immunisation
- Thread starter amanda123
- Start date
Peace Seeker
Member
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- Nov 7, 2011
- Messages
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I see nowhere in scripture that says you must vaccinate your child, nor do I feel it is unChristian not to. You should listen to your husband, he is right on this. A LOT of people don't want to believe the truth about vaccinations, preferring instead to trust the corrupt rulers of darkness that do not have our best interests at heart. In fact, they want to harm us and have actively being doing so for a long time! So I will briefly tell you the truth about vaccines, I hope you will do some of your own research.
vaccines typically contain many of the following fillers :
* aluminum hydroxide
* aluminum phosphate
* ammonium sulfate
* amphotericin B
* animal tissues: pig blood, horse blood, rabbit brain,
* dog kidney, monkey kidney,
* chick embryo, chicken egg, duck egg
* calf (bovine) serum
* betapropiolactone
* fetal bovine serum
* formaldehyde
* formalin
* gelatin
* glycerol
* human diploid cells (originating from human aborted fetal tissue)
* mercury thimerosol (thimerosal, Merthiolate
* mono-sodium glutamate (MSG)
* hydrolyzed gelatin
* neomycin
* neomycin sulfate
* phenol red indicator
* phenoxyethanol (antifreeze)
* potassium diphosphate
* potassium monophosphate
* polymyxin B
* polysorbate 20
* polysorbate 80
* porcine (pig) pancreatic hydrolysate of casein
* residual MRC5 proteins
* sorbitol
* tri(n)butylphosphate,
* VERO cells, a continuous line of monkey kidney cells, and
* washed sheep red blood
Some vaccines have been found to have been contaminated with Simian Virus 40 (SV 40) which is linked by some researchers to non-Hodgkins lymphoma and mesotheliomas in humans as well as in experimental animals.
Here are ten questions vaccine-pushing doctors and health authorities absolutely refuse to answer:
#1) Where are the randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled studies proving flu vaccines are both safe and effective?
Answer: There aren’t any.
#2) Where, then, is the so-called “science” backing the idea that flu vaccines work at all?
Answer: Other than “cohort studies,” there isn’t any. And the cohort studies have been thoroughly debunked. Scientifically speaking, there isn’t a scrap of honest evidence showing flu vaccines work at all.
#3) How can methyl mercury (Thimerosal, a preservative used in flu vaccines) be safe for injecting into the human body when mercury is an extremely toxic heavy metal?
Answer: It isn’t safe at all. Methyl mercury is a poison. Along with vaccine adjuvants, it explains why so many people suffer autism or other debilitating neurological side effects after being vaccinated.
#4) Why do reports keep surfacing of children and teens suffering debilitating neurological disorders, brain swelling, seizures and even death following flu vaccines or HPV vaccines?
Answer: Because vaccines are dangerous. The vaccine industry routinely dismisses all such accounts — no matter how many are reported — as “coincidence.”
#5) Why don’t doctors recommend vitamin D for flu protection, especially when vitamin D activates the immune response far better than a vaccine?
Answer: Because vitamin D can’t be patented and sold as “medicine.” You can make it yourself. If you want more vitamin D, you don’t even need a doctor, and doctors tend not to recommend things that put them out of business.
#6) If human beings need flu vaccines to survive, then how did humans survive through all of Earth’s history?
Answer: Human genetic code is already wired to automatically defend you against invading microorganisms (as long as you have vitamin D).
#7) If the flu vaccine offers protection against the flu, then why are the people who often catch the flu the very same people who were vaccinated against it?
Answer: Because those most vulnerable to influenza infections are the very same people who have a poor adaptive response to the vaccines and don’t build antibodies. In other words flu vaccines only “work” on people who don’t need them. (And even building antibodies doesn’t equate to real-world protection from the flu, by the way.)
#8) If the flu vaccine really works, then why was there no huge increase in flu death rates in 2004, the year when flu vaccines were in short supply and vaccination rates dropped by 40%?
Answer: There was no change in the death rate. You could drop vaccination rates to zero percent and you’d still see no change in the number of people dying from the flu. That’s because flu vaccines simply don’t work.
#9) How can flu vaccines reduce mortality by 50% (as is claimed) when only about 10% of winter deaths are related to the flu in the first place?
They can’t. The 50% statistic is an example of quack medical marketing. If I have a room full of 100 people, then I take the 50 healthiest people and hand them a candy bar, I can’t then scientifically claim that “candy bars make people healthy.” That’s essentially the same logic behind the “50% reduction in mortality” claim of flu vaccines.
#10) If flu vaccines work so well, then why are drug makers and health authorities so reluctant to subject them to scientific scrutiny with randomized, placebo-controlled studies?
Answer: Although they claim such studies would be “unethical,” what’s far more unethical is to keep injecting hundreds of millions of people every year with useless, harmful vaccines that aren’t backed by a shred of honest evidence.
Big Pharma is big business, multi-billions of dollars of big profits. And if they made us all healthy they would be OUT of business. Fear breeds profit, BIG PROFIT, so they try to scare us into believing we need their tainted and side-effect-laced drugs.
