John received the Revelation much earlier than most people think.

[StewardoftheMystery]

Most people have been told that John received the Revelation from Jesus around 68 to 96 ad.

But the writings of Paul prove this theory wrong.

Paul spoke of John being caught to the third heaven in …

2 Corinthians 12:2-4​

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King James Version​

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2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.”

Here is the event Paul is talking about in The Revelation concerning what John heard but could not write about…

Revelation 10​

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King James Version​

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10 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,
3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.”

Most agree Paul wrote 2 Corinthians around 55 ad. But notice Paul said in his letter above that he knew the man (John) 14 years prior to him writing this.

This proves without a doubt that John received the Revelation much earlier than most believe in order for Paul to testify of this experience by John.

 

[PloughBoy]

All Christendom have all kinds of views so does the "PhD's"

 

[Bob Carabbio]

This proves without a doubt that John received the Revelation much earlier than most believe in order for Paul to testify of this experience by John.

But of course it "Proves" absolutely NOTHING except what your own "private interpretation" of the passage you mis-applied is.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

But of course it "Proves" absolutely NOTHING except what your own "private interpretation" of the passage you mis-applied is.

How many men do you suppose Paul knew that got caught to heaven and heard unspeakable words besides John?

The words and Spirit agree, it was John.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

Is it possible that Paul spoke with John, or received the prophecy of the Revelation from the other Apostles prior to Paul writing 2 Corinthians?

Absolutely.

Paul was converted around 33 ad. And he met with Peter in Jerusalem 3 years after his conversion around 36 ad.

But 14 years after his conversion Paul met with the other apostles, including John.

Paul wrote about this in the book of Galatians, which many agree was written around 49 ad.

So it is very likely Paul met with John prior to Paul writing about John later on in 2 Corinthians.

 

[PloughBoy]

Paul makes it very clear .He did not know what it was, the experience.
2 CORINTHIANS 12
Whether it was in the body or out of It "I do not know", but God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows

There was no "Absolutes" on what took place here. So we cannot put "Absolutes" into Paul's mouth and claim He said something and he didn't.

When we deal with "The WORD of GOD" we must know the difference between "God's Absolutes" and man's "Speculations" even the Speculations of Men recorded in "the Bible" about "GOD" and have The discernment to know The difference. To rightly divide "The Truth" and to put each "Truth" in its proper plan in "Application" pleasing and Approved of GOD.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

All Christendom have all kinds of views so does the "PhD's"

What is a PHD? A Phycological Disorder?

Luke 10:21
In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

Paul makes it very clear .He did not know what it was, the experience.
2 CORINTHIANS 12
Whether it was in the body or out of It "I do not know", but God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows

There was no "Absolutes" on what took place here. So we cannot put "Absolutes" into Paul's mouth and claim He said something and he didn't.

When we deal with "The WORD of GOD" we must know the difference between "God's Absolutes" and man's "Speculations" even the Speculations of Men recorded in "the Bible" about "GOD" and have The discernment to know The difference. To rightly divide "The Truth" and to put each "Truth" in its proper plan in "Application" pleasing and Approved of GOD.

What Paul did not know for sure was whether John was in his physical body or not when he was caught up to heaven, not that Paul was unsure of John’s experience or testimony.

 

[PloughBoy]

What Paul did not know for sure was whether John was in his physical body or not when he was caught up to heaven, not that Paul was unsure of John’s experience or testimony.

He is actually saying here, I do not really know what it was, if I saw it or if I didn't whether it was true or not so I cannot Boast {or be sure} I have no words to express if I saw some thing real or not but something I believe was there, but there are no words to express if it was something there, did I leave the body or did I remain in the body, I do not no. So I cannot boast and verify anything.

