First and the Last
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What are your comments on this statement?
No such thing as Eternal Son
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Bill Taylor
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From the scriptures, we learn that there is no human born on this earth is created without a spirit and in this instruction we learn that the spirit is without end, eternal. Considering I believe you're talking about the Son of Yahovah, why should you think His less than yourself?
Brightfame52
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What about the Eternal Son of God? He existed prior o His being Manifested 1 Jn 3 8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
He was a Son given Isa 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
He was a Son given Isa 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
First and the Last
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In the beginning He is called the Eternal Word and became Son in human flesh.
John 1 beautifully teaches the concept of God manifest in flesh. In the beginning was the Word (Greek, Logos). The Word was not a separate person or a separate god any more than a man’s word is a separate person from him. Rather the Word was the thought, plan, or mind of God. The Word was with God in the beginning and actually was God Himself (John 1:1). The Incarnation existed in the mind of God before the world began. Indeed, in the mind of God the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world (I Peter 1:19-20; Revelation 13:8).
That all sounds nice and proper. Would you say the Christ who ascended into heaven and is seated at the right of the Father is a person, and He is God?
If yes, then do you agree He is the second member of the Triune Godhead?
First and the Last
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Jesus Christ is understood as God manifest in the flesh, fully divine and fully human. This we agree on.
What we apparently don't agree on is I believe that God is Indivisible and inseparably one. Which I don't know why in light of these Scriptures.
Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD."
Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."
Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me."
Isaiah 45:21-22 "Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else."
Deuteronomy 4:35 "Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him."
Deuteronomy 32:39 "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."
1 Kings 8:60 "That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else."
2 Samuel 7:22 "Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears."
1 Chronicles 17:20 "O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears."
Mark 12:29 "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord."
Mark 12:32 "And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he."
John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
Romans 3:30 "Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith."
1 Corinthians 8:4 "As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one."
1 Corinthians 8:6 "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."
Galatians 3:20 "Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one."
Ephesians 4:6 "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
James 2:19 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."
I affirm that Jesus Christ was truly human, with all the essential components of humanity, including a human soul. I don't deny Christ's humanity but rather emphasize that the one God manifested Himself in human form.
The divine and human natures are united in the person of Jesus Christ without confusion or separation. This includes Jesus having a human soul.
I don't reduce Jesus to merely a divine appearance but recognizes Him as fully experiencing human life, including possessing a human soul. So the "empty shell" comment is not applicable because Jesus is fully divine and fully human, with both natures coexisting in His person.
Bible teaches that Jesus Christ was truly human, possessing all essential components of humanity, including a human soul. He experienced human emotions, needs, and limitations, which are indicative of a complete human existence.
Brightfame52
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The Word being With God seems to argue a separate personage, and if the Son of God was manifested, that argues His being prior to being manifest. The word manifested 1 Jn 3 8
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
φανερόω means
to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way
- make actual and visible, realised
- to make known by teaching
- to become manifest, be made known
- of a person
- expose to view, make manifest, to show one's self, appear
Also John uses the definite article for the Son of God
ποιῶν τὴν ἁμαρτίαν ἐκ τοῦ διαβόλου ἐστίν ὅτι ἀπ᾽ ἀρχῆς ὁ διάβολος ἁμαρτάνει εἰς τοῦτο ἐφανερώθη ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ ἵνα λύσῃ τὰ ἔργα τοῦ διαβόλου
This argues His particular existence, but they share the same One Divine Essence, along with the Spirit
You address my questions in lecture form, I can't get a straight out answer.
Not knowing exactly where you stand on the Godhead/Trinity, I'll just agree to disagree and let it go.
First and the Last
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to reveal or make known God’s nature and character through a human life. 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God (Fullness of the Godhead) was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. Doesn't make God separate persons just makes him visible and known.
First and the Last
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Second line of my response is where I stand. Wasn't made as clear as I thought.
B-A-C
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Modalistic Monarchianism - Wikipedia
In other words, God is like Clark Kent, he takes off his glasses, puts on his super-suit and becomes Superman.
In Modalism, God is always the same being. But he changes His persona to be the Father or the Son as the case may be. The Father and the Son never exist at the same time in the same place/context.
I guess God has a Jekyll and Hyde syndrome?
Luke 22:42; saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."
I guess He prays to Himself and has two different wills at the same time?
Acts 3:15; but put to death the Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses.
Acts 4:10; let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by this name this man stands here before you in good health.
Acts 13:30; "But God raised Him from the dead;
How do you raise yourself from the dead, if ... you're dead?
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Modalistic Monarchianism - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
In other words, God is like Clark Kent, he takes off his glass, puts on his super-suit and becomes Superman.
In Modalism, God is always the same being. But he changes His persona to be the Father or the Son as the case may be. The Father and the Son never exist at the same time in the same place/context.
That's what I was trying to get from him. The existence of the Father and Son at the same time.
He won't comment on that, beating all around the bush.
I've asked this in three different forms, bush beating.
Brightfame52
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Okay but that doesnt help you
First and the Last
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Many monotheists have pointed out that both trinitarianism and binitarianism weaken the strict monotheism taught by the Bible. They insist that the Godhead cannot be divided into persons and that God is absolutely one.