Hope this helps!
vaccines typically contain many of the following fillers :
* aluminum hydroxide
* aluminum phosphate
* ammonium sulfate
* amphotericin B
* animal tissues: pig blood, horse blood, rabbit brain,
* dog kidney, monkey kidney,
* chick embryo, chicken egg, duck egg
* calf (bovine) serum
* betapropiolactone
* fetal bovine serum
* formaldehyde
* formalin
* gelatin
* glycerol
* human diploid cells (originating from human aborted fetal tissue)
* mercury thimerosol (thimerosal, Merthiolate
* mono-sodium glutamate (MSG)
* hydrolyzed gelatin
* neomycin
* neomycin sulfate
* phenol red indicator
* phenoxyethanol (antifreeze)
* potassium diphosphate
* potassium monophosphate
* polymyxin B
* polysorbate 20
* polysorbate 80
* porcine (pig) pancreatic hydrolysate of casein
* residual MRC5 proteins
* sorbitol
* tri(n)butylphosphate,
* VERO cells, a continuous line of monkey kidney cells, and
* washed sheep red blood
Some vaccines have been found to have been contaminated with Simian Virus 40 (SV 40) which is linked by some researchers to non-Hodgkins lymphoma and mesotheliomas in humans as well as in experimental animals.
Here are ten questions vaccine-pushing doctors and health authorities absolutely refuse to answer:
#1) Where are the randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled studies proving flu vaccines are both safe and effective?
Answer: There aren’t any.
#2) Where, then, is the so-called “science” backing the idea that flu vaccines work at all?
Answer: Other than “cohort studies,” there isn’t any. And the cohort studies have been thoroughly debunked. Scientifically speaking, there isn’t a scrap of honest evidence showing flu vaccines work at all.
#3) How can methyl mercury (Thimerosal, a preservative used in flu vaccines) be safe for injecting into the human body when mercury is an extremely toxic heavy metal?
Answer: It isn’t safe at all. Methyl mercury is a poison. Along with vaccine adjuvants, it explains why so many people suffer autism or other debilitating neurological side effects after being vaccinated.
#4) Why do reports keep surfacing of children and teens suffering debilitating neurological disorders, brain swelling, seizures and even death following flu vaccines or HPV vaccines?
Answer: Because vaccines are dangerous. The vaccine industry routinely dismisses all such accounts — no matter how many are reported — as “coincidence.”
#5) Why don’t doctors recommend vitamin D for flu protection, especially when vitamin D activates the immune response far better than a vaccine?
Answer: Because vitamin D can’t be patented and sold as “medicine.” You can make it yourself. If you want more vitamin D, you don’t even need a doctor, and doctors tend not to recommend things that put them out of business.
#6) If human beings need flu vaccines to survive, then how did humans survive through all of Earth’s history?
Answer: Human genetic code is already wired to automatically defend you against invading microorganisms (as long as you have vitamin D).
#7) If the flu vaccine offers protection against the flu, then why are the people who often catch the flu the very same people who were vaccinated against it?
Answer: Because those most vulnerable to influenza infections are the very same people who have a poor adaptive response to the vaccines and don’t build antibodies. In other words flu vaccines only “work” on people who don’t need them. (And even building antibodies doesn’t equate to real-world protection from the flu, by the way.)
#8) If the flu vaccine really works, then why was there no huge increase in flu death rates in 2004, the year when flu vaccines were in short supply and vaccination rates dropped by 40%?
Answer: There was no change in the death rate. You could drop vaccination rates to zero percent and you’d still see no change in the number of people dying from the flu. That’s because flu vaccines simply don’t work.
#9) How can flu vaccines reduce mortality by 50% (as is claimed) when only about 10% of winter deaths are related to the flu in the first place?
They can’t. The 50% statistic is an example of quack medical marketing. If I have a room full of 100 people, then I take the 50 healthiest people and hand them a candy bar, I can’t then scientifically claim that “candy bars make people healthy.” That’s essentially the same logic behind the “50% reduction in mortality” claim of flu vaccines.
#10) If flu vaccines work so well, then why are drug makers and health authorities so reluctant to subject them to scientific scrutiny with randomized, placebo-controlled studies?
Answer: Although they claim such studies would be “unethical,” what’s far more unethical is to keep injecting hundreds of millions of people every year with useless, harmful vaccines that aren’t backed by a shred of honest evidence.
Big Pharma is big business, multi-billions of dollars of big profits. And if they made us all healthy they would be OUT of business. Fear breeds profit, BIG PROFIT, so they try to scare us into believing we need their tainted and side-effect-laced drugs.
Hope this helps!
Brother Mike
Member
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2008
- Messages
- 1,335
Vaccines
However............................ For our kids to go to school, or participate in certain programs, we have to get them vaccinated.
I believe it's the will of God to heal, seen it almost every week.
people us "Faith" when really they are in fear to go to the Doctor and hear the news, or fear in what a Vaccine may do to a child. This is not faith in God.
