm going to put this thing first (but doesn't negate the opportunity for *every* other choice to follow after)...."

So if we were to line up every person created by God, one could argue that "proorizo" implied that some were being given a measure of faith large enough to place them "at the head of the line" because they would jump up and ASK to be servants of the Lord, where others would struggle. But that possible fact does nothing to cut anyone else out of an *opportunity* for Salvation.

My research into Calvinism lead me to the following URL (among other places but this was the most organized), which I have posted here with permission from Chad so you may read it.

Calvinism False Doctrines, Depravity, Election, Atonement, Irresistible Grace.

Whether or not you get too deeply into the Biblical argument regarding the correctness of Calvinist philosophy/interpretation, consider the life of Calvin himself.

I know a lot of people came to Christianity from dark or even wicked backgrounds, and I'm not expecting Calvin or anyone else to be perfect. But I found a *lot* more sites and books refuting Calvinism than I found supporting him, and I am very worried about the pattern of wrongdoing to be found historically in his life. I'm just not sure it's a good idea to trust someone who seemed to so utterly misapply Christian teachings to other areas of his life as one who is faithfully interpreting Scripture.

We must never forget the warning:

Matt 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

--

I'm not sure how to say the rest of this without sparking a debate, but here is why I believe Calvin is wrong:

Let's look at Calvin's predestination:

Bill is created by God and preordained to be "chosen elect."
Bob is created by God and preordained not to be "chosen elect".

Bill and Bob hear the words of Jesus (pretend they both lived back then) directly when He speaks in Jerusalem.

Bill believes (because he was chosen and the elect have no choice but to believe).
Bob doesn't believe (because he wasn't chosen and has no choice except not to believe).

Did Jesus save Bill?

No.

Bill was *chosen*. His belief was simply a side affect of being chosen.

Does Bob's refusal to accept Jesus condemn him?

No.

Bob was incapable of believing in Jesus because he wasn't picked by God.

Bob becomes an innocent victim sentenced to Hell because he has no way to change his nature.

Who is Jesus saving?
How can Jesus be anyone's *Savior* under a system where all of His sheep are already chosen for Him?
What about all the people like Bob?

---

Let's look at it again:

1) Given: God has created elect and non-elect.
2) Given: the elect are *going* to Heaven.
3) Given: the non-elect are *going* to Hell.

Where in the above equation do we even *need* to mention Jesus? We can put Him in there as some kind of litnus paper so that we may *recognize* the elect...but He doesn't have anything to do with saving anyone. You could argue that Jesus, as a part of the Trinity, had His hand in creating the elect, but He still isn't saving anyone.

So the whole ministry of Jesus Christ becomes invalidated because He's no longer necessary. There is no Messiah because there can't be -- everything is fixed.

--

Further, under this sytem, Calvin argued the Perserverence of the Saints. A member of the elect would never experience a "moment of doubt" and would never deny/disbelieve Christ.

Ok...

1) Given: People are preordained to be elect -- before they are born.
2) Given: The elect believe and do not doubt and never can doubt/falter.
3) Therefore, if you have ever faltered, that *should* be an indication that you are not one of the elect.

Paul started out not believing.
Peter denied Christ three times.
Thomas was a cynic and a frequent doubter....

Ask yourself honestly...have you ever doubted? Even a little...even once? Was there ever a time you didn't believe?

Then you're *not* one of the elect and you know where you are headed.

Are you *sure* you want Calvin to be correct? Not even all 12 of the apostles can get into Heaven under Calvin's laws..what hope is there for the rest of us?

 

[willb]

A Christian would never have had a moment of doubt? thats not at all a calvinist belief.

The great majority believe a person could leave following Christ but still have the Spirit within and be drawn back by God (as has happened many times). I do not know where you got that idea from but its never something i have read in calvinist theology and i have read around this area by such men as Louis Berkhof who is as traditional as a calvinsist can go.

As for the greek - (eph 1)4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

There is no mention of predestination in that passage its clear what it means without using the term, verse 5 then goes on to reiterate the above passage.

Strongs interpretation of proorizō -

From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine: - determine before, ordain, predestinate.

That to me indicates that it does mean we are chosen in advance.

(the below is copyed from a website but it useful in this discussion)

# God's sovereignty over people's hearts and lives

1. God hardens people's hearts
1. Exodus 4:21, "And the Lord said to Moses, 'When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go."
1. See also Exodus 7:3; 9:12; 10:1; 11:10; 14:4 where God hardens Pharaoh's heart.
2. Exodus 8:32, "But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go."
2. Exodus 14:17, "And as for Me, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen."
3. Deut. 2:30, "But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today."
4. 2 Chron. 25:20, "But Amaziah would not listen, for it was from God, that He might deliver them into the hand of Joash because they had sought the gods of Edom."
5. Isaiah 6:10, "Render the hearts of this people insensitive, their ears dull, and their eyes dim, lest they see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and return and be healed."
6. Rom. 9:18, "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires."

