Once saved can we lose our salvation??

[brakelite]

Please, would you or brakelite give your interpretation of "not of yourselves" and "not of works" in this following and famous verse. :

Ephesians 2

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Hi RJ, you asked this before and I gave my answer, but here it is again. If what I speak of makes no sense to you then sorry, but that's the best I can do. You didn't respond to any of my previous explanations of the verses I offered....it seems you prefer to fall back on the Eph. default verse as your stock answer. Problem with having one or two verses as 'proof' of your position, you fail to compare that verse with the rest of scripture. There are other verses in scripture (like the ones I asked you about earlier) which when understood correctly explain Eph and puts it in its proper light and perspective.

Originally Posted by RJ
Please, would you or brakelite give your interpretation of "not of yourselves" and "not of works" in this following and famous verse. :

Ephesians 2

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
I have no argument with the above verse. We cannot offer our own works to God as a means of getting saved. There is nothing we can do to impress God, to placate His wrath and judgement for sin, to atone for our unrighteousness. Nothing.It is solely the grace and mercy of a loving forgiving Saviour who gave Himself for us. Is that clear enough?

The above statement however does not mitigate against anything I have said previously. While we are justified by the blood of Christ, that is only half the story. Christ's righteousness is imputed to us through justification. We are accounted righteous and our names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Yay! Sanctification however is Christ's righteousness imparted to us. Thus again, by His grace, we are empowered to obey His commandments. And our motivation for doing so and making ourselves as malleable clay in the Potters hands is love, not in order to be saved! God's requirements are not less demanding for the Christian today than they were for Adam and Eve in the garden. And we as Christians are happy to obey because we love Him so much. Hence Jesus words "if ye love Me keep My commandments". And as John said, "His commandments are not grievous". Dare anyone suggest that obedience and sanctification isn't essential to our ultimate destiny?
Think about this. If Adam and Eve, being perfect, were turfed out of the garden for disobedience, how much more would we sinners be kept out of the garden if clinging still to our disobedience?

Grace and law are not against one another, they compliment one another. The law was never intended to save, but to point out sin. Grace saves. There is nothing wrong with the laws of God, they are holy and good. The problem occurs when it is used as a means to salvation. The law can never be opposed to grace for both grace and law operate in two different and distinct areas with different purposes.

Our problem here is not the commandments of the law versus the commandments free life of grace, for the truth is that grace has its commandments too. Why does one obey the law? Out of fear! Why does one obey the commandments of grace? Out of love!!! There lies the difference. Motivation. The commandments are the same in each case, the motive alone differs.
When we were unsaved the law was our enemy, because we had no desire to obey. Now however we are saved the law is our friend because we delight to obey our Creator and Lord because we love Him. He asks us to obey and we say 'absolutely!'
Now, as a believer in Christ and having the power to stand before the throne of God clothed in Christ's righteousness, and when we read the law it becomes a request from our dearest friend and Father and we want nothing more than to please Him...in fact our obedience becomes our greatest pleasure...and thus, unconsciously even we discover we are keeping God's commandments to the letter.
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Jesus did not come just to die that we might be forgiven. He did not just come to save us from condemnation. He came also to be resurrected and empower us to live holy lives. To be saved not just from the effects of sin, but from sin itself! Praise God!

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

 

[RJ]

Hi RJ, you asked this before and I gave my answer, but here it is again. If what I speak of makes no sense to you then sorry, but that's the best I can do. You didn't respond to any of my previous explanations of the verses I offered....it seems you prefer to fall back on the Eph. default verse as your stock answer. Problem with having one or two verses as 'proof' of your position, you fail to compare that verse with the rest of scripture. There are other verses in scripture (like the ones I asked you about earlier) which when understood correctly explain Eph and puts it in its proper light and perspective.

Originally Posted by RJ
Please, would you or brakelite give your interpretation of "not of yourselves" and "not of works" in this following and famous verse. :

Ephesians 2

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
I have no argument with the above verse. We cannot offer our own works to God as a means of getting saved. There is nothing we can do to impress God, to placate His wrath and judgement for sin, to atone for our unrighteousness. Nothing.It is solely the grace and mercy of a loving forgiving Saviour who gave Himself for us. Is that clear enough?