Your Husband is the Head though, and spiritual leader, best to listen to him and trust God. Pray that he hears God, and makes the right choices for his family.
Jesus Is Lord.
I speak the Word over my own kids, and my wife and I know sickness or disease do not belong to us.
However............................ For our kids to go to school, or participate in certain programs, we have to get them vaccinated.
I believe it's the will of God to heal, seen it almost every week.
people us "Faith" when really they are in fear to go to the Doctor and hear the news, or fear in what a Vaccine may do to a child. This is not faith in God.
Your Husband is the Head though, and spiritual leader, best to listen to him and trust God. Pray that he hears God, and makes the right choices for his family.
Jesus Is Lord.
well, folks you can go overboard and to the extreme about anything. My husband (died some years ago) - his ex-wife was determined not to get the two boys immunizations - one developed polio and the other muscular dystrophy. I say with respect - you all sound as irresponsible as she was, I pray nothing happens to your kids.
Nothing biblical about vaccines.
It would be nonsense to not get immunisation. It could very well save the life of your child. This issue needs to be pressed.
This has nothing to do with your faith either. Tell him to provide biblical proof. Bet he can't...
Lol, conspiracy theory about medicine.
It is sensible for you to ask this question, I have two sons and I am having another baby so I know what it is to care for young children and deal with the vaccination schedule.
I'm sorry this post is so long, it's hard to answer a complex question well in few words.
The way I see it there are three issues here:
-Vaccines? Safe or not?
-Getting vaccinated? Biblical or not?
-Relating to your husband? Submit or not?
And good news for you I am about to make it a whole lot more complicated!! Yay
-Vaccines:
It's not a case of safe and unsafe blanket rule. You need to evaluate each vaccine on it's risks, benefits, alternatives and consequences of opting out. Each vaccine has different risks, benefits, alternatives and consequences, no two are completely alike, each need to be evaluated on their own. It is impossible to say all vaccines are safe, it is impossible to say all vaccines are unsafe.
It is hard to get reasonable answers about this because the anti vaccination supporters and the pro vaccination supporters both make such emotional arguments, both sides mud sling, both sides have engaged in very poor tactics to get their point across.
-Getting vacinated:
It's neither written for or against in the bible, so we need to apply general biblical principles. Seeking the aid of physicians is not written against anywhere in the bible. God is a healing and protecting God. Anything that is done out of faith is good in God's eyes, anything done not out of faith doesn't measure up. It is okay to seek the help of doctors or vaccination while having your faith solidly in God. It is not okay to put your faith in the doctors or the vaccinations. It's okay to have faith that God will heal or protect you. But when Jesus was tempted by Satan to throw himself off the temple cause Satan said the angels would protect him Jesus answered "do not tempt the Lord your God". It is up to you whether you would regard rejecting medical protection from disease, while keeping your faith in God not medicine, as tempting God.
-Relating to your husband:
You submit to him, he loves you as Christ loves the church and lays down his life for you. God is above him, if he disobeys God, you disobey him and obey God. If you simply disagree with him you obey him. You can share the truth with him and be a witness and testimony to him through your words but more effectively through the way you live your life.
Now as for the claims made against vaccinations, they are numerous and varied. The important things to know are:
-Vaccination is not compulsory:
In Australia you can apply for conscientious objector status, I don't know if this is possible where you live, but it means they can go to school and participate in the programs that vaccinated kids attend. Conscientious objection status just makes it clear to people who run the programs and care, that you are not lazy, you have made a decision not to vaccinate.
-Credible pro vaccine supporters defend credibly:
There are quite a number of obvious facts left out of the list of "ten questions vaccine-pushing doctors and health authorities absolutely refuse to answer" (this list is ONLY discussing the flu vaccine) some of the questions have been answered but anti vaccine supporters do not accept the answers (you should look into the answers yourself and decide if you find them acceptable).
-Diseases are dangerous:
This should be a no brainer but for some reason it's one of the points of debate. For the diseases which vaccinations are available, many are legitimately bad diseases, some people say "I had chickenpox and it didn't kill me" but while chickenpox doesn't seriously affect everyone who contracts it it still can seriously affect anyone who contracts it
-It's important to fully understand 'herd immunity':
The reason that many of these diseases for which vaccinations are available are not prominent today is because of the vaccinations, in a community where say 98% of the people receive the vaccination slightly less than that percentage of people will actually receive immunity (cause yes, in some individuals vaccination does not produce immunity) the other pretend 2% are people like newborns who haven't been vaccinated yet or people with immune or other serious health disorders - it is the immunity of the group, the willingness of strangers to subject themselves to vaccination that protects these others in the community who are temporarily or permanently unable to get vaccinated and therefore at risk. Also the immune group is protecting those among them that received the vaccination but didn't receive immunity
-Vaccines are not above the law:
There are a handful of examples of where vaccinations were shown quickly after their release to be unsafe and were retracted until they became safe, also one particular example of when a vaccination was released and available for a long time and unsafe, but had a safe alternative brand made in a different way and the parents of the children affected negatively by the unsafe one campaigned until the unsafe one was taken off the market and only the safe one is used today. (That is why I believe it is appropriate to evaluate each vaccination that you wish for your child to receive.)
