New questions

[Janette]

1) If Adam, Eve, and Satan were *perfect*, how was it *possible* for them to sin?

2) I understand baptism isn't required to be Christian...but what exactly is baptism for (as in what does it do?)

3) Why did God need anyone to die (let alone His own Son) to "pay" for the existence of sin?

 

[ladylovesJesus]

Hi Janet

Here is some information for you to read;

Why did Jesus have to die in order for me to go to heaven?
Because the wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23). Though Jesus never sinned (1 Peter. 2:22), He bore our sins in His body on the cross (1 Peter. 2:24), and died in our place. Instead of God making us pay for our sins, He did it Himself by becoming one of us.
Two things happen when we sin: one to God and one to ourselves. When we sin, God is offended. Why? Because it is His Law that we are breaking. Also, when we sin, we are killed. We don't die right there on the spot, we will face a death that is far more severe. Sin kills us (Rom. 6:23) by causing eternal separation from God (Isaiah 59:2). God hates sin (Hab. 1:13), and sin must be punished. Since we are unable to please God because we are all sinners, He made an offering that is pleasing to Him. That offering was the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. There was no other way. If there were, God would have done it.

What is salvation?
Salvation is the forgiveness of sins. It is only accomplished through faith in Jesus as Savior. He died on the cross for sins. If you want salvation, you need to trust in what Jesus did on the cross. Only then can you have eternal life and be with God.
Salvation is saving a person from damnation. Damnation is judgment upon the sinner. This judgment consists of God condemning the sinner to eternal punishment in hell. This is the destination of all who reject God's provision for the forgiveness of sins. If you want salvation, then you need to recognize that you are a sinner and ask Jesus to forgive you. He will.
What do I do to get saved?
Salvation is a free gift of God (Rom. 6:23). Jesus bore sin in His body (1 Pet. 2:24), and paid the penalty for breaking the Law of God, which is spiritual death (eternal separation from God). If you want salvation, you need to admit that you are a sinner and that you want Jesus to forgive you of your sins. You must acknowledge that there is nothing you can do to earn forgiveness. Pray and ask Him to forgive you. You need to trust in Jesus. Seek Him; He will save you.
Repentance is part of salvation. Once saved, you should stop doing those things that are displeasing to God. He will live in you and give you the ability and desire to resist sin (1 Cor. 10:13). When you are saved, expect to change -- for the better.
Is baptism necessary for salvation?
No. Faith in Jesus is sufficient for salvation. You don't have to do anything. Christ has done it all. However, baptism is very important and all believers should be baptized. If you refuse baptism after salvation, I would doubt your conversion.
There are Christian denominations that believe baptism is necessary for salvation. The arguments used, on the surface, seem to be powerful. However, upon examination, baptism is found to occur after conversion, and is not in any way a cause or part of it. Take, for example, Acts 10:44-47. While Peter was witnessing, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message...and they were hearing them speaking in tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"
This passage shows that baptism happens after salvation. How do we know they were saved? They were speaking in tongues -- which is a gift from God (1 Cor. 14) to believers and they were exalting God. Non-believers do not exalt God. Also, Peter said they had received the Holy Spirit. That is only for Christians, and it happened before baptism. (Note: speaking in tongues is simply a sign of salvation. It is not necessary that a Christian speak in tongues as a proof of salvation. Not all speak in tongues (1 Cor. 12:30).
Another set of verses applicable to this issue is 1 Cor. 1:17. Paul says, "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." The gospel is what saves, and it is explained in 1 Cor. 15:1-4. Baptism is not part of the gospel; it is something that the believer does after salvation.
Baptism is only a symbol of that which saves, and symbols don't save.


God bless :rose: :rainbow:

 

[Nigh]

2) ...but what exactly is baptism for (as in what does it do?)

Baptism expresses your conversion to being a follower of Jesus. It's like putting on a new uniform when you've signed a contract with another team. You couldn't wear your old uniform while playing for the new team...the uniform shows what team you're on, but it does nothing to make you play better, or handle contract negotiations or anything else for that matter. Being baptised doesn't DO anything other than show the world that you have already made the decision to follow Christ.

3) Why did God need anyone to die (let alone His own Son) to "pay" for the existence of sin?