2 Corinthians 12 NASB 1977
1Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable; but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ [Paul speaking in the 3rd. person] who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 3And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows— 4was caught up into Paradise, and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak. 5On behalf of such a man will I boast; BUT ON my own behalf I will not boast, except in regard to my weaknesses.6For if I do wish to boast I shall not be foolish, for I shall be speaking the truth; BUT I refrain from this,So That No One May Credit Me with more than he sees in me or hears from me.
If you read it slow in The 1977 NASB which is more accurate for "the word for Word" that is more word for word in "The Orginal Copied Manuscript" just read it, and do not try to "Interpret: it. {Paul speaking also in the 3rd. person}

He does not know what it was.

1'For I have had a "Theophany" I can explain it to the Tee.
2. For I have had a "Beatific Vision" and walk the Streets of "The New Jerusalem" and made note of that event, hear in a Thread some where here on "talkJesus"
3. I have had "revelations or and inspirations" in song or reading , or theological thoughts

4.. And Have had that which Apostle Paul have describe in "2 Corinthians 12" and I call it, all of the sudden In "ETERNITY" and "The FATHER had me in Conversation, because I was crying, and He Stop everything and ask ? "Why are you Crying" and I did not know, that I was in conversation with Him, Until it all, was over. and I was walking in the woods. And when it was over. I stopped and said" "WHAT WAS THAT"! and I played the event over in My mind. and Clear as Day The whole conversation Played over in My mind, I had Met "The FATHER" and I listen and when He ask me a couple of questions. the questions where: "Why are You Crying" and I told him why, his respond was " I see nothing wrong" my respond: "what do you mean you see nothing wrong" He said. I see nothing wrong. My respond, A christian do not act the way I acted. He said: "WHO CALLED YOU A CHRISTIAN" in a "STENTORIAN TONE"! I responded, those "Pagans' over there in "ATHENS" in The Book of the Acts of the Apostles.

And he said "What did I CALL YOU"! my respond you called me 'Your child". And when I said that. it burst into as if the meaning launch out into a Million Words, and I Iabel that! I called it, it was a "GOD" WORD! IT Launch out what it meant "His CHILD" in one Moment it went into The Billion of what it meant. Just like that! And then I snap out of it. and said "WHAT was THAT'! that happen "9 years" after I got saved after I had A Miraculous Conversion Filled with the Holy Ghost and saw JESUS on the Cross in a Theophany when he Jesus Called my Name! 9 years after that. I met "GOD" I have met "The Parakletos" living in me, I saw Jesus and he called my name, in 1977, And Learn to know what it means for Him to be my "LORD" after He was mY savior, Then He Introduce Me To The Father in 1986, When Father ask me "why are you crying" and I told him why and he responded I see nothing wrong. and he put a tap on that, when I told him, I have messed up and that he could not fix it. he said I see nothing wrong, and I ask him ,then How can you fix it , he said to me "Because "I AM GOD" and that meaning Burst into a "BILLION beyond" all measure of what that meant!


I Have Never Been the same. One guy, I told what happen, he said that I was imagining things, I paid him no mind,,, Then it happen to HIM, one day, He couldn't; believe it, and he cried and he cried before me, he cried and cried. He had meant "The FATHER" after years of knowing and been saved and filled with the Holy Ghost. "For The only Way to The Father is Through the SON" took on a Different meaning> Now it had "SUBSTANCE" instead of, mere words speaking into the air.

it does not matter who believes you when get there, and don't care, if no one believes you and it does not matter. You have no more Faith But You have "TRUST" because you Know He is there. You do not have to believe, You Know, That The Father is REAL. You TRUST , no matter what happens, Live or DIED, get sick or get well, It does not matter. Why? because you Know That "GOD" and that You Are His CHILD and He have talked to you! you do not have to believe it you know! it. if you are sick so what, if you are to died, so what, if you loose everything so what. That is how it is. The doctors in hospital the nurses and the Chaplins , and some church people coming to the Hospital praying that my mother wouldn't;' died, I strengthen Them out big time. My Mother was ready to get out here, And told her I will behind you! "Beaumont Hospital" staff said they never saw anything like it, The Chaplins was crying, we are suppose to be ministering to y'all, Your family is ministering to us.