-Vaccines do not routinely have serious side effects:
With regard to serious negative consequences related to vaccines no connection has been shown. With particular regard to the autism concerns the incidence of autism developing after vaccination is not higher than that of it developing regardless of vaccination. The well known scientist who claimed this was proven incorrect. An account used to illustrate this point is that of a father who took his infant to get vaccinated, and had to wait in line for hours, so in frustration took the baby home without receiving the vaccination, that night the baby died and the death was put down to SIDS, but if the baby had received the vaccination and then died who would be being blamed? (This is a very worthwhile point which it is important to understand the implications of. Of course to us it looks bad when someone gets a vaccination then falls ill with something, but if someone gets hit by a car do we look back to everything else that person did in the day assuming something must be responsible? The breakfast they ate? I'm sure you get my point. The reason vaccinations are often suspected is that people are suspicious of vaccines, it's a vicious circle but vaccines can defend themselves mostly.)
-The contents of vaccines are over-hyped:
With regard to the contents of vaccinations some have metals in them, but the rate is no higher than that which you would breathe from the air or drink in the water. Same goes for many of the other decried components.
Personally we vaccinated our first son "cause it was the thing to do". I questioned this with our second son, very scared of autism and wondering if it was unfaithful to vaccinate. We chose not to give him any vaccinations or needles at birth and kept evaluating each vaccination on it's own merits. So far he is fully vaccinated (with the exception of the birth vaccinations - it's complicated, but here in Australia they are not necessary). My stance is that vaccines can be safe, not unfaithful or unbiblical and that sharing this truth with people including my husband is the only sensible thing to do. I submit to my husband in areas in which we disagree. It's hard. I'm still working on it.
A book I recommend on vaccinations is "Deadly Choices" written by Paul Offit.
EDIT: All the best with making a sensible educated decision. I will keep you, your husband and your children in my prayers.
I'm sorry this post is so long, it's hard to answer a complex question well in few words.
The way I see it there are three issues here:
-Vaccines? Safe or not?
-Getting vaccinated? Biblical or not?
-Relating to your husband? Submit or not?
And good news for you I am about to make it a whole lot more complicated!! Yay
-Vaccines:
It's not a case of safe and unsafe blanket rule. You need to evaluate each vaccine on it's risks, benefits, alternatives and consequences of opting out. Each vaccine has different risks, benefits, alternatives and consequences, no two are completely alike, each need to be evaluated on their own. It is impossible to say all vaccines are safe, it is impossible to say all vaccines are unsafe.
It is hard to get reasonable answers about this because the anti vaccination supporters and the pro vaccination supporters both make such emotional arguments, both sides mud sling, both sides have engaged in very poor tactics to get their point across.
-Getting vacinated:
It's neither written for or against in the bible, so we need to apply general biblical principles. Seeking the aid of physicians is not written against anywhere in the bible. God is a healing and protecting God. Anything that is done out of faith is good in God's eyes, anything done not out of faith doesn't measure up. It is okay to seek the help of doctors or vaccination while having your faith solidly in God. It is not okay to put your faith in the doctors or the vaccinations. It's okay to have faith that God will heal or protect you. But when Jesus was tempted by Satan to throw himself off the temple cause Satan said the angels would protect him Jesus answered "do not tempt the Lord your God". It is up to you whether you would regard rejecting medical protection from disease, while keeping your faith in God not medicine, as tempting God.
-Relating to your husband:
You submit to him, he loves you as Christ loves the church and lays down his life for you. God is above him, if he disobeys God, you disobey him and obey God. If you simply disagree with him you obey him. You can share the truth with him and be a witness and testimony to him through your words but more effectively through the way you live your life.
Now as for the claims made against vaccinations, they are numerous and varied. The important things to know are:
-Vaccination is not compulsory:
In Australia you can apply for conscientious objector status, I don't know if this is possible where you live, but it means they can go to school and participate in the programs that vaccinated kids attend. Conscientious objection status just makes it clear to people who run the programs and care, that you are not lazy, you have made a decision not to vaccinate.
-Credible pro vaccine supporters defend credibly:
There are quite a number of obvious facts left out of the list of "ten questions vaccine-pushing doctors and health authorities absolutely refuse to answer" (this list is ONLY discussing the flu vaccine) some of the questions have been answered but anti vaccine supporters do not accept the answers (you should look into the answers yourself and decide if you find them acceptable).
