Question regarding Commands of Jesus

[Hiswillbedone]

This seems like an interesting discussion. It basically boils down to salvation by works and salvation by grace?
Correct me if I am wrong, but that seems to be the general spirit of this discussion.

If salvation is in question, then it makes sense to go to the author of our salvation... which is Jesus. If we start and finish there, then I think we can come to a united decision on what the truth is, however, if we hold onto what we believe in, even though it is contrary to what Jesus said, then we are playing with fire.

From what I can read, there is a lot of discussion going back and forth about what it means to receive salvation. One side says its free and there is nothing we can do to 'earn' salvation. This I believe is true, however, this idea falls when the same people that believe this, will then go and tell you, "what you must DO is Accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior and be baptized in water in order to receive salvation". Pause. So is it free, or do I have to say a prayer asking Jesus into my heart in order to receive salvation? Does this not constitute work in the minds of the people that holds such a stance? Food for thought.

The other side is saying what me must do is obey Jesus to the best of our ability in order to not only be saved, but maintain our salvation. This, I also believe is true, however, this argument can still fall if the people preaching it becomes self-righteous about their works and think this is what really saves us. That is not true, what saves us is the sacrifice that Jesus paid on the cross. How we respond to this, is what makes all the difference. I'll elaborate more on that in a second.

Now what we must do is find the balance between both approaches, and find the truth. After all, that is what we are looking for... right?

Does Jesus say all we have to do is say a prayer asking Jesus into our heart to be saved?
The simple answer is no. No where in the four gospels does Jesus say that all we have to do is accept Jesus into our heart to be saved. The only thing close to this can be found in an epistle of Paul (NOTE: Though Paul is in the bible, He is still fallible, so if there seems to be a contradiction in what Paul says and what Jesus says, then I will side with Jesus. I think I have better chances when I stand before God if I do that) in Romans 10:9," That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." This is commonly referred to as the Romans road. This appears to support the idea that all we have to do is confess Jesus into our heart, and this is the only work that constitutes salvation (I know people may think this shouldn't be considered a "work", but I think this is only because of the biases that these people want to hold onto. The question has to be: Can I still be saved without saying this prayer? If the answer is no, then it is still salvation by works, if not, then the answer has to be yes, which will put a BIG hole in the theology of salvation by grace. Food For Thought.). With all scriptures, it is important to look at the context, of not only the passage, but the historically as well. When Paul wrote this letter to the church in Rome, it was still governed by Rome and their soldiers. They made believing in Jesus as the son of God and his Resurrection illegal to proclaim/preach. Therefore, anyone who followed this command of Paul would be either jailed/killed for doing that. This, IMO, would be all that someone would need to do if questioned whether or not they believed in Jesus, in order prove to Jesus that they did believe in Him. There was very real consequences for doing this.
Today, however, there isn't such a consequence for confessing Jesus with our mouth (unless we go to radical muslim countries. This, however, isn't the case for most of us who live in the 1st world), so the same method of salvation wouldn't be valid. Anybody could fake it without ever producing the fruit that a real person saved in Christ would have showed back in Paul's day (i.e. being a martry or jailed for confessing Jesus). I conclude: This is an isolated passage that can be used to prove the side of 'saved by grace' but after examining it, it doesn't hold when put into context and compared to the rest of what Jesus taught. Therefore, it is an isolated passage in scripture that people build whole doctrines on to support their man made doctrine.

The other passage of scripture, probably the more reliable one to Paul's, is John 3:16. We all know what it says so I won't bother quoting it (excuse my laziness). The main part to focus on is the word "believe". If believing in Jesus is what we must do in order to be saved, then what does the word "believe" mean in context? There are only two options: 1) someone believes in Jesus; that He was real, He died on the cross and rose again, and that He was generally a nice fella... respectable. 2) we believe in everything that He stood for, which includes His teachings that He spend most of His ministry preaching (including the various miracles).

Option 1) How does God know that we believe in His son? In other words, what must someone do in order for God to say, "Yes this is a believer in my son?" One would say," all those that confess Jesus as Lord are the ones that truly believe Jesus." Is that what you think? What does Jesus say, Luke 6:46," Why do you call me, Lord, Lord, yet you don't do the things that I say." It seems clear that just professing Jesus as Lord isn't what He considers to be someone that believes in Him. Maybe this is only an isolated passage, I can hear you say? Does Jesus say this somewhere else? Great question! He does in, "Matthew 7:21," Not everyone (this word 'everyone' is important, because many will say 'Jesus was referring ONLY to the false prophets'. This word however seems to reply to EVERYONE, not a select group) saying to me Lord, Lord, will enter (in other words, "just because they call Jesus Lord, doesn't mean they are saved) into the Kingdom of Heaven, but only those that DO the Will (which implies a work to be done) of my Father will Enter therein." Pause. There is a new variable to consider. I know people, stay with me, I am wrapping it up soon. What is the Will of Jesus' Father? In John 6:40 Jesus says,"For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life." Oh Dear! Looks like we went full circle! We are back where we started: What does it mean to believe in Jesus? Which brings me to Option 2.