The above statement however does not mitigate against anything I have said previously. While we are justified by the blood of Christ, that is only half the story. Christ's righteousness is imputed to us through justification. We are accounted righteous and our names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Yay! Sanctification however is Christ's righteousness imparted to us. Thus again, by His grace, we are empowered to obey His commandments. And our motivation for doing so and making ourselves as malleable clay in the Potters hands is love, not in order to be saved! God's requirements are not less demanding for the Christian today than they were for Adam and Eve in the garden. And we as Christians are happy to obey because we love Him so much. Hence Jesus words "if ye love Me keep My commandments". And as John said, "His commandments are not grievous". Dare anyone suggest that obedience and sanctification isn't essential to our ultimate destiny?
Think about this. If Adam and Eve, being perfect, were turfed out of the garden for disobedience, how much more would we sinners be kept out of the garden if clinging still to our disobedience?

Grace and law are not against one another, they compliment one another. The law was never intended to save, but to point out sin. Grace saves. There is nothing wrong with the laws of God, they are holy and good. The problem occurs when it is used as a means to salvation. The law can never be opposed to grace for both grace and law operate in two different and distinct areas with different purposes.

Our problem here is not the commandments of the law versus the commandments free life of grace, for the truth is that grace has its commandments too. Why does one obey the law? Out of fear! Why does one obey the commandments of grace? Out of love!!! There lies the difference. Motivation. The commandments are the same in each case, the motive alone differs.
When we were unsaved the law was our enemy, because we had no desire to obey. Now however we are saved the law is our friend because we delight to obey our Creator and Lord because we love Him. He asks us to obey and we say 'absolutely!'
Now, as a believer in Christ and having the power to stand before the throne of God clothed in Christ's righteousness, and when we read the law it becomes a request from our dearest friend and Father and we want nothing more than to please Him...in fact our obedience becomes our greatest pleasure...and thus, unconsciously even we discover we are keeping God's commandments to the letter.
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Jesus did not come just to die that we might be forgiven. He did not just come to save us from condemnation. He came also to be resurrected and empower us to live holy lives. To be saved not just from the effects of sin, but from sin itself! Praise God!

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

That was a nice Sermon!
But it does not point out our differences and, you appear to not stay on task about those differences.

Here is where I differ from you and a statement of yours on a 11-15-11 thread. These are your words that followed scripture that you qouted and something you don't even mention above:

"Seems to me that in every example above that salvation was conditional, not on anyones' acceptance of Christ, but on their works subsequent to their acceptance of Christ. "

So, this is no doubt your statement.
Does this mean that this is what you believe?...that your salvation is conditional, not on your acceptance of Christ but on works subsquent to your acceptance of Christ.
So, you say: Acceptance of Christ is first then the works that follow is the condition that must be achieved for salvation, yes?

I say acceptance of Christ resurrected life and you are given salvation is first. Then what you call works follows acceptance and salvation.
I say that these works are not actually your works but the product of the one who is in you and, these works are not required for your salvation but merely proof of your salvation.

 

[spirit1st]

One thing? Once we know our Father well, We no longer fear HIM! We obey Him because we LOVE HIm so much! We understand sin hurts Him! We try our best not to sin!

1Jn_4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

I do not fear MY FATHER GOD! But I feel so bad if i sin! I hate sin!

1Jn_2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Paying the price for our sins, made it possible to recreate us again .Too become a new creature!
He gave Faith to all mankind, so All mankind could be saved!

of course faith can grow very mighty or die within us!


Mat_17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Rom_10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.



2Th_3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

it appears some lose there faith and have no hope!


Faith takes a action!

i broke my ankle once very bad! The next day ,I ask the LORD . are you going to heal this or not? He said ? You going to get up and walk in faith or not? I said YES LORD!
I had to take three very painful steps to be healed! It was healed on that third step! But still was all black and blue looking!

I went after work the next days ,too the park with my kids! and showed it to a couple .They were shocked by how it looked! I jumped up and down to show it was well! I told Them We Christians Do not live by sight We live by faith !