-Diseases are dangerous:
This should be a no brainer but for some reason it's one of the points of debate. For the diseases which vaccinations are available, many are legitimately bad diseases, some people say "I had chickenpox and it didn't kill me" but while chickenpox doesn't seriously affect everyone who contracts it it still can seriously affect anyone who contracts it
-It's important to fully understand 'herd immunity':
The reason that many of these diseases for which vaccinations are available are not prominent today is because of the vaccinations, in a community where say 98% of the people receive the vaccination slightly less than that percentage of people will actually receive immunity (cause yes, in some individuals vaccination does not produce immunity) the other pretend 2% are people like newborns who haven't been vaccinated yet or people with immune or other serious health disorders - it is the immunity of the group, the willingness of strangers to subject themselves to vaccination that protects these others in the community who are temporarily or permanently unable to get vaccinated and therefore at risk. Also the immune group is protecting those among them that received the vaccination but didn't receive immunity
-Vaccines are not above the law:
There are a handful of examples of where vaccinations were shown quickly after their release to be unsafe and were retracted until they became safe, also one particular example of when a vaccination was released and available for a long time and unsafe, but had a safe alternative brand made in a different way and the parents of the children affected negatively by the unsafe one campaigned until the unsafe one was taken off the market and only the safe one is used today. (That is why I believe it is appropriate to evaluate each vaccination that you wish for your child to receive.)
-Vaccines do not routinely have serious side effects:
With regard to serious negative consequences related to vaccines no connection has been shown. With particular regard to the autism concerns the incidence of autism developing after vaccination is not higher than that of it developing regardless of vaccination. The well known scientist who claimed this was proven incorrect. An account used to illustrate this point is that of a father who took his infant to get vaccinated, and had to wait in line for hours, so in frustration took the baby home without receiving the vaccination, that night the baby died and the death was put down to SIDS, but if the baby had received the vaccination and then died who would be being blamed? (This is a very worthwhile point which it is important to understand the implications of. Of course to us it looks bad when someone gets a vaccination then falls ill with something, but if someone gets hit by a car do we look back to everything else that person did in the day assuming something must be responsible? The breakfast they ate? I'm sure you get my point. The reason vaccinations are often suspected is that people are suspicious of vaccines, it's a vicious circle but vaccines can defend themselves mostly.)
-The contents of vaccines are over-hyped:
With regard to the contents of vaccinations some have metals in them, but the rate is no higher than that which you would breathe from the air or drink in the water. Same goes for many of the other decried components.
Personally we vaccinated our first son "cause it was the thing to do". I questioned this with our second son, very scared of autism and wondering if it was unfaithful to vaccinate. We chose not to give him any vaccinations or needles at birth and kept evaluating each vaccination on it's own merits. So far he is fully vaccinated (with the exception of the birth vaccinations - it's complicated, but here in Australia they are not necessary). My stance is that vaccines can be safe, not unfaithful or unbiblical and that sharing this truth with people including my husband is the only sensible thing to do. I submit to my husband in areas in which we disagree. It's hard. I'm still working on it.
A book I recommend on vaccinations is "Deadly Choices" written by Paul Offit.
EDIT: All the best with making a sensible educated decision. I will keep you, your husband and your children in my prayers.
Last edited:
Peace Seeker
Member
- Joined
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Laugh all you want. Twenty years ago there was an excuse for ignorance but there isn't one now, in this information age.
People that are afraid to, or unwilling to think for themselves, throw that term around (conspiracy theory) so they don't have to. I don't think the plethora of doctors and other educated professionals that are against vaccinations are ALSO conspiracy theorists!
If you have kids get them a double shot of vaccine, anything as long as you don't be a conspiracy theorist. :tongue-animated:
Last edited:
Lol, you should calm down a little bit.
This is also off topic, so I won't continue. It's embarrassing.
Be not concerned about what your children might get. Be concerned about what your children might pass on to other children. There has been many children die because the parents believed they had faith to heal the child of serious illnesses. Some of these parents faced the law when they allowed their children to die, because they had faith, but no common sence.
Your husband is very well meaning, but is too ignorant on what risks he exposes your children, and other children to. Try to get him to go to a local health center or get some mreading material for him to read. Should some illness take your childs life because you "did not have enough faith" what then?:shock:
Your husband is very well meaning, but is too ignorant on what risks he exposes your children, and other children to. Try to get him to go to a local health center or get some mreading material for him to read. Should some illness take your childs life because you "did not have enough faith" what then?:shock:
Peace Seeker
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- Joined
- Nov 7, 2011
- Messages
- 712
Brother Mike, I agree that trusting God should be in the forefront of a Christian's life. But...do you lock your doors to your house and alarm your car? Do you wear a seat belt when you drive? Do you look both ways when you cross the street? Is that being unfaithful? There are many responsible things we all do every day that don't make us unfaithful to God.
We can have faith in God's provisions and protection, but that doesn't give us license to be negligent, flippant or laissez-faire in our attitude. We don't go blow all our money because we say God will give us more. And we don't act like we don't have to look after our kids because God will.
We are to be responsible and have good discernment in our doings, rather than just chocking everything up to faith. Faith plus works, not faith plus nothing.
