incest outcast

[TouchTestimony]

out of curiosity, i've been wondering how christian-ally wrong incest is, given that adam and eve's offsprings, and thereby our ancestors, had no other option?? or was it okay then and not okay now???

 

[Kit Carson]

My answer in not traditional. But with a lot of study of Gods word, and the study of science and what we all learn and with the knowledge that we were created and the conviction that God is real and many other things.....my answer is as so. We do not know all things, but the truth of things does show through.

In the beginning Adam And Eve were perfect. There was no sin and only at some point during their time of perfection did sin enter into things. When it did we, the earth and all things were cursed by God.

So Genetic deterioration began to happen. As we know today marriage between closely related persons leads to many birth defects and serious complications. As does even between those who are not related but have similar genetic structures, in these also serious complications arise.

So in the beginning it was accepted. Many things in the Bible show this but as time went on and the human life span shortened due to the deterioration of the genetic code, then new laws were placed upon society. These laws were to protect and avoid the complications of mis matched genetics.

The world loves to believe in evolution. I look at God as the ultimate scientist. Only he understands it all, and only he has the knowledge to create something as wonderful as we and the earth and all the animals. So I look at it as God being the absolute intelligence of creation and science. I watch in the Bible as history and time and tradition changes, and I can apply that to what little we know of science today and even I can see how it all ties together. So one can see culture and traditions and ways change with purpose on some things , but one sees that the simple laws of morality always stay the same. But man in many ways applies his own morality to some things and this creates the confusion. We also have to live within our own laws, so in the modern world incest is a crime. There are many more reasons for it to be a crime today.....but that will make it too complicated to explain well.

Some things were allowed in the beginning, and they were acceptable and as time went on they are no longer acceptable.

Women and a sister and so on are not even spoken of in the Bible, but you have to realize in those times with those laws of man, women were treated as cattle, had no rights, were viewed as the one who took man into sin, were bought and sold, sold into slavery and man did many things not actually in line with Gods way. That is why the law never worked.....we always mess it up.

Hope I said something that makes sense.

That is how I look at it.

Kit

 

[Peace Seeker]

out of curiosity, i've been wondering how christian-ally wrong incest is, given that adam and eve's offsprings, and thereby our ancestors, had no other option?? or was it okay then and not okay now???

I may have a different take on it than most, but I have always thought Adam (Awdawm) could just as easily be a title or description as it could a person. Therefore when God made the "Adam", it could have meant he made Adam-kind, ormore than one. And if God made a bunch of Adam-kind at the same time, they wouldn't necessarily be "family" as we consider the term, they would just be like-kind, made at the same time.
If that was the case, then there could have been more than just Adam and Eve around to procreate, and we don't know how much of a time frame we would be looking at either.. Or not every person that existed at that time with Adam and Eve was named in Genesis?

When Cain was banished from God he went to the land of Nod, where he built a city and took himself a wife from among their people. So there were definitely lots of other people around.

Even if my theory is wrong, it wasn't incest (as we currently understand it to be) for the original humans because incest was first a taboo/sin in the law of Leviticus, which came long after Adam and Eve and their immediate descendants passed on. Other than that, only God knows how it all went about.

 

[WaterRock]

out of curiosity, i've been wondering how christian-ally wrong incest is, given that adam and eve's offsprings, and thereby our ancestors, had no other option?? or was it okay then and not okay now???

Excellent point, if GOD is this the same yesterday, and today and tomorrow, then His Word, His Truth and His Spirit all bear witness to that testimony. As written, the testimony of Jesus is Worship GOD, in Spirit and in Truth.

Man believed that yesterday, this today, and who knows what tomorrow, But in all fairness, as we grown in the Spirit, we also grow in knowledge of the truth of His Word.

Once you place your trust in Faith, the "substance" or principle of His Word, the Spirit will reveal the "evidence", or rather will bear witness to your spirit of the Truth.

These two elements, substance and evidence, together form that one act called "Faith", since there are more than one, each of them are still an act of "Faith". Such as day 4, did God create the sun and the moon, or was the sun created on day one and well, by Faith you might just see will make a difference as clear as night and day in coming to the truth of His Word.