We are not interested in Church been there and done that , we had become "GOD CENTERED" Like "Hit The Mark" and That Mark is "GOD"! Aiming for the prize.

My Sheep knows my Voice and I know them! and people wonder, how come I be excited! And on fire! How come you ain't? Talking about emotional, I grew up being emotional. I know what emotional is. This IS Way, WAY, WAY , WAY beyond emotional ! There is No name for this!

Paul had no idea what this was! This generation has more words than Paul had, You cannot explain this, "Anthropomorphic" does this a great injustice.

They think I am crazy, One friend or disciple I discipled said =< you took off and was Gone, Only thing I could do was Hold on to Your Spiritual Coat tail and we were GONE, AND I GOT SO HIGH In THE SPIRIT OF GOD, YOU WERE TALKING and I left words and I understood everything you said and I didn't understand what you said about "GOD" but I understood it. The Minister said ; when I talk to you I do not have to go to church, church becomes a downer, and we laugh and laugh. Paul called it T'he third heaven." "Where do one GO, when He passes heaven and reaches "ETERNITY" a place that there is No end.


Amplified Bible
Set your mind and keep focused habitually on the things above [the heavenly things], not on things that are on the earth [which have only temporal value].

 

[B-A-C]

Every scholar I know thinks 2 Cor12 is about Paul himself, not John.

What does 2 Corinthians 12:2 mean? | BibleRef.com

I know a man in Christ, who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven. - What is the meaning of 2 Corinthians 12:2?

www.bibleref.com

https://www.gotquestions.org/Paul-third-heaven.html

When did Paul receive vision of heaven? - BibleTruths

Paul received vision of heaven in Antioch of Syria fourteen years before writing second letter to Corinthians

www.bibletruths.org

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

Sorry guys, Paul did not have split personality disorder. Paul was speaking about John being caught up to heaven and hearing words that he was not allowed to write down or speak.

But believe what you will.

 

[B-A-C]

This proves without a doubt that John received the Revelation much earlier than most believe

It proves without a doubt you have an opinion about it.

Paul was speaking about John being caught up to heaven

If you say so.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

It proves without a doubt you have an opinion about it.

Yes we all have opinions, some are true and some are false. That is why we need the Spirit of Truth to guide us into all Truth.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Sorry guys, Paul did not have split personality disorder. Paul was speaking about John -

Unless, of course, he was speaking of himself. I'll go with that version.

 

[PloughBoy]

I have given "Sound doctrine" and Have describe "Speculations" and "Anthropomorphic", and mention, "theophanies' and "beatific visions", Inspirations and revelations. and lack, of words, because of The era, in which "Apostle Paul" spoke and live in and The language of expression due too lack of creative words, but yet, as if any, have even ran with the Biblical scholars and have even engage in a personal atmosphere with any, in their time of some the best "Theological Scholars" in these United States in American as if they have. and Now those who encage Here, and the most Informed in Theological minds concerning the text at hand.

Now As I have done in the past, with so, some to the best. '"I make My Appeal as Have done with some of The best" I Appeal and I present my case To "The LORD of GLORY"

For no man has every been to "HEAVEN" in mind, in Visions, In revelations. or inspirations. for only One and His name is "JESUS"! and That is where I will Stand and that is where I will be when I meet Him, and I will not say "LORD" I was wrong but now I change my mind, since I am here now, and I apologize for The fuel, that I Instigated about your word, and planted false teachings in your name. that went out,Through the World in the name of JESUS!

So here I still stand, only one knows , what it looks like or even been there in "mind" In "Spirit" in "revelation" or "inspirations" be it "theophany" be it "beatific Visions" or "Christophany" . no one has every been there in such "Capacity" but JESUS "The Son of The LIVING GOD" is The one , been there and knows what, it Looks like.

