Member
But this is borderline circular reasoning. How do you know all scripture is given by inspiration of God? To answer that question, you can't use the bible if you wish not to commit circular reasoning.
Respectfully,
Traverse
proof
But this is borderline circular reasoning. How do you know all scripture is given by inspiration of God? To answer that question, you can't use the bible if you wish not to commit circular reasoning.
Respectfully,
Traverse
Member
"Worldly" thinking is thinking inspired by demons. Seriously. Please allow me to elaborate. I will show you from scripture, then I will expand on those ideas to relate them to how people live today.
The Spiritual battle that's going down, the battle between good and evil, God and Satan, Christianity and the world, is ultimately a battle between selflessness and selfishness. The scriptures give examples of this:
James 3:13-16
13 Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth. 15 This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice.
When Jesus rebuked Peter for selfishly wanting to keep the Lord from sacrificing Himself for the sins of the world, He called him Satan:
Mark 8:32-33
31 And he began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32 And he said this plainly. And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. 33 But turning and seeing his disciples, he rebuked Peter and said, “Get behind me, Satan! For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”
As Christians, we are called to "die" to ourselves. This means we live a life surrendered to Jesus. Why does He want us to surrender to Him? So He can serve others through our vessel. We become the hands and feet of Jesus, and He is the head that does all the thinking:
Colossians 1:18
18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.
1 Corinthians 12:12-14
12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves[d] or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many.
This Body of Christ is united and guided by the Holy Spirit. When a Christians really submits to the Lord, Jesus' Holy Spirit manifests mightily. So, whatever good things that person does are empowered by God, anointed to draw people supernaturally to Him to save them. These manifestations are known as "spiritual" gifts. They are all meant to empower the follower and serve others:
1 Corinthians 12:4-7
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
Now what separates Christians doing good deeds and people of the world doing good deeds is that Christians who do good deeds do so in the name of Jesus. These deeds will be empowered supernaturally to heal people, give them peace, and draw them to God to be saved. These deeds are truly selfless, as the power of God won't manifest if one's heart isn't straight. That's part of dying to ourselves. All the glory must go to God, as it's His power and His love that pours out of us as we serve others. It's truly a selfless kind way of living.
Even the most sincere worldly do-gooders (I'm a former one) do things, ultimately, for their own egos and glory. You will see them say, "Oh, it was nothing." In their hearts, however, they receive satisfaction. Many people even talk about the satisfaction drawn from helping others. They may not know it, but it's actually based upon what they want, and not truly a selfless act. There are plenty of Christians doing this, too, because too few actually teach or preach about what it means to die to self.
1 Corinthians 1:27-29
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
God truly deserves every bit of glory for what His children do in His name, as it's His power and love that manifest.
What happens to all the "good deeds" done out of selfishness by people who aren't submitted to the Lord? The same thing that happens to the "good deeds" done by Christians who aren't submitting to the Lord. Before I tell you, though, remember that God is sovereign. He knows the end from the beginning. He knows exactly what to do and when to do it. So when people do good deeds without following His lead, it's all for not and gets burned up like hay:
1 Corinthians 3:10-15
10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
When we surrender, die to self, and follow what the Lord wants us to do, He will guide us and empower us to to great exploits. Of course, He gets all the glory, as is only right. It's all His work through us.
So, worldly thinking is selfish thinking. Spiritual thinking is selfless thinking, relying upon God to serve others through our vessels.
I hope this helps. I imagine it may have been a long-winded, roundabout way, but I wanted to be thorough in my explanation.
blessings to you
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Member
By Grace Alone,
So how can one practically distinguish between "Godly acts" and "Worldly acts"?
Respectfully,
Traverse
So how can one practically distinguish between "Godly acts" and "Worldly acts"?
Respectfully,
Traverse
Member
I suppose the easiest way to say this would be........Godly acts or the kindness and compassion of Christ come from within us. We desire to help someone, or to be kind, or to live in a good way. No reward is desired or expected. The acts come from within us.
Worldly acts would be some of the same kindness and help but done for self serving reasons or even to make a profit in some way due to the situation.
An example would be something like this.
Homes are being built by volunteers for the poor. People of all walks of life help for a day or more, and little is said or known, and they do this out of kindness. That is a Godly act.
Now, another company, could be plumbing, electrical, roofing or whatever helps more than the ones struggling to conduct this work with donated supplies, so this company donates several HVAC systems or wires a few home, for free. But......but.......they promote this and get there name all over the T.V. and the news as free advertisement for that particular company. The cost of the advertising is much more costly than the donated work. So they do this good deed for a worldly reason. For the reason of self profit and self worth. Looky at us, see what we did, remember us well and give us a call. Our phone number is .............
