Presbyterian assembly: Gay marriage is Christian

[RJ]

• Liberal and progressive theology is creeping into our churches.
• If you belieive in this, well, I pray for you as I pray for our country.

DETROIT — The top legislative body of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) voted by large margins Thursday to recognize same-sex marriage as Christian in the church constitution, adding language that marriage can be the union of "two people," not just "a man and a woman."
The amendment approved by the Presbyterian General Assembly requires approval from a majority of the 172 regional presbyteries, which will vote on the change over the next year. But in a separate policy change that takes effect at the end of this week's meeting, delegates voted to allow ministers to preside at gay weddings in states where the unions are legal and local congregational leaders approve. Nineteen states and the District of Columbia recognize same-sex marriage.
The votes, during a national meeting in Detroit, were a sweeping victory for Presbyterian gay-rights advocates. The denomination in 2011 eliminated barriers to ordaining clergy with same-sex partners, but ministers were still barred from celebrating gay marriages and risked church penalties for doing so. Alex McNeill, executive director of More Light Presbyterians, a gay advocacy group, said the decisions Thursday were "an answer to many prayers."
The Rev. Krystin Granberg of the New York Presbytery, where the state recognizes gay marriage, said she receives requests "all the time" from friends and parishioners to preside at their weddings.
"They want to be married in the church they love and they want me to do it," Granberg said during the debate. "I want pastoral relief."
But Bill Norton, of the Presbytery de Cristo, which covers parts of Arizona and New Mexico, urged the assembly to delay any changes. "We are laying hands on something that is holy, that God has given us, so we need to be sure any changes we make are in accord with God's will revealed in Scripture," Norton said.
Since the 2011 gay ordination vote, 428 of the denomination's more than 10,000 churches have left for other more conservative denominations or have dissolved, though some theological conservatives have remained within the denomination as they decide how to move forward. The church now has about 1.8 million members.
The conservative Presbyterian Lay Committee decried the votes in Detroit as an "abomination." The assembly voted 371-238 to allow ministers to celebrate same-sex marriages, and 429-175 in favor of amending the definition of marriage in the constitution.
"The General Assembly has committed an express repudiation of the Bible, the mutually agreed upon Confessions of the PCUSA, thousands of years of faithfulness to God's clear commands and the denominational ordination vows of each concurring commissioner," the Presbyterian Lay Committee said in a statement.
Of the mainline Protestant denominations, only the United Church of Christ supports gay marriage outright. The Episcopal Church has approved a prayer service for blessing same-sex unions. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America has eliminated barriers for gay clergy but allows regional and local church officials to decide their own policies on ordination and blessings for same-sex couples.
The largest mainline group, the United Methodist Church, with about 7.8 million U.S. members, bars ordaining people in same-sex relationships. However, church members have been debating whether to split over their different views of the Bible and marriage. Gay marriage supporters have been recruiting clergy to openly officiate at same-sex ceremonies in protest of church policy.

 

[james1523]

• Liberal and progressive theology is creeping into our churches.
• If you belieive in this, well, I pray for you as I pray for our country.