2. God softens peoples' hearts - Top
1. Deut. 29:4, "Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear."
2. Jer. 24:7, "‘And I will give them a heart to know Me, for I am the Lord; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart."

3. The Lord directs people's paths - Top
1. Jer. 10:23, “I know, O Lord, that a man’s way is not in himself; nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.”
2. Prov. 16:9, “The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.
3. Gen. 45:8, “Now, therefore, it was not you who sent me here, but God; and He has made me a father to Pharaoh and lord of all his household and ruler over all the land of Egypt.” – (Joseph in Egypt – His brothers, therefore, were not free to kill Joseph)
4. Isaiah 44:28, “It is I who says of Cyrus, ‘He is My shepherd! and he will perform all My desire.’ And he declares of Jerusalem, ‘She will be built,’ and of the temple, ‘Your foundation will be laid.’”
5. 1 Sam. 10:9, “Then it happened when he turned his back to leave Samuel, God changed his heart; and all those signs came about on that day.”
6. Prov. 21:1, “The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord. He turns it wherever He wishes.”
7. Psalm 105:24-251, "And He caused His people to be very fruitful, and made them stronger than their adversaries. 25He turned their heart to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants.
8. John 1:12-13, “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
9. Dan. 1:9, “Now God granted Daniel favor and compassion in the sight of the commander of the officials.”
10. Rev. 17:17, "For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God should be fulfilled."

4. Does God affect human choices? - Top
1. 1 Pet. 1:3, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."

# Other - Top

1. Miscellaneous Verses
1. Prov. 16:4, "The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil."
2. Rom. 9:22-23, "What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory."

2. God Foreknows - Top
1. Proginosko,
2. Acts 2:38, "this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death."
3. 1 Pet. 1:1-2, "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure."
4. 1 Pet. 1:20, "For He [Christ] was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you."
1. KJV says, "Who verily was foreordained before the .... "
2. If God looked into the future to see what choice would be made, then who did He foreknow the death of Christ? Was it simply something that God looked to see if it would happen or not? If so, then God is not sovereign.
3. If God predestines us because he looks into the future to see if we will believe, then... - Top
1. Then isn't He predestining us because He is seeing in us something that is motivating Him to save us? If our faith motivates God to save us, then it must have some merit in God's eyes, otherwise it would not motivate God to save us."
2. Then God is looking into the future in order to learn. This would violate His attribute of omniscience. In other words, if God is looking into the future to see our choices, then this means God is constrained by time (otherwise He would not have to look into the future). The truth is that God is omniscient and knows all things all the time. He does not have to look anywhere, anytime to discover anything. To say that He looks into the future to see who would pick Him and then He predestines them is to say that God essentially is learning and adapting to the knowledge He gains in His future looking.

4. Questions - Top
1. Is God's will thwarted by human free will?
2. Is God's will limited by human free will?
3. Can God fail at anything He intends to do?
1. "God does not intend to bring about everything He values, but he never fails to bring about what He intends." (John Frame)
4. Is the human will somehow independent of all other influences so as to be truly free?
5. Is the human will somehow independent of human motivations?
6. If God does not influence a person's will, so as to allow him total freedom of will, then how is it that God draws the person? In other words, the drawing of a person is an influence upon the will.
7. Does the human will have the ability to overcome various influences so as to make a neutral, objective decision?
8. If God foreknows what someone will do in the future, is that person then free to change his mind or not?
9. Is the "free-willer" using the doctrine of complete freedom of will as a paradigm into which God's character and actions must fit?

5. Logic - Top
1. God creates the person, the will of the person, and the body of the person since God is the one who forms us in the womb (Isaiah 44:2,24; Ecc. 11:5), etc.
2. Since God knows all things, a person's free will is not outside God's knowledge.
3. God puts that person in a particular place and time.

 

[Stylez4Christ]

Okay now see that what I am talking about!:embarasse
A hold nother stupid debate..

Anyways, Janette can you messages me because I want towork with this hold grammar case, but I would like to get started since school is out right now

 

[willb]

Okay now see that what I am talking about!:embarasse
A hold nother stupid debate..

Anyways, Janette can you messages me because I want towork with this hold grammar case, but I would like to get started since school is out right now

Dont worry i dont think neither me nor Janette has any plans to turn this into a argument we are both airing our views (which differ) but thats as far as it will go.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Willb and Janette,

I want to say "thank you" and "well done" for your civility in your posts in this thread. Hopefully, other people who post on Christian sites will see how you handled yourselves and spread the civility around to other forums.