 

[Stickz]

RJ, you are trying to force us to make a choice between two possible answers, trying to disallow us the choice of a third possibility which we have chosen to believe because we do not see where the other two line up with some scripture.

I will continue to converse with you about this, though, perhaps we will actually finally learn something from one another.

RJ: It is God who gives each of us our own measure of faith, your faith does not come from you.

When the Gospel is presented to a person, faith is what permits them to believe, or not, correct? By your above statement, people who don't believe, and that end up in Hell for this unbelief, only ended up with this judgement because God did not provide them with a correct measure of faith to save them.

With what you are saying, where does free will come in to play? Free will is our will, right? And do we or do we not use our own free will to choose to believe in Christ, or not? The way that a lot of people that believe in OSAS seem to believe is that we have free will until we become Christians, then it's revoked. What you seem to be saying sounds like our free will isn't even really ours to begin with; With that, no one should really even be required to believe—After Jesus died on the cross, everyone from that moment on should have been saved. But most of you maintain that we have to, at least, believe for that one initial moment.

I think that most of us that do not believe in OSAS feel that we must not only believe in Jesus ( who was the word of God made flesh ) but continue daily to believe in Jesus. If you choose to call that "works" because we believe that we have to maintain our relationships with God by continuing to obey His word, His commandments, then so be it.

RJ: We must avoid the urge to say that we must do things to please God or show our faith; it is best to say and live that it is all of him and none of us!

I have been hearing "It's not about us, it's about Him" quite a bit for the last few years, and admittedly, I'm not sure that I get it ( I suppose that it started as a song, right? ). Did He die on the cross for Himself? Let me rephrase the question: Would Jesus have done what He did had it not been for us? No, right? So, you see, even in His death on the cross, we played our parts.

RJ: We must avoid the urge

You say this as though you feel that we have been tempted to try to accept a part of the glory. We are not trying to take any of the glory for what God has done, RJ. You often say that we make a lot of the same assumptions about people that believe OSAS, but you also make a lot of assumptions about what we believe too. You think that if we don't believe what you believe then we must believe the exact opposite of what you do. That is often not the case at all.

According to scripture, RJ, who parted the Red Sea? Was it God, or was it Moses? Let's look at the verses:

Genesis 14:15 And the LORD said unto Moses, Wherefore criest thou unto me? speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward:

Genesis 14:16 But lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea.

Genesis 14:17 And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.

Genesis 14:18 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I have gotten me honour upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.

Genesis 14:19 And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:

Genesis 14:20 And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night.

Genesis 14:21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.

Genesis 14:22 And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.

Genesis 14:23 And the Egyptians pursued, and went in after them to the midst of the sea, even all Pharaoh's horses, his chariots, and his horsemen.

Genesis 14:24 And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians,

Genesis 14:25 And took off their chariot wheels, that they drave them heavily: so that the Egyptians said, Let us flee from the face of Israel; for the LORD fighteth for them against the Egyptians.

Genesis 14:26 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots, and upon their horsemen.

Genesis 14:27 And Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to his strength when the morning appeared; and the Egyptians fled against it; and the LORD overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea.

Genesis 14:28 And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them.

Genesis 14:29 But the children of Israel walked upon dry land in the midst of the sea; and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.

Genesis 14:30 Thus the LORD saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians; and Israel saw the Egyptians dead upon the sea shore.

Genesis 14:31 And Israel saw that great work which the LORD did upon the Egyptians: and the people feared the LORD, and believed the LORD, and his servant Moses.

Keep in mind that this was after the Passover and the Lamb's blood painted doorposts too. Do you see the part that Moses played in this event? What do you think would have happened had Moses not stretched forth his hands over the sea, had decided not to do what God was telling Him to do, do you think that the sea would have parted anyway?

Hebrews 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised Why does the author of Hebrews feel the need to charge his audience to hold fast to their profession of faith and not to waver?

Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: How does this work without us putting forth the effort?

The whole chapter of Hebrews 11 is full of people that received good reports because of things that they did through faith. They are examples from the Old Testament, true, but they were given to us as examples nevertheless. If the examples don't apply to us today, why were they given? By faith, Enoch pleased God:

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

You said that our faith doesn't even come from us; Enoch didn't truly please God then, God pleased Himself through Enoch, right?

