Mortal and Venial sins

[KingJ]

What is your take on mortal and venial sins for a Christian?

I believe Catholics have this correct. Not sure why Protestants do not teach it. I am not proposing a discussion on Purgatory. Just on grievous vs non grievous sins. For a Christian is sin really equal to sin? I am so tired of hearing that phrase!

My random points:

1. The entire OT is evidence of mortal and venial sins. God did not destroy Sodom for thinking bad thoughts. Sorcerers were burnt at they stake. Murderers stoned to death. Those disrespecting the Sabbath were excommunicated.

God does not change. If something upset Him such that He ordain the person be put to death for it. We need to pay full attention to what exactly that sin was!

2. If we read 1 Cor 5 we see that Paul is warning us of sins among sins.

1 Cor 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate.

3. Paul warns us of sins that if we are found active in we will not be in heaven in 1 Cor 6:9-11. Now what is interesting for me on this verse is the build up to it. From verse one Paul is urging us to judge properly! So when we hit the sins mentioned we should grasp that he is talking about a murderer that will not hesitate to murder. A thief that will steal from an old lady without blinking. People sold out to these sins. Paul would not be impressed with us if we conclude that all who steal are thieves sold out to this sin....after he told us to discern better then the world.

4. Many quote Matt 5 on sins. ''All sin = sin for a Christian''. Jesus made it clear in Matt 5:28 that if we just think of adultery we have sinned. But when we read four verses down in vs 32 we see that Jesus qualifies His statement by saying 'except for actual adultery' we shouldn't divorce. Meaning that Jesus is making a point apart from mortal and venial sins in most of Matt 5. Namely that no sin is in God's presence. This is something we have all known from day one when Adam and Eve were removed from the garden. Knowing that no sin is in God's presence does not mean we can ignore the significance of mortal and venial sins.

5. Rom 7:15 'What I do I hate'. Was Paul referring to murdering Christians?

6. OT Abrahams Bosom and Hades. What sins did those in Hades commit that those in AB did not? They were all sinners.

 

[amadeus2]

In your post you did not really define the difference between what you call mortal and venial sins. The former speaks, I believe, of a sin for which the punishment is death. The latter would speak of sins somewhat lesser in severity for which death is not the punishment. Does this really correspond to what scripture describes?

In the OT there was a premeditated sin and a sin of ignorance. The premeditated sin was punishable by death and there was usually no atonement provided. On the other hand when a person became aware of his sin of ignorance he then had to pay the price of whatever sacrifice the law prescribed.

"And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;

Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned." Lev 4:27-28

"But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him." Numb 15:30-31

The premeditated or presumptuous sin really relates more the unforgivable sin of the NT than to your mortal sin. The sin of ignorance may relate to both your mortal and your venial sin, but if the sin of ignorance when it becomes known is ignored is not the punishment also death?

Has God ever changed in this respect? Is not the wages of any unrepented sin death?

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Rom 6:23

 

[Bendito]

What is your take on mortal and venial sins for a Christian?

I believe Catholics have this correct. Not sure why Protestants do not teach it. I am not proposing a discussion on Purgatory. Just on grievous vs non grievous sins. For a Christian is sin really equal to sin? I am so tired of hearing that phrase!

My random points:

1. The entire OT is evidence of mortal and venial sins. God did not destroy Sodom for thinking bad thoughts. Sorcerers were burnt at they stake. Murderers stoned to death. Those disrespecting the Sabbath were excommunicated.

God does not change. If something upset Him such that He ordain the person be put to death for it. We need to pay full attention to what exactly that sin was!

2. If we read 1 Cor 5 we see that Paul is warning us of sins among sins.

1 Cor 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate.

3. Paul warns us of sins that if we are found active in we will not be in heaven in 1 Cor 6:9-11. Now what is interesting for me on this verse is the build up to it. From verse one Paul is urging us to judge properly! So when we hit the sins mentioned we should grasp that he is talking about a murderer that will not hesitate to murder. A thief that will steal from an old lady without blinking. People sold out to these sins. Paul would not be impressed with us if we conclude that all who steal are thieves sold out to this sin....after he told us to discern better then the world.