 

[Kit Carson]

I may have a different take on it than most, but I have always thought Adam (Awdawm) could just as easily be a title or description as it could a person. Therefore when God made the "Adam", it could have meant he made Adam-kind, ormore than one. And if God made a bunch of Adam-kind at the same time, they wouldn't necessarily be "family" as we consider the term, they would just be like-kind, made at the same time.
If that was the case, then there could have been more than just Adam and Eve around to procreate, and we don't know how much of a time frame we would be looking at either.. Or not every person that existed at that time with Adam and Eve was named in Genesis?

When Cain was banished from God he went to the land of Nod, where he built a city and took himself a wife from among their people. So there were definitely lots of other people around.

Even if my theory is wrong, it wasn't incest (as we currently understand it to be) for the original humans because incest was first a taboo/sin in the law of Leviticus, which came long after Adam and Eve and their immediate descendants passed on. Other than that, only God knows how it all went about.

The bible leaves out a lot, it is a short story. But Adam lived many years and for sure other children were born. There was only one man, one woman to begin with.

Read carefully the bible, it says Cain went to the land of Nod and knew his wife and Enoch was born.

It does not say Cain went to Nod and found a wife, it says he went there and knew his wife.

For all we know he was married before he went there. Does seem to be.

Kit

 

[B-A-C]

Here are some of the more common verses about incest in the Bible. There are many more, but this is a pretty good start I think.

Lev 20:11 "If a man violates his father by having sex with one of his father's wives, both the man and the woman must be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense.
Lev 20:12 "If a man has sex with his daughter-in-law, both must be put to death. They have committed a perverse act and are guilty of a capital offense.
Lev 20:13 "If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense.
Lev 20:14 "If a man marries both a woman and her mother, he has committed a wicked act. The man and both women must be burned to death to wipe out such wickedness from among you.
Lev 20:15 "If a man has sex with an animal, he must be put to death, and the animal must be killed.
Lev 20:16 "If a woman presents herself to a male animal to have intercourse with it, she and the animal must both be put to death. You must kill both, for they are guilty of a capital offense.
Lev 20:17 "If a man marries his sister, the daughter of either his father or his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a shameful disgrace. They must be publicly cut off from the community. Since the man has violated his sister, he will be punished for his sin.
Lev 20:18 "If a man has sexual relations with a woman during her menstrual period, both of them must be cut off from the community, for together they have exposed the source of her blood flow.
Lev 20:19 "Do not have sexual relations with your aunt, whether your mother's sister or your father's sister. This would dishonor a close relative. Both parties are guilty and will be punished for their sin.
Lev 20:20 If a man has sex with his uncle's wife, he has violated his uncle. Both the man and woman will be punished for their sin, and they will die childless.
Lev 20:21 "If a man marries his brother's wife, it is an act of impurity. He has violated his brother, and the guilty couple will remain childless.
Lev 20:22 "You must keep all My decrees and regulations by putting them into practice; otherwise the land to which I am bringing you as your new home will vomit you out.

Lev 18:5 If you obey My decrees and My regulations, you will find life through them. I am the LORD.
Lev 18:6 "You must never have sexual relations with a close relative, for I am the LORD.
Lev 18:7 "Do not violate your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; you must not have sexual relations with her.
Lev 18:8 "Do not have sexual relations with any of your father's wives, for this would violate your father.
Lev 18:9 "Do not have sexual relations with your sister or half sister, whether she is your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether she was born into your household or someone else's.
Lev 18:10 "Do not have sexual relations with your granddaughter, whether she is your son's daughter or your daughter's daughter, for this would violate yourself.
Lev 18:11 "Do not have sexual relations with your stepsister, the daughter of any of your father's wives, for she is your sister.
Lev 18:12 "Do not have sexual relations with your father's sister, for she is your father's close relative.
Lev 18:13 "Do not have sexual relations with your mother's sister, for she is your mother's close relative.
Lev 18:14 "Do not violate your uncle, your father's brother, by having sexual relations with his wife, for she is your aunt.
Lev 18:15 "Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law; she is your son's wife, so you must not have sexual relations with her.
Lev 18:16 "Do not have sexual relations with your brother's wife, for this would violate your brother.
Lev 18:17 "Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. And do not take her granddaughter, whether her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter, and have sexual relations with her. They are close relatives, and this would be a wicked act.
Lev 18:18 "While your wife is living, do not marry her sister and have sexual relations with her, for they would be rivals.
Lev 18:19 "Do not have sexual relations with a woman during her period of menstrual impurity.
Lev 18:20 "Do not defile yourself by having sexual intercourse with your neighbor's wife.
Lev 18:21 "Do not permit any of your children to be offered as a sacrifice to Molech, for you must not bring shame on the name of your God. I am the LORD.
Lev 18:22 "Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin.
Lev 18:23 "A man must not defile himself by having sex with an animal. And a woman must not offer herself to a male animal to have intercourse with it. This is a perverse act.
Lev 18:24 "Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, for the people I am driving out before you have defiled themselves in all these ways.

