Real repentance vs Fake Repentance

[Enxu]

My thread earlier on was about forgiveness and it has sparked some disagreements on what forgiveness really is about. It has everything to do with repentance and God's word confirms that forgiveness is in fact CONDITIONAL on true repentance.

But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Luke 13:3

Nowhere did the Scriptures ever say forgiveness can be given without repentance and even God does not forgive anyone unless there is true repentance from that sinner. Yet there are religious hypocrites that cheapen forgiveness and want people to dish it out like a commodity. They demand that victims forgive evildoers even when the condition of genuine repentance has not been met. Even God does not forgive those who don't repent so what right do these hypocrites have to demand that victims swallow their pain and forgive even where there is no repentance? Oh yes, we are to love our enemies but that has NOTHING to do with forgiveness. We can treat our enemies with love, by praying for them and not taking vengeance on them and yet never allow them into our lives again. Yet these hypocrites will tell you you haven't forgiven them if you have not allowed them back into your lives to abuse you over and over. Or they will teach you some false humility and say we need to tolerate as much abuse as possible because we ourselves are sinners. These are the same group of hypocrites that cheapen the grace of God into license for evildoing just as the Gospel has written about:

I say this because some ungodly people have wormed their way into your churches, saying that God’s marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives. The condemnation of such people was recorded long ago, for they have denied our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Jude 1:4

When you call out for justice against evil, they call you unforgiving. When you are angry with injustice and evil, they call you Unchristlike. But they are fine with robbing you of the justice you deserve, and then making you feel bad for being angry with and hurt by injustice. Instead of siding with the victims, rebuking the evildoers and defending the oppressed, they side with the evildoers, saying they deserve forgiveness even though they keep on harming the victims and make unreasonable demands on the victims who need all the compassion and support they can get to move on. They claim to be Christians but really they have zero compassion on the suffering innocents by the way they act. They would rather see the victims get victimised over and over in the name of forgiveness then to see evildoers justly rebuked and punished for unrepentant evil. They show by their unloving heart towards victims that they aren't Christians anyway.

Besides, who said it is wrong to be angry with injustice and to want justice against evildoers? Scriptures are filled with passages that show God's people asking for justice and being angry with injustice and evil.

Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money. Acts 8:20

They shouted to the Lord and said, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you judge the people who belong to this world and avenge our blood for what they have done to us?” Revelation 6:10

How long must I wait? When will you punish those who persecute me? Psalm 119:84

May those who gloat in my distress be ashamed and confounded; may those who exalt themselves over me be clothed in shame and reproach. Psalm 35:25

May the accusers of my soul be ashamed and consumed; may those who seek my harm be covered with scorn and disgrace. Psalm 71:13

Let my persecutors be put to shame, but do not let me be put to shame. Let them be terrified, but do not let me be terrified. Bring upon them the day of disaster and shatter them with double destruction. Jeremiah 17:18

 

[Enxu]

I have been smeared, maligned and hated by many of those so called Christian hypocrites, all because I've exposed the evil, lies and hypocrisies behind the beautiful Pharisical masks they wear. But I don't care one bit, if they truly had a Christian heart, they would seek the Lord for correction instead of trying to make me look bad by falsely accusing me of evil they themselves are guilty of. If they truly were Christians, they would have thanked those who dared to point out their errors so they remain on the narrow way to life.

Whoever loves instruction loves knowledge, But he who hates correction is stupid. Proverbs 12:1

So the crucial matter here is to determine what is TRUE repentance. Again, the Gospel has many examples of godly men who had the mindset of a truly repentant sinner:

Big sign of true repentance: Willingness to accept consequences for doing evil

1) Job was willing to suffer for doing evil

"If my heart has been seduced by a woman, or if I have lusted for my neighbor's wife, then let my wife belong to another man; let other men sleep with her. Job 31:9-10

2) King David suffered the loss of his child and trouble within his own household even after repenting. He ACCEPTED those bad consequences.