God had set the law long before Jesus was born. He said that a lamb must be sacrificed for our sins...not just any lamb, but a spotless lamb, the best lamb that you had. So if God were to forgive you (or me, or anyone) a lamb must be sacrificed. That was the law. Jesus was spotless (free of sin) and perfect in a way no lamb ever had been, or could be again. This was needed to forgive so many people. For He died for all of us, so that we could be forgiven. Awesome! Understand He didn't die to pay for the existence of sin, but for the committing of sin by you and I. All of sin still exists and will continue to exist. His sacrifice was specifically for each individuals sin if he or she chooses to except that sacrifice.

Therefore, if God said a lamb must be sacrificed, and He chose a different way to forgive you and I, then He would be breaking His own law. That would be UNjust, and God is not UNjust, he is just. The very fact that He is not crooked, or willing to bend the law for even one man, the fact that He is perfectly just...a perfect judge, means that a sacrifice MUST happen in order to save us. Who else could be a spotless enough lamb to atone for all the world but God's only begotten Son?

Blessings,
Nigh

 

[Janette]

ok that partially covers it.

Ok...baptism cleared up I think. I'd had someone try to explain to me that this was the moment you were accepting the holy spirit into you.

I guess I was trying to ask why God made death the price to pay for sin as opposed to um...I dunno something else. But if you explain death (without salvation) as an eternal separation from God...I would think just knowing it would be *eternal* would make that sepration feel like Hell, with or without any additional torment.

I'm still confused about how Adam and Eve could be perfect and yet sin against God.

Isn't sin only in us because we are imperfect?

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Ok...baptism cleared up I think. I'd had someone try to explain to me that this was the moment you were accepting the holy spirit into you.

I guess I was trying to ask why God made death the price to pay for sin as opposed to um...I dunno something else. But if you explain death (without salvation) as an eternal separation from God...I would think just knowing it would be *eternal* would make that sepration feel like Hell, with or without any additional torment.

I'm still confused about how Adam and Eve could be perfect and yet sin against God.

Isn't sin only in us because we are imperfect?

God designed Adam and Eve (and the rest of us) to have amazingly complicated and efficient bodies with the gift of free will for us to use as we lead our lives. That design is perfect.

When one buys a new automobile and takes delivery from the dealer. it is presumed that the vehicle is perfect from the standpoint that all its components are functioning properly. If the car's owner goes speeding down the road in it, makes a steering error, loses control, and the car is damaged heavily, the car's design cannot be faulted. Driver error is the cause of the wreck.

In the same way, the fact that Adam and Eve, using their free will, allowed Satan to dupe them into disobeying God, thus introducing sin into the world, does not make God's design for human beings imperfect. "Driver" error is the problem.


SLE

 

[PrayzChrist]

Ok...baptism cleared up I think. I'd had someone try to explain to me that this was the moment you were accepting the holy spirit into you.

I guess I was trying to ask why God made death the price to pay for sin as opposed to um...I dunno something else. But if you explain death (without salvation) as an eternal separation from God...I would think just knowing it would be *eternal* would make that sepration feel like Hell, with or without any additional torment.

I'm still confused about how Adam and Eve could be perfect and yet sin against God.

Isn't sin only in us because we are imperfect?

Depends on how one defines "perfect." Adam and Eve were perfect in that God created them as He intended to. They were "good." Most people make the jump that them being "good" must mean they were "perfect" morally. This is clearly impossible, otherwise they would never have sinned in the first place. So then, how could God have called them "good?" Innoncence is a good thing. Adam and Eve were created morally innocent.

God cannot create morally perfect beings, because that would make them divine because God's nature is divine which makes it perfect implicitly. Divinity cannot be created or produced; it simply is. This means it is simply impossible to create a morally perfect being, because divinity cannot be created because only God is divine.

Essentially, moral perfection is on the same level as omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence. These characteristics simply cannot be reproduced because they are characteristics only held by God, making them divine, and, to repeat what was said before, divinity cannot be created.

As such, all moral agents, besides God, have a moral imperfection. However, all things God directly creates are innocent, so they are, in fact, morally good, just not perfect. However, moral imperfection is a weakness, so Lucifer preyed on this moral weakness (in the form of temptation). One can surmise this imperfection (i.e. weakness) shows itself when presented with a choice between a morally good and bad action coupled with temptation towards the wrong action. When this happens, one should suspect, when the moral agent is innocent of the knowledge of good and evil, the moral agent will inevitability choose the wrong action.

