Objection: "I am an atheist. I don't believe in God"

[Chad]

I am an atheist. I don't believe in God
by Matt Slick (www.carm.org)

An atheist is defined primarily in two senses: Someone who says he believes there is no God, and someone who simply lacks belief in God. An atheist cannot rationally say he knows there is no God, because he would have to know all things in order to know if there is or isn't a God. If he says he believes there is no God, ask him why he believes that way, and begin there. If he says he lacks belief in God, then ask what he does believe in, and start there. I always get around to the question of, "How did we get here?" Since creation and evolution are the only options, I have something further to work with.

An agnostic says he doesn't know if there is or isn't a God. (Usually after saying this I challenge them to explain the prophecies of the Old Testament fulfilled in the New. I state how the Bible is unique that way, and that only God can make prophecies that are 100% accurate. Then I ask him to explain how that could be done if there is no God.)
If there is no God as you say, then in the end I lose nothing. But if there is a God like I say, in the end you lose everything.

Why don't you believe in God? Is there any reason for you to intelligently reject His existence? Or, do you simply desire not to believe in Him?

The Bible doesn't attempt to prove that God exists. It simply speaks as though He does. Maybe I can't prove to you there is a God, but I can introduce Him to you through His Son Jesus Christ, and you can judge for yourself if the Words of Christ in the Bible convince you of His existence.

 

[ewhenn]

I had to make an account to respond to this topic (don't worry, I'm not a person that intends to be rude or belittling, etc). Personally, I'm an agnostic that reasons atheists are likely closer to the correct explanation than any other religious explanation.

An atheist is defined primarily in two senses: Someone who says he believes there is no God, and someone who simply lacks belief in God. An atheist cannot rationally say he knows there is no God, because he would have to know all things in order to know if there is or isn't a God. If he says he believes there is no God, ask him why he believes that way, and begin there. If he says he lacks belief in God, then ask what he does believe in, and start there. I always get around to the question of, "How did we get here?" Since creation and evolution are the only options, I have something further to work with.

)

You are correct in saying that an atheist cannot prove that God does not exist (at least presently). I take the stance that until you can prove it, you do not know, and cannot with any real legitimate reasoning claim a god does or does not exist.

On the "How did we get here?" question: Creation and evolution are not the only options. They are the only explanations people have tried to explain to date. New explanations are discovered / theorized as our provable knowledge slowly increases.

As an example, Bloodletting was practiced for almost 2000 years as a way to treat illnesses caused by evil spirits. Up until we had microscopes and discovered microorganisms at the cellular level, the only options to explain illness were things such as evil spirits, which we today know is not the true cause of illness. We discovered new things, and our knowledge expanded. It's not logically acceptable to assume that God, Sheba, Cerberus, or any other religious entity causes events on the insignificant or grand level because you presently don't have an explanation, it just means that you don't know. There is no shame in not having an answer to the hardest question one could ever pose to you (The origin of the universe), we don't truly 100% know yet, maybe we never will, but until we have 100% proof we as a species have work to do.

An agnostic says he doesn't know if there is or isn't a God. (Usually after saying this I challenge them to explain the prophecies of the Old Testament fulfilled in the New. I state how the Bible is unique that way, and that only God can make prophecies that are 100% accurate. Then I ask him to explain how that could be done if there is no God.)
If there is no God as you say, then in the end I lose nothing. But if there is a God like I say, in the end you lose everything.

This is where I mostly fit in (an agnostic).

As to the old testament / new testament question: Simple. It's entirely possible that the people that wrote the new testament read the old testament and made the stories fit. Humans engage in this type of behavior all the time.

As to the part about having nothing to lose and everything to gain: The idea that you should "double-down just in case" is a bad reason to believe in any religion. Also, you do lose quite a bit, namely freewill. By submitting and shaping your behavior to an external idea you lose important identifying parts of yourself, you cease to 100% be yourself, and this is truly tragic in my opinion.

Why don't you believe in God? Is there any reason for you to intelligently reject His existence? Or, do you simply desire not to believe in Him?

As to the why: I don't accept anything unless there is absolute proof, or extremely strong evidence without any real claim based in sound logic that points otherwise.

A for a reason: I don't find the evidence credible. A lack of proving that god does not exist, does not prove he does.

As an example, I could claim that Verzov the creator of all, that lives in a galaxy 7 billion light-years away created man. You couldn't prove that I was wrong, but the claim just wouldn't be credible. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and claiming to know the origin of the universe/man is the most extraordinary claim of all. The fact that the major religions have millions/billions of people repeating and believing claims does not make them any more substantiated factually.