John 3 BSB
"If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13 NO ONE Has Ascended Into Heaven Except THE ONE WHO DESCENDED FROM HEAVEN— THE SON OF MAN.

We Most Paid Attention To words and How they are Spoken, and who's Mouth Supersedes Another Throughout "The Biblical Text of "Holy Scripture" And Shines Light On Another portion of "the Biblical Text" that is At hand.

Every "Iota" is At Hand.

Since we are dealing here with "Theological Biblical Scholars" So I made my Approach, as Such, a Mere "ploughboy" that drives The Plow with a "One Plow mule" in A One Horse Town.

I am Ploughboy, And I am Plowing deep. and The Field is Fertile and Ripe. And I am ready to plant crop, because I'm going to Seed this ground.

So when you sleep tonight and when you wake up in the Morning. Now, you Fill in The Lines.

Mark 4 ESV
26And he said, “The Kingdom Of God Is as if a man should scatter seed on the ground. 27He Sleeps And Rises Night And Day, And The Seed Sprouts And Grows; He Knows Not How. 28The Earth Produces By Itself, First The Blade, Then The Ear, Then The Full Grain In The Ear. 29But When The Grain Is Ripe, At Once He Puts In The Sickle, Because The Harvest Has Come.”


Now Peter . "Slay and eat"

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

NO ONE Has Ascended Into Heaven Except THE ONE WHO DESCENDED FROM HEAVEN— THE SON OF MAN.

We Most Paid Attention To words and How they are Spoken, and who's Mouth Supersedes Another Throughout "The Biblical Text of "Holy Scripture" And Shines Light On Another portion of "the Biblical Text" that is At hand.

Every "Iota" is At Hand.

Since we are dealing here with "Theological Biblical Scholars" So I made my Approach, as Such, a Mere "ploughboy" that drives The Plow with a "One Plow mule" in A One Horse Town.

I am Ploughboy, And I am Plowing deep. and The Field is Fertile and Ripe. And I am ready to plant crop, because I'm going to Seed this ground.

So when you sleep tonight and when you wake up in the Morning. Now, you Fill in The Lines.

Mark 4 ESV
26And he said, “The Kingdom Of God Is as if a man should scatter seed on the ground. 27He Sleeps And Rises Night And Day, And The Seed Sprouts And Grows; He Knows Not How. 28The Earth Produces By Itself, First The Blade, Then The Ear, Then The Full Grain In The Ear. 29But When The Grain Is Ripe, At Once He Puts In The Sickle, Because The Harvest Has Come.”


Now Peter . "Slay and eat"

Ah, another one who does not understand those words of Jesus. It must be a case of that PHD disorder.

What Jesus is saying in that verse Is that in order for one to receive the Word and words of God, we need not ascend into heaven to receive them, but the Word will come down from heaven, even as Christ came down from the Father in heaven.

Pay attention…

John 3:13 “And no man hath "ascended up" to heaven, but he that "came down" from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” (The Word comes down to dwell in us)

Romans 10:6-8 “But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall "ascend" into heaven? (that is, to bring "Christ down" from above)
7 Or, Who shall "descend" into the deep? (that is, to bring up "Christ" again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? "The word" is nigh thee, even "in" thy mouth, and "in" thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;”

This above also confirms Christ is "the Word", and the very words of God from heaven spoken also by Moses to all of Israel.

Paul in Romans 10:6-8 is pulling these words from Deuteronomy chapter 30 verses 11-14 concerning all the Lord commanded him to speak.”

Deuteronomy 30:11-14​

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King James Version​

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11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.”

The understanding in this I did not receive from men, but from He who comes down from heaven.

 

[PloughBoy]

Ah, another one who does not understand those words of Jesus. It must be a case of that PHD disorder.