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Hebrews 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. RJ, do you struggle against sin?

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: This verse tells me that this is something that I must do, not something that I should watch for in my life because it is going to happen without my having any affect on it's taking place.

We are given commandments in the New Testament, RJ. They don't start with 'Thou Shalt Not' but they are there. If nothing that we do or don't do matters in any way, I see little reason for most of the New Testament.

RJ, tell me what you believe that Jesus meant when he told us to pick up our crosses and follow Him?

 

[RJ]

RJ, you are trying to force us to make a choice between two possible answers, trying to disallow us the choice of a third possibility which we have chosen to believe because we do not see where the other two line up with some scripture.

I will continue to converse with you about this, though, perhaps we will actually finally learn something from one another.

When the Gospel is presented to a person, faith is what permits them to believe, or not, correct? By your above statement, people who don't believe, and that end up in Hell for this unbelief, only ended up with this judgement because God did not provide them with a correct measure of faith to save them.

With what you are saying, where does free will come in to play? Free will is our will, right? And do we or do we not use our own free will to choose to believe in Christ, or not? The way that a lot of people that believe in OSAS seem to believe is that we have free will until we become Christians, then it's revoked. What you seem to be saying sounds like our free will isn't even really ours to begin with; With that, no one should really even be required to believe—After Jesus died on the cross, everyone from that moment on should have been saved. But most of you maintain that we have to, at least, believe for that one initial moment.

I think that most of us that do not believe in OSAS feel that we must not only believe in Jesus ( who was the word of God made flesh ) but continue daily to believe in Jesus. If you choose to call that "works" because we believe that we have to maintain our relationships with God by continuing to obey His word, His commandments, then so be it.

I have been hearing "It's not about us, it's about Him" quite a bit for the last few years, and admittedly, I'm not sure that I get it ( I suppose that it started as a song, right? ). Did He die on the cross for Himself? Let me rephrase the question: Would Jesus have done what He did had it not been for us? No, right? So, you see, even in His death on the cross, we played our parts.

You say this as though you feel that we have been tempted to try to accept a part of the glory. We are not trying to take any of the glory for what God has done, RJ. You often say that we make a lot of the same assumptions about people that believe OSAS, but you also make a lot of assumptions about what we believe too. You think that if we don't believe what you believe then we must believe the exact opposite of what you do. That is often not the case at all.

According to scripture, RJ, who parted the Red Sea? Was it God, or was it Moses? Let's look at the verses:

Genesis 14:15 And the LORD said unto Moses, Wherefore criest thou unto me? speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward:

Genesis 14:16 But lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea.

Genesis 14:17 And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.

Genesis 14:18 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I have gotten me honour upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.

Genesis 14:19 And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:

Genesis 14:20 And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night.

Genesis 14:21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.

Genesis 14:22 And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.

Genesis 14:23 And the Egyptians pursued, and went in after them to the midst of the sea, even all Pharaoh's horses, his chariots, and his horsemen.

Genesis 14:24 And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians,

Genesis 14:25 And took off their chariot wheels, that they drave them heavily: so that the Egyptians said, Let us flee from the face of Israel; for the LORD fighteth for them against the Egyptians.

Genesis 14:26 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots, and upon their horsemen.

Genesis 14:27 And Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to his strength when the morning appeared; and the Egyptians fled against it; and the LORD overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea.

Genesis 14:28 And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them.

Genesis 14:29 But the children of Israel walked upon dry land in the midst of the sea; and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.

Genesis 14:30 Thus the LORD saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians; and Israel saw the Egyptians dead upon the sea shore.

Genesis 14:31 And Israel saw that great work which the LORD did upon the Egyptians: and the people feared the LORD, and believed the LORD, and his servant Moses.

Keep in mind that this was after the Passover and the Lamb's blood painted doorposts too. Do you see the part that Moses played in this event? What do you think would have happened had Moses not stretched forth his hands over the sea, had decided not to do what God was telling Him to do, do you think that the sea would have parted anyway?

Hebrews 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised Why does the author of Hebrews feel the need to charge his audience to hold fast to their profession of faith and not to waver?

Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: How does this work without us putting forth the effort?

The whole chapter of Hebrews 11 is full of people that received good reports because of things that they did through faith. They are examples from the Old Testament, true, but they were given to us as examples nevertheless. If the examples don't apply to us today, why were they given? By faith, Enoch pleased God:

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

You said that our faith doesn't even come from us; Enoch didn't truly please God then, God pleased Himself through Enoch, right?

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Hebrews 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. RJ, do you struggle against sin?

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: This verse tells me that this is something that I must do, not something that I should watch for in my life because it is going to happen without my having any affect on it's taking place.

We are given commandments in the New Testament, RJ. They don't start with 'Thou Shalt Not' but they are there. If nothing that we do or don't do matters in any way, I see little reason for most of the New Testament.

RJ, tell me what you believe that Jesus meant when he told us to pick up our crosses and follow Him?

Whew! That was a lot to read! lol
All I can say is that you are stuck in the Old Covenant.
We are of course in and under the New Covenant and, you simply can not quote Old Testament Scripture to support a point under the New Covenant..in salvation theology, they are worlds apart!

I will anwser your question above but please answer my question below that I have ask several times to you and Brakelite:

Please, would you or brakelite give your interpretation of "not of yourselves" and "not of works" in this following and famous verse. :

Ephesians 2

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Donnie Ducati]

Eternal Security is Scriptural.


Unconditional Security is daming.

 

[Stickz]

RJ: We are of course in and under the New Covenant and, you simply can not quote Old Testament Scripture to support a point under the New Covenant..in salvation theology, they are worlds apart!

The New Testament is full of examples from the Old Testament, RJ. Why can't I use them? Perhaps you don't read the Old Testament at all, so you don't recognize it when you see it but there is a lot of Old Testament in the New. The verses that I gave about Moses was before they received the law, RJ, but my point in using them was to show you how Moses and God seemed to be working together. I guess you didn't get it ....

I John By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. Are we supposed to love God and keep His commandments? Or does that somehow happen for us, because of Jesus, without our participation, without us making any effort to do so? Perhaps you believe that you completely fulfilled the things in this verse the day that you were saved?

Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; Do I do this, or does Jesus do this for me without any help from me? Should Paul have worded this differently?

Ephesians 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Again, do I have a part in this, or should Paul have worded this differently?

Ephesians 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Do you keep this commandment, RJ? Do you ever have to actually try to tell the truth, or does it just come naturally ( or supernaturally, perhaps ) for someone in your position? What happens if a true born-again believer, such as yourself, doesn't tell the truth to his neighbor? I've heard you say that God doesn't look at your sin anymore since you are saved, so I guess that your answer to this question would be that nothing happens. God doesn't even become even slightly angry with you because He has already forgiven you for all trespasses, past, present and future. If I believed what you seem to believe, I would say that this verse is inexpedient, and the New Testament holds many such verses. Perhaps, you believe that these verses were only meant for non-believers?

Ephesians 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

Ephesians 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.

Ephesians 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. We ( and I'm referring to people that don't believe in OSAS ) see these kind of verses as things that we are supposed to abide by, RJ, but we can't do them on our own, so we ask God to give us the strength to deal with these situations, so that we can deal with them in a righteous manner. With God and not of ourselves.

I could go on and on with these verses—and I will, if you continue to ask me to answer this same question—but I want to keep this post a little shorter than the last one.

RJ: Please, would you or brakelite give your interpretation of "not of yourselves" and "not of works" in this following and famous verse. :

I find it a little disturbing that you keep referring to this Ephesians verse as "famous".

RJ: All I can say is that you are stuck in the Old Covenant.

We don't see ourselves as being stuck in the Old Covenant. I realize that you cannot see things from our point-of-view, but I have answered this question that you keep asking numerous times and for whatever reason, you just can't understand it, I guess. Sometimes, I don't get what you are trying to say at all, either, you might as well be speaking to me in Mandarin. Perhaps, it's another one of those mysteries. One of us is blind. You think it's us, and we think it's you. I've been told on a couple of occasions, in this forum, that what I believe is going to take me to Hell. I don't feel that I have a choice but believe what I do, and you probably feel the same way. I don't see how we can both be right.