SLE

 

[Ronda]

First, I would say know God and His Son Jesus Christ thoroughly!!!! Spend time studying the word yourself. Dont let it be someone else's idea but your own thoughts on the Savior you have a relationship with. Now having said that -I will paste a copy of TULIP that helps understand Calvinism
T -- total depravity. This doesn't mean people are as bad as they can be. It means that sin is in every part of one's being, including the mind and will, so that a man cannot save himself.

U -- unconditional election. God chooses to save people unconditionally; that is, they are not chosen on the basis of their own merit.

L -- limited atonement. The sacrifice of Christ on the cross was for the purpose of saving the elect.

I -- irresistible grace. When God has chosen to save someone, He will.

P -- perseverence of the saints. Those people God chooses cannot lose their salvation; they will continue to believe. If they fall away, it will be only for a time.

(The TULIP in full bloom)

TOTAL DEPRAVITY OR INABILITY (= "T" of TULIP)

The first point asserts that the entire or TOTAL human being--body and soul, intellect and will, etc.--is fallen and that everyone is born spiritually dead, helpless, and passive; indeed, everyone is worse than volitionally dead or unable to desire spiritual good but is actually enslaved to sin, positively and actively hostile to the things of the Spirit (Calvinists cite, e.g., John. 1:13; 8:43, 47; 10:26; 12:37-40; 18:37; Romans. 7:18; 8:5-8; 1 Corinthians. 2:9-14).

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION (= "U" of TULIP)

The second point inescapably follows from the first: since one is born totally depraved and enslaved to sin, one's ELECTION cannot be dependent or CONTINGENT on any spiritually worthy actions one commits. According to this point, God predestines or chooses to soften the hard, sin-enslaved hearts of certain fallen individuals and liberate them from their death not because of any merit they have but despite their demerits--i.e., He ELECTS to change their hearts (and thereby join them to Christ and His saving work) DESPITE the fact that they hate God and oppose Him and have hard hearts, not soft hearts, and have sin-enslaved wills, not free wills. Thus, believers have no reason to boast about themselves or their own actions: the only thing that differentiates them from Judas, Esau, or others who never respond in faith is that God gave them grace that He withheld from such reprobates (Calvinists cite, e.g., Ezek. 11:19-20; 36:26-27; Rom. 9:11-18; 1 Cor. 4:7; Eph. 2:8-10; cf. Jn. 1:13; 15:16; Acts 13:48; 16:14; 18:27; Phil. 2:13).



LIMITED ATONEMENT or Particular Redemption (= "L" of TULIP)

This point says that while Christ's blood--indeed, His entire life, death, and resurrection--is infinitely INTENSIVE in saving power and thus unlimited in one sense, it is not infinitely EXTENSIVE and is thus limited, not universal, in the extent of its application; for while everyone CONDITIONALLY or "provisionally" shares in Christ's life, death, and resurrection (thus, if everyone believed, everyone would be joined or married to Christ), only members of Christ's body or bride or flock (ELECT believers) actually share in His blood (Calvinists cite, e.g., Jn. 10:11, 15, 26; 17:9; cf. 6:37, 39; 17:2, 6, 24).

IRRESISTIBLE (SUFFICIENT) GRACE (= "I" of TULIP)

This is virtually a synonym for Luther's slogan "grace alone" (sola gratia) and is logically implied by points "T" and "U" above. It teaches that God's INWARD CALL is perfectly EFFECTUAL or SUFFICIENT--a hard, fleshly, sinful heart need not add anything to God's grace, such as "co-operation," for this special call or grace is invincible, overpowering all hatred and melting all opposition (Calvinists cite, e.g., Jn. 3:6-8). Here Calvinists distinguish God's inward, effectual call--i.e., IRRESISTIBLE GRACE or sufficient, effective grace--from His outward call, which is simply His commandments written on tablets of stone. The latter is eminently resistible, insufficient, and ineffective to give life to a dead soul or liberate a sin-enslaved heart (e.g., Acts 7:51; 13:39; Rom. 8:3).



PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS or Eternal Security (= "P" of TULIP)

This is not the idea that no matter what a believer does he or she cannot lose his or her salvation but the idea that " . . . He who began a good work in you will perfect it . . "( true christianity) (Phil. 1:6 [NASB]; cf., e.g., Jn. 6:37, 39; 10:28-29; Rom. 8:31-39)--i.e., the idea that whenever God creates faith in our hearts and thereby joins us to Christ and His saving work, He will sustain that faith, that saving relationship with Christ, causing us, by His grace, to persevere in faith.

