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Revelation: The foundation of human thought

xDICEx

Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2005
Messages
293
In the early 60’s, as a teenager in high school, a science teacher was dutifully covering his curriculum guidelines for the day. I do not remember his name, but it was not a good day for him; I am sure. As “natural selection” and “survival of the fittest” took up their positions on the black board underneath “mutations” and “natural variations” it began to dawn on me: that, if such an assertion as that which was being taught were true, then not only were all the moral exhortations I was given as a child wrong and non-authoritative, but the restraint, guilt, and punishment of the last 15 years or so would also be painfully arbitrary.

Don’t misunderstand me here; I was not about to throw off my certainty of right and wrong. That was too clearly ingrained in me, having been highly polished off by my grandmother who reared me. With the Bible in one hand and a switch in the other, she taught me the scriptures from the seat up. I provided her with ample opportunity, and faithful as she was, she redeemed the time for the days were evil. She was a very good driver when it came to driving folly out of the heart of the child. No, my friend, good-n-evil and right-n-wrong were not brought into doubt that day. What settled in my brain was the stark contrast between: what I knew to be true, and the ludicrous moral implications of the assertions my teacher was claiming as scientific fact.

His day turned bad when the student in the back left corner of the room attempted to decent from his indoctrination and point toward the moral question. Initially rebuffed, the student refused to be so arbitrarily and officiously denied his point. Rising to his feet, the student offered the teacher a demonstration he could not fail to grasp. Threatening to hoist the desk, approach the board, and take his natural position “the fittest” in place of diminished teacher, the student asked what rational non-arbitrary reason could the teacher plead in his self protection. The silence was not the teacher grasping the point. It turned out: the weasel was planning his escape. Misreading my theatrics, he ran off to the principal’s office to get help.

Well, he had no rational, non-arbitrary, defense; and he had no physical defense either. So he did the natural thing. He should have done the reasonable thing, and given an answer. But then I can reasonably say that, having --as I do-- revelation as my absolute. Any “should” is not a meaningful word in “nature” as evolution sees it. Even this: that the fit “should” survive: is meaningless. I guess “run” is the best one can do. Lie, hide, and cheat are OK too, as is all else. As a Christian, or even as then (an unsaved Bible raised kid), I can and did use these “should” words with the authority God gave every man. He has put his laws into all men, writing them on their hearts (understandings), so that they show this always in their moral excuses of themselves and condemnations of others. That teacher tried to condemn me to the principal. But there could be no ethical reason for him to do so within his belief system. God’s laws were on his heart too, even though he was rigorously trying to deny them. All men know they will be judged and they know the absolute law by which they will be; they judge and acquit each other all the time. With the principal, a much more intelligent man, we were able to iron all these things out, and I went back to class the next day.

So this brings me to my point in this note: Knowledge in general and moral knowing in particular must be founded on an absolute authority. Without an absolute infallible verbal revelation from man’s creator, man by reason and logic can not overcome the obstacles of irrationality, radical skepticism, and non-arbitrariness in all his thinking. Man can not be an authority unto himself; at least not rationally as his own reason and logic would demand with consistency, non-contradiction, and non-arbitrariness. Natural men try all the time, but they are inconsistent and show forth the fact, that they are created in God’s image: his logic and laws written on their hearts. They hold to rights and wrongs, they know some things, and they think. They are all a “self”: where do you think that comes from?

In the beginning was the LOGOS, and the LOGOS was with God, and the LOGOS was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John knew exactly what man was as he set out to write his gospel, so that they might believe on his name, and that believing they might have eternal life.
 
So this brings me to my point in this note: Knowledge in general and moral knowing in particular must be founded on an absolute authority. Without an absolute infallible verbal revelation from man’s creator, man by reason and logic can not overcome the obstacles of irrationality, radical skepticism, and non-arbitrariness in all his thinking. Man can not be an authority unto himself; at least not rationally as his own reason and logic would demand with consistency, non-contradiction, and non-arbitrariness. Natural men try all the time, but they are inconsistent and show forth the fact, that they are created in God’s image: his logic and laws written on their hearts. They hold to rights and wrongs, they know some things, and they think. They are all a “self”: where do you think that comes from?

Intriguing post and I really liked this particular paragraph. Sorry it took me so long to get around to reading it!
 