Donnie Ducati: Eternal Security is Scriptural.


Unconditional Security is daming.

Do you mean damning? If so, I'm confused. Wouldn't Eternal Security and Unconditional Security be the same thing?

 

[spirit1st]

I love seeing GODS Holy Children STAND in FAITH! It only by Faith we get any heavenly gift!

satan always tries to get us to doubt our Creator!

I will never doubt HIM even unto death!

1Pe_4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.


Rom_1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


Rom_3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:


Rom_3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom_3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.



Rom_5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom_5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.


Rom_9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;


Gal_3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal_5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.


Gal_3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.



Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Heb_13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.



Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


Mar 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

 

[spirit1st]

The Question is Always one saved always saved!

It never is Eternal life really eternal life!

Because We All understand Eternal means Eternal!

Next Question would be ? What is eternal life?

The answer then is a Relationship with GOD as Father though Jesus Christ forever more!

God as Father we as His Holy Righteous children!

God has never lost even one child!
Because HE keeps His family and Household! We Do Not keep ourselves !
Thank YOU FATHER GOD!


2Ti_1:14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

Joh_10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Joh_10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


one of my sons died! I went outside behind a bush and prayed! I said LORD i cannot stand thinking my son went to hell! You must tell me where my son is! He said was He born again ?I said yes LORD! He said i ever leave or forsake you? I said No LORD!
He said why would i leave him?

Meaning to me? I lived lots ;longer and did more evil .Yet He was faithful too me!
Bring tears to my eyes now thinking of it!

My son was 26 years old! I had prayed before He was born to have a son .I love Him very much and thank God He is in New Jerusalem now!


2Co_5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

[Donnie Ducati]

Wouldn't Eternal Security and Unconditional Security be the same thing?

Matt.25:33
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

 

[RJ]

The New Testament is full of examples from the Old Testament, RJ. Why can't I use them? Perhaps you don't read the Old Testament at all, so you don't recognize it when you see it but there is a lot of Old Testament in the New. The verses that I gave about Moses was before they received the law, RJ, but my point in using them was to show you how Moses and God seemed to be working together. I guess you didn't get it ....

I John By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. Are we supposed to love God and keep His commandments? Or does that somehow happen for us, because of Jesus, without our participation, without us making any effort to do so? Perhaps you believe that you completely fulfilled the things in this verse the day that you were saved?

Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; Do I do this, or does Jesus do this for me without any help from me? Should Paul have worded this differently?

Ephesians 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Again, do I have a part in this, or should Paul have worded this differently?

Ephesians 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Do you keep this commandment, RJ? Do you ever have to actually try to tell the truth, or does it just come naturally ( or supernaturally, perhaps ) for someone in your position? What happens if a true born-again believer, such as yourself, doesn't tell the truth to his neighbor? I've heard you say that God doesn't look at your sin anymore since you are saved, so I guess that your answer to this question would be that nothing happens. God doesn't even become even slightly angry with you because He has already forgiven you for all trespasses, past, present and future. If I believed what you seem to believe, I would say that this verse is inexpedient, and the New Testament holds many such verses. Perhaps, you believe that these verses were only meant for non-believers?

Ephesians 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

Ephesians 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.

Ephesians 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. We ( and I'm referring to people that don't believe in OSAS ) see these kind of verses as things that we are supposed to abide by, RJ, but we can't do them on our own, so we ask God to give us the strength to deal with these situations, so that we can deal with them in a righteous manner. With God and not of ourselves.

I could go on and on with these verses—and I will, if you continue to ask me to answer this same question—but I want to keep this post a little shorter than the last one.

I find it a little disturbing that you keep referring to this Ephesians verse as "famous".

We don't see ourselves as being stuck in the Old Covenant. I realize that you cannot see things from our point-of-view, but I have answered this question that you keep asking numerous times and for whatever reason, you just can't understand it, I guess. Sometimes, I don't get what you are trying to say at all, either, you might as well be speaking to me in Mandarin. Perhaps, it's another one of those mysteries. One of us is blind. You think it's us, and we think it's you. I've been told on a couple of occasions, in this forum, that what I believe is going to take me to Hell. I don't feel that I have a choice but believe what I do, and you probably feel the same way. I don't see how we can both be right.