4. Many quote Matt 5 on sins. ''All sin = sin for a Christian''. Jesus made it clear in Matt 5:28 that if we just think of adultery we have sinned. But when we read four verses down in vs 32 we see that Jesus qualifies His statement by saying 'except for actual adultery' we shouldn't divorce. Meaning that Jesus is making a point apart from mortal and venial sins in most of Matt 5. Namely that no sin is in God's presence. This is something we have all known from day one when Adam and Eve were removed from the garden. Knowing that no sin is in God's presence does not mean we can ignore the significance of mortal and venial sins.

5. Rom 7:15 'What I do I hate'. Was Paul referring to murdering Christians?

6. OT Abrahams Bosom and Hades. What sins did those in Hades commit that those in AB did not? They were all sinners.

What does the Word say? If you are guilty of one sin, you are guilty of all.
James 2:10 (CJB)
10 For a person who keeps the whole Torah, yet stumbles at one point, has become guilty of breaking them all

You used the Roman Catholic bible so what does it say?
James 2:10 (DRA)
10 And whosoever shall keep the whole law, but offend in one point, is become guilty of all.

If you are guilty of all sin, why differentiate. Get right with God and live as the righteousness of God that you are since you are saved.

 

[Chad]

If you are guilty of all sin, why differentiate. Get right with God and live as the righteousness of God that you are since you are saved.

Bingo, you said it well brother. I agree on this.

It doesn't matter what "type" of sin or the degree, we're all deserving of hell apart of God's grace through Jesus Christ. Simple as that, the biblical truth from GOD Himself. There's no reason to waste time on these subjects.

Romans 3:23
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Ephesians 2:8
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

 

[KingJ]

1. In your post you did not really define the difference between what you call mortal and venial sins. The former speaks, I believe, of a sin for which the punishment is death. The latter would speak of sins somewhat lesser in severity for which death is not the punishment. Does this really correspond to what scripture describes?

2. Has God ever changed in this respect? Is not the wages of any unrepented sin death?

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Rom 6:23

1. Yes, mortal is a sin leading unto death and venial not. I just want to discuss grievous vs non grievous. Mortal does simply mean grievous. Many venial sins can become grievous and then many grievous sins may not be mortal sins. As you explained with intent.

2. Would one know to repent of venial sins? I am speaking of the guy on an island. God only paid Cain a visit and excommunicated him when he murdered. Is our love for sin and hatred for evil full measure if we hate mortal sins? Does hating and not committing mortal sins not show a heart after God's?

 

[KingJ]

What does the Word say? If you are guilty of one sin, you are guilty of all.
James 2:10 (CJB)
10 For a person who keeps the whole Torah, yet stumbles at one point, has become guilty of breaking them all

You used the Roman Catholic bible so what does it say?
James 2:10 (DRA)
10 And whosoever shall keep the whole law, but offend in one point, is become guilty of all.

If you are guilty of all sin, why differentiate. Get right with God and live as the righteousness of God that you are since you are saved.

Yes, but we need to grasp that sin NEVER equaled hell. Loving sin does John 3:19. For which being in mortal sin points too. There were those in death in Abrahams bosom and those in death in Hades OT.

 

[KingJ]

Bingo, you said it well brother. I agree on this.

It doesn't matter what "type" of sin or the degree, we're all deserving of hell apart of God's grace through Jesus Christ. Simple as that, the biblical truth from GOD Himself. There's no reason to waste time on these subjects.

Romans 3:23
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Ephesians 2:8
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

We are all deserving of death for sin. Not hell. Hell is for those whose sin is 'full measure'. The free gift of salvation for those in death in Abrahams bosom was when God took them from there to heaven. They got themselves to AB over Hades. We must understand that.