As for Desire: It's not that I desire not to believe in a God. I only desire the proven truth. Nothing more, nothing less. If it was proven without a doubt that god exists, I'd absolutely accept it.




As a side note: Thanks for being willing to host an open discussion / topic. I look forward to an insightful conversation and of course welcome any responses (not just Chad's since I replied to his topic).

 

[agua]

I had to make an account to respond to this topic (don't worry, I'm not a person that intends to be rude or belittling, etc). Personally, I'm an agnostic that reasons atheists are likely closer to the correct explanation than any other religious explanation.

)

G'day and welcome : ) I usually don't debate the existence of God with anyone because God expects me to preach the Gospel not prove He exists. I will chat with you a bit as long as we don't start chasing rabbits up holes.

You are correct in saying that an atheist cannot prove that God does not exist (at least presently). I take the stance that until you can prove it, you do not know, and cannot with any real legitimate reasoning claim a god does or does not exist.

God expects us to see Him in His creation and then search for Him. If we don't search/seek we won't find Him. I like to think "the proof is in the pudding" but of course we all must make our own choice on who the cook is.

On the "How did we get here?" question: Creation and evolution are not the only options. They are the only explanations people have tried to explain to date. New explanations are discovered / theorized as our provable knowledge slowly increases.

True enough.

As an example, Bloodletting was practiced for almost 2000 years as a way to treat illnesses caused by evil spirits. Up until we had microscopes and discovered microorganisms at the cellular level, the only options to explain illness were things such as evil spirits, which we today know is not the true cause of illness. We discovered new things, and our knowledge expanded. It's not logically acceptable to assume that God, Sheba, Cerberus, or any other religious entity causes events on the insignificant or grand level because you presently don't have an explanation, it just means that you don't know. There is no shame in not having an answer to the hardest question one could ever pose to you (The origin of the universe), we don't truly 100% know yet, maybe we never will, but until we have 100% proof we as a species have work to do.


This is where I mostly fit in (an agnostic).

Some people are comfortable with leaving our origins a mystery and others spend much time thinking about it. I used to look into space and ponder what was out there. Then my question changed to "how did it get here". From there the search led to one inevitable conclusion that someone/thing made it. I realised that something/one without a beginning must have existed.

As to the old testament / new testament question: Simple. It's entirely possible that the people that wrote the new testament read the old testament and made the stories fit. Humans engage in this type of behavior all the time.

There are many prophecies in the OT that are not recorded in the NT and several that are yet to be fulfilled. Of course you could use the same argument about prophecy both recorded and fulfilled in the OT but some were given, and then witnessed fulfilled, by the same person. This then would make the person either a liar or a credible witness.

As to the part about having nothing to lose and everything to gain: The idea that you should "double-down just in case" is a bad reason to believe in any religion. Also, you do lose quite a bit, namely freewill. By submitting and shaping your behavior to an external idea you lose important identifying parts of yourself, you cease to 100% be yourself, and this is truly tragic in my opinion.

Submitting to God doesn't mean losing our free will. It simply means we choose a better way of life which will make it more rewarding and fulfilling. Unfortunately we live in fallen world atm and life can be hard and cruel. I believe shaping our behaviour to become Christlike is not only good but joyous and beneficial to everyone. It doesn't mean losing our identity it means substituting the bad bits for something better.

As to the why: I don't accept anything unless there is absolute proof, or extremely strong evidence without any real claim based in sound logic that points otherwise.

A for a reason: I don't find the evidence credible. A lack of proving that god does not exist, does not prove he does.

God believes He has left ample evidence of Himself. It is up to the individual to see this and then search further.

As an example, I could claim that Verzov the creator of all, that lives in a galaxy 7 billion light-years away created man. You couldn't prove that I was wrong, but the claim just wouldn't be credible. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and claiming to know the origin of the universe/man is the most extraordinary claim of all. The fact that the major religions have millions/billions of people repeating and believing claims does not make them any more substantiated factually.

True. To make any claim credible we must diligently search out the evidence and then weigh it and come to a decision.

As for Desire: It's not that I desire not to believe in a God. I only desire the proven truth. Nothing more, nothing less. If it was proven without a doubt that god exists, I'd absolutely accept it.

This isn't unusual. When Jesus walked this Earth, and performed miracles, many people still didn't believe. So seeing isn't necessarily a guarantee to believing. Faith is believing in something we haven't seen. Each individual must make their own search and decide on the amount and type of proof required.