Option 2) Does obeying the person we SAY we believe in show evidence of faith in said person? Imagine you were in a room and someone said there was a bomb about to explode in 10 seconds. How will you determine who believed those words and who didn't? Simple question isn't it... whoever left the room BELIEVED in the words of the one who brought the message, and whoever didn't leave the room, didn't believe the words of said person.

This my friends, is the answer... If we say that we believe in Jesus, then that will naturally cause us to obey everything that Jesus taught us to do, if we don't believe in Jesus, then we will fight tooth in nail NOT to obey His teachings. If belief is what saves us, then works it inseparable from salvation. At least, according to Jesus.
Just to be clear, I do agree that no amount of works can earn us salvation, however, if we use that as justification NOT to obey Jesus' teachings to the best of our ability, then that is where you are living in a 'false grace' doctrine made up by the devil and his children to lead people away from Jesus.

Very briefly I will touch on the topic of the greatest commandments. If those are the only two commands that we have to follow, then doesn't that mean that we still HAVE to follow them (therefore we must try to do works)? It seems that the argument is that these are the only two we have to obey, while we disregard the other teachings, as if Jesus just said these things for no reason? That is what someone has to believe if they say,"we only have to follow these two commandments ",which implies we must not follow the rest of what Jesus taught. I think by following what Jesus taught, IS, the only away to obey these two commandments. After all, the Son of God came to this world to show us how we should live. Doesn't it make sense that He would be the example we should follow if we want to truly love God and our Neighbor?

I will pose a challenge out to both sides. Which side is willing to obey Jesus above all else? Whether you believe it will save you or it won't really doesn't matter.

If you love this person Jesus for dying on the cross for you, and He asked you to pick up your own cross and follow Him... Then are you willing to do that? Are you willing to leave house, fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, children, and give up your own life for the sake of the gospel? I think the answer to this last question is what will determine those who believe in Jesus as our Lord and saviour who died on the cross for us and rose on the third day, from those that don't.

In peace and love

 

[Dave M]

This seems like an interesting discussion. It basically boils down to salvation by works and salvation by grace?
Correct me if I am wrong, but that seems to be the general spirit of this discussion.

works proves salvation it does not provide salvation

 

[Chad4Him]

This seems like an interesting discussion. It basically boils down to salvation by works and salvation by grace?
Correct me if I am wrong, but that seems to be the general spirit of this discussion.

If salvation is in question, then it makes sense to go to the author of our salvation... which is Jesus. If we start and finish there, then I think we can come to a united decision on what the truth is, however, if we hold onto what we believe in, even though it is contrary to what Jesus said, then we are playing with fire.

From what I can read, there is a lot of discussion going back and forth about what it means to receive salvation. One side says its free and there is nothing we can do to 'earn' salvation. This I believe is true, however, this idea falls when the same people that believe this, will then go and tell you, "what you must DO is Accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior and be baptized in water in order to receive salvation". Pause. So is it free, or do I have to say a prayer asking Jesus into my heart in order to receive salvation? Does this not constitute work in the minds of the people that holds such a stance? Food for thought.

The other side is saying what me must do is obey Jesus to the best of our ability in order to not only be saved, but maintain our salvation. This, I also believe is true, however, this argument can still fall if the people preaching it becomes self-righteous about their works and think this is what really saves us. That is not true, what saves us is the sacrifice that Jesus paid on the cross. How we respond to this, is what makes all the difference. I'll elaborate more on that in a second.

Now what we must do is find the balance between both approaches, and find the truth. After all, that is what we are looking for... right?