Why, then, have you despised the word of the LORD and done this horrible deed? For you have murdered Uriah the Hittite with the sword of the Ammonites and stolen his wife. From this time on, your family will live by the sword because you have despised me by taking Uriah’s wife to be your own. “This is what the LORD says: Because of what you have done, I will cause your own household to rebel against you. I will give your wives to another man before your very eyes, and he will go to bed with them in public view. You did it secretly, but I will make this happen to you openly in the sight of all Israel.” Then David confessed to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Nathan replied, “Yes, but the LORD has forgiven you, and you won’t die for this sin. Nevertheless, because you have shown utter contempt for the word of the LORD by doing this, your child will die.” 2 Samuel 12:9-14

If you are a Christian and are suffering for doing evil you should rejoice because God disciplines His child but lets the evildoers perish in their evil!

Endure suffering as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you do not experience discipline like everyone else, then you are illegitimate children and not true sons Hebrew 12:7-8

The Gospel also has one striking example of fake Christians who only did fake repentance.

Sign 1 of fake repentance: Only caring about escaping consequences for sin

“Pray to the Lord for me,” Simon exclaimed, “that these terrible things you’ve said won’t happen to me!” Acts 8:24

Simon Magus, a magician who followed Philip around is a prime example of a fake believer who only pretended to repent SO AS TO ESCAPE CONSEQUENCES. Apostle Peter asked him to repent for his evil intentions to buy God's gift with money (Acts 8:22), instead of saying he will repent, he asks Peter to pray to the Lord so he can escape from retribution for his evil. So what happened to Simon Magus the magician? He ultimately revealed himself to be a fake Christian who became the starter of Christian heresy.

It is therefore only logical to conclude that those hypocrites who want an easy way out of their sins by being forgiven without consequences have the same kind of fake repentance that Simon Magus the magician did. They will reveal the true nature of their faith sooner or later no matter how religious and believing they appear.

Sign 2 of fake repentance: Not showing by the way they live that they've changed

But when he saw many Pharisees and Sadducees coming to watch him baptize, he denounced them. “You brood of snakes!” he exclaimed. “Who warned you to flee the coming wrath? Prove by the way you live that you have repented of your sins and turned to God. Matthew 3:7-8

Let those who have ears to hear hear the truth and beware.

 

[Hekuran]

God has freely offered forgiveness to everyone, and he has borne the burden of our sins on the cross. Jesus even prayed, 'forgive them Father, they don't know what they are doing'.

Not everyone is willing to receive God's forgiveness or to repent, and then they are responsible for their own destiny. The wages of sin are death.

Jesus taught his disciples to pray: Forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us.

 

[Trevor]

Talk Jesus is a debating site, the people on it don't know each other, we have no understanding of the pressures one another face each day. To even think we understand enough to judge each other is ludicrous. If we don't have the strength to debate without taking it personally when we meet disagreement, we should question whether we should be debating at all. I'd like to thank all those I've locked horns with on Talk Jesus, but I never joined to hurt anybody, but I obviously have, so I am going to bow out now, but I leave my blessings to all of you.

 

[Enxu]

God has freely offered forgiveness to everyone, and he has borne the burden of our sins on the cross. Jesus even prayed, 'forgive them Father, they don't know what they are doing'.

Not everyone is willing to receive God's forgiveness or to repent, and then they are responsible for their own destiny. The wages of sin are death.

Jesus taught his disciples to pray: Forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us.

You yourself quoted that Jesus forgave them because “they don’t know what they are doing”. Ignorance is indeed forgiven but you don’t see Jesus ever say “forgive the Pharisees also” do you? So tell me, why does Jesus not say that? God’s forgiveness is conditional on repentance just like Jesus said. The Pharisees never repented of trying to put Jesus on the cross and they did it with full knowledge that they are doing evil. So why should forgiveness be extended to them? Clearly Jesus did not extend any forgiveness to those hypocrites but instead condemned them.

If one has not truly repented there is no forgiveness from God. Simon Magus is a prime example of that. He believed the Gospel at one point and yet turned out to be a heretic. Do you not read Acts about his fake conversion?

As for us who are merely God’s followers, not taking vengeance on our enemies, praying for those who persecute us, doing good to our enemies is already forgiveness. This is the kind of forgiveness taught by the Gospel.