As a side note: Thanks for being willing to host an open discussion / topic. I look forward to an insightful conversation and of course welcome any responses (not just Chad's since I replied to his topic).

If you seek God and prove He exists to yourself I will be very pleased.

: )

 

[my_little_pony]

Hi ewhenn,

You are correct in saying that an atheist cannot prove that God does not exist (at least presently). I take the stance that until you can prove it, you do not know, and cannot with any real legitimate reasoning claim a god does or does not exist.

I think this issue of "prove" really is quite, distracting, in the grand scheme of things. I agree with agua that it's not a Christians' responsibility to "prove" God, because ultimately God is love.

We don't need to prove love, we just do it. Even if you don't believe in the deity of Jesus, what about his teachings on loving one another?

Even if you don't believe that he was just a good teacher, but a total fictional character, what about his teachings on loving one another?

Jesus himself said that if anyone wants to know if what he is saying really comes from God, then they should try his teachings, and IF they do it the way he said to do it then they will know that what he said comes from God.

But, the catch is that he requires 100% and this only applies to the sincere.

But hey, when eternal life is at stake you can be sure God is no idiot. He asks for everything ( luke 14:33 ). In a world of free choice, where talk is cheap and religious bigotry abounds, it's the only way to know who really cares about what God wants.

 

[Christ4Ever]

As to the old testament / new testament question: Simple. It's entirely possible that the people that wrote the new testament read the old testament and made the stories fit. Humans engage in this type of behavior all the time.

That might be true, if you don't take into account that folks who knowingly falsify a record would not be willing to die for the lie much less be sacrificial in character. Regardless to whose benefits they believe they are doing it for. The Apostles, except for one died violent deaths, and they were provided opportunities to recant. None did. Now followers believing in the lie might be willing to die, but the originator of the lie?
C4E

 

[dannibear]

I had to make an account to respond to this topic (don't worry, I'm not a person that intends to be rude or belittling, etc). Personally, I'm an agnostic that reasons atheists are likely closer to the correct explanation than any other religious explanation.

What kind of agnostic are you?

 

[Tribulation]

I don't have enough "faith" to be an atheist. :weirdo:

 

[will]

As an example, Bloodletting was practiced for almost 2000 years as a way to treat illnesses caused by evil spirits. Up until we had microscopes and discovered microorganisms at the cellular level, the only options to explain illness were things such as evil spirits, which we today know is not the true cause of illness. We discovered new things, and our knowledge expanded. It's not logically acceptable to assume that God, Sheba, Cerberus, or any other religious entity causes events on the insignificant or grand level because you presently don't have an explanation, it just means that you don't know. There is no shame in not having an answer to the hardest question one could ever pose to you (The origin of the universe), we don't truly 100% know yet, maybe we never will, but until we have 100% proof we as a species have work to do.

This is where I mostly fit in (an agnostic).

Let me take on that example.

I don't live in the age where Bloodletting was practiced, so I cannot presume to know what they are really thinking back in those days. One thing I know for sure is that as you pointed out, there are no knowledge about microorganism and the tools that enables us to detect them. Therefore they have no base to believe in anything else other than maybe the evil spirits.

This is quite different than the case of Atheism vs Biblical Theism. The fact is, we have the Scriptures (Old and New Testaments) which describes in detail how we came to be and who created us and for what purpose. The answer to the ultimate question is there. It's whether we believe it or not.

Both Atheists and Christians have the same amount of time (generally speaking) and resource to study the Scriptures (I won't even count a lot of Atheists who didn't actually bother to investigate the Bible because they came into their belief in Atheism not by their own volition), but the outcome is obviously different, the Atheists came out disbelieving, the Christians came out believing.

So again it came down to personal choice whether or not you believe this ancient document or not. For me personally, the way the Bible describes the history, human condition (mental and psyche) explains a whole lot about why we are in this situation now globally speaking (war, famine, cruelty, selfishness, and even disasters). At the same time, after studying the Scriptures, I came to know the person whom the Scripture is centered upon, Jesus Christ. He is now the reason that I hang on to my faith in Him.

Contrast this with a lot of Atheists (and maybe agnostics) who painted a rosy picture of how human being will rise above the pettiness and selfishness and "someday" we will live in harmony and utopia thanks to the "savior" of the world: Science and Technology.

Well, that "someday" has been preached for a long time and do you honestly see it coming? If you think so, I invite you to look around the world, are there more people living in freedom or being oppressed now than before? Are we closer to conquer death? or are most of us just living longer in depressed state of mind? Are we as a society more civil towards each other beyond skin deep?