Does Jesus say all we have to do is say a prayer asking Jesus into our heart to be saved?
The simple answer is no. No where in the four gospels does Jesus say that all we have to do is accept Jesus into our heart to be saved. The only thing close to this can be found in an epistle of Paul (NOTE: Though Paul is in the bible, He is still fallible, so if there seems to be a contradiction in what Paul says and what Jesus says, then I will side with Jesus. I think I have better chances when I stand before God if I do that) in Romans 10:9," That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." This is commonly referred to as the Romans road. This appears to support the idea that all we have to do is confess Jesus into our heart, and this is the only work that constitutes salvation (I know people may think this shouldn't be considered a "work", but I think this is only because of the biases that these people want to hold onto. The question has to be: Can I still be saved without saying this prayer? If the answer is no, then it is still salvation by works, if not, then the answer has to be yes, which will put a BIG hole in the theology of salvation by grace. Food For Thought.). With all scriptures, it is important to look at the context, of not only the passage, but the historically as well. When Paul wrote this letter to the church in Rome, it was still governed by Rome and their soldiers. They made believing in Jesus as the son of God and his Resurrection illegal to proclaim/preach. Therefore, anyone who followed this command of Paul would be either jailed/killed for doing that. This, IMO, would be all that someone would need to do if questioned whether or not they believed in Jesus, in order prove to Jesus that they did believe in Him. There was very real consequences for doing this.
Today, however, there isn't such a consequence for confessing Jesus with our mouth (unless we go to radical muslim countries. This, however, isn't the case for most of us who live in the 1st world), so the same method of salvation wouldn't be valid. Anybody could fake it without ever producing the fruit that a real person saved in Christ would have showed back in Paul's day (i.e. being a martry or jailed for confessing Jesus). I conclude: This is an isolated passage that can be used to prove the side of 'saved by grace' but after examining it, it doesn't hold when put into context and compared to the rest of what Jesus taught. Therefore, it is an isolated passage in scripture that people build whole doctrines on to support their man made doctrine.

The other passage of scripture, probably the more reliable one to Paul's, is John 3:16. We all know what it says so I won't bother quoting it (excuse my laziness). The main part to focus on is the word "believe". If believing in Jesus is what we must do in order to be saved, then what does the word "believe" mean in context? There are only two options: 1) someone believes in Jesus; that He was real, He died on the cross and rose again, and that He was generally a nice fella... respectable. 2) we believe in everything that He stood for, which includes His teachings that He spend most of His ministry preaching (including the various miracles).

Option 1) How does God know that we believe in His son? In other words, what must someone do in order for God to say, "Yes this is a believer in my son?" One would say," all those that confess Jesus as Lord are the ones that truly believe Jesus." Is that what you think? What does Jesus say, Luke 6:46," Why do you call me, Lord, Lord, yet you don't do the things that I say." It seems clear that just professing Jesus as Lord isn't what He considers to be someone that believes in Him. Maybe this is only an isolated passage, I can hear you say? Does Jesus say this somewhere else? Great question! He does in, "Matthew 7:21," Not everyone (this word 'everyone' is important, because many will say 'Jesus was referring ONLY to the false prophets'. This word however seems to reply to EVERYONE, not a select group) saying to me Lord, Lord, will enter (in other words, "just because they call Jesus Lord, doesn't mean they are saved) into the Kingdom of Heaven, but only those that DO the Will (which implies a work to be done) of my Father will Enter therein." Pause. There is a new variable to consider. I know people, stay with me, I am wrapping it up soon. What is the Will of Jesus' Father? In John 6:40 Jesus says,"For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life." Oh Dear! Looks like we went full circle! We are back where we started: What does it mean to believe in Jesus? Which brings me to Option 2.

Option 2) Does obeying the person we SAY we believe in show evidence of faith in said person? Imagine you were in a room and someone said there was a bomb about to explode in 10 seconds. How will you determine who believed those words and who didn't? Simple question isn't it... whoever left the room BELIEVED in the words of the one who brought the message, and whoever didn't leave the room, didn't believe the words of said person.

This my friends, is the answer... If we say that we believe in Jesus, then that will naturally cause us to obey everything that Jesus taught us to do, if we don't believe in Jesus, then we will fight tooth in nail NOT to obey His teachings. If belief is what saves us, then works it inseparable from salvation. At least, according to Jesus.
Just to be clear, I do agree that no amount of works can earn us salvation, however, if we use that as justification NOT to obey Jesus' teachings to the best of our ability, then that is where you are living in a 'false grace' doctrine made up by the devil and his children to lead people away from Jesus.

Very briefly I will touch on the topic of the greatest commandments. If those are the only two commands that we have to follow, then doesn't that mean that we still HAVE to follow them (therefore we must try to do works)? It seems that the argument is that these are the only two we have to obey, while we disregard the other teachings, as if Jesus just said these things for no reason? That is what someone has to believe if they say,"we only have to follow these two commandments ",which implies we must not follow the rest of what Jesus taught. I think by following what Jesus taught, IS, the only away to obey these two commandments. After all, the Son of God came to this world to show us how we should live. Doesn't it make sense that He would be the example we should follow if we want to truly love God and our Neighbor?

I will pose a challenge out to both sides. Which side is willing to obey Jesus above all else? Whether you believe it will save you or it won't really doesn't matter.

If you love this person Jesus for dying on the cross for you, and He asked you to pick up your own cross and follow Him... Then are you willing to do that? Are you willing to leave house, fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, children, and give up your own life for the sake of the gospel? I think the answer to this last question is what will determine those who believe in Jesus as our Lord and saviour who died on the cross for us and rose on the third day, from those that don't.

In peace and love

Great post!