Do you mean damning? If so, I'm confused. Wouldn't Eternal Security and Unconditional Security be the same thing?

You said:
I find it a little disturbing that you keep referring to this Ephesians verse as "famous".

Hmmm, I find it a little disturbing that you feel that way about Ephesians 2:8 but, not surprising considering your theology.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast
For most Christians I know, this verse is one of the hallmarks of their beliefs and the true meaning behind the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I don't expect you to agree because, yes, we are polar opposites about the true meaning of living under the New Covenant.

So. let's just leave it at that!

 

[spirit1st]

Salvation ,eternal life is a New Spirit that cannot sin! it has nothing to do with our weak dying flesh minds and bodies!
It Spiritual!

He did not die to make our flesh part perfect! It doomed to return to the dust it came from!
Act_7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Eze_11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Heb_12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?



1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We still live in sin filled bodies that can and do sin!No matter how hard we try to live perfect lives here in them!

1Co_2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

2Pe_1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

We have His type mind and nature in our spirit at its birth!

Our flesh mind and body will never be perfected! We all live in imperfect bodies with imperfect minds !

Rom_7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom_7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

The I is His spirit man!

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[levi]

In all of this I have something to say too.

Yes, it is written that we are saved by grace through faith. How is our faith proven? Doesn't James tell us about it? It is by works that our faith is made complete. You say you have faith but in times of troubles/testings you fail, do you call it faith? Faith is not just by saying or confessing but by living it out. We have list of heroes of faith that lived and proved their faith by works. Faith without works is dead.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

What Paul says about this verse is, it is by grace the Lord offers us eternal life and gives us strength to keep His words, to overcome evil in times of temptation.

Now about the issue of OSAS. The author of salvation was manifested in the form of flesh. But salvation is yet to come.

1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls (You will receive salvation at the end of your faith)
1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (Yes, in the last time)
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. (Yes, the hope of something which is yet to come)
Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. (nearer but not yet attained)
Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. (In heaven will the salvation come)
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. (It is in future)

Also, the Lord knows who are His and who is saved. He knows about His plans. He knows His sheep. Their names are written in the book of life. And only He (the Lamb that was slain) is worthy to open the seals and read from the book of life.

The kingdom is prepared from the foundation of the world.
Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

By faith we can say that WE are chosen before the foundation of the world.
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

But the question is who are His chosen people really. Whose names are written in the book of life? Also, there are people whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. It is a suspense. Only God knows who is going to be saved and who is going to be damned.

There is always a condition here. He gives salvation unto all that obey Him.
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

If OSAS were right, then why is there a need to fear and tremble?

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Salvation is for the few chosen ones who obey and fear the Lord.

Acts 13:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

Though the grace of God which bringeth salvation has appeared unto ALL men, yet, like it or not, only few are chosen.

 

[RJ]

In all of this I have something to say too.

Yes, it is written that we are saved by grace through faith. How is our faith proven? Doesn't James tell us about it? It is by works that our faith is made complete. You say you have faith but in times of troubles/testings you fail, do you call it faith? Faith is not just by saying or confessing but by living it out. We have list of heroes of faith that lived and proved their faith by works. Faith without works is dead.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

What Paul says about this verse is, it is by grace the Lord offers us eternal life and gives us strength to keep His words, to overcome evil in times of temptation.

Now about the issue of OSAS. The author of salvation was manifested in the form of flesh. But salvation is yet to come.

1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls (You will receive salvation at the end of your faith)
1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (Yes, in the last time)
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. (Yes, the hope of something which is yet to come)
Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. (nearer but not yet attained)
Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. (In heaven will the salvation come)
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. (It is in future)

Also, the Lord knows who are His and who is saved. He knows about His plans. He knows His sheep. Their names are written in the book of life. And only He (the Lamb that was slain) is worthy to open the seals and read from the book of life.

The kingdom is prepared from the foundation of the world.
Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

By faith we can say that WE are chosen before the foundation of the world.
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

But the question is who are His chosen people really. Whose names are written in the book of life? Also, there are people whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. It is a suspense. Only God knows who is going to be saved and who is going to be damned.