 

[Bendito]

1. Yes, mortal is a sin leading unto death and venial not. I just want to discuss grievous vs non grievous. Mortal does simply mean grievous. Many venial sins can become grievous and then many grievous sins may not be mortal sins. As you explained with intent.

2. Would one know to repent of venial sins? I am speaking of the guy on an island. God only paid Cain a visit and excommunicated him when he murdered. Is our love for sin and hatred for evil full measure if we hate mortal sins? Does hating and not committing mortal sins not show a heart after God's?

KingJ Its man that quantifies sin God does not. In the bible sin is sin. All sin is the same...Sin
Here's a three step plan for dealing with it. Admit it, quit it, and forget it. Of course Admitting in includes asking for forgiveness. Quit it means turn your back on that behavior and going the other way. And forget it because God will too

 

[KingJ]

KingJ Its man that quantifies sin God does not. In the bible sin is sin. All sin is the same...Sin
Here's a three step plan for dealing with it. Admit it, quit it, and forget it. Of course Admitting in includes asking for forgiveness. Quit it means turn your back on that behavior and going the other way. And forget it because God will too

God most certainly does. It takes a depth of intent for evil to commit a mortal sin. God sees that depth of intent, we see the mortal sin. There are obviously times that we see a mortal sin and God does not see a depth of intent for evil. So we obviously vote for life and not capital punishment as all living surely still have hope of coming right with God. But we acknowledge that when we Christians get on our knees and judge ourselves .....that we must certainly not be in a sin that God ordained as deserving of capital punishment In the OT. God does not change.

Not all crimes OT resulted in capital punishment. It pleased God that those refusing circumcision be excommunicated and not stoned to death. There was capital punishment, excommunication and corporal punishment. Crimes and Punishments - Holman Bible Dictionary - - StudyLight.org

 

[Bendito]

God most certainly does. It takes a depth of intent for evil to commit a mortal sin. God sees that depth of intent, we see the mortal sin. There are obviously times that we see a mortal sin and God does not see a depth of intent for evil. So we obviously vote for life and not capital punishment as all living surely still have hope of coming right with God. But we acknowledge that when we Christians get on our knees and judge ourselves .....that we must certainly not be in a sin that God ordained as deserving of capital punishment In the OT. God does not change.

Not all crimes OT resulted in capital punishment. It pleased God that those refusing circumcision be excommunicated and not stoned to death. There was capital punishment, excommunication and corporal punishment. Crimes and Punishments - Holman Bible Dictionary - - StudyLight.org

My friend You're still spouting your catechism book. What does the bible say? It says sin is sin

 

[KingJ]

What does the bible say? It says sin is sin

Where does it say that? If you are thinking of James 2:10 you are simply making a reading blunder.

 

[KingJ]

James 2:10 For a person who keeps the whole Torah, yet stumbles at one point, has become guilty of breaking them all.

....ie God's righteous requirement is far above ours....ie..nobody deserves to be in heaven.

Nobody deserving to be in heaven ...does not automatically translate into all deserving hell / God being 100% partial and selecting a few for heaven...is that what you believe?

Then, what is your take on 1 John 5:16? If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.

 

[Bendito]

Where does it say that? If you are thinking of James 2:10 you are simply making a reading blunder.

The wages of sin is death. All sin. However there is only one sin mentioned in the bible that is not forgivable. If I want to be categorical I could say that one sin is worse than another based on consequences On the other hand, if the wages of sin is death it would not matter what sin one commits, it leads to death. Based on consequences, one sin could easily be worse than another. Rape is far worse than stealing candy. Lying is far worse than deliberately breaking a window. But either way, the ultimate price has to be paid. All praise to Jesus who paid that price for us!

Ok Looking at sin as a category I concede that one sin can be worse than another.......in consequence

How about looking at it this way too. If you're not living by faith in every Word that comes out of Gods mouth. You're in sin because "That which is not of faith is sin".
If you're living a live without righteousness, as above you're in sin because that which is not righteousness is sin.