1 Cor 5:1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.
1 Cor 5:2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
1 Cor 5:3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present.
1 Cor 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
1 Cor 5:5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

As for Adam.. he was definitely a real person, not an abstract of society or a group of people. How do I know this?

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
Rom 5:13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
Rom 5:16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

So the question would be... if sin came into the world by Adam (a group of people?) are we saved then by Jesus (a group of people?) No, Adam was a real person like Jesus.
Eve wasn't a previous relative of Adams. She wasn't his sister, daughter, mother, aunt, cousin, etc... she was his wife. They were related in that way.

 

[WaterRock]

Eve wasn't a previous relative of Adams. She wasn't his sister, daughter, mother, aunt, cousin, etc... she was his wife. They were related in that way.

1, Nice post, faith comes by hearing and there is nothing perserve or wrong about the Word.

2. Now Eve being made from the rib of the man, one almost has to conclude that DNA played a factor in the making of Eve? Not to say it absolutely is the case, but certainly a possibility.

3. The son of God was real man, then why couldn't the LORD God been a real man too. It says in the scriptures the LORD God walked and talked with man in the first days. In fact, Elohim, Gods would signify why the reference LORD God, being the chief leader of these physical beings called Gods.

4. Jesus said he came down from heaven. And while without a doubt his testimony wasn't to worship the Gods, but rather the CREATOR, the only one true and eternal GOD who is a Spirit. Ex 22:28; Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people.

5. The name Jesus, countless scriptures in the NT indicate that Son of God who came down from heaven was referencing another;

John 17:6
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

John 10:25
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me

John 17:26
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

I BELIEVE UPON HIM, and maybe I am wrong but it seems many are believing in Him and if He came down from heaven to testify His Faith, wouldn't it be error to Worship Him, but rather who he teaches us to Worship. If a Preacher, Prophet, Witness bring a person to GOD, do they worship the creature or the Creator?

 

[Peace Seeker]

The bible leaves out a lot, it is a short story. But Adam lived many years and for sure other children were born. There was only one man, one woman to begin with.

Read carefully the bible, it says Cain went to the land of Nod and knew his wife and Enoch was born.

It does not say Cain went to Nod and found a wife, it says he went there and knew his wife.

For all we know he was married before he went there. Does seem to be.

Kit

Yes, agreed, it says he knew his wife, but it also doesn't say Cain took a wife with him when he departed out of the presence of God. Everything in Gen 4 is between Cain and God and no one else. There is no mention of Cain being with wife and/or family in tow when God sentenced him (not anyone else) to be a fugitive and a vagabond.

And if Cain had already had a wife, wouldn't God have put a mark upon her as well? Cain's line was cursed and I believe the mark on Cain was not just to keep people from killing him but to also identify his bloodline so that the Godly line of Shem would not intermarry into it.

 

[Peace Seeker]

So the question would be... if sin came into the world by Adam (a group of people?) are we saved then by Jesus (a group of people?) No, Adam was a real person like Jesus. Eve wasn't a previous relative of Adams. She wasn't his sister, daughter, mother, aunt, cousin, etc... she was his wife. They were related in that way.

Of course Adam was a real person and Eve was his wife. The only point I was making was that Adam is not only a name but also a description. Therefore it is possible that when Genesis tells us that God made Adam, it was describing the kind of being that was made, not how many.
There are 6 or 7 Hebrew words for "man", one of them is "Enosh". Just as Enosh wasn't the person's name, neither was Adam (Awdawm) only a name.

I'm not claiming I have all the answers on this subject, I don't think anyone does, because as another poster stated, the Genesis story has a lot of information left out.

Anyway, on a related subject, does anyone know how big the garden of Eden was and where it is purported to have been located?
If so, could 2 people (or just 1, before Eve was created) tend and look after such a vast area? We're not talking about a house with a small garden plot in the backyard.