DETROIT —The top legislative body of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) voted by large margins Thursday to recognize same-sex marriage as Christian in the church constitution, adding language that marriage can be the union of "two people," not just "a man and a woman."
The amendment approved by the Presbyterian General Assembly requires approval from a majority of the 172 regional presbyteries, which will vote on the change over the next year. But in a separate policy change that takes effect at the end of this week's meeting, delegates voted to allow ministers to preside at gay weddings in states where the unions are legal and local congregational leaders approve. Nineteen states and the District of Columbia recognize same-sex marriage.
The votes, during a national meeting in Detroit, were a sweeping victory for Presbyterian gay-rights advocates. The denomination in 2011 eliminated barriers to ordaining clergy with same-sex partners, but ministers were still barred from celebrating gay marriages and risked church penalties for doing so. Alex McNeill, executive director of More Light Presbyterians, a gay advocacy group, said the decisions Thursday were "an answer to many prayers."
The Rev. Krystin Granberg of the New York Presbytery, where the state recognizes gay marriage, said she receives requests "all the time" from friends and parishioners to preside at their weddings.
"They want to be married in the church they love and they want me to do it," Granberg said during the debate. "I want pastoral relief."
But Bill Norton, of the Presbytery de Cristo, which covers parts of Arizona and New Mexico, urged the assembly to delay any changes. "We are laying hands on something that is holy, that God has given us, so we need to be sure any changes we make are in accord with God's will revealed in Scripture," Norton said.
Since the 2011 gay ordination vote, 428 of the denomination's more than 10,000 churches have left for other more conservative denominations or have dissolved, though some theological conservatives have remained within the denomination as they decide how to move forward. The church now has about 1.8 million members.
The conservative Presbyterian Lay Committee decried the votes in Detroit as an "abomination." The assembly voted 371-238 to allow ministers to celebrate same-sex marriages, and 429-175 in favor of amending the definition of marriage in the constitution.
"The General Assembly has committed an express repudiation of the Bible, the mutually agreed upon Confessions of the PCUSA, thousands of years of faithfulness to God's clear commands and the denominational ordination vows of each concurring commissioner," the Presbyterian Lay Committee said in a statement.
Of the mainline Protestant denominations, only the United Church of Christ supports gay marriage outright. The Episcopal Church has approved a prayer service for blessing same-sex unions. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America has eliminated barriers for gay clergy but allows regional and local church officials to decide their own policies on ordination and blessings for same-sex couples.
The largest mainline group, the United Methodist Church, with about 7.8 million U.S. members, bars ordaining people in same-sex relationships. However, church members have been debating whether to split over their different views of the Bible and marriage. Gay marriage supporters have been recruiting clergy to openly officiate at same-sex ceremonies in protest of church policy.

Mistake number one is for us to think they are a church. They are not, they are man-made organization. Do we really think that God would appoint gay-marriage supporting leaders in His church? Mistake number two, which stems from mistake number one, is to think this is a degradation of a true church, when it is merely a false church showing its true colors. The degradation started around the time they began ordaining female ministers I suppose.

 

[RJ]

Mistake number one is for us to think they are a church. They are not, they are man-made organization. Do we really think that God would appoint gay-marriage supporting leaders in His church? Mistake number two, which stems from mistake number one, is to think this is a degradation of a true church, when it is merely a false church showing its true colors. The degradation started around the time they began ordaining female ministers I suppose.

• The Presbyterians have split over all this. Many, including the biggest Presbyterian Church in Houston has split-off and joined the Evangelistic Presbytery that don't condone this change in definition of marriage.
• If my church doesn't pull away and move to the Evangelistic Presbytery or pull out completely and fom a Non-denominational church, I will forced to leave.
• Many denominations are supporting this change to include gay liberation; they stem from a change in conservative theology to Liberal and Progressive Theologies that are becoming more prevailant. These secular based theologies will call me a Homophobe. The Bible calls for us to love our neighbors as ourselves. Jesus took it a step further and to love our enemies. But with either group, including adulterers, homosexuals, etc., the Bible says nothing about liking what these groups believe or do.
• The truth is, we have always had homosexuals. The point is that having a regenerated and repentant heart, is a trademark of a true Christian. If you are a homosexual and call yourself a Christian, my guess is you better have Christ in you and repentant of your sex sin.
• I actually believe all this is a part of prophecy: "In the days of Noah"....and..."In the days of Lott", so shall it be before the coming of man.

 

[B-A-C]

The Presbyterians have split over all this. Many, including the biggest Presbyterian Church in Houston has split-off and joined the Evangelistic Presbytery that don't condone this change in definition of marriage.
If my church doesn't pull away and move to the Evangelistic Presbytery or pull out completely and fom a Non-denominational church, I will forced to leave.
Many denominations are supporting this change to include gay liberation; they stem from a change in conservative theology to Liberal and Progressive Theologies that are becoming more prevailant. These secular based theologies will call me a Homophobe. The Bible calls for us to love our neighbors as ourselves. Jesus took it a step further and to love our enemies. But with either group, including adulterers, homosexuals, etc., the Bible says nothing about liking what these groups believe or do.
The truth is, we have always had homosexuals. The point is that having a regenerated and repentant heart, is a trademark of a true Christian. If you are a homosexual and call yourself a Christian, my guess is you better have Christ in you and repentant of your sex sin.
I actually believe all this is a part of prophecy: "In the days of Noah"....and..."In the days of Lott", so shall it be before the coming of man.