I agree with you that the main question here is salvation by grace or works.

You mention the interesting conundrum we encounter when saying that there is no work that can gain our salvation, yet we feel we must say the "sinner's prayer".

I've sometimes thought of it this way..

We are on the path of sin, and come to a crossroads. The broad path leads to the left at an easy slope slowly downward, and a narrow way leads to the right up a rocky path.

At the entrance to the rocky path is the cross of Christ. As we stand there, we count the cost. We realize that we are on a path leading downward, and if we would take the way of Christ it would not be easy. We would need to drop a lot of the things we are carrying, perhaps no longer be enjoying a great time with our group of friends who are headed down the broad road. As we gaze at the cross of Christ we are also being convicted of our sin and we realize that if we decide to take the narrow way we will need to admit our sins, give in to this conviction, and repent of our sins and walk a new way.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

So even though we need to "choose" and "turn" and "forsake", are those works? Yes, those are actual works and deeds but they do not pay for our salvation. We do not just give mental assent or say the memorized words of a prayer - although the choice and change of path may be more drastic for some than for others who may simply have more of an inward battle of choice.

@Lily Miller , you asked me what I believe about being a child of God:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

I believe that as a person comes to the crossroads and chooses to forsake the way of sin, grasping in true faith the promise of forgiveness and mercy made possible by Jesus' death on the cross, there is a supernatural work done in the heart, wiping away sin and changing our focus and desires. It is much more than a firm commitment to do all of Jesus' commands and hope that this will be good enough to gain our salvation, but rather it is something that we cannot produce. We cannot make our hearts clean enough. You talked about God being the one who can see if our hearts are loving or are full of wickedness. The only way that our hearts can be rid of wickedness and sin is if our heart is transformed and we are given a new heart. This does not come by continually doing righteous deeds or by obeying all the commands of Jesus literally. This is what I was getting at when I asked you if a person could literally follow all of Jesus commands and not be saved. (Although of course Jesus also talked of being born again - but I am referring to the commands that you have listed on this forum).

Ezekiel prophesied of this:

Ezekiel 36:25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

After we are given a new heart, this does not mean that we will not struggle in our flesh. We are to continue in obedience, emulate Christ, continue to forsake sin and repent when we do sin.

And it could very well be that God is requiring more of us than we care to admit or think about.

 

[spreadingtheGospel]

The 1 Corinthians 15 passage starts out saying ..."I want to remind you of the Gospel I preached to you....... by this Gospel you are saved....... that Jesus Christ died for our sins, according to the Scripture, that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day, according to the Scriptures....." -- you need to add vs 4 -- according to God's Word that IS the Gospel unto salvation.

Then there is also Romans 10:9-10 "That if you confess with your mouth, Jesus Is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved,"

Jesus Christ paid for our salvation on the cross -- God will see us through the blood of Christ -- just as though we'd never sinned. The only 'rules' to follow would be to 'love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind and our neighbor as ourselves'. Our lives should be lived to glorify God. And we have the great commission in Matthew 28:19-20 Go to all the world and preach the Gospel -making disciples -- baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Hey Sue,

I am not trying to start a debate. I just want to ask you to think about something. (1Peter 4:17) "what happens to those who do not obey the gospel" if we are to obey the gospel. how do we obey, that Jesus died and rose again, if that is all the gospel is.

Also, in (Romans 9-10) Paul is talking to the church in Rome, where it is illegal to be a Christian. So, if you pronounced aloud that Jesus was your Lord, then it was a death sentence. By saying out loud that Jesus was your Lord, you were showing your total faith in God, because you were giving your life. "Greatest love, is laying your life down" (John 15:13).

I hope this finds you well.

 

[Lily Miller]

@Hiswillbedone

I very much enjoyed reading what you wrote out, I couldn't pick out a point that I disagreed with. I feel that you explained the 2 options very clearly, it is either one or the other, and depending on what we choose it shows our real faith. I believe you and I are on the same page.

@Chad4Him

I do believe that me must be born again, but I also believe in order to be born again you have to repent and completely turn around from your sinful ways. You must be able to listen to Jesus, that is what Jesus was saying when he was talking to Nicodemus, he was telling him you are born again by the Spirit, and Jesus says in two places (also in John, John 14:25-26, and John 16:13-14) exactly what the Holy Spirit was sent to earth to do; that is to REMIND US OF WHAT JESUS SPOKE. So to be born again by the Spirit, you must listen to the Spirit as was said above by. So for me, like I said earlier when I replied to your questions, I believe you cannot be "doing what Jesus said and not be saved" because if you're doing what Jesus said, you would have to be born again by the Spirit, but people can always fall away from the Spirit. The only exception to someone claiming they are a Child of God, and still getting saved, would be if they were actually genuinely not aware of what Jesus said. God judges based off of two things, you heart, and what Jesus spoke. So if you're being boastful about your secret works, and you didn't know that Jesus told you not to do that, (Matthew 6:3-4) then God would understand and he would accept that. If you were told and you say "that's not what Jesus meant" or you just don't care that Jesus said that, then God would judge you based off of what you know. Do you see where I am coming from?