What I am saying is acts of God come from within us. Acts of the world come from within us too, but one is guided by God and the other is self guided for self made reasons.
Kit
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Member
Good post and examples.
Member
So it's a matter of intent. I fail to see how God plays a role in this. I can intend to do good and do good without god. Why can't believers?
Respectfully,
Traverse
Member
Hello Mr Traverse.
Your question was,
"But this is borderline circular reasoning. How do you know all scripture is given by inspiration of God?
To answer that question, you can't use the bible if you wish not to commit circular reasoning."
It is not circular reasoning, it is not reasoning at all.
I am surprised by your question Mr Traverse?
Are you aware that God provides the revelation.
I really only know because God allows me to know.
Your question was,
"But this is borderline circular reasoning. How do you know all scripture is given by inspiration of God?
To answer that question, you can't use the bible if you wish not to commit circular reasoning."
It is not circular reasoning, it is not reasoning at all.
I am surprised by your question Mr Traverse?
Are you aware that God provides the revelation.
I really only know because God allows me to know.
Member
Why can't believers do good without god? Because they wouldn't be believers if they did good without God! :wink:
All kidding aside, I know what you mean by your question (correct me if I'm wrong). You want to know why Christians don't think good works can be done apart from God? Or why we need God as an excuse or motivation to do good? I will try my best to answer these questions..........
To that I would say the word, "good", is subjective. "Jesus-good" is dying for His enemies, whereas it would be hard to find a "good" person that would do the same, let alone die for a friend. If Jesus had died and then said we owe Him something, that wouldn't have been a totally selfless act. But His good deed required nothing from us, but to believe and by faith receive His gift.
I know you don't believe in God, so I was only making that point to hopefully differentiate between totally unselfish good and the "good" that humans do.
Could I do good if I didn't believe in God? Sure. But where does the standard for "good" come from, apart from God? Is good whatever the majority thinks it is? Is it whatever is good for "number 1"?
If you were cold and hungry I would give you food and the jacket off my back, without question and without hesitation. Could you honestly say you would do likewise?
Most atheists I have known, and I was one at one time, have self-interest at heart, not others' interests. Therefore, to say one can be good without God does not mean one will be. You don't need God to do some good, but I believe you do need Him to do good consistently.
Is the implication of your question, that Christians only do good because they have a God that is forcing them to against their wills, under threat of damnation if they don't; or because they do it for rewards in this life or the next, whereas atheists do good because they really want to? IE: we have hidden selfish, self-centered motivations, while atheists are truly benevolent?
One of the reasons Christians do good deeds is because Christ's goodness shines through them, but it would be a stretch for you to say that that's the only reason a Christian does good. After all, I don't know of any Christian that was born one, do you?
Which means all of us were non-believers at one time. So it would be inconsistent for you to say that you, as an atheist, can do good works apart from God, but Christians only do good because of God. Because that would in effect be saying that Christians didn't do any good until they became Christians, hence you would be defeating your own premise. Do you know what I mean?
I don't get why atheists have this assumption that believers only do good because God tells us to, or expects us to, or that our motives are not always (or ever?) altogether altruistic.
The very tenet of our faith is that there is nothing we can do to earn salvation, other than have a believing faith. So any "good works" I do is not to curry favor with God, or to try impress He who is no respecter of persons and cannot be bribed.
If I do good deeds it is because 1) it is a pleasure to 2) it is better to give than receive 3) God's love inside me cannot be kept bottled up inside 4) I have a heart-felt compassion for those that are down on their luck, homeless, whatever the case may be, as I have not been immune to hard times in my life 5) ( and yes) we are commanded in scripture to do good unto others.
Now let me ask you a question, why do you do a good deed? And why do you assume that a Christian can't do it for the same reason as you? Christians aren't robots. We have freewill and minds and personalities, etc. We don't HAVE to listen to God if He asks us to do something. But therein lies the rub, we don't do it because we have to (I'm just speaking for myself here), but because it is a joy to. I have the joy of Christ in me.
Now, I know a lot of atheists don't like when something along the lines of my next point is made, but I feel I need to make it nonetheless. Which is, most of the charity work, locally and internationally, is done by Christian organizations, not atheists. And it is not because there are less atheists than Christians.
Now, if it s okay for you to generalize about Christian charity, allow me to about atheists. If an atheist group does charity work, could it not be said that one of their (if not their primary) motivations would be to change the stereotype Christians, or people in general, may have about atheists, that they are not very giving people??
I happen to think that that is a big motivating factor behind atheist charity - a public relations campaign to change their image - judging from what I have seen in atheist charity work. Hence, atheists do not do good works for purely unselfish reasons, so why question Christians about their charity work?