It is funny how society changes. I am old enough to remember times before women's liberation and sexual equality, and pro-choice abortions.
Unfortunately these things have been around so long that no one even questions anything wrong with them anymore. While there is nothing wrong with a woman working,
(my wife works) I think it has become common place to have children raised by televisions, video games, internet chats, and even babysitters. There is nothing wrong with
babysitters, but they are not parents. Nanny's are not parents, day cares and pres-schools are not parents. Mom's and Dad's should be parents. I am told I am old fashioned
and chauvinistic for even saying such a thing, so be it. Perhaps, I am.. but it wasn't even a question 40 or 50 years ago.
The next generation will not question gay marriage or homosexuality, they will assume it's either always been this way, or it was always supposed to be this way.
It is very prevalent, in media, television, movies, internet, taught in schools, supported by governments, and yes even by some churches unfortunately. So of course
that makes it "normal". If schools and governments support it, it can't really be wrong can it?

The problem with many churches today is that they let society dictate what is right or wrong rather than God's Word. As you say we are then labeled homophobes.
(Phobia means fear) however I don't fear them, I just disagree with their lifestyle. It's like my kids, I don't agree with everything they do, but I can still love them.
(It isn't always easy). And so we as Christians can love the LGBT community, even if we don't agree with their lifestyle choices. I believe God loves them also,
he doesn't like their life style choices, and He will judge them (although many of them don't believe that) and He knows their hearts and if they are repentant or
if they have "gay pride". Some friends of mine have started calling certain people who don't want to talk about Jesus "Christophobes" and people who don't want to talk
about the Bible "Biblephobes". I don't know if this is edifying to God, but I confess I find it somewhat humorous.

While much is said about the gay and lesbian homosexual communities, not much is said about bi-sexuals and transexuals. I have maybe even a little more problem with these groups.
I believe that someone who has had a sex change is practically saying God made a mistake. I wasn't meant to be this way. Can you be forgiven? Maybe, but it will be very difficult
to repent of this and go back to "not doing this" anymore. These communities also talk about love quite a bit, and say their love is like heterosexual love. I love other men, I loved
my father, my sons, men I work with and other men in my church. But I'm not gay. So then it's really not about love. The bi-sexuals claim to love people of both sexes. Hmmmm...
well if this is true, how can you be true and loyal to one person?

 

[B-A-C]

You know I just posted that last message less than 3 minutes ago and a thought I occurs to me.

In Acts 5:1-10; did God still love Ananias and Sapphira in their sin? If so why did he strike them down?
Did God love the immoral son in 1 Cor 5:1-5; ?
Did God love Herod in Acts 12:23: ?
Did God love Judas in his betrayal?

On one hand we have people like the woman at the well, and the woman caught in adultery (John 8:11; ), also the lame man in John 5:8-14;
Jesus forgave them all, but he told them not to sin anymore. These were new believers, people who didn't know better.
What about people who have claimed to be Christians for a very long time and know God's Word and do know better?

Rom 9:13; Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
Hmmm... so why did God hate Esau?

Heb 12:16; that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own inheritance for a single meal.
Could it be that some of us, by our lifestyles are choosing to give up our eternal inheritance?

 

[james1523]

• The Presbyterians have split over all this. Many, including the biggest Presbyterian Church in Houston has split-off and joined the Evangelistic Presbytery that don't condone this change in definition of marriage.
• If my church doesn't pull away and move to the Evangelistic Presbytery or pull out completely and fom a Non-denominational church, I will forced to leave.
• Many denominations are supporting this change to include gay liberation; they stem from a change in conservative theology to Liberal and Progressive Theologies that are becoming more prevailant. These secular based theologies will call me a Homophobe. The Bible calls for us to love our neighbors as ourselves. Jesus took it a step further and to love our enemies. But with either group, including adulterers, homosexuals, etc., the Bible says nothing about liking what these groups believe or do.
• The truth is, we have always had homosexuals. The point is that having a regenerated and repentant heart, is a trademark of a true Christian. If you are a homosexual and call yourself a Christian, my guess is you better have Christ in you and repentant of your sex sin.
• I actually believe all this is a part of prophecy: "In the days of Noah"....and..."In the days of Lott", so shall it be before the coming of man.

I've been there, part of a denominational church that grew to accept homosexual marriage, new age, and occult practices. When these things happen with the church leadership I feel it's time to get out. I feel no sense of duty or attachment to the organizations, I feel sorry for the genuine Christians who are in them, because they have no alternative, or they hope for change. I know that God will lead you and your fellow church members in the right direction.