By the way, I really appreciate your sharing a glance at the mind of an agnostic in a very civil way.

 

[Ramy Hanna]

God is love, and love is God, I believe in God.

 

[Kit Carson]

I think God picks the time , when things are right he reveals himself to all. It may take time. It did for me.

I was agnostic, then atheist, then agnostic , then confused, then confused some more. Lol! But if you have a good heart God will one day speak to you in some way.

I had never read the Bible myself for a long time, I was going on what other men told me, or what I heard in church or, what I would learn by science or something. There had to be a reason and explanation. Nothing seemed to explain it, I mean there had to be an explanation as to where we came from, and where the earth and creation came from and to me science just never did explain it adequately. Belief in God did not explain it either, and the suffering and the violence and these things all worked to confuse me even more.

So one day I picked up the Bible and read it , every word, very interesting it was speaking to me, so I read it again, and now read it some every day. The human understanding in it, the compassion, the words of truth simply spoke to me.

Hard for me to explain, but it will happen to each person when the time is right.

It is very simple , when you do understand, but it does take some of us some time. For sure it did for me. I was I guess around 30 or so before I accepted God, up to that time I rebelled all the time.

Finally I did accept and learned to run to God , and to reject much of the religion, as God is truth and the religion at the church is not always the truth. Once this was realized and I learned to listen to Gods word, the confusion vanished.

It is a one on one relationship, and each of us is different, and God seems to know when and how, so if one says they do not believe, I am not too concerned as God has placed in each of us enough knowledge of him that one day, he will win.

Kit

 

[spirit1st]

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

2Ti_2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Heb_4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

2Th_2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.


It appears? Faith can grow mighty in us!
or die!

2Th_3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith

Mat_17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

God gives us All Faith!So we can be Born -Again!

2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


So sad ,Eternal life is a Gift! A perfect gift for All willing !

We just have to accept HIS Gospel and Him in His rightful place as LORD!

1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Rom_1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth;


Joh_11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Joh_6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Joh_10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Jas_1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Thank YOU LORD JESUS! No Greater Gift than Eternal LIFE!

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Cause us LORD, To LOVE others as You have LOVED US!
In the Mighty name ,above All Names JESUS CHRIST! Thank YOU Father GOD!

 

[my_little_pony]

That might be true, if you don't take into account that folks who knowingly falsify a record would not be willing to die for the lie much less be sacrificial in character. Regardless to whose benefits they believe they are doing it for. The Apostles, except for one died violent deaths, and they were provided opportunities to recant. None did.?

Excellent contribution, C4E; very relevant.

 

[RJ]

I had to make an account to respond to this topic (don't worry, I'm not a person that intends to be rude or belittling, etc). Personally, I'm an agnostic that reasons atheists are likely closer to the correct explanation than any other religious explanation.

)

You are correct in saying that an atheist cannot prove that God does not exist (at least presently). I take the stance that until you can prove it, you do not know, and cannot with any real legitimate reasoning claim a god does or does not exist.

On the "How did we get here?" question: Creation and evolution are not the only options. They are the only explanations people have tried to explain to date. New explanations are discovered / theorized as our provable knowledge slowly increases.

As an example, Bloodletting was practiced for almost 2000 years as a way to treat illnesses caused by evil spirits. Up until we had microscopes and discovered microorganisms at the cellular level, the only options to explain illness were things such as evil spirits, which we today know is not the true cause of illness. We discovered new things, and our knowledge expanded. It's not logically acceptable to assume that God, Sheba, Cerberus, or any other religious entity causes events on the insignificant or grand level because you presently don't have an explanation, it just means that you don't know. There is no shame in not having an answer to the hardest question one could ever pose to you (The origin of the universe), we don't truly 100% know yet, maybe we never will, but until we have 100% proof we as a species have work to do.

This is where I mostly fit in (an agnostic).

As to the old testament / new testament question: Simple. It's entirely possible that the people that wrote the new testament read the old testament and made the stories fit. Humans engage in this type of behavior all the time.

As to the part about having nothing to lose and everything to gain: The idea that you should "double-down just in case" is a bad reason to believe in any religion. Also, you do lose quite a bit, namely freewill. By submitting and shaping your behavior to an external idea you lose important identifying parts of yourself, you cease to 100% be yourself, and this is truly tragic in my opinion.


As to the why: I don't accept anything unless there is absolute proof, or extremely strong evidence without any real claim based in sound logic that points otherwise.