These believers in strict monotheism fall into two classes. One class asserts that there is only one God, but does so by denying, in one way or another, the full deity of Jesus Christ. This view was represented in early church history by the dynamic Monarchianism, such as Paul of Samosata, and by the Arians, led by Arius. These groups relegated Jesus to the position of a created god, subordinate god, junior god, or demigod.
The second class of true monotheists believes in one God, but further believes that the fullness of the Godhead is manifested in Jesus Christ. They believe that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are manifestations, modes, offices, or relationships that the one God has displayed to humans. Church historians have used the terms modalism and modalistic monarchianism to describe this view as held by such early church leaders as Noetus, Praxeas, and Sabellius. (See chapter 10.) Today, those who believe in both the indivisible oneness of God and the full deity of Jesus Christ frequently use the term “Oneness” to describe their belief. They also use the terms “One God” and “Jesus Name” as adjectives to label themselves, while opponents sometimes use the misleading or derogatory designations “Jesus Only” and “New Issue.” (The label “Jesus Only” is misleading because to trinitarians it implies a denial of the Father and the Holy Spirit. However, Oneness believers (which I Am) do not deny the Father and Spirit, but rather see them revealed in Jesus.)
Even among those who believe in the dual nature of Jesus Christ, there are many erroneous beliefs. Some have tried to distinguish between Jesus and Christ, saying that Christ was a divine being who temporarily dwelt in Jesus beginning at His baptism but withdrew from the man Jesus just before death (Cerinthianism— a doctrine in Gnosticism). In a similar vein, some say Jesus was a man who became God only at some point in His adult life—such as at His baptism—as a result of an adoptive act by God (Dynamic Monarchianism, Adoptionism). In other words, this view contends that Jesus was a human who was eventually deified. Others regard Jesus as a created deity, a deity like the Father but inferior to the Father in deity, or a demigod (Arianism). Then, some believe that Jesus is of the same essence as the Father, yet not the Father but subordinate to the Father in deity (Subordinationism).
First and the Last
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That is one thing that I don't ascribe to about Modalistic Monarchianism. God is Omnipresent and can be fully in Christ and Heaven at the same time. Bible clearly declares that.Modalistic Monarchianism - Wikipedia
In Modalism, God is always the same being. But he changes His persona to be the Father or the Son as the case may be. The Father and the Son never exist at the same time in the same place.
First and the Last
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God is Omnipresent and can be fully in Christ and Heaven at the same time. Bible clearly declares that.
The bottom line is that you're rejecting the person of Christ as God, being distinct from the Father and equal with the Father in deity.
Could you comment on that?
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Unlike modalistic monarchianism, which suggests that God is one person who simply changes modes or forms like an actor putting on different masks, Oneness (which I Am) theology maintains that God's manifestations are not just temporary roles but true, simultaneous expressions of His one essence. God can manifest as Father in creation, Son in redemption, and Holy Spirit in sanctification, but He is always the same one God.
At Jesus' baptism, the Father speaks from heaven, the Son is baptized, and the Holy Spirit descends like a dove (Matthew 3:16-17). This demonstrates that all three manifestations can occur simultaneously, reflecting the one God.
Jesus prays to the Father, not because He is a separate person, but to demonstrate His true humanity and to model a relationship with God for us. In His human nature, Jesus prayed to the Father to model a perfect human relationship with God, to express genuine human dependence on God, and to fulfill His role as the obedient Son. Jesus' prayers reflect His true humanity. They show His reliance on the Father, His submission to the Father's will, and His communication with God, just as any human being should.
Jesus prayed to set an example for us. His prayers teach us about the importance of prayer, trust in God, and submission to God's will (Luke 11:1-4). As the mediator between God and humanity (1 Timothy 2:5), Jesus’ prayers also demonstrate His role in interceding for us. His high priestly prayer in John 17 is an example of intercession on behalf of His disciples and future believers.
Jesus’ prayers are understood within the framework of His dual nature. While He is God incarnate, His human nature required prayer for strength, guidance, and communion with God. Jesus praying to the Father does not imply a division within the Godhead but highlights the distinct role and experience of His humanity.
At Jesus' baptism, the Father speaks from heaven, the Son is baptized, and the Holy Spirit descends like a dove (Matthew 3:16-17). This demonstrates that all three manifestations can occur simultaneously, reflecting the one God.
Jesus prays to the Father, not because He is a separate person, but to demonstrate His true humanity and to model a relationship with God for us. In His human nature, Jesus prayed to the Father to model a perfect human relationship with God, to express genuine human dependence on God, and to fulfill His role as the obedient Son. Jesus' prayers reflect His true humanity. They show His reliance on the Father, His submission to the Father's will, and His communication with God, just as any human being should.
Jesus prayed to set an example for us. His prayers teach us about the importance of prayer, trust in God, and submission to God's will (Luke 11:1-4). As the mediator between God and humanity (1 Timothy 2:5), Jesus’ prayers also demonstrate His role in interceding for us. His high priestly prayer in John 17 is an example of intercession on behalf of His disciples and future believers.
Jesus’ prayers are understood within the framework of His dual nature. While He is God incarnate, His human nature required prayer for strength, guidance, and communion with God. Jesus praying to the Father does not imply a division within the Godhead but highlights the distinct role and experience of His humanity.
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