What Jesus is saying in that verse Is that in order for one to receive the Word and words of God, we need not ascend into heaven to receive them, but the Word will come down from heaven, even as Christ came down from the Father in heaven.

Pay attention…

John 3:13 “And no man hath "ascended up" to heaven, but he that "came down" from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” (The Word comes down to dwell in us)

Romans 10:6-8 “But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall "ascend" into heaven? (that is, to bring "Christ down" from above)
7 Or, Who shall "descend" into the deep? (that is, to bring up "Christ" again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? "The word" is nigh thee, even "in" thy mouth, and "in" thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;”

This above also confirms Christ is "the Word", and the very words of God from heaven spoken also by Moses to all of Israel.

Paul in Romans 10:6-8 is pulling these words from Deuteronomy chapter 30 verses 11-14 concerning all the Lord commanded him to speak.”

Deuteronomy 30:11-14​

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King James Version​

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11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.”

The understanding in this I did not receive from men, but from He who comes down from heaven.

Our Father does no need an interpreter to speak to His Children, For he is Not A Fool to entrust His Children to any man or the Interpretion of a mere Mortal

Nice try "Kemosabe"

28Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of "The Congregation of God", a which he bought with his own blood. b 29I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears."

…13The man runs away because he is a hired servant and is unconcerned for the sheep. 14Iam the good shepherd. I know My sheep and My sheep know Me, 15just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father. And I lay down My life for the sheep.…

…26But because you are not My sheep, you refuse to believe. 27 My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand.…

For Sir, they will never follow you, no matter how hard you may try. His sheep will not follow you. Neither can you take them, Out of HIS hands.
For you will fail, Although you May enter the Flock

I am PloughBoy

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

Our Father does no need an interpreter to speak to His Children, For he is Not A Fool to entrust His Children to any man or the Interpretion of a mere Mortal

Nice try "Kemosabe"

28Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of "The Congregation of God", a which he bought with his own blood. b 29I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears."

…13The man runs away because he is a hired servant and is unconcerned for the sheep. 14Iam the good shepherd. I know My sheep and My sheep know Me, 15just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father. And I lay down My life for the sheep.…

…26But because you are not My sheep, you refuse to believe. 27 My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand.…

For Sir, they will never follow you, no matter how hard you may try. His sheep will not follow you. Neither can you take them, Out of HIS hands.
For you will fail, Although you May enter the Flock

I am PloughBoy

Then why do receive the testimony of men? The testimony of God is greater. We speak of what we have seen and heard from Him, but no man receives His testimony.

John 3:8-13​

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King James Version​

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8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

Those who resist the Truth spoken by the Holy Spirit also resist the Holy Spirit.

 

[PloughBoy]

Then why do receive the testimony of men? The testimony of God is greater. We speak of what we have seen and heard from Him, but no man receives His testimony.

John 3:8-13​

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King James Version​

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8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

Those who resist the Truth spoken by the Holy Spirit also resist the Holy Spirit.

Are you referring to yourself when you quote this statement:
"We speak of what we have seen and heard from Him" are you not committing "plagiarism"?

King James Bible
"Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbor."

I know what the Bible says, I have many of those, just like the host of my other, brothers and sister in Christ, and The same "Parakletos" that is in them, is in me. and we are in a agreement.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

Are you referring to yourself when you quote this statement:
"We speak of what we have seen and heard from Him" are you not committing "plagiarism"?

King James Bible
"Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbor."

I know what the Bible says, I have many of those, just like the host of my other, brothers and sister in Christ, and The same "Parakletos" that is in them, is in me. and we are in a agreement.

As I told you before I was not taught by men like you, I was taught by Christ. We who are taught by Christ ( not men) speak of what we have seen and heard from Him, but you are unable to receive His testimony.

Why is it that you do not understand my speech?

John 8:43
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Not all who say they are of God know Him, nor have heard Him, because they have not been taught by Him.

Ephesians 4:21
If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: