Money and Sin

[oneup_shroom]

Has anyone else noticed how sin and debt are pretty much interchangeable between translations of the Bible... this is a broad statement for the single reference I'm about to give, but I'm fairly certain that there are other instances of this in the Bible.

Matthew 6:12 - "and forgive us our sins, as we have forgiven those who sin against us." (NLT)
Matthew 6:12 - "and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors." (NIV)

I will try to find more occurrences of this happening, this is the verse that popped the question into my mind though.

In the meantime, it begs a really interesting question.. is monetary debt the same/similar as a sin debt?

whats your opinion?

Is financial debt equal to sin?
Is it okay for Christians to have monetary debt?

Thanks

 

[amadeus2]

"For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows

But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness" I Tim 6:10-11

Money is important to our walk with God if we have made it important:

"Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law." Rom 13:8

You are looking for hard and literal answers where there are not always such literal answers for every person. Jesus told one man:

"... Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me." Luke 18:22

Jesus told that man that because the man's natural riches were too important to him. This is shown by the man's response:

"And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich." Luke 18:23

While this same thing may apply to many men, will it apply to every man? In the OT under the law given to Moses there were black and white rules to follow, but even then it wasn't the literal obedience that mattered as much to God as the attitude of a person's heart:

"O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall show forth thy praise.

For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Psalm 51:15-17

But, your question was about debt. Should a follower of God, of Jesus, be in debt? Isn't the question of why a person is in debt and what he is doing about it more important than the fact that he is in debt?

If he is in debt because he was lusting after something and tried to obtain via money, what would you suppose would be God's take on it?

Even if his debt was incurred for definitely wrong purposes, has his attitude changed? Is he working to remove the debt and has he surrendered himself to a better way of doing things in the eyes of God?

 

[oneup_shroom]

amadeus2, Thank you for the detailed response! I agree and the verses you referenced are a great help to my question.


Yet I'm still left with the question of if financial debt equates sin in a black and white easily determinable fashion.


This is all just my raw thinking so please don't think I am trying to sell some sort of doctrine, just opening conversation.


As amadeus2 mentioned it may not apply to everyone, but I'm not sure how it wouldn't apply. Maybe my logic is incorrect or I am missing some sort of contextual understanding of the following references.


Proverbs 22:7 - "Just as the rich rule the poor, so the borrower is servant to the lender." (NLT)


Matthew 6:24 - "No one can serve two masters. For you will hate one and love the other; you will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money." (NLT)


So lets go down the hypothetical path that my head has gone ahead and constructed. If I am the borrower than I am servant to the lender, or as the NIV translates it, I am slave to the lender. So if I am a slave, than the lender becomes my master and if I cannot server two masters, then being in debt leaves me with the inability to whole fully serve God as my master.


So debt begins leading me away from God into the arms of debt becoming Lord of my life, instead of God, making the debt(or the love of things I cannot afford under my own/God provided means) an Idol. Lets think about this understanding of debt for a moment, is there truly and honestly a good explanation for debt that does not result in Idolatry? I know there are medical debts.. etc that people really don't have control over, but that's not really what I'm talking about here... I'm trying to discuss consumer debt/ anything we have control over buying or not buying. The dictionary definition of Idol is "the worship of idols or excessive devotion to, or reverence for some person or thing"... so the devotion to a person or object is generally known as Idolatry. Can we honestly say that those of us who take on debt are not in some way "devoting" ourselves to the debt, or the possessions we "could not" live without? Even if our devotion is not on an emotional level, we certainly are entering into a binding contract with the lender.


So, if Sin is to "transgress" God or "to step across or go beyond a set boundary or limit" and to hold debt is in my understanding Idolatry...


Ezekiel 23:49 references how God truly feels about Idolatry:


"You will suffer the penalty for your lewdness(obscenity: the trait of behaving in an obscene manner) and bear the consequences of your sins of idolatry. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign Lord.”


Not to mention that Idolatry is part of the Ten Commandments! see Exodus 20.


In conclusion its hard to say that Idolatry is not a sin(transgression), maybe impossible since God is so blatantly clear when referencing it. Yet its easier to say that holding debt is not a sin, because its more of a grey area. Yet I would like to make the argument, at least in my own life, that willfully participating in debt creating actions is in fact a form of Idolatry. It is also a love of money and possessions, not a love of God. In some ways racking up debt even shows that I don't trust in God to provide, I trust the bank a whole lot more than God to come through for me every time I swipe that plastic.


And to finish, unless I am way off in the rough (which I know is very possible...), I'd say at this moment that yeah.. Debt is a black and white transgression against God... therefore a sin.


Some more questions arise if my conclusion about debt is true:


So if Debt is a sin, how the heck are we suppose to live in a modern society without it?
Doesn't our Credit Score (debt score) determine our financial status/ability in the modern world?
Is "good debt" okay? (makes me think of another grey area we struggle with... is oral sex okay as long as we don't go "all the way"?... ... ..)


I don't know everything and don't pretend to... I'm just a young guy trying to figure all this practical stuff out and how God intends for me to live in the world. So I'd like to say again, I am NOT trying to sell a doctrine or anything... just opening the conversation.


Thanks

 

[amadeus2]

...I'm still left with the question of if financial debt equates sin in a black and white easily determinable fashion.

Every person born of woman is, spiritually speaking, effectively dead in the eyes of God. If when a person is first drawn to God, he is already deep in debt to the money lenders of this world, is he lost without hope?

Was it sin when he went into debt? Does it matter, since he was already dead. Until he received the Life which Jesus is nothing mattered in the long run or the short run, because he had no real hope outside of natural life?

Once a person received Life (Jesus) and then while understanding it was the wrong thing to do went into debt, did not his understanding make it sin to him?

As amadeus2 mentioned it may not apply to everyone, but I'm not sure how it wouldn't apply. Maybe my logic is incorrect or I am missing some sort of contextual understanding of the following references.

Proverbs 22:7 - "Just as the rich rule the poor, so the borrower is servant to the lender." (NLT)

What is physical servitude or even slavery to someone with Jesus in his heart? If a person is born in natural slavery, it may not be a good thing in this carnal life, but if along the way he is able to take hold of the real Life which Jesus is, doesn't he have something better than physical freedom? Jesus did not promise us freedom from natural slavery. He promised that we could be free from the bondage of sin:

“And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free

They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.” John 8:32-35

Matthew 6:24 - "No one can serve two masters. For you will hate one and love the other; you will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money." (NLT)


So lets go down the hypothetical path that my head has gone ahead and constructed. If I am the borrower than I am servant to the lender, or as the NIV translates it, I am slave to the lender. So if I am a slave, than the lender becomes my master and if I cannot server two masters, then being in debt leaves me with the inability to whole fully serve God as my master.

Does it really? Why? What is the worst that can happen to a debtor who defaults in the United States? He could lose his home or his car or his computer or whatever he has materially as a result of his debt. If there were still such a thing as a debtor’s prison, would placing him in it make him lose out with God? Not in itself. You talking about your flesh. What ultimately do your flesh and any sufferings of your flesh mean in your walk with God? They mean something certainly to the extent that they were they are more important to you than the things of God:

“But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.” Matt 6:33

So debt begins leading me away from God into the arms of debt becoming Lord of my life, instead of God, making the debt(or the love of things I cannot afford under my own/God provided means) an Idol. Lets think about this understanding of debt for a moment, is there truly and honestly a good explanation for debt that does not result in Idolatry? I know there are medical debts.. etc that people really don't have control over, but that's not really what I'm talking about here... I'm trying to discuss consumer debt/ anything we have control over buying or not buying. The dictionary definition of Idol is "the worship of idols or excessive devotion to, or reverence for some person or thing"... so the devotion to a person or object is generally known as Idolatry. Can we honestly say that those of us who take on debt are not in some way "devoting" ourselves to the debt, or the possessions we "could not" live without? Even if our devotion is not on an emotional level, we certainly are entering into a binding contract with the lender.

Remember the first things first as per Matthew 6:33. If any debt comes between you and God give up the debt and choose God. You say that you cannot because of a contract with men? That is never the truth. You have an obligation to repay the money owed and you do the best that you can, but no reason is a good reason or an acceptable excuse to walk away from God.

So, if Sin is to "transgress" God or "to step across or go beyond a set boundary or limit" and to hold debt is in my understanding Idolatry...

Debt is not idolatry. Very possibly debt is a result of idolatry, but what does repentance mean? It does not mean to be debt-free. It means to ‘turn around’, it means to change your ways from those which have displeased God to His Way. When we first come to God we have baggage, which often is garbage which weighs us down. God will help us get rid of the garbage, if we will allow it.

Similarly when we sin after we have come to God to return to Him, we often bring with us baggage or garbage that weighs us down. Again if He is receiving us back, if He has accepted our repentance, will He not help us deal with the garbage? What is the cost? What if it is a prison term or even the electric chair? What if it is giving up all of our material goods. What if it means becoming a homeless man on the street?

Ezekiel 23:49 references how God truly feels about Idolatry:


"You will suffer the penalty for your lewdness(obscenity: the trait of behaving in an obscene manner) and bear the consequences of your sins of idolatry. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign Lord.”


Not to mention that Idolatry is part of the Ten Commandments! see Exodus 20.


In conclusion its hard to say that Idolatry is not a sin(transgression), maybe impossible since God is so blatantly clear when referencing it. Yet its easier to say that holding debt is not a sin, because its more of a grey area. Yet I would like to make the argument, at least in my own life, that willfully participating in debt creating actions is in fact a form of Idolatry. It is also a love of money and possessions, not a love of God. In some ways racking up debt even shows that I don't trust in God to provide, I trust the bank a whole lot more than God to come through for me every time I swipe that plastic.

Idolatry is a sin, but it is not the unpardonable sin. Idolatry is not equal to debt.

And to finish, unless I am way off in the rough (which I know is very possible...), I'd say at this moment that yeah.. Debt is a black and white transgression against God... therefore a sin.

Wrong! Go back to the first verse I quoted in my first post:


”For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows” I Tim 6:10

Notice that it is not money that is the root of all evil. It is the love of money. It is the love of anything on par with or above our love for God. The sin was never the debt itself. The sin was in loving something so much that we were willing to go against God to get that something that we wanted. So we borrowed money in order to get it. The sin was in going against God. We can repent for that, but along with that we have the baggage of the debt which will be a weight on our back until it is gone. Likely the debt will still be there even after God has forgiven us and taken us back into His fold. We cannot forget that debt. God will forgive us for our debts to men, but the men won’t forget them and neither can we. But… while we are forgiven can we stop working to get where God wants us to be?

"Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law." Rom 13:8

We still owe the money, but while are doing all that we can to “owe no man any thing”, we can indeed be pleasing God. Our efforts please Him. Sometimes He will intervene and help us with the physical debts. He has done it for me, more than once, but we should not count on that happening.

Some more questions arise if my conclusion about debt is true:


So if Debt is a sin, how the heck are we suppose to live in a modern society without it?
Doesn't our Credit Score (debt score) determine our financial status/ability in the modern world?
Is "good debt" okay?

How do you suppose a citizen of Haiti (one of the poorest, if not the poorest of nations) gets along? Did God promise us a house or apartment to live in? Did He promise us computer access to be able to visit the Talk Jesus forum and ask questions? Did He promise us the shirt on our back? How important is this world and how important are the things of this world?

“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.” I John 2:15-17

(makes me think of another grey area we struggle with... is oral sex okay as long as we don't go "all the way"?... ... ..)

In Paul’s penned words: “Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled…” Heb 13:4

The bed that is undefiled is the marriage bed. If the bed you are in is not your marriage bed shared with your spouse, the bed is defiled.

I don't know everything and don't pretend to... I'm just a young guy trying to figure all this practical stuff out and how God intends for me to live in the world. So I'd like to say again, I am NOT trying to sell a doctrine or anything... just opening the conversation.
Thanks

The way we are to live in this world and please God is by living in the Way which God desires. He has provided the means, but the means doesn’t leave us lying on a bed of roses with no thorns. The three Hebrews thrown into a hot furnace in Daniel chapter did not die because God was with them, but God was also with Stephen in Acts chapter 7 when he was stoned to death. The three Hebrews and Stephen pleased God by doing always His will rather than their own.

 

[oneup_shroom]

Hey amadeus2,

Thank you for the detailed response. You are really helping me form my ideas when it comes to debt and sin.