But if evildoers continue to do harm to us even after our goodwill and forgiveness, it is only right that we cry out to God for justice. The Scriptures is FILLED with people calling out for justice against evildoers. David cried out for justice, so did Jeremiah against his persecutors. But the religious hypocrites falsely label this as unforgiveness. How ludicrous. They rob people of justice in the name of forgiveness and stand with the evildoers rather than rebuke them so they will stop harming more people. Instead they add wound to wound on the victims and reproach them for standing up for themselves. Woe to them.

 

[Hekuran]

God's grace is such that he offers forgiveness in advance of repentance. We should do the same.

Reconciliation and restoration can't happen without repentance -- but that is dependent on the other party.

I don't see anything in the Bible that teaches forgiveness is conditional. It's part of entrusting all that we are to God.

 

[Enxu]

God's grace is such that he offers forgiveness in advance of repentance. We should do the same.

Reconciliation and restoration can't happen without repentance -- but that is dependent on the other party.

I don't see anything in the Bible that teaches forgiveness is conditional. It's part of entrusting all that we are to God.

But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Luke 13:3

Where in the above verse does it show that God gives forgiveness BEFORE repentance. I don’t see it. It’s clear as day that repentance is needed before forgiveness and Acts says the same thing.

Now repent of your sins and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped away. Acts 3:19

You are deceived by false doctrines. Forgiveness from sin is after repentance. Are you going to ignore this even if the Gospel makes it blatantly clear?

 

[Hekuran]

God makes the open offer of forgiveness, made possible by Jesus' sacrifice. He has made the first move. It is up to each individual to choose whether to recieve or to reject this grace. So yes, as in the passages from Luke and Acts you've quoted, the consequence of refusing to repent is condemnation; but God's offer of forgiveness is there from the beginning, not conditional on our response.

 

[Enxu]

God makes the open offer of forgiveness, made possible by Jesus' sacrifice. He has made the first move. It is up to each individual to choose whether to recieve or to reject this grace. So yes, as in the passages from Luke and Acts you've quoted, the consequence of refusing to repent is condemnation; but God's offer of forgiveness is there from the beginning, not conditional on our response.

Be careful how you put it out, some may become misguided and think I can have my sins wiped away even without repenting. I’m sure there is such a false doctrine floating around in Christendom and dooming the masses who don’t know any better. The church barely knows what repentance even looks like. I picked the example of fake Christian Simon Magus for a specific reason, many have the same kind of “repentance” he does. It’s all about escaping punishment and that is not the kind of repentant attitude demonstrated by God’s people in the Scriptures. Study it for your own sakes, it can mean life or death.

 

[Hekuran]

Agree with that. We need to first search our own hearts and repent of our sins, and second urge others to submit to God in repentance.

 

[Andyindauk]

Hi Enxu,

Just reading through your threads and rightly or wrongly, I get the impression that these people that have upset and wronged you, you want to see burn in Hell.

The Bible is quite clear on this, that if anybody repents of their sins and accepts forgiveness through Jesus Christ, then his / her sins will be completely forgiven; their sins and all of their sins. To victims' families who see prisoners banged up for life or on death row, who afterwards repent and 'find Jesus', this is a total anathema, but it's just the way it is. God's forgiveness doesn't stop the moment you believe, He covers all our sins, past, present and future. One example that springs to mind is the murder by Marvin Gay snr of his son who was a very successful pop star of the 60s and 70s, Marvin Gay jnr. The two had a stormy relationship with profound disagreements on jnr's lifestyle. Snr was a Pentecostal minister and presumably a believer. I don't know if he ever repented of his son's murder, but that's not the point. Once we truly believe and become a disciple of Jesus our names are written in thick black marker pen in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Another example is Rev Julie Nicholson who refused to forgive suicide bombers who blew up her daughter. Priest 'can't forgive' 7/7 bombers
She later resigned from the church which was a double tragedy, all because she didn't have the heart to forgive her enemies. I think we can all sympathise and understand why but these Islamic terrorists had achieved a secondary victory by her resignation.

I still maintain, counter intuitively as it might sound that we should always forgive those who wrong us, whether or not they repent or apologise. There's no mention of repentance as a condition in Jesus's advice on this in His sermon on the mount, in fact He goes further and tells us to offer the thief your other shirt. The problem with Jesus's teaching is that it's quite easy to understand but almost impossible to follow; so that's why you need the Holy Spirit to help you in situations such as this.