Now look at it this way. The strength of sin is the law. Now that we are not under the law, we are dead to sin. That means that sin no longer has any power over us. It means that we so not have to sin. We can choose righteousness all the time. We can choose to walk sinless.

So we're focusing on sin. Why? We should be focusing on the fact that we are the Righteousness of God in Christ, and stay there.

 

[KingJ]

1. The wages of sin is death. All sin. However there is only one sin mentioned in the bible that is not forgivable. If I want to be categorical I could say that one sin is worse than another based on consequences On the other hand, if the wages of sin is death it would not matter what sin one commits, it leads to death. Based on consequences, one sin could easily be worse than another. Rape is far worse than stealing candy. Lying is far worse than deliberately breaking a window. But either way, the ultimate price has to be paid. All praise to Jesus who paid that price for us!

Ok Looking at sin as a category I concede that one sin can be worse than another.......in consequence

2. How about looking at it this way too. If you're not living by faith in every Word that comes out of Gods mouth. You're in sin because "That which is not of faith is sin". If you're living a live without righteousness, as above you're in sin because that which is not righteousness is sin.

Now look at it this way. The strength of sin is the law. Now that we are not under the law, we are dead to sin. That means that sin no longer has any power over us. It means that we so not have to sin. We can choose righteousness all the time. We can choose to walk sinless.

3. So we're focusing on sin. Why? We should be focusing on the fact that we are the Righteousness of God in Christ, and stay there.

1. You need to understand that a state of death and going to hell for eternity are separate issues. It is not the same thing.

Then who is to say there will not be levels of punishment in hell. There is so much scripture urging us to judge matters properly / better then the world....yet we expect God to fail? Rom 2:6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done''.

2. Yes, Christians are new creations 2 Cor 5:17. Sin is now against our nature. This does not mean we don't sin though Rom 7:15. It just means we hate it. Our hatred for what is evil hit a depth of intent that God saw as acceptable so He drew near to us (James 4:8) and revealed Jesus to us (1 Cor 12:3). Whenever someone wants to repent (hates sin), God pays them a visit. We just have to grasp that when Paul wrote Rom 7:15 he was not referring to the mortal sin of murdering Christians. As that would point to a heart that does not hate sin / want to be a new creation / is drawing near to God.

3. We are told by Paul to judge ourselves 1 Cor 11:31 and continue to work out our salvation in fear and trembling Phil 2:12. So that we don't become too confident 1 Cor 10:12. We do this by getting on our knees daily and questioning our motivations / depth of evil sunk to commit the sins we did during the day. Now if we are having to constantly rebuke ourselves for ....the mortal sin of adultery....I would say our marriage to our spouse is in dire straits.

 

[Bendito]

1. You need to understand that a state of death and going to hell for eternity are separate issues. It is not the same thing.

Then who is to say there will not be levels of punishment in hell. There is so much scripture urging us to judge matters properly / better then the world....yet we expect God to fail? Rom 2:6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done''.

2. Yes, Christians are new creations 2 Cor 5:17. Sin is now against our nature. This does not mean we don't sin though Rom 7:15. It just means we hate it. Our hatred for what is evil hit a depth of intent that God saw as acceptable so He drew near to us (James 4:8) and revealed Jesus to us (1 Cor 12:3). Whenever someone wants to repent (hates sin), God pays them a visit. We just have to grasp that when Paul wrote Rom 7:15 he was not referring to the mortal sin of murdering Christians. As that would point to a heart that does not hate sin / want to be a new creation / is drawing near to God.

3. We are told by Paul to judge ourselves 1 Cor 11:31 and continue to work out our salvation in fear and trembling Phil 2:12. So that we don't become too confident 1 Cor 10:12. We do this by getting on our knees daily and questioning our motivations / depth of evil sunk to commit the sins we did during the day. Now if we are having to constantly rebuke ourselves for ....the mortal sin of adultery....I would say our marriage to our spouse is in dire straits.