Thanks Deisponsa...Let me point you to an old post I recently revived from the back-pages. It is in the "Bible Study Hall" section. It is called "Truth, the Measure of truth, and the Metrologist". I brought it up forward because of some of the recent discussions in Chat; it seems there is a need presently for "answers" and how to and not to answer fools according to their folly is a skill that hard to learn, but very important. And the Bible has been dismissed at times where it not to have been. And we do not want to miss any opportunities that the LORD may bring our ways. I am hoping that some clarifying comments and discussion might bring about an understandable and more unified thoughtful approach.
 
On A Good Foundation

Man can not be an authority unto himself; at least not rationally as his own reason and logic would demand with consistency, non-contradiction, and non-arbitrariness. Natural men try all the time, but they are inconsistent and show forth the fact, that they are created in God’s image: his logic and laws written on their hearts. They hold to rights and wrongs, they know some things, and they think. They are all a “self”: where do you think that comes from?

Good Morning, it is true what the Bible says to us. Everyone in this world feels an emptiness that they are trying to fill. The truth is written in the hearts of all men, yet many reject that truth. A women I know understands a universal god head, a spirit with which we are all apart of. She has been studying and attending Science of the Mind. We are all god, we are all apart of god. Within this teaching we have "authority unto" ourselves. "We" with the right thoughts and the right prayer have the ability to control our destiney.

But this is really no different than the evolutionists belief that we are all apart of this great cosmic mishap. And as I said to her this is the same lie that Satan used in the beginning with Eve. That if you eat of this tree you will be like God... Satan does not care which religion we follow or if we follow religion at all. His desire is to destroy the Word of God, and to turn mankind as far away from the truth as he can.

There has been no greater deception for man than that of Evolution, it truly has opened the door for every form of deception. Without that firm foundation we are only standing in sinking sand.

Reason, they reason with that of foolish men. Good post.
 
So this brings me to my point in this note: Knowledge in general and moral knowing in particular must be founded on an absolute authority. Without an absolute infallible verbal revelation from man’s creator, man by reason and logic can not overcome the obstacles of irrationality, radical skepticism, and non-arbitrariness in all his thinking. Man can not be an authority unto himself; at least not rationally as his own reason and logic would demand with consistency, non-contradiction, and non-arbitrariness. Natural men try all the time, but they are inconsistent and show forth the fact, that they are created in God’s image: his logic and laws written on their hearts. They hold to rights and wrongs, they know some things, and they think. They are all a “self”: where do you think that comes from?

In the beginning was the LOGOS, and the LOGOS was with God, and the LOGOS was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John knew exactly what man was as he set out to write his gospel, so that they might believe on his name, and that believing they might have eternal life.

It worries me that you believe that knowledge requries a verbal revelation. That is either a literal theophany or christophany. I have had neither of those events. I have had a revelation from Christ, but nothing that was verbal. By your definition I have no knowledge of morality or God. Unless you are theonomic and by verbal revelation you actually mean the Bible.

By Natural men do you mean people who are not Christian? Aren't we all natural beings? We are born, die and have natural impulses through our lives so I'm wondering what it is you mean.

Christianity is and must be logical you are right. And that means being able to logically engage, discuss, and critique not only the world around us, but also ourselves.
 
It worries me that you believe that knowledge requries a verbal revelation. That is either a literal theophany or christophany. I have had neither of those events. I have had a revelation from Christ, but nothing that was verbal. By your definition I have no knowledge of morality or God. Unless you are theonomic and by verbal revelation you actually mean the Bible.
Hello Iceman, I will try to clarify. Your last statement beginning with "Unless" leads me to surmise: that, if I meet these conditions that follow, then you would not be worried about knowledge requiring verbal revelation, nor that you have not had any literal (verbal) appearances of God or Christ. I do not know exactly what a "theonomic" is, but I do believe God's word made all the laws of the universe, or at the very least the ubiquitous lawful workings of it, AND I do mean verbal revelation is the Bible, as it is the inerrant inspired product of verbal revelation. One thing I can't understand, though, is what a revelation of Christ that is not verbal would be: even when John was about to write what the 7 thunders said in Revelations and He was told not to, what he had witnessed could have been put into words. If you will look again at my "definition" (I did make some assertions of what man is) of man, I think you will see that the opposite is true: I show clearly that all men have "knowledge of morality and of God". That is one of my main points, whether men acknowledge it or hold it down in unrighteousness, they still have it.
By Natural men do you mean people who are not Christian? Aren't we all natural beings? We are born, die and have natural impulses through our lives so I'm wondering what it is you mean.
Good clarifying question Ice. By "natural men" I meant expressly men like my teacher and others who deny the testimony of the Bible, but your point is well taken: we all have this nature, and as Christians we are to live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. And we are not to believe the lie. Faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God. All men(generic mankind) have a conception of self, they think(reflect verbal ideas), use language/logic, and have moral judgements about things. They all do this. Some believe lies, some believe the truth, and most mix the two.
Christianity is and must be logical you are right. And that means being able to logically engage, discuss, and critique not only the world around us, but also ourselves.
Amen, Christianity must be rational and unmixed with error(lie) and then we will do better at both critiques.
 