So does this mean that these lil rodents get off scott free? Absolutely not! Romans 12:19. We will all have to give an account for our deeds and misdeeds, you included if you ignore Jesus's advice. To quote the TV evangelists; 'Let go and let God.'

Read some more on TJ, Beetow's sermons About Love God bless you sister, I really really hope you find peace.

 

[Enxu]

Hi Enxu,

Just reading through your threads and rightly or wrongly, I get the impression that these people that have upset and wronged you, you want to see burn in Hell.

The Bible is quite clear on this, that if anybody repents of their sins and accepts forgiveness through Jesus Christ, then his / her sins will be completely forgiven; their sins and all of their sins. To victims' families who see prisoners banged up for life or on death row, who afterwards repent and 'find Jesus', this is a total anathema, but it's just the way it is. God's forgiveness doesn't stop the moment you believe, He covers all our sins, past, present and future. One example that springs to mind is the murder by Marvin Gay snr of his son who was a very successful pop star of the 60s and 70s, Marvin Gay jnr. The two had a stormy relationship with profound disagreements on jnr's lifestyle. Snr was a Pentecostal minister and presumably a believer. I don't know if he ever repented of his son's murder, but that's not the point. Once we truly believe and become a disciple of Jesus our names are written in thick black marker pen in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Another example is Rev Julie Nicholson who refused to forgive suicide bombers who blew up her daughter. Priest 'can't forgive' 7/7 bombers
She later resigned from the church which was a double tragedy, all because she didn't have the heart to forgive her enemies. I think we can all sympathise and understand why but these Islamic terrorists had achieved a secondary victory by her resignation.

I still maintain, counter intuitively as it might sound that we should always forgive those who wrong us, whether or not they repent or apologise. There's no mention of repentance as a condition in Jesus's advice on this in His sermon on the mount, in fact He goes further and tells us to offer the thief your other shirt. The problem with Jesus's teaching is that it's quite easy to understand but almost impossible to follow; so that's why you need the Holy Spirit to help you in situations such as this.

So does this mean that these lil rodents get off scott free? Absolutely not! Romans 12:19. We will all have to give an account for our deeds and misdeeds, you included if you ignore Jesus's advice. To quote the TV evangelists; 'Let go and let God.'

Read some more on TJ, Beetow's sermons About Love God bless you sister, I really really hope you find peace.

I’ve heard enough sermons on the need to forgive. I did pray for those who ill-treated me just like the sermon on the mount instructed, in fact I asked God to forgive them in my silent prayers. But you people have no idea what struggle it is to forgive again and again and having the feeling that the world hates you simply because you are a Christian. Like I said to those who are quick to judge me as unforgiving because I speak harshly, do you really know my heart more than God does?

But I do cry out for justice just like the souls in the Scriptures did and there is NOTHING WRONG with that.

They shouted to the Lord and said, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you judge the people who belong to this world and avenge our blood for what they have done to us?” Revelation 6:10

How long must I wait? When will you punish those who persecute me? Psalm 119:84

May those who gloat in my distress be ashamed and confounded; may those who exalt themselves over me be clothed in shame and reproach. Psalm 35:25

May the accusers of my soul be ashamed and consumed; may those who seek my harm be covered with scorn and disgrace. Psalm 71:13

Let my persecutors be put to shame, but do not let me be put to shame. Let them be terrified, but do not let me be terrified. Bring upon them the day of disaster and shatter them with double destruction. Jeremiah 17:18

Scriptures even record crying out for justice, there is NOTHING unforgiving about that. So stop judging me falsely based on your false notions of forgiveness.

And for that matter, what angers me is not the need for forgiveness, it’s the unloving attitude of hypocrites who demand forgiveness from victims at their expense. They ought to be rebuking the evildoers to stop their evildoing rather than reproach victims for having feelings of anger. They ought to be supportive of victims and speak gently to them. But they choose to give the evildoers an easy time while making things worse for victims. They even claim that being angry with injustice is wrong when the Scriptures are FILLED with God’s people being angry with injustice. They are not Christians since they have no compassion on the suffering.