God also said we have to provide for our household, and that is not just financially. We guard and protect our kids and our spouses, etc., not because we don't have faith in God's ability or desire to, or because we are fearful, but because we are responsible. Does God not want that?
So I am not sure what you mean by "it is not faith in God to not vaccinate your child".
It is not fear of doctors, or lack of trust in God, to make responsible and educated decisions for your children's health, or what have you. If anything, to me, handing your kids over to a doctor is more like blind trust in man, than trust in God.
Brother Mike
Member
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- Sep 16, 2008
- Messages
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Faith in God.
Thank you Peace Keeper....................
Let me clarify some.
We are told, by his stripes we are healed.......... Already provided for us, as Salvation has been provided.
I believe that.
We are also told not to be ignorant of the will of the Lord.
I believe that, so his wisdom, has to be given. (James 1:5)
I believe God knows more than we do. I hope everyone thinks that.
So.............. Motive and action determine the so called faith behind it.
You mentioned that.
If your door locks, lock it. If there is a gate around your pool to protect your little ones, Lock it!!! (I know a sad story about "faith Christians that did not lock the pool gate when told by the service man to do so.)
Ok, so I don't lock my house or car.......much, guilty, but not because of any faith, I am just not that concerned about it. If it locks, lock it.
So, by his stripes we are healed.............. Awesome, but no place I have found do we dictate to God how he wants to proceed to take care of us.
We have to be led by the Spirit of God.
If we go to the doctor, I believe God, and pray for my doctor. He will find the right thing, and know exactly what to prescribe. I won't go unless I hear God on it first though.
Even when I cut my thumb open on a can. I did not move right away, I know it's not a big deal for God to fix that, but I checked in with him first. He knows if going to the doctor is going to make things worse, which is sometimes the case.
He told me to just go and get it sowed up, so I went. No issues.
Being around these "Word of faith" people all the time, they know something is wrong, but won't go to the Doctor, they don't even ask God about it..........
by his stripes I am healed, I have been redeemed from the curse of the law, all sickness has been laid on him....... on and on and on....
That is really awesome!!! but now tell me why you won't go to the doctor again? Well, the real motive is using the Word, and some faith believe, because they are afraid to go to the doctor, afraid to find if it's serious or not. They are scared. They just use the faith stuff to avoid having to face something.
This is not faith................ If God says go, go. If he says stay, I'll fix it, then stay. In all cases, God must come first and our trust in him, we don't use faith to avoid his direction.
Jesus is Lord.
Thank you Peace Keeper....................
Let me clarify some.
We are told, by his stripes we are healed.......... Already provided for us, as Salvation has been provided.
I believe that.
We are also told not to be ignorant of the will of the Lord.
I believe that, so his wisdom, has to be given. (James 1:5)
I believe God knows more than we do. I hope everyone thinks that.
So.............. Motive and action determine the so called faith behind it.
You mentioned that.
If your door locks, lock it. If there is a gate around your pool to protect your little ones, Lock it!!! (I know a sad story about "faith Christians that did not lock the pool gate when told by the service man to do so.)
Ok, so I don't lock my house or car.......much, guilty, but not because of any faith, I am just not that concerned about it. If it locks, lock it.
So, by his stripes we are healed.............. Awesome, but no place I have found do we dictate to God how he wants to proceed to take care of us.
We have to be led by the Spirit of God.
If we go to the doctor, I believe God, and pray for my doctor. He will find the right thing, and know exactly what to prescribe. I won't go unless I hear God on it first though.
Even when I cut my thumb open on a can. I did not move right away, I know it's not a big deal for God to fix that, but I checked in with him first. He knows if going to the doctor is going to make things worse, which is sometimes the case.
He told me to just go and get it sowed up, so I went. No issues.
Being around these "Word of faith" people all the time, they know something is wrong, but won't go to the Doctor, they don't even ask God about it..........
by his stripes I am healed, I have been redeemed from the curse of the law, all sickness has been laid on him....... on and on and on....
That is really awesome!!! but now tell me why you won't go to the doctor again? Well, the real motive is using the Word, and some faith believe, because they are afraid to go to the doctor, afraid to find if it's serious or not. They are scared. They just use the faith stuff to avoid having to face something.
This is not faith................ If God says go, go. If he says stay, I'll fix it, then stay. In all cases, God must come first and our trust in him, we don't use faith to avoid his direction.
Jesus is Lord.
Peace Seeker
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Thank you for the clarification, I can't say there is anything in it that I disagree with. I think your example about those people that don't lock the pool gate neatly sums up the point I was trying to make, that we shouldn't be careless, no matter how much faith we have. We were given minds and are expected to use them. Be wise as serpents, etc. Not be so foolish as to leave a pool exposed to toddlers, with the attitude that "I have faith in God that He will protect them". That is beyond silly to me, and wreckless.
So I see faith and common sense as mutually compatible, believing that there should be a balance. I think God decides for each person what that balance should be. Paul could confidently shake the snake from his hand, without fear of impending death, whereas another Christian might be much more concerned, according to the measure of faith He has been given.