Yet, I think we are both taking different stances when it comes to this situation. I am not trying to say people in debt are sinning, or its a sin to have debt.

What I am trying to understand is that if a Christian, already saved, already in relationship with God, takes on more debt or new debt if that can be considered a Sin.

In my opinion there is no such thing as a unforgivable sin... everything is made new with repentance and washing in the blood.

Some things have physical world consequences that we still have to clean up after being saved. Lets say you lost your virginity before you got married (I did), God may have made me clean, but I still have to live with the consequences and memories of having had sex... God didn't open up my past and erase all that... but he did forgive it. It's just fact that not everything just goes poof when you get saved, some things you have to work on. Not saying its impossible for God to erase everything, just not normal. So as with debt yes it is forgivable, and no you are not sinning trying to get out of debt.

But my real question is specifically for a person in my situation, I find it easiest to relate concepts to my circumstances, and I think that's fairly normal.

Basically my shortened and updated conclusion is... Yes I have debt and I am working to get out of the rest of it... I have repented and am turning a leaf. So I am not sinning just because its still on my credit report. BUT after much research I do believe if I was to go out and get a new credit card and start using credit... I do think that would be a sin... yes it would be forgivable, but it still would be transgressing not only my trust and faith in God to provide, but honestly what I had to have is probably an idol in some way shape or form.

Thanks again, I seriously am enjoying how much detail and references you are using to back up your opinions.

 

[amadeus2]

Hey amadeus2,

Thank you for the detailed response. You are really helping me form my ideas when it comes to debt and sin.

Yet, I think we are both taking different stances when it comes to this situation. I am not trying to say people in debt are sinning, or its a sin to have debt.

What I am trying to understand is that if a Christian, already saved, already in relationship with God, takes on more debt or new debt if that can be considered a Sin.

In that situation it likely would be a sin for a person who knowing what God thinks goes ahead and does it anyway.

In my opinion there is no such thing as a unforgivable sin... everything is made new with repentance and washing in the blood.

Oh, there is an unforgivable sin as per scripture:

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." Matt 12:31-32

To sin against the Holy Ghost, however, I believe it is very necessary to understand exactly what it means to sin against the Holy Ghost. Other sins can be committed in ignorance, but not that one. That is my opinion.

Some things have physical world consequences that we still have to clean up after being saved. Lets say you lost your virginity before you got married (I did), God may have made me clean, but I still have to live with the consequences and memories of having had sex... God didn't open up my past and erase all that... but he did forgive it.

This is a major difference between us (all men) and Jesus. Jesus was the Word of God and the Holy Spirit was in Him always. We, all of us, sinned and formed habits which if not sin themselves, led us to sin repeatedly. Those habits did not suddenly disappear when we repented and were drawn in to God. Our history can be our downfall, We need God's help to overcome our history including any bad habits we took on before meeting the Master.

But, Jesus said,

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." Matt 7:7-8

It's just fact that not everything just goes poof when you get saved, some things you have to work on. Not saying its impossible for God to erase everything, just not normal. So as with debt yes it is forgivable, and no you are not sinning trying to get out of debt.

Now I believe that you are on the right track. I have never been a smoker, but I believe I understand the difficulty that some people have when they seriously decide to quit. The road with that as with recovering from debt and not getting into further debt is a difficult one, but God is able.

But my real question is specifically for a person in my situation, I find it easiest to relate concepts to my circumstances, and I think that's fairly normal.

Basically my shortened and updated conclusion is... Yes I have debt and I am working to get out of the rest of it... I have repented and am turning a leaf. So I am not sinning just because its still on my credit report. BUT after much research I do believe if I was to go out and get a new credit card and start using credit... I do think that would be a sin... yes it would be forgivable, but it still would be transgressing not only my trust and faith in God to provide, but honestly what I had to have is probably an idol in some way shape or form.

All of us who still sin at all have a problem that needs to be overcome. The following verse sums up the problems of men:

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16

If we have an idol or idols it is because of the things mentioned in that verse. The world containing the lust of the flesh and the eyes and the pride of life is the little bit of earth each of us occupies. Remember, we were made from a little bit of dirt, a little bit of the world: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Gen 2:7