I am fully

1. You need to understand that a state of death and going to hell for eternity are separate issues. It is not the same thing.

Then who is to say there will not be levels of punishment in hell. There is so much scripture urging us to judge matters properly / better then the world....yet we expect God to fail? Rom 2:6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done''.

2. Yes, Christians are new creations 2 Cor 5:17. Sin is now against our nature. This does not mean we don't sin though Rom 7:15. It just means we hate it. Our hatred for what is evil hit a depth of intent that God saw as acceptable so He drew near to us (James 4:8) and revealed Jesus to us (1 Cor 12:3). Whenever someone wants to repent (hates sin), God pays them a visit. We just have to grasp that when Paul wrote Rom 7:15 he was not referring to the mortal sin of murdering Christians. As that would point to a heart that does not hate sin / want to be a new creation / is drawing near to God.

3. We are told by Paul to judge ourselves 1 Cor 11:31 and continue to work out our salvation in fear and trembling Phil 2:12. So that we don't become too confident 1 Cor 10:12. We do this by getting on our knees daily and questioning our motivations / depth of evil sunk to commit the sins we did during the day. Now if we are having to constantly rebuke ourselves for ....the mortal sin of adultery....I would say our marriage to our spouse is in dire straits.

1 I do understand that death and an eternity in hell are different. How could I not?
I don't really think that it makes much difference about different level of punishment in hell, unless you plan on going to hell?

2 You're wrong here. As new creations we are DEAD to sin. That means we so not have to sin. YOU get to choose whether or not you will sin. Yes we hate it but how often have you given in to sin because its the easiest way to go? Yup. We all have, haven' t we? Yes we hate it but we still choose the way of least resistance.

You say that because we hate sin that God comes to us? It says in James 4:8 that if we come to Him He will meet us. He'll come to us too. It says nothing of our 'sin state' In context.....
James 4:7-10 (CJB)
7 Therefore, submit to God. Moreover, take a stand against the Adversary, and he will flee from you. 8 Come close to God, and he will come close to you. Clean your hands, sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded people! 9 Wail, mourn, sob! Let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy into gloom! 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.
It says here that whenever someone wants to be close to God and moves in that direction then God comes closer to that person. Then the repentance comes into play and He will clean you up.

3. LOL I was just pondering this verse in my devotions this morning.. Along the lines of "We are saved by grace....." If I am already saved, why do I have to work out my salvation? I enjoy this question, I've thought about it many times.
You said "We do this by getting on our knees daily and questioning our motivations / depth of evil sunk to commit the sins we did during the day. Now if we are having to constantly rebuke ourselves for....adultery? No. Look at the verse....It says "work out (cultivate, carry out to the goal, and fully complete) your own salvation" God says we are free from sin. So when temptation comes, what do we do? Succumb to it? No of course not. We tell ourselves what God already told us..That we are dead to sin and don't have to do that. We send the tempter away! Post haste! When sickness tries to take us, remind ourselves that by Jesus stripes we are the healed and no demon of hell can make us sick. And we walk in health. We live by the Word of God, not by what we see or what the enemy tells us.
This verse tells us to work it out not to beat on ourselves for doing wrong. If we do sin, what are we to do? Go to Him, confess the sin and get it dealt with!
1 John 1:9 (KJV)
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Do you really think there is a sin that God cannot handle? Do you think God cares if its mortal or venial? Sin is something He wants us free from. As a Christian do you really think that you will blaspheme the Holy Spirit? That possibility is not even worth considering if you're looking to get closer to our God. It won't happen.

 

[KingJ]

Ok Looking at sin as a category I concede that one sin can be worse than another.......in consequence

Correct. Now consider how the sin we are committing points to how much we love sin.

Example:

If I slap you. It will be a red mark on your cheek that will disappear after a day. But If you cut your face, it is a scar for life. The first 'sin' shows 1-2/10 anger / love of what is evil. The second shows 8/10 evil. If I was guilty of the first, I may be invited to your birthday party. But the second, not a chance, you will believe and know I hate you.