Two things that strike me from this post:
-I would like to know what the difference is between exposing a child to a pool and exposing a child to a disease?
-I would like to know whether you liken vaccinating more to "shaking snakes off" or more to "being concerned"?
Peace Seeker
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I'm guessing that by posing this question it is your belief that vaccinating is necessary, even essential, for preventing/fighting off disease. IE : you are concerned about "shaking snakes off" - the snake being the disease. Therefore you are pro-vaccination.
To that my answer is, it is the vaccines that are the snakes.
To use your mode of questioning, I would like to know if you know the difference between common sense and personal responsibility, and blind trust in a monstrosity of a pharmaceutical industry that has a 100+ year track record of destroying our health.
Furthermore, I would not expose a child to the swimming pool or to diseases. But the difference between your belief and mine seems to be that I believe vaccinations are very harmful and destroy the natural abilities of our immune system to fight off diseases, like they're designed to do. And that's just a start.
Whereas you apparently are under the naive assumption that the powers that be have your best interests at heart and would never put anything harmful in their products. Or you think the risks in taking drugs is minimal, or if not minimal, you must nonetheless play Russian Roulette with them, because like it or not, drugs are necessary.
But based on my personal research and that of many prominent researchers, I have every reason to distrust the drug manufacturers and be wary of their claims, motives and goals. And so do you.
Someone asked a question to start this thread, and I answered it by putting some information out. If you don't agree with the info, that's fine. Everyone has a right to his opinion, and no one can force you to have an educated opinion. If being a trusting soul makes your boat float, I have no issue with that.
I don't know if you are aware of, say....... the Thalidomide babies? I am sure many of the mothers that took that drug were good, God-fearing and trusting Christians!!
How about (Fen-Phen) Fenfluramine? You may remember that one, as it was not too many years ago. - shown to cause potentially fatal pulmonary hypertension and heart valve problems, which eventually led to more than 50,000 lawsuits, the product's withdrawal, and legal damages of over $13 billion.
How about Diethylstilbestrol (DES)? - given to six million to prevent miscarriage. The drug was taken off the market when studies showed serious side effects, including a link between DES and vaginal cancer, and increased risk of breast cancer. Nice !!
Cerivastatin (Baycol) - From the company that colluded with I.G. Farben and the Nazis in W.W. II. But I'm sure they're nicer people now!! Are you dying to lower your cholesterol with this drug?
Phenylpropanolamine (PPA) - More than 25,000 lawsuits filed, awards for damages in the $$$ billions.
Rofecoxib (Vioxx) - considered to be the largest drug recall in history. Recalled after five years on the market - $6 billion in litigation-related expenses.
Vioxx was prescribed to millions of people. The FDA estimates that Vioxx may have contributed to 27,785 heart attacks and sudden cardiac deaths between 1999 and 2003. (The number may be as high as 140,000). Merck settled Vioxx litigation in the US for $4.8 billion, with close to $1 billion in legal expenses.
But I don't know why I bother posting these things when most people have already made their minds up. :shock:
What about the billions of lives that vaccines and drugs have saved? What about the massive amounts of epidemics they have prevented?
Brother Mike
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Faith, foolishness, and presumption.
Peace Seeker:
--------------
A few years ago, working in a laundry I came to work to find our dryer had broken. I was told the motor had burned out by the tech, and supervisor. I was instructed to just wash the cloths, and hang them wet to be dried by the next shift.
Well, the motor is burned out..... Umm... God can fix motors. So I told God, I wanted to complete my work, and leave nothing for the next guy. I laid my hand on that dryer and commanded it to work in the name of Jesus. I then tried it.............. Nothing........
I just sat down, and the supervisor came in. For some reason he just hit the on button and the thing kicked on. He was shocked, I was sort of surprised, but I was able to finish drying all my shifts cloths.
That next morning my replacement came in, and the dryer quit..... He had to wait for that motor to be replaced..........
Wisdom:
few moths later, there was a clog in the drain of our Wash Machine. We had to drain the washer into big laundry tubs on wheels and roll them down a long hall to the outside and dump them.
Not me.... I have faith.
I spoke to that clog, commanded it to just melt away in Jesus name....
Nothing...............
ummm...... It worked on that dryer......... this is just a clog.
I sat there another 3 hours doing laundry and rolling that tub of water down the hall.......
Then the Lord spoke to me......(not a voice but inside) He said.."I would rather you seek me for everything, and find out what you need to apply your faith to, and what you should get my Wisdom on."
Then He said........"See that sink? Just move the Washer over 3 feet and hook the drain hose into that."
Wow... the supervisor did not see that, the two guys before me did not see that. The solution was simple. I guess I am not that smart, but I just did as the Lord asked, and I no longer had to drag that tub full of water down the hall. The next morning the plumber came and unclogged the drain.
Pro 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
Jesus Is Lord.
Peace Seeker:
Sounds Good, I always preach to never push your faith off or judge someone else by it............ Let each man/women be convinced in their own mind.