I agree with you when you say that we cannot make our hearts clean enough, I believe that is where Jesus' sacrificial death comes into play. I am not saying that our entire salvation is based off of whether or not we know what Jesus said, I am simply just stating that to me, it is pretty clear that His teachings will be something I will be judged by. That is why I am so keen to follow and do what Jesus said. @Hiswillbedone was saying that you have to have some sort of work regardless of whether it is the sinners prayer or doing what Jesus said, we show that we "believe" someone by listening to what they say (as shown in the example with the bomb). If we "believe" Jesus we will OBEY his commands, if we don't we wont. It's as simple as that.

 

[Sue D.]

Our salvation is available to all by what Jesus Christ did on the cross. His purpose on earth was to point all of us to His Father / God. The miracles He performed were to show 'us' that there was something 'bigger out there'. He was getting 'our' attention. And His purpose was ultimately to Die on the cross and rise again on the 3rd day. The cross of Christ bridges the gap created by sin TO God the Father.

However -- that 'gift' Has to be accepted by a person in order to be effective. It's like taking a hungry man and placing food right in front of him - - he will starve Unless he puts the food in his mouth.

A person either accepts or rejects God's gift of salvation made possible through the death, burial and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ.

A person can listen all day and read their Bible from cover to cover and not actually accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior.

I'm not big on the 'sinner's prayer' -- too many people repeat a prayer that someone else is saying for them.-- the 'repeat after me'. Our talking to God / prayer/ is our personal relationship with Him.

A person can be doing all sorts of things that Jesus said to do and not be saved. God wants our hearts -- when He has That, the person will Want to do things for God.

 

[Chad4Him]

@Hiswillbedone

I very much enjoyed reading what you wrote out, I couldn't pick out a point that I disagreed with. I feel that you explained the 2 options very clearly, it is either one or the other, and depending on what we choose it shows our real faith. I believe you and I are on the same page.

@Chad4Him

I do believe that me must be born again, but I also believe in order to be born again you have to repent and completely turn around from your sinful ways. You must be able to listen to Jesus, that is what Jesus was saying when he was talking to Nicodemus, he was telling him you are born again by the Spirit, and Jesus says in two places (also in John, John 14:25-26, and John 16:13-14) exactly what the Holy Spirit was sent to earth to do; that is to REMIND US OF WHAT JESUS SPOKE. So to be born again by the Spirit, you must listen to the Spirit as was said above by. So for me, like I said earlier when I replied to your questions, I believe you cannot be "doing what Jesus said and not be saved" because if you're doing what Jesus said, you would have to be born again by the Spirit, but people can always fall away from the Spirit. The only exception to someone claiming they are a Child of God, and still getting saved, would be if they were actually genuinely not aware of what Jesus said. God judges based off of two things, you heart, and what Jesus spoke. So if you're being boastful about your secret works, and you didn't know that Jesus told you not to do that, (Matthew 6:3-4) then God would understand and he would accept that. If you were told and you say "that's not what Jesus meant" or you just don't care that Jesus said that, then God would judge you based off of what you know. Do you see where I am coming from?

I agree with you when you say that we cannot make our hearts clean enough, I believe that is where Jesus' sacrificial death comes into play. I am not saying that our entire salvation is based off of whether or not we know what Jesus said, I am simply just stating that to me, it is pretty clear that His teachings will be something I will be judged by. That is why I am so keen to follow and do what Jesus said. @Hiswillbedone was saying that you have to have some sort of work regardless of whether it is the sinners prayer or doing what Jesus said, we show that we "believe" someone by listening to what they say (as shown in the example with the bomb). If we "believe" Jesus we will OBEY his commands, if we don't we wont. It's as simple as that.

I appreciate your explanation. And by the way I also agreed with what @Hiswillbedone had to say :smile:- I thought it was explained very well.

What I am trying to discern here is if we are just simply debating technicalities and seeing things from different viewpoints, or if there is something greater at stake in this discussion. I don't think I have completely figured this out yet. What you say, in many ways sounds good yet I know that even seemingly "innocent, technical" differences in belief can have major effects in mindset. (what am I placing my faith in?)