How can you understand what motivates a believer when you are not one? You don't know what it is like to be filled by the love of God. I wish it weren't so! On the other hand, I wasn't always a believer, so I do have a perspective from both sides of the fence, whereas you only have one perspective.......
And as an unbeliever I had non-believer friends, and I didn't see any magnanimity in their day to day actions, what I did see was a general "me first" attitude; an "it's a dog eat dog world" attitude; a "live it up while you can" mentality, etc.
I hope you have not taken this post in the wrong the spirit, as I have not meant to attack you as a person or as an atheist, rather I was just curious that a non-believer would think his good without a god is unquestionable, but somehow a believers' good with a God is questionable.
I'm not sure if I answered your question or not, and I certainly hadn't intended to write this much! It's late and I'm tired, so I'll leave it as is.
But one last thing, why do you care what the motive is for what a Christian does charity-wise? Even if I DID believe only Christians can do good, why would that bother you? It doesn't bother me that you think atheists can do good without a god.
Respectfully,
Peace Seeker
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Member
I am aware of the claims. Thus far, they are unsubstantiated.
Which means you don't really know, as we understand the word epistemologically speaking. You believe the claims contained in scripture, and your evidence for those claims is the claims contained in scripture.
So by that logic, you should also believe the claims of all the other religions solely based upon the fact that they are being claimed.
Respectfully,
Traverse
Member
I like to point out that usually the standard for good and bad come from the individual making that assessment. How do you know God is good and should be trusted if not by your own individual assessment of whether God meets your own individual understanding of what constitutes "good"?
If your only standard for good is God himself, then good and bad become useless terms because there is no consistent definition of what they mean. They could mean anything according to that standard. God could one day proclaim slavery is good (which he has done in the bible), and according to that standard slavery would be good simply because God said so.
But I think even you as a Christian would disagree with God on that point. You probably believe slavery is bad. If that is the case then your standard for good is not God, and nor is it dependent upon God.
Of course. Theism is not a prerequisite for that act.
But I'm not claiming anyone WILL be good. It's difficult to claim anyone will be good if they are Christian, too. The fact is that anyone CAN be good without God, therefore God is not a prerequisite for good actions.
No. I thought you understood where I was getting at with you previous statement "You want to know why Christians don't think good works can be done apart from God?".
The implication from what I'm saying is that both Christians and atheists alike do not need the belief in a God to be good, nor the existence of a God to be good. The fact that most Christians, if not all, that I know personally and talk to on the internet do not view slavery as morally good whereas the Bible details that their God clearly does, is evidence of this.
But that's exactly what I hear Christians claiming. Even you are. You say that you can only be good, or consistently good, with this belief in this particular God, which says that Christians can't be consistently good without God. That is patently false.
Because this is what Christians tell us. Even your question of where our standard for good comes from if not from god presupposes one cannot be good without God. This is a message that has been propagated by Christians, and you continue to propagate it while at the same time finding it invalid. It's very confusing.
EXACTLY. You are the arbiter of the standard for what constitutes good. You have determined that the commandments from God that you follow are good, and the ones you don't follow are not so good (like slavery).
Where did I question Christians about their charity work? How is this at all relevant to the discussion?
The percentage of atheists in the general population is significantly higher than the percentage of atheists in the prison population. And the percentage of Christians in the general population is lower or equal to the percentage of Christians in the prison population. Which means atheists are underrepresented in prison because there are a smaller percentage in prison than outside in the general population. But Christians are overrepresented or equally represented.
Does this mean that Atheists are better than Christians? I'm not so arrogant to claim that, even with the statistics available, and I certainly wouldn't be arrogant enough to use these statistics as a personal attack against you, like you're doing against me regarding your presumptions of atheist charities. According to you, I only do good to look good to other people. How arrogant of you to imply such a thing.
I understand what motivates Christians when they tell me what motivates them. But as I've been saying, I disagree that God motivates Christians as much as they think God does, otherwise they'd all agree that slavery is morally good, like god does.
Where have I said or implied anything close to that? No, this was clearly meant as a personal attack on my character solely for the fact that I believe in 1 less God than you do.
Respectfully,
Traverse
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Member
Hello Mr Traverse.
Thanks for the reply.
I said "revelation" did I not.
Without a revelation of God, a man is ignorant.
Without a revelation from God then, man remains in the dark.
Revelation is the light switch.
Revelation and epistemology are separate areas.
What is it that I am required to substantiate in your opinion?
Thanks for the reply.
I said "revelation" did I not.
Without a revelation of God, a man is ignorant.
Without a revelation from God then, man remains in the dark.
Revelation is the light switch.
Revelation and epistemology are separate areas.
What is it that I am required to substantiate in your opinion?
Member
The heavens declair the glory of God so go out side and look up.