--------------
A few years ago, working in a laundry I came to work to find our dryer had broken. I was told the motor had burned out by the tech, and supervisor. I was instructed to just wash the cloths, and hang them wet to be dried by the next shift.
Well, the motor is burned out..... Umm... God can fix motors. So I told God, I wanted to complete my work, and leave nothing for the next guy. I laid my hand on that dryer and commanded it to work in the name of Jesus. I then tried it.............. Nothing........
I just sat down, and the supervisor came in. For some reason he just hit the on button and the thing kicked on. He was shocked, I was sort of surprised, but I was able to finish drying all my shifts cloths.
That next morning my replacement came in, and the dryer quit..... He had to wait for that motor to be replaced..........
Wisdom:
few moths later, there was a clog in the drain of our Wash Machine. We had to drain the washer into big laundry tubs on wheels and roll them down a long hall to the outside and dump them.
Not me.... I have faith.
I spoke to that clog, commanded it to just melt away in Jesus name....
Nothing...............
ummm...... It worked on that dryer......... this is just a clog.
I sat there another 3 hours doing laundry and rolling that tub of water down the hall.......
Then the Lord spoke to me......(not a voice but inside) He said.."I would rather you seek me for everything, and find out what you need to apply your faith to, and what you should get my Wisdom on."
Then He said........"See that sink? Just move the Washer over 3 feet and hook the drain hose into that."
Wow... the supervisor did not see that, the two guys before me did not see that. The solution was simple. I guess I am not that smart, but I just did as the Lord asked, and I no longer had to drag that tub full of water down the hall. The next morning the plumber came and unclogged the drain.
Pro 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
Jesus Is Lord.
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I feel that if you need to guess at my stance perhaps you haven't read the post where I clearly stated it?
I asked you two questions and I feel I strived to make them very polite and unoffensive so I could learn more about how you arrived at your views.
-I feel exposing a child to a pool and exposing a child to a disease require similar thought processes.
-I think you misunderstood my reference to your post regarding the snakes:
It seemed to me like the two options here are "confidently shake the snake from his hand, without fear of impending death" or being "much more concerned". I assumed that choosing to vaccinate when determined as worthwhile was like "confidently ... without fear" and choosing all vaccinations or no vaccinations was like "... more concerned".
The rest of your post I feel makes it very clear to me that you have not read anything I said and I feel like it says that you are comfortable discussing counterpoints for what you perceive I might have said or might think, without any due consideration for what I actually said and think.
So far despite making valid and truthful points about the contents of vaccinations I feel you have not added an educated approach to this subject but rather one based on concerns about general points such as:
-whether it is right to trust large companies and governments to have our best interests at heart
and
-whether people have taken medicine in the past which has had negative consequences for them
In case you are reluctant to read back to what I said earlier I will try to express it succinctly here:
-I do not dispute the contents of vaccines
-I do not dispute that it is not wise to trust large companies and governments to have our best interest at heart
-I do not dispute that there is current medical practice that is non evidence based and causing harm to many
-I do not dispute that absolute faith in God as our healer and protector should be the cornerstone of discussions about healing and protection
-I am not pro vaccines in the sense that I accept the whole of vaccination as a positive thing
(There have been clear and well documented and well accepted cases of vaccines causing injuries. Specifically the polio vaccine. There were two people, two companies and two ways of making it. One way contained the live virus which obviously affected people the same way as catching polio. The other contained the deactivated virus and did not put people at the same risks as the live virus vaccine. Parents realised this and lobbied and the live virus vaccine was taken off the market in favour of the deactivated one. This is clearly an example of a vaccine that was doing harm.)
-I do vaccinate my two sons, and will vaccinate my baby when it's born, with each vaccination I determine is sensible. So far my first son has received full vaccination according to the Australian schedule of vaccination, and my second son has received neither of the two birth needles (one a vaccination, one something else) because through education I realised that they were unnecessary. He has received each of the subsequent vaccinations that were in the schedule that I determined sensible to vaccinate against, after weighing the risks, benefits, alternatives and consequences. This is a determination which needs to be made by each individual. It needs to take into consideration all the factors which affect vaccination, not merely the fear factor which I feel is the only thing you have focused on.
The reason I feel this way is that, as Fraction pointed out:
You have not addressed the benefits of vaccination anywhere that I have read.
Until you are willing to discuss the risks and the benefits of vaccination I feel just as you have expressed it:
I hope you can see I have listened to you and considered the points you have raised, please do me the same justice. Thank you.
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Peace Seeker
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Billions????? Surely you are joking.
Peace Seeker
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That's awesome! Faith can move mountains! And faith with works and wisdom is even more potent!
Peace Seeker
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As we just finished chatting about this in the chat room and I am very tired, i will try to find some time tomorrow to respond to this. For now, I will just say that I have in fact read your original post, twice. I understand most of your points and will try to address them tomorrow. If there is something really specific you have in mind please tell me. IE: you mentioned that I haven't mentioned the positive effects of vaccines, or whatever.