There is always a condition here. He gives salvation unto all that obey Him.
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

If OSAS were right, then why is there a need to fear and tremble?

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Salvation is for the few chosen ones who obey and fear the Lord.

Acts 13:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

Though the grace of God which bringeth salvation has appeared unto ALL men, yet, like it or not, only few are chosen.

If OSAS were right, then why is there a need to fear and tremble?

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Salvation is for the few chosen ones who obey and fear the Lord.

Fear God does not mean to be afraid or scared of him; he is a true father of love and is not mean or abusive.

You can not take fear and trembling out of context. Here are only a few other translations for those often misunderstood terms:

Reverent / Sensitive
Awe / Responsibility
fear / respect
Reverance / Awe

 

[nzdaughter]

Well lets just say since I became a Christian as a child I've always been confident in my receiving the un-loseable gift of Salvation. But lately (years later) I'm hearing some quite disturbing things lol! (lol? not really)

 

[eddieb]

to those who have or are wondering:

the scriptures are clear that if you turn what happens when you die. i will not post any of these scriptures because if you are serious about walking in the spirit you will seek him. and he will respond. he will show you just as he showed me when i had turned and desperatly tried to return again to the lover of my soul. thats right i AM speaking from experience. my advice, no matter what the situation is dont give up. God is our portion. God is all we have. with out Him, even if we have every earthly possesion, we are naked and poor. with out him we have no comfort. no peace. no love. with out him all you have is a vain exsistance of nothingness. there is nothing worse than tasting of the waters of life and then not having them. and i have been down some bumpy roads and seen some very dark times. it will make you so sad you can not cry. so empty. flee from unrighteousness because GOD AINT PLAYING GAMES. be holy as i am holy he says. there is a message of Jesus and in the bible thats simple.... stop sinning. and it is so simple. seek him with a willing heart and mind to obey him. seek him and he will by his spirit give you every resource and tool needed for victory. He wouldnt command it if he wouldnt enable or help us. not by might nor by power of man but by his spirit is how his children live. God is good.

oh yeah, and dont believe the lie that its over. why dont u just tap out. that God dosent love you any more. thats just the enemy. The gifts and calling are without repentance. God is waiting for you to return. and maybe he wont respond so quickly. this is just him testing your resolve. if you have turned, its a valuable lesson that later you will cherish.

seek him with your whole heart and then you will find him.

 

[spirit1st]

2Co_6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

I have Eternal life Now and Forever More!
No doubt in my mind!

1Pe_1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

doubt is a killer!

1Pe_4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

1Jn_4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jn_3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1Jn_3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


Joh_17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh_17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

We just dwell a Short time in worldly bodies!
Which we leave behind one day Soon !

 

[philosopher]

If a person dies in their sins, than yes, they could lose their salvation. Each time we sin, we distance ourselves from God and are no longer in his loving graceful presence. Once saved always saved, is strictly a man-made doctrine to excuse sinful behaviour. Btw, excellent post eddieb, spot on mate.

 

[eddieb]

it aint me. promise.

 

[RJ]

If a person dies in their sins, than yes, they could lose their salvation. Each time we sin, we distance ourselves from God and are no longer in his loving graceful presence. Once saved always saved, is strictly a man-made doctrine to excuse sinful behaviour. Btw, excellent post eddieb, spot on mate.

Please provide scripture where we would no longer be in God's graceful presence.

I believe in OSAS and I never use it for and excuse for sinful behavior! Why is it that we are always accused of that?

I say this with all due love and respect, I grow tired of this kind of labeling.

I have never, not once in any thread here at TJ have I seen a person who beleives in Eternal Security, that states that they now have an excuse to sin. That is an insult! What kind of Christian would We be if we felt that way about sin, we would not be one...that's what!

So please, all of you who feel this way, either show threads that support this type of behavior or stop the gossep!!

Btw, unless you can point it out, I see no scripture that says that, once God is in you as promised by the New Covenant, that he will leave for any reason.

I see Jesus telling Nicodemus, that "You must be Born Again"! I see no scripture that states that there is any such thing as being "un-born"!