Regarding your question : "if sin came into the world by Adam (a group of people?) are we saved then by Jesus (a group of people?)", I think you have misunderstood me.
I agree that sin came into the world by 2 people (Eve and Adam), not a group of people. If at the beginning an Adam-kind was created (more than 1 person), that doesn't necessitate that all beings in existence participated in the fall.

 

[Kit Carson]

Yes, agreed, it says he knew his wife, but it also doesn't say Cain took a wife with him when he departed out of the presence of God. Everything in Gen 4 is between Cain and God and no one else. There is no mention of Cain being with wife and/or family in tow when God sentenced him (not anyone else) to be a fugitive and a vagabond.

And if Cain had already had a wife, wouldn't God have put a mark upon her as well? Cain's line was cursed and I believe the mark on Cain was not just to keep people from killing him but to also identify his bloodline so that the Godly line of Shem would not intermarry into it.

I honestly do not know. On some things I have learned to just not get too serious with questions. I have heard all kinds of opinions on what the Mark of Cain was , it is not described so I just say, OK.

One thing in life I have learned is to never assume or think you know something, or to judge something or someone without knowledge of all the facts.

So I will simply say...I dunno.

Kit

 

[Peace Seeker]

I honestly do not know. On some things I have learned to just not get too serious with questions. I have heard all kinds of opinions on what the Mark of Cain was , it is not described so I just say, OK.

One thing in life I have learned is to never assume or think you know something, or to judge something or someone without knowledge of all the facts.

So I will simply say...I dunno.

Kit

I think the Lord has blessed me (or some might say cursed? ) with a very analytical mind, so I really enjoy these kinds of discussions. I want to know things. But like has been said, there is just so much we don't know, and perhaps - I will concede - don't need to know. (?)

As to the judging of others, God forbid! We're exchanging thoughts and ideas, not judging.

 

[gdemoss]

Hi peace seeker, I too seek peace as well as to grow in love for one another. I truly believe that God shows each of us certain aspects of his word. Like prophets in New Testament times before the canon we exchange our information that God has entrusted to each of us. Just as those prophets in apostolic times had to judge what each other prophesied we must evaluate each others claims of understanding about scripture.

Of course Adam was a real person and Eve was his wife. The only point I was making was that Adam is not only a name but also a description. Therefore it is possible that when Genesis tells us that God made Adam, it was describing the kind of being that was made, not how many.
There are 6 or 7 Hebrew words for "man", one of them is "Enosh". Just as Enosh wasn't the person's name, neither was Adam (Awdawm) only a name.

I'm not claiming I have all the answers on this subject, I don't think anyone does, because as another poster stated, the Genesis story has a lot of information left out.

Anyway, on a related subject, does anyone know how big the garden of Eden was and where it is purported to have been located?
If so, could 2 people (or just 1, before Eve was created) tend and look after such a vast area? We're not talking about a house with a small garden plot in the backyard.

Regarding your question : "if sin came into the world by Adam (a group of people?) are we saved then by Jesus (a group of people?)", I think you have misunderstood me.
I agree that sin came into the world by 2 people (Eve and Adam), not a group of people. If at the beginning an Adam-kind was created (more than 1 person), that doesn't necessitate that all beings in existence participated in the fall.

I seriously look for truth in what I am told so that I may grow in my faith and doctrinal positions.

• Adam is not only a name but a description.

I hold this position too. I don't say it that way though. Adam is a name. A name for the first man and the name of all humans who God created on day 6.

• Therefore it is possible that when Genesis tells us that God made Adam, it was describing the kind of being that was made, not how many.

This is true when based solely on the use of the word 'Adam'. In my study I have a few scriptures that limit the number of people created on day 6 to be 2. Adam and Eve. It was Adam's sin that caused the fall of man. God righteously imputed Adams sin upon the whole human race because we were all in his loins. This can be seen where Levi is credited with paying tithes in Abraham in Hebrews. If there were others could God have righteously punished them all with death for what Adam did? He did not punish all the angels for what the fallen ones did. There would have been sinless humans then. Secondly, they didn't understand that they were naked until they ate the fruit. None of the other humans would have known they were naked unless they were having a big fruit eating party around the tree and God only chose to scold Adam and Eve for it. Or it only took one human to eat the fruit and all human eyes were open. I could go on and on but all I would be doing is making the same mistake Eve did and adding to Gods word. It can be fun to try to fill in the blanks but very dangerous.