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Don’t misunderstand me here; I was not about to throw off my certainty of right and wrong. That was too clearly ingrained in me, having been highly polished off by my grandmother who reared me. With the Bible in one hand and a switch in the other, she taught me the scriptures from the seat up. I provided her with ample opportunity, and faithful as she was, ........................................................

John knew exactly what man was as he set out to write his gospel, so that they might believe on his name, and that believing they might have eternal life.

Your grandmother helped you and you know the scriptures but as the child and the future student how do you listen to the promptings of the Holy Spirit in any or all of the above situations?

Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
 
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Ship, nice to hear from you. In the above situation and those that followed through my highschool years, I was not born again. "It is hard for thee to kick against the goads," what God said to Paul in Acts, is how the Holy Spirit was prompting me. It was later after graduating that the Holy Spirit used a passage of scripture, (He who seeks to save his life, shall loose it; and he who looses his life for my sake, shall find it.) to make me realise I could not save my life, and that I was justly under the penilty of death. Bringing other scriptures to my mind, He showed me that not only did I need a sufficiant and equitable substute, but also one able and willing to bring a dead man to new life. The Bible truthes can be clearly observed in scripture, (the light shines in the darness...those words are perspicuous) by any man; but the believing of them unto salvation is a work of the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

From 04/02/1969 until today only the Holy Spirit on the basis of the new covenant in His blood can make those words living in my heart so that faith works, as James says. In my flesh dwelleth no good thing, and the mind set upon the flesh is death. The substance of the death, burial, resurrection, and intersession at God's right hand of my advocate with the Father is uniquely communicated to me by the Holy Spirit sent to indwell regenerate believers as the earnest of the new covenant. Thank you for prompting a clarification. DGB
 
Hey Dice, God bless You for taking the time personally in your experience to share the Holy Spirits part intimately motivating you in your life with us. A blessing for all who will read your post and a praise of thanksgiving to the Lord from me!
 
Hello Iceman, I will try to clarify. Your last statement beginning with "Unless" leads me to surmise: that, if I meet these conditions that follow, then you would not be worried about knowledge requiring verbal revelation, nor that you have not had any literal (verbal) appearances of God or Christ. I do not know exactly what a "theonomic" is, but I do believe God's word made all the laws of the universe, or at the very least the ubiquitous lawful workings of it, AND I do mean verbal revelation is the Bible, as it is the inerrant inspired product of verbal revelation. One thing I can't understand, though, is what a revelation of Christ that is not verbal would be: even when John was about to write what the 7 thunders said in Revelations and He was told not to, what he had witnessed could have been put into words. If you will look again at my "definition" (I did make some assertions of what man is) of man, I think you will see that the opposite is true: I show clearly that all men have "knowledge of morality and of God". That is one of my main points, whether men acknowledge it or hold it down in unrighteousness, they still have it.

Theonomic is basically that all morality comes from the Bible. The concern stems from the definition of the world Revelation. It means something that is revealed beyond your own ability to reveal it. So yes the Scripture is a form of Revelation...another is like Paul's revelation which in Galatians he describes as how he received the Gospel. What I mean by a non-verbal Revelation can probably be best described in analogy. In prayer, it is at times the case that we encounter the Spirit. It is tangible, motivating, revealing, but I am yet to meet anyone to who the Spirit was specifical verbal or audible. Often some will have visions, or realisations, and they are no less of a Revelation.
 
The Bible is a witness to revelation.

Rudolf Bultmann (a very good neo-orthodox theologian) said that we can't make any sense out of the Bible, if we read it as modern people, when the Bible is talking about a 3-story universe, we cant use electricty,telecomunications, etc, and believe in a world filled with angels and demons and miracles.

Rather the point of the Bible is not about what happened in history, but to hear the word of God on vertical axis as he said "senkrecht von oben" directly from above, making in our souls that moment of decision or "entscheidung" and then which we enter into a life of faith.