Sometimes when discussing these issues, it is helpful to list major points. I believe that:

1. We are unworthy of receiving salvation and cannot obtain God's favor by any merit or good deeds.

2. We must come to Jesus for cleansing and a new heart, truly repenting of our sins. We bring nothing good to the cross and are not rewarded for anything we have done but rather receive unmerited favor as our sins are forgiven.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

3. AFTER we become a child of God in the manner above, THEN we continue following Jesus' example and instructions. We do not become a child of God by following Jesus' commands (by "His commands" I am meaning those such as "don't work for money" or "call no man father". For purposes of this discussion I am separating those commands from "Ye must be born again.")

Do you agree?

 

[Sue D.]

Hey Sue,

I am not trying to start a debate. I just want to ask you to think about something. (1Peter 4:17) "what happens to those who do not obey the gospel" if we are to obey the gospel. how do we obey, that Jesus died and rose again, if that is all the gospel is.

Also, in (Romans 9-10) Paul is talking to the church in Rome, where it is illegal to be a Christian. So, if you pronounced aloud that Jesus was your Lord, then it was a death sentence. By saying out loud that Jesus was your Lord, you were showing your total faith in God, because you were giving your life. "Greatest love, is laying your life down" (John 15:13).

I hope this finds you well.

Well -- a born-again believer is Supposed to be different from the 'world'. It's Accepting the Gospel unto salvation. We obey by accepting it. The Gospel unto salvation IS simple that a child can understand it -- yet profound. I was sharing the Gospel with a gentleman some time ago and he said it was just too simple. He'd come from a strong works-based salvation. So -- the gift was just too simple for him.

 

[Dovegiven]

Hey Sue,

I am not trying to start a debate. I just want to ask you to think about something. (1Peter 4:17) "what happens to those who do not obey the gospel" if we are to obey the gospel. how do we obey, that Jesus died and rose again, if that is all the gospel is.

Also, in (Romans 9-10) Paul is talking to the church in Rome, where it is illegal to be a Christian. So, if you pronounced aloud that Jesus was your Lord, then it was a death sentence. By saying out loud that Jesus was your Lord, you were showing your total faith in God, because you were giving your life. "Greatest love, is laying your life down" (John 15:13).

I hope this finds you well.

Just a little history. Pilate didn't find fault in Jesus. Rome had a passive tolerance for all sects including the tiny Church of mostly gentiles in Rome a few years later while Paul made it only to Philippi. Paul wanted to visit them in Rome but couldn't until he appealed to Caesar as a Roman citizen to escape the Jews, then made his last journey to be to Rome. Once there he finished out in these interesting ways:

Philippians 4:21-23 (KJV)
21 Salute every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren which are with me greet you.
22 All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar's household.
23 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Which was written by Paul from Rome. He had converted the household of Caesar Nero, though apparently not the emperor himself who went terribly evil in later years, persecuting the Church in and immediately around Rome until he was killed. The next persecutor emperor came 6 reigns later, 23 years later, Domitian, who demanded even the Jews to worship him.

Acts 28:30-31 (KJV)
30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

From Rome the apostle Paul greatly expanded the Church among dispersed Jews and gentiles.

 

[B-A-C]

This seems like an interesting discussion. It basically boils down to salvation by works and salvation by grace?
Correct me if I am wrong, but that seems to be the general spirit of this discussion.

It does seem that way. I often wonder why it has to be one extreme or the other? Why can't it be both?
Works alone can't save us. Works "of the flesh" can't can't us. Works of the "ceremonial" law can't save us.
But on the other and faith alone can't save us. Even the demons believe.

Jas 2:19; You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
Jas 2:20; But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Jas 2:24; You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Calvinists like to quote Eph 2:8-9; but they seem to hate verse 10.

Eph 2:8; For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10; For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

I'm not sure how people got so divided on this Armenianism vs Calvinism over the last few centuries, but if you ever really read the writing
of Arminius and Calvin, neither believed it was only one way or the other. Both believed it was combination of obedience and faith.

John 9:4; "We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.
1 Tim 2:10; but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.
1 Tim 5:10; having a reputation for good works; and if she has brought up children, if she has shown hospitality to strangers, if she has washed the saints' feet, if she has assisted those in distress, and if she has devoted herself to every good work.
1 Tim 6:18; Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,
Tit 1:16; They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.
Tit 3:14; Our people must also learn to engage in good deeds to meet pressing needs, so that they will not be unfruitful.
Heb 10:24; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,

How did some get to the points where works of any kinds seems to be an evil thing?

 

[Chad4Him]

How did some get to the points where works of any kinds seems to be an evil thing?

It seems that we humans have a tendency to over-correct. That is why we need to always make sure to check ourselves and see whether we are lined up with the Word of God. Likely the thinking where works of any kind are looked at as "bad" comes from a reaction to legalism. When we try to steer away from legalism but are not careful to line up with the Word of God, we are in danger of heading to carnality and worldliness.

There could then be a strong reaction to this carnality, worldliness and lack of obedience to Christ's example that could again result in an over-correction towards legalism or putting our faith in our good works.