The simple answer can be found in Gen 3:20 "And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living."

As for the size of the Garden of Eden, it was probably the perfect size for Adam to tend. Eve's job was to tend to Adam. But God did not choose to tell us that.

I truly hope you find this helpful. If you see any fault in my reasoning please point it out.

Gary

 

[Peace Seeker]

Hi peace seeker, I too seek peace as well as to grow in love for one another. I truly believe that God shows each of us certain aspects of his word. Like prophets in New Testament times before the canon we exchange our information that God has entrusted to each of us. Just as those prophets in apostolic times had to judge what each other prophesied we must evaluate each others claims of understanding about scripture.

I seriously look for truth in what I am told so that I may grow in my faith and doctrinal positions.

• Adam is not only a name but a description.

I hold this position too. I don't say it that way though. Adam is a name. A name for the first man and the name of all humans who God created on day 6.

• Therefore it is possible that when Genesis tells us that God made Adam, it was describing the kind of being that was made, not how many.

This is true when based solely on the use of the word 'Adam'. In my study I have a few scriptures that limit the number of people created on day 6 to be 2. Adam and Eve. It was Adam's sin that caused the fall of man. God righteously imputed Adams sin upon the whole human race because we were all in his loins. This can be seen where Levi is credited with paying tithes in Abraham in Hebrews. If there were others could God have righteously punished them all with death for what Adam did? He did not punish all the angels for what the fallen ones did. There would have been sinless humans then. Secondly, they didn't understand that they were naked until they ate the fruit. None of the other humans would have known they were naked unless they were having a big fruit eating party around the tree and God only chose to scold Adam and Eve for it. Or it only took one human to eat the fruit and all human eyes were open. I could go on and on but all I would be doing is making the same mistake Eve did and adding to Gods word. It can be fun to try to fill in the blanks but very dangerous.

The simple answer can be found in Gen 3:20 "And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living."

As for the size of the Garden of Eden, it was probably the perfect size for Adam to tend. Eve's job was to tend to Adam. But God did not choose to tell us that.

I truly hope you find this helpful. If you see any fault in my reasoning please point it out.

Gary

Yes, I have found this helpful and I don't see any fault in your reasoning. Thanks for giving me another perspective to consider and meditate on!

 

[TouchTestimony]

wow! all this has made for pretty interesting reading!!

 

[Kit Carson]

I think the Lord has blessed me (or some might say cursed? ) with a very analytical mind, so I really enjoy these kinds of discussions. I want to know things. But like has been said, there is just so much we don't know, and perhaps - I will concede - don't need to know. (?)

As to the judging of others, God forbid! We're exchanging thoughts and ideas, not judging.

Well that word judging has many meanings. Judge not that you be judged, is understood. Make sure you are without sin yourself before you do and all that.

But we all judge daily. A yahoo shows up on a motorcycle to take your daughter on a date.....is she going......nope. I have judged that this is dangerous.
So I will reword.....Lol! To analyze and to consider and to make a decision without all the known facts is impossible. Or to judge the situation and settle it in your mind is hard to do with only hints, and incomplete knowledge.

We all judge things daily , make decisions to avoid , to accept, to speak against, and so on. So I guess the word decision is better. But both mean about the same in this context.

I am not well educated either, so I use words sometimes with what I know they mean to me, but mean something else to someone else.

Having just finished the book of Acts again, I am again impressed with the lesson to just take many things on faith. Trying to become smart can and will backfire if you are not careful. So to me the truth is God created us and the world and even though I do not understand it all, I am afraid to assume, as when I do, I find out I am not very smart.

Kit

 

[Peace Seeker]

Trying to become smart can and will backfire if you are not careful. So to me the truth is God created us and the world and even though I do not understand it all, I am afraid to assume, as when I do, I find out I am not very smart.

I agree. I have experienced the vanity and danger first-hand of over-thinking things. So I strive now to be a simple believer, thanking God for what He reveals to me and living by faith.

 

[TouchTestimony]

thank you kit carson and peace seeker

 

[Peace Seeker]

thank you kit carson and peace seeker

My pleasure!