God Bless!
 
The Bible is a witness to revelation.
azuredepths: I cannot accept this statement, for the Bible is not a witness to revelation. It is revelation; God has breathed its very words and letters onto vellum, parchment, and paper, (2Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:) It is all scripture that this text makes its assertions of. And so this text clearly reveals (not witnessing to it, but proposing it to us directly in words) that the Bible is inspired by God, who cannot lie (Titus 1:2). This is what one must believe; it is the truth. If it were only a witness to the truth, then the proposition the verse contains would have no objective meaning at all, and anyone's encounter with it would become his "truth" with a small "t" (and to each his own). Were this the case, logic and the law of contradiction would disappear, and in the resulting irrationality, there would be nothing for any one at all to say about anything. I will try to say more later, and comment on the rest of your response. But this should at least show you where I am coming from.
 
Rudolf Bultmann (a very good neo-orthodox theologian) said that we can't make any sense out of the Bible, if we read it as modern people, when the Bible is talking about a 3-story universe, we cant use electricty,telecomunications, etc, and believe in a world filled with angels and demons and miracles.
Ironically, If God is not able to make sense by His words to men created in His image whose understandings He created for that very purpose, then what reason could Rudolf ever give for the hope his words should ever make any sense, after all he writes many books. The fact that I can understand Bultmann's assertions and arbitrary opinions, confirms the literal truth: that Men, who knowing God and the judgement of God, hold the truth down with their arbitrary and inconsistent assertions that are meaningless and empty (Rom.1:18-32). Moreover, the fact that Rudolf tries to reason and speak, being inconsistent with his philosophy of revelation, shows me that he knows the truth in his heart. As a Biblical Christian, I can not follow Bultmann in his refusal to glorify God in his reasoning and speculations. And I can not pick and choose among the scriptures what strikes my fancy. Scriptures judge me, I do not judge them.
Rather the point of the Bible is not about what happened in history, but to hear the word of God on vertical axis as he said "senkrecht von oben" directly from above, making in our souls that moment of decision or "entscheidung" and then which we enter into a life of faith.
It might seem appropriate for an anti-rationalist to seek a self validation in some intuitive hallucination or ecstatic experience, but without a propositional objective revelation in words that are not from men but that are of God, I have to ask the following question. How could anyone tell if it were of God or devils, truth or lie? Now as to "faith", true faith is rooted in the history of the real death, burial, and resurrection of Christ the lamb of God prophesied from the foundation of the earth. Taking the Bible as absolute truth in all its parts, not myth nor witness, but historical and clear truth I have a reason sufficient for enemies, and dead sinners to be changed into new creations by the power of God and not of men. It is not a leap in the dark. It is rational and makes sense of the world as it is. The irrational embrace of a content-less encounter is not faith in the Biblical sense. It is anti-intellectualism of the same kind as idolatry. The words of Jude are relevant here Q.V. Jude 1:11-13 as also 2 Pet. 2:9-22.

May we all head the admonition of 1 John 5: 20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. 21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
 
What I mean by a non-verbal Revelation can probably be best described in analogy. In prayer, it is at times the case that we encounter the Spirit. It is tangible, motivating, revealing, but I am yet to meet anyone to who the Spirit was specifical verbal or audible. Often some will have visions, or realisations, and they are no less of a Revelation.
Thank you Iceman; I think I can see what you are saying. By verbal revelation all I intended to propose was: that the ideas, truths, notions, and propositions, which the Bible was designed by God to convey to man, is in the clear words written on its pages. I do not mean an auditory hallucination or experience...so we can distinguish between auditory and verbal. By verbal I simply meant the language description of grammatical/syntactical/logical words as they appear in the written text, scripture. As in your analogy, the non-auditory promptings of the Holy Spirit in prayer (at times) is never-the-less propositional, verbal, as: that it can be put into words. And this in fact is required of the spiritual man: for he has to judge if this is truly the Holy Spirit by measuring it with the written word. I think the best description of the Holy spirits promptings are given in 1 Cor.2:10-15 where I believe Paul has "scripture" in mind where he says "spiritual things" since "words" is the main point of his assertion there:"10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." It is a believers job to try the spirits:1 John 4:1 "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." Therefor, these promptings like all things else must be put into words to be able to compare them with the scripture. Thanks again Iceman; I think this makes things a bit clearer.
 
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