Information provided by the members of the AP Euro discussion group and their contributions. September, 2001.

 

[willb]

First, I would say know God and His Son Jesus Christ thoroughly!!!! Spend time studying the word yourself. Dont let it be someone else's idea but your own thoughts on the Savior you have a relationship with. Now having said that -I will paste a copy of TULIP that helps understand Calvinism
T -- total depravity. This doesn't mean people are as bad as they can be. It means that sin is in every part of one's being, including the mind and will, so that a man cannot save himself.

U -- unconditional election. God chooses to save people unconditionally; that is, they are not chosen on the basis of their own merit.

L -- limited atonement. The sacrifice of Christ on the cross was for the purpose of saving the elect.

I -- irresistible grace. When God has chosen to save someone, He will.

P -- perseverence of the saints. Those people God chooses cannot lose their salvation; they will continue to believe. If they fall away, it will be only for a time.

(The TULIP in full bloom)

TOTAL DEPRAVITY OR INABILITY (= "T" of TULIP)

The first point asserts that the entire or TOTAL human being--body and soul, intellect and will, etc.--is fallen and that everyone is born spiritually dead, helpless, and passive; indeed, everyone is worse than volitionally dead or unable to desire spiritual good but is actually enslaved to sin, positively and actively hostile to the things of the Spirit (Calvinists cite, e.g., John. 1:13; 8:43, 47; 10:26; 12:37-40; 18:37; Romans. 7:18; 8:5-8; 1 Corinthians. 2:9-14).

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION (= "U" of TULIP)

The second point inescapably follows from the first: since one is born totally depraved and enslaved to sin, one's ELECTION cannot be dependent or CONTINGENT on any spiritually worthy actions one commits. According to this point, God predestines or chooses to soften the hard, sin-enslaved hearts of certain fallen individuals and liberate them from their death not because of any merit they have but despite their demerits--i.e., He ELECTS to change their hearts (and thereby join them to Christ and His saving work) DESPITE the fact that they hate God and oppose Him and have hard hearts, not soft hearts, and have sin-enslaved wills, not free wills. Thus, believers have no reason to boast about themselves or their own actions: the only thing that differentiates them from Judas, Esau, or others who never respond in faith is that God gave them grace that He withheld from such reprobates (Calvinists cite, e.g., Ezek. 11:19-20; 36:26-27; Rom. 9:11-18; 1 Cor. 4:7; Eph. 2:8-10; cf. Jn. 1:13; 15:16; Acts 13:48; 16:14; 18:27; Phil. 2:13).



LIMITED ATONEMENT or Particular Redemption (= "L" of TULIP)

This point says that while Christ's blood--indeed, His entire life, death, and resurrection--is infinitely INTENSIVE in saving power and thus unlimited in one sense, it is not infinitely EXTENSIVE and is thus limited, not universal, in the extent of its application; for while everyone CONDITIONALLY or "provisionally" shares in Christ's life, death, and resurrection (thus, if everyone believed, everyone would be joined or married to Christ), only members of Christ's body or bride or flock (ELECT believers) actually share in His blood (Calvinists cite, e.g., Jn. 10:11, 15, 26; 17:9; cf. 6:37, 39; 17:2, 6, 24).

IRRESISTIBLE (SUFFICIENT) GRACE (= "I" of TULIP)

This is virtually a synonym for Luther's slogan "grace alone" (sola gratia) and is logically implied by points "T" and "U" above. It teaches that God's INWARD CALL is perfectly EFFECTUAL or SUFFICIENT--a hard, fleshly, sinful heart need not add anything to God's grace, such as "co-operation," for this special call or grace is invincible, overpowering all hatred and melting all opposition (Calvinists cite, e.g., Jn. 3:6-8). Here Calvinists distinguish God's inward, effectual call--i.e., IRRESISTIBLE GRACE or sufficient, effective grace--from His outward call, which is simply His commandments written on tablets of stone. The latter is eminently resistible, insufficient, and ineffective to give life to a dead soul or liberate a sin-enslaved heart (e.g., Acts 7:51; 13:39; Rom. 8:3).



PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS or Eternal Security (= "P" of TULIP)

This is not the idea that no matter what a believer does he or she cannot lose his or her salvation but the idea that " . . . He who began a good work in you will perfect it . . "( true christianity) (Phil. 1:6 [NASB]; cf., e.g., Jn. 6:37, 39; 10:28-29; Rom. 8:31-39)--i.e., the idea that whenever God creates faith in our hearts and thereby joins us to Christ and His saving work, He will sustain that faith, that saving relationship with Christ, causing us, by His grace, to persevere in faith.

Thanks for that i agree with what is said there and you have put it in a clear and informative way (which i was struggling to do).