Hope this helps.

 

[Janette]

It sounds like there's a misuse of "perfect" going on, or that English needs (but lacks) two separate words, one for "perfect" as it applies to Adam and Eve (as in built completely "right" according to God's plan) and another for "Perfect" (capitalization intentional) as it applies to God (in an absolute, complete, and moral sense).

So this is a tangent, but then...

Is this Perfection, which cannot be created, the reason many refer to the Holy Spirit and the Christ as being "Divine" yet "set-apart" from God? That rather than being *created* by God (and therefore somehow "less" than God) these ... aspects? (not the right word but I don't know a better one) of God would be co-equal and co-eternal with the Father?

 

[PrayzChrist]

It sounds like there's a misuse of "perfect" going on, or that English needs (but lacks) two separate words, one for "perfect" as it applies to Adam and Eve (as in built completely "right" according to God's plan) and another for "Perfect" (capitalization intentional) as it applies to God (in an absolute, complete, and moral sense).

So this is a tangent, but then...

Is this Perfection, which cannot be created, the reason many refer to the Holy Spirit and the Christ as being "Divine" yet "set-apart" from God? That rather than being *created* by God (and therefore somehow "less" than God) these ... aspects? (not the right word but I don't know a better one) of God would be co-equal and co-eternal with the Father?

Moral perfection is an attribute possessed by all of the Members of the Godhead, so that is not really a useful means of distinction, since They all share it. The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit all share the same characterisitics of divinity (i.e. omnipotency, omniscience, etc.), while possessing different personalities, roles, even wills. Did that help answer your question(s)?

 

[Janette]

ok, thanks and sorry

Yeah I think I'm ok on this part now at least. I thank you for your patience.

My parents' families would claim to be Christian but the lives they led make me wonder a bit, and they aren't involved in any kind of church. I left college all of six credits away from a religion degree myself...but my specialization was Asian relgions and all my classes (including those I took on Christianity) were taken at a secular college with a rather secular agenda. I find I spend a lot of my time "unlearning" their perspective on things.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Yeah I think I'm ok on this part now at least. I thank you for your patience.

My parents' families would claim to be Christian but the lives they led make me wonder a bit, and they aren't involved in any kind of church. I left college all of six credits away from a religion degree myself...but my specialization was Asian relgions and all my classes (including those I took on Christianity) were taken at a secular college with a rather secular agenda. I find I spend a lot of my time "unlearning" their perspective on things.

Janette,

There is a simple metaphor I was given years ago that might give you a frame of reference for understanding the concept of The Trinity; the common chicken egg. The egg is one - a single unit, if you will. But that unit is made up of three separate and distinct elements - the yoke, the eggwhite, and the shell. Each of these elements has its own identity, yet they function together as the egg.

So it is with the Triune Godhead; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have separate identities, yet they function together all the time as God.

SLE

 

[Zulu]

Janette,

There is a simple metaphor I was given years ago that might give you a frame of reference for understanding the concept of The Trinity; the common chicken egg. The egg is one - a single unit, if you will. But that unit is made up of three separate and distinct elements - the yoke, the eggwhite, and the shell. Each of these elements has its own identity, yet they function together as the egg.

So it is with the Triune Godhead; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have separate identities, yet they function together all the time as God.

SLE

Another metaphor that can be used, is water in its three conditions: Ice(solid) ,water(liquid) and steam(gas) all the same just another form of presentation. Such is the Holy Trinity, all the same but each presenting itself in another form or task .

 

[PrayzChrist]

In regards to the Trinity, I have found the water analogy to be used to represent modalism (a heresy, though I am not suggesting anyone here is necessarily a modalist, thus a heretic, I just find the water analogy, as well as the egg analogy, to be inferior because of the pitfalls associated with them.) The Godhead cannot be reduced to a mere analogy based on an object, since it usually disintergrates into claiming the Members have different natures, rather than personalities.

The egg analogy is inferior because the shell has a different nature than the yolk, which has a different nature than eggwhite. God does not have a different nature depending on which Person you are speaking of.