No matter what "side" we find ourselves on, we need to be open to correction and realignment to the Word.

 

[spreadingtheGospel]

Well -- a born-again believer is Supposed to be different from the 'world'. It's Accepting the Gospel unto salvation. We obey by accepting it. The Gospel unto salvation IS simple that a child can understand it -- yet profound. I was sharing the Gospel with a gentleman some time ago and he said it was just too simple. He'd come from a strong works-based salvation. So -- the gift was just too simple for him.

I agree the gospel is very simple, you read what Jesus says and then do it.

 

[Lily Miller]

@Chad4Him

I am going to take your advice and list out what I believe is important.

1. I think that we cannot just "win" God over by doing good works, we have to actually have faith in him.

2. We must repent of our sins and put ourselves in the captivity of Christ. God will then judge us based off of our thoughts and where our heart is. (What repentance means, is to turn from sin and to really dedicate yourself to amending your life. After you repent you must truly walk away from what you are repenting of, God is not a credit card machine. You cannot simply do what you want and then keep repenting of it, you're not repenting if you don't turn completely away from it.)

3. We continue to follow Jesus' example and instructions by suffering, (1 Peter 2:21 "To this were you called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps") We really need to suffer and do the things that Jesus did, which was dying to himself, getting others to die to themselves, and trying to get others to be living how God wants them to live. So in other words, we have to do what Jesus taught.

4. I believe we are born again when we listen to the Spirit, and in John 14 and John 16 it says that the Spirit will remind us of what Jesus taught. So if we are listening to what Jesus taught, regardless of whether we have read the Bible or not, (Romans 2:29 "No, man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.". Paul is talking about what it really means to be a Jew; Starting at verse 17 and going all the way to 29, but 29 is what hits the nail right on the head.) we will become a Child of God, and be "born again" because we are listening to the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, which reminds us of what Jesus taught.

I agree that it is not based off of our works of righteousness, it's based off of how Sincere we are with what Jesus taught. All of my beliefs I have gotten from reading what Jesus said and did, and the other writings in the New Testament, others are supporting what Jesus said and did.

 

[Chad4Him]

@Chad4Him

I am going to take your advice and list out what I believe is important.

1. I think that we cannot just "win" God over by doing good works, we have to actually have faith in him.

2. We must repent of our sins and put ourselves in the captivity of Christ. God will then judge us based off of our thoughts and where our heart is. (What repentance means, is to turn from sin and to really dedicate yourself to amending your life. After you repent you must truly walk away from what you are repenting of, God is not a credit card machine. You cannot simply do what you want and then keep repenting of it, you're not repenting if you don't turn completely away from it.)

3. We continue to follow Jesus' example and instructions by suffering, (1 Peter 2:21 "To this were you called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps") We really need to suffer and do the things that Jesus did, which was dying to himself, getting others to die to themselves, and trying to get others to be living how God wants them to live. So in other words, we have to do what Jesus taught.

4. I believe we are born again when we listen to the Spirit, and in John 14 and John 16 it says that the Spirit will remind us of what Jesus taught. So if we are listening to what Jesus taught, regardless of whether we have read the Bible or not, (Romans 2:29 "No, man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.". Paul is talking about what it really means to be a Jew; Starting at verse 17 and going all the way to 29, but 29 is what hits the nail right on the head.) we will become a Child of God, and be "born again" because we are listening to the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, which reminds us of what Jesus taught.

I agree that it is not based off of our works of righteousness, it's based off of how Sincere we are with what Jesus taught. All of my beliefs I have gotten from reading what Jesus said and did, and the other writings in the New Testament, others are supporting what Jesus said and did.

Thank you Lily - I want to read over and digest more fully what you are saying here - but one quick question. Regarding these verses below, how exactly are we born of God, receive God's seed in us, have a new heart and spirit, and become a new creation?

1 John 3:9
Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God's seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

Ezekiel 36:26
And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

 

[Lily Miller]

Thank you Lily - I want to read over and digest more fully what you are saying here - but one quick question. Regarding these verses below, how exactly are we born of God, receive God's seed in us, have a new heart and spirit, and become a new creation?

1 John 3:9
Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God's seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

Ezekiel 36:26
And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

1 John 3:9 -- What is God's seed? The Holy Spirit... What is the Job of the Holy Spirit? John 14:16-17 and John 16:13-14, this is the Job of the Holy Spirit.

Ezekiel 36:26 -- He says "A new Spirit" Jesus even told us in two places what that new spirit is... It will remind us of what Jesus taught...

2 Corinthians 5:17 -- You become new because you are born again, by the Spirit, again, the Spirit will remind us of what Jesus taught, we must listen and do what Jesus taught to be "born again".

These are my stand points on these verses, as you can see they all go back to listening to Jesus.

 

[Sue D.]

@Chad4Him

I am going to take your advice and list out what I believe is important.

1. I think that we cannot just "win" God over by doing good works, we have to actually have faith in him.

2. We must repent of our sins and put ourselves in the captivity of Christ. God will then judge us based off of our thoughts and where our heart is. (What repentance means, is to turn from sin and to really dedicate yourself to amending your life. After you repent you must truly walk away from what you are repenting of, God is not a credit card machine. You cannot simply do what you want and then keep repenting of it, you're not repenting if you don't turn completely away from it.)

3. We continue to follow Jesus' example and instructions by suffering, (1 Peter 2:21 "To this were you called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps") We really need to suffer and do the things that Jesus did, which was dying to himself, getting others to die to themselves, and trying to get others to be living how God wants them to live. So in other words, we have to do what Jesus taught.

4. I believe we are born again when we listen to the Spirit, and in John 14 and John 16 it says that the Spirit will remind us of what Jesus taught. So if we are listening to what Jesus taught, regardless of whether we have read the Bible or not, (Romans 2:29 "No, man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.". Paul is talking about what it really means to be a Jew; Starting at verse 17 and going all the way to 29, but 29 is what hits the nail right on the head.) we will become a Child of God, and be "born again" because we are listening to the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, which reminds us of what Jesus taught.

I agree that it is not based off of our works of righteousness, it's based off of how Sincere we are with what Jesus taught. All of my beliefs I have gotten from reading what Jesus said and did, and the other writings in the New Testament, others are supporting what Jesus said and did.

I'd misread part of your #1 comment.

 

[Lily Miller]

I'd misread part of your #1 comment.

I'm sorry? What do you mean?

 

[Sue D.]

Your #1 started out about 'winning' God over by good works -- I first thought you said a person Can 'win' God over by our good works. That we have to have faith in Him. But you said that 'we' Can't just 'win' God over. And, as you commented -- there is No 'winning' God over, because That would be good works on our part. Jesus Christ did everything necessary for 'us' on the cross. We need to put our faith, trust in That. And Then we 'do' as we feel led of God / Holy Spirit To do.

 

[Lily Miller]

Your #1 started out about 'winning' God over by good works -- I first thought you said a person Can 'win' God over by our good works. That we have to have faith in Him. But you said that 'we' Can't just 'win' God over. And, as you commented -- there is No 'winning' God over, because That would be good works on our part. Jesus Christ did everything necessary for 'us' on the cross. We need to put our faith, trust in That. And Then we 'do' as we feel led of God / Holy Spirit To do.

There is nothing wrong with works, you believe that Jesus died and rose again right? That's a work. I am not saying works are bad I just don't believe that you get into heaven by just doing works, you have to have faith and sincerity as well.

The Holy Spirit guides us to what Jesus taught, as I have said so many times on this thread.

 

[Chad4Him]

@Chad4Him

I am going to take your advice and list out what I believe is important.

1. I think that we cannot just "win" God over by doing good works, we have to actually have faith in him.

2. We must repent of our sins and put ourselves in the captivity of Christ. God will then judge us based off of our thoughts and where our heart is. (What repentance means, is to turn from sin and to really dedicate yourself to amending your life. After you repent you must truly walk away from what you are repenting of, God is not a credit card machine. You cannot simply do what you want and then keep repenting of it, you're not repenting if you don't turn completely away from it.)

3. We continue to follow Jesus' example and instructions by suffering, (1 Peter 2:21 "To this were you called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps") We really need to suffer and do the things that Jesus did, which was dying to himself, getting others to die to themselves, and trying to get others to be living how God wants them to live. So in other words, we have to do what Jesus taught.

4. I believe we are born again when we listen to the Spirit, and in John 14 and John 16 it says that the Spirit will remind us of what Jesus taught. So if we are listening to what Jesus taught, regardless of whether we have read the Bible or not, (Romans 2:29 "No, man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.". Paul is talking about what it really means to be a Jew; Starting at verse 17 and going all the way to 29, but 29 is what hits the nail right on the head.) we will become a Child of God, and be "born again" because we are listening to the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, which reminds us of what Jesus taught.

I agree that it is not based off of our works of righteousness, it's based off of how Sincere we are with what Jesus taught. All of my beliefs I have gotten from reading what Jesus said and did, and the other writings in the New Testament, others are supporting what Jesus said and did.

I hope you don't weary of my questions but I am truly trying to understand where you are coming from... I may be misunderstanding you but is this what you are saying?

We choose to repent (forsake our sin) and follow Christ completely. God sees our heart and our obedience in repentance and judges us according to that. As we listen to the Spirit telling us what to do (follow Jesus' commands) this is being born again. We become a Child of God by obeying Jesus' commands and continuing in sincere obedience, whether we have read the Bible or not.