Now note that you can reply with ''we can repent of all sin''. Of course we can. But the context is Christians judging themselves. Christians are Christians because they have already repented of all their sins.

 

[KingJ]

You say that because we hate sin that God comes to us? It says in James 4:8 that if we come to Him He will meet us. He'll come to us too. It says nothing of our 'sin state' In context.....
James 4:7-10 (CJB)
7 Therefore, submit to God. Moreover, take a stand against the Adversary, and he will flee from you. 8 Come close to God, and he will come close to you. Clean your hands, sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded people!

You have only read and quoted the first line of James 4:8. The second line is crystal clear on 'how' we draw near to God. We hate what is evil, by washing our hands and purifying our hearts.

3. LOL I was just pondering this verse in my devotions this morning.. Along the lines of "We are saved by grace....." If I am already saved, why do I have to work out my salvation? I enjoy this question, I've thought about it many times.
You said "We do this by getting on our knees daily and questioning our motivations / depth of evil sunk to commit the sins we did during the day. Now if we are having to constantly rebuke ourselves for....adultery? No. Look at the verse....It says "work out (cultivate, carry out to the goal, and fully complete) your own salvation" God says we are free from sin.

Scripture does not say we are ''free from sin''. As a Christian we are free from the ''punishment'' of sin. Jesus received that on the cross.

So when temptation comes, what do we do? Succumb to it? No of course not. We tell ourselves what God already told us..That we are dead to sin and don't have to do that. We send the tempter away! Post haste!

There are levels of temptation. Most of us can easily resist temptation for mortal sins. But not all venial sins. It is impossible to do this today. You just need to watch one show on television, and you will be guilty of a few venial sins.

When sickness tries to take us, remind ourselves that by Jesus stripes we are the healed and no demon of hell can make us sick. And we walk in health. We live by the Word of God, not by what we see or what the enemy tells us.

Sickness is a separate topic.

This verse tells us to work it out not to beat on ourselves for doing wrong. If we do sin, what are we to do? Go to Him, confess the sin and get it dealt with!
1 John 1:9 (KJV)
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Agreed. But, if we have to keep repenting of a mortal sin, do you think we are able to truly repent?

God judges' heart and mind for true repentance Jer 17:9-12.

Do you really think there is a sin that God cannot handle?

No.

Do you think God cares if its mortal or venial?

Yes. Read Leviticus and the scripture given in the OP.

Sin is something He wants us free from. As a Christian do you really think that you will blaspheme the Holy Spirit? That possibility is not even worth considering if you're looking to get closer to our God. It won't happen.

Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is more then merely saying ''curse the Holy Spirit''. It is a sin of rejection of the Holy Spirit. Since the Holy Spirit is here to lead us into all truth and reveal Jesus to us, it is on par with rejecting Jesus.

 

[KingJ]

Bumped this thread as I don't want to create a new one or derail others.

Many today are talking about self-evaluation. Making sure you are a Christian.

We do so by judging ourselves. When we judge ourselves, we look at what sins we are battling with. IE Mortal verse Venial. Is this not a 'Duh' fact?

I feel many Christians are hung up on 'Sin being sin' and therefore honestly have absolutely no clue how to judge themselves, let alone others.

1 Cor 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves.

I am going to be blunt and hope you will too.

We all sin. Daily!!!!!

If there was a so-called Christian at the pulpit who was active in the sin of murder, rape, adultery, paedophilia or scamming people out of their life savings, I would walk out the church.

However, if there was a Christian at the pulpit guilty of the thoughts of murder and what not else, I would stay seated and listen.

Jesus says thoughts are a sin in Matt 5:28 but then qualifies Himself four verses later (in case any misinterpret Him) where He states that one must not divorce unless there is actual adultery Matt 5:32.

I believe so many fail at self-assessment as they do not recognize the significance of mortal and venial sins.