A for a reason: I don't find the evidence credible. A lack of proving that god does not exist, does not prove he does.

As an example, I could claim that Verzov the creator of all, that lives in a galaxy 7 billion light-years away created man. You couldn't prove that I was wrong, but the claim just wouldn't be credible. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and claiming to know the origin of the universe/man is the most extraordinary claim of all. The fact that the major religions have millions/billions of people repeating and believing claims does not make them any more substantiated factually.

As for Desire: It's not that I desire not to believe in a God. I only desire the proven truth. Nothing more, nothing less. If it was proven without a doubt that god exists, I'd absolutely accept it.




As a side note: Thanks for being willing to host an open discussion / topic. I look forward to an insightful conversation and of course welcome any responses (not just Chad's since I replied to his topic).

Ewhenn,

I have one response: Why are you here at TJ?

If you are even remotely searching to just confirm your own conviction, I have a suggestion.

Before you fully express your lack of beleif, you owe it to yourself and the rest of us to base your opion on sound examination.

Why don't openly, with no preconcieved notion read the Bible, as if it were the first time and that you were looking for something.

Start with the New Testament starting with Matthew and read through Revelation. Go back and read the Old Testament verses when referenced.

Give it an honest try and then make an opinion. Also, remember, the Bible is also like a history book, even Muslims beleive in the existence of Jesus Christ, they just don't acknowledge him as God and Savior!

 

[duckybill]

I am an atheist. I don't believe in God

Then why are you thinking about God?

 

[dannibear]

Then why are you thinking about God?

I don't know if that is directed to Chad, or just in
general to those who don't believe, but Chad
does believe in God. What you quoted was
just the title of the article.

 

[my_little_pony]

It could be that ehwennn is an atheist troll, posting the same basic text on a hundred different forums.

I've seen this kind of thing before. It MAY be that ehwenn is just too busy to get back to what he posted, but it's also likely that he is just a troll.

Either way, his post makes for an interesting hypothetical situation. Jesus said a lot about sincerity in his teachings, and his followers followed that up with some really good teachings, too.

The kingdom of Heaven is not based on "belief" so much as it is "belief in love".

For example, Jesus said that anyone who wants to know if his teachings are really from God, then they should try those teachings.

His followers said stuff like "anyone who loves is born of God".

Atheists like to make a big deal about "proving" the existence of God because they know it generally raises a fairly strong reaction from Christians.

But what atheists will NOT do is to TRY the teachings of Jesus regarding love. They will not act on those practical teachings.

Even IF we only considered Jesus a very smart man (and not a divine aspect of God), his teachings on loving one another in practical ways, here on Earth, would still be relevant.

So, where is the atheist who is willing to "prove" by doing?

 

[Kit Carson]

I don't know if that is directed to Chad, or just in
general to those who don't believe, but Chad
does believe in God. What you quoted was
just the title of the article.

It was a joke. Just grin. A bit of fun is all.

Kit

 

[Face His Truth]

If there is no God as you say, then in the end I lose nothing. But if there is a God like I say, in the end you lose everything.

Not quite I'm afraid.
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But maybe you’re exploring forums because you’re not truly an atheist either and so you’re naturally trying to find out which “theory” might be best for You to believe? And if you really want to know if God exists, you shouldn’t be asking this forum but rather you have to ask God First because that’s the way it works and if so, you’re in luck because your options are simple too? It’s either True or False that God exists. Which means:
1. False; if God doesn’t exist and you’re content to choose death as your inevitable destiny, then you will die an atheist.
2. True; if God does exist and you choose death instead of eternal life in paradise, then you will die and then be resurrected only to suffer God’s wrath for eternity instead.

Hmmm, wonder what a sane person would hope for? What were the choices again? Oh ya; it’s either eternal love in paradise or eternal suffering. Yikes that’s a toughy because who in their right mind would want to pass up the hope for ‘eternal suffering’?

Your choice. . . . tick . . . tick . . . tick . . .

 

[agua]

Pssst Face His Truth.

Chad is the owner of this forum and definitely not an atheist.

: )

The OP is a sermon/writing by Matt Slick posted by Chad.

I am an atheist. I don't believe in God
by Matt Slick (www.carm.org)

 

[Face His Truth]

Pssst Face His Truth.

The OP is a sermon/writing by Matt Slick posted by Chad.

pssst; I was addressing comments about atheism, not Chad
and
pssst; hope You aren't one of those who feel they have to troll for everyone of my postings in the forum and make a comment for no reason and/or because you think I'm an idiot or something like that? Bless you though and I appreciate your concern.