The water analogy is also inferior because ice, liquid water, and water vapor all have different natures. Ice is cold and solid, liquid water is...well...liquid, and vapor is a gas. These are different modes (modalism) water can be in, which all have different natures. God does not have "modes."

I prefer the analogy that God is an office (i.e. Being, Entity, etc.), rather than an object. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are in the Office (God). Since They are all Members of this Office, They all possess the same authority, power, nature, etc. For example, let's say a company has the Office (in term of position) of President. This office is shared by three people. These three people all have the same power, authority, wealth, etc., yet they are distinct from one another. However, let's say each president (from a reasoning only they know) takes on different roles in the company. One takes an administrative position, another takes a relational position in speaking and communicating with the other employees, and one is given the task of boosting employee morale. They are all President, yet there is only one Office of President.

Of course, even this analogy is fairly inferior because there are still three separate presidents (thus different beings), but in the Trinity God is a single Being, with different Persons which fill His Being.

I hope this helps.

Until next time.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

As I said in my post, I was merely trying to establish a frame of reference so Janette could get an elementary idea of the concept. I would never attempt to reduce God.

SLE

 

[Zulu]

As I said in my post, I was merely trying to establish a frame of reference so Janette could get an elementary idea of the concept. I would never attempt to reduce God.

SLE

I'm in full agreement with you, as some people do only accept things they can see and relate to. Nowhere did anyone of you or me tried to reduce the Holy Trinity in any manner whatsoever.

In another incident after several attempts, for many a days by the instructor to get the blood circulation system of the body into someones head, I explain it to the person by relating it to a swimming pool: The pump was the heart, the filter the lungs , the pool the body and the pipes leading in and out were the arteries and veins.
As this person could relate to this he immediately caught on.

The attempt of you to try and explain the Trinity was good enough for someone seeking the Lord and with time he/she will have more mature understanding of the facts as the Holy Spirit works in this person and open his/her spiritual eyes.

In God we are blessed.
Tom

 

[ladylovesJesus]

I agree with SLE.

We actually heard the story of the egg from the pulpit with an egg in the Pastor's hand. I believe Joyce Meyer may also have used the illustration.

God bless :rose: :rainbow:

 

[PrayzChrist]

I certainly hope no one was offended by my post. I was merely trying to sharpen iron against iron.

Until next time.

 

[Janette]

ooookay

I appreciate all the help greatly and thank you all for your patience. As I said in another post somewhere, I'm mostly trying to "unlearn" some kinks in my concepts of God. There's nothing quite like years of hearing Christianity explained by secular professors who saw it as "just one more primative backwards mythology" (direct quote) to complicate trying to understand it from a faithful perspective.

Let me see if I "get" this.

"God" is God the Father (Yahuweh), God the Son (Yahushua/Jesus), and God the Holy Spirit (which if I remember my old classes was called "Ruach" but that's a feminine noun, not a name). I had one professor try to invent a "suppressed" Goddess/consort out of that feminine noun

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that these three um emanations? of God are (mysteriously to us) all of exactly the same power at the same time. In other words, the Holy Spirit is "the totality of God" and Jesus is "the totality of God" and the Father is "the totality of God" (instead of the idea that each is just one third of the whole or that any one is lesser in any way than any other, etc.)

The fact (whether we can wrap our minds around it or not) that They are all three "all God" at the same time is what keeps us from having a pantheon with three equally powerful gods in it that just make up a paltry third of the whole...right?

In addition to that, each of These also has specific things that They choose to do or handle. If each of Them are equal and total then theoretically They could trade jobs, but They don't as far as we know (all for reasons mysterious to us).

So the Father could possibly have come Himself to die on the cross (as the Father), but He sent Jesus the Son instead...only Jesus *is* the "totality of God" so basically the Father *did* come/send Himself?

I'm starting to *really* understand why "I AM" was the first answer Moses got.

 

[ladylovesJesus]

You are seeking answers and that is good. I think you understand the 3 in 1 principle now too.

Our minds cannot fully know everything as we would not be able to cope.

We believe by faith and trust God who knows everything and is everywhere. He is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent.

God bless you dear sister :rose: :rainbow:

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Janette:

Hebrews 11:1-2 says "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see (understand). This is what the ancients were commended for."

I suggest that you read (and meditate on) the whole of Hebrews Chapter Eleven.


SLE