Rubbish Churches

[Andyindauk]

I've read a number of posts, mostly from a number of brothers 'n sisters across the pond, decrying all churches in America and so justifying their absence. Are all churches in the USA so rubbish that they're not worth getting up for on a Sunday morning? Do any American TJ'ers have a positive experience in a church?

Let's have a look at what the Bible says about rubbish churches.

Now Peter and John went up together to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour. Acts 3:1 NKJV.

Peter and John were regular worshippers at the Temple, they even went to the midweek prayer meeting. Remember, in this Temple, they didn't even believe in Jesus, and yet Peter and John were drawn to it. Why? What was it about the Temple that these two felt like they had to go?

There's 4 motives to going to church, corporate worship, learning, giving and fellowship. Which of these 4 boxes did the Temple tick for these two disciples?

Read the rest of the chapter and you'll see that the Holy Spirit prompts them to give a miraculous healing to a man in his forties, born with deformed feet, unable to walk. This miracle then forms the backdrop to Peter's second sermon.

Peter's sermon goes down really well with the gathered audience, and thousands came to know Jesus as a result of it Acts 4:4. Had Peter and John stayed away, that miracle, Peter's sermon and all those conversions wouldn't have happened. However you can read in the rest of chapter 4 that Peter's sermon didn't go down so well with the Temple hierarchy who took these events as a challenge to their authority and so the three of them spent the night in the cells.

Revelation 3:1-6 Sardis, the dead church. The only good thing about that church is the few who are not like the rest of them. To the general body of the members, Jesus tells them to hold fast and repent but to the few pleasing members Jesus doesn't say quit and stay at home, rather He tells them: 'You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.' Revelation 3:4‭-5 NKJV

And then there's the writer of the Hebrews instruction: And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. Hebrews 10:24‭-25 NKJV. TJ is a forum, it's not a church, you're pretty limited in here to stir up love and good works which is what identifies the Church.

In 1 Corinthians 5:6-8 Paul tells a church with serious problems - Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

So instead of dismissing churches as being not good enough for you, wouldn't it be better to join it and be that unleavened bread of sincerity and truth?

May God bless you for your faithfulness and perseverance.

 

[Waggles]

So instead of dismissing churches as being not good enough for you, wouldn't it be better to join it and be that unleavened bread of sincerity and truth?

No
being with the wrong people corrupts faith and doctrine -
Rev 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues;"
We are to separate ourselves and to be holy - touch not the unclean thing.
Pray to Jesus for his direction and his guidance to what pleases the God of our salvation.
I did and Jesus sent people to me and they witnessed to me.
I am now amongst people who are good for upholding and living sound doctrine (they take all of the word of God seriously).
And it shows in our testimonies and our blessings.
James 1:21 Therefore put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

 

[Waggles]

Proverbs 13:20 Whoever walks with the wise becomes wise, but the companion of fools will suffer harm.

1Cor 15:33 Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals.”

 

[B-A-C]

I've read a number of posts, mostly from a number of brothers 'n sisters across the pond, decrying all churches in America and so justifying their absence. Are all churches in the USA so rubbish that they're not worth getting up for on a Sunday morning?

I live here in the US, and I've read many of the same messages. It is sad to see people insult the body of Christ this way.

There are certainly some good churches here. I am a member of one such church right now. I consider most of the churches I have been part of to be good churches.

But I have to admit, there are a lot of bad churches here also, I would even say the majority so it seems.

It's funny, if someone eats a bad hamburger or a bad pizza, do they quit eating pizza and hamburgers? No, they may go somewhere else to get them, but they keep coming back for more.
However if a church does something wrong, or offends you in any way... that's it. Game over, I'm never going back to church ever again.... "they hurt my little feelings".

You can find a good church if you really want to. They haven't all disappeared, at least not yet.

A friend of mine, years ago ( he has passed away now ) wanted to quit drinking. But he would never quit going to bars and hanging around his drinking buddies. He died of liver disease.
Some keep going to same churches, and same denominations that support things like gay clergy, homosexual marriage, and saying there are multiple ways to God.... then they complain about the church and
wonder why nothing ever changes.

Maybe it's time for a change of scenery.

 

[B-A-C]

In Revelation 2 and 3, there are letters to seven churches. I would say I've been in most of these churches at some point in my life.
Not the literal churches located in Asia/Turkey, but churches just like them with the same problems and symptoms.

Out of seven churches, there were only 2 Jesus didn't have something against. He told the other five churches, "repent".
Go back to doing the things you used to do, believing the things you used to believe,,, or else. Or else I ( Jesus ) will make war with you.

Only 2 out of 7. Not very good odds, less than 1/3rd. I don't know if anyone other than God knows which churches will make it, and which won't ( some are obviously lost )
But I do think the odds are pretty close to reality here in the US. I sometimes wonder if even a third of churches will make it.

Rev 2:5; Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Rev 2:16; Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Rev 2:22; Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Rev 3:3; 'So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.
Rev 3:16 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.

Unfortunately, for some churches....

Rev 2:21; 'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.

 

[Curtis]

The Church is alive and well all over the entire earth. The body of believers (body of Christ) is not located on earth but mount Zion the city of the living God Where the chief corner stone has been laid, and it is there where it is being built by Gods Spirit.

Eph 2:20 Together, we are his house, built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. And the cornerstone is Christ Jesus himself.
Eph 2:21 We are carefully joined together in him, becoming a holy temple for the Lord.


Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,

 

[Waggles]

The Church is alive

which church? - body of called out ones ...

 

[Hekuran]

No
being with the wrong people corrupts faith and doctrine -
Rev 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues;"
We are to separate ourselves and to be holy - touch not the unclean thing.
Pray to Jesus for his direction and his guidance to what pleases the God of our salvation.
I did and Jesus sent people to me and they witnessed to me.
I am now amongst people who are good for upholding and living sound doctrine (they take all of the word of God seriously).
And it shows in our testimonies and our blessings.
James 1:21 Therefore put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

None of the Bible authors ever encourage any believer to leave a church community. And there were some pretty disfunctional fellowships in the 1st century.

The revelation passage is about Babylon. It is not talking about church fellowships.

 

[Waggles]

The revelation passage is about Babylon. It is not talking about church fellowships.

No
these verses are exactly about false Christianity - about Mystery Babylon - that which is counterfeit tainted with the traditions that spiritually emanate from
the original Babylon but persist today.
There are also many warnings in the NT about false doctrines and false disciples, and for the saints to discern such and to prove all things.

2John 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting,
11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

 

[Waggles]

Does the U.S.A. have a serious problem with religion?
Yes right from the beginning. From witches in Salem to the Mormons to the Jehovah Witnesses to woke doctrines.
America turned Christianity into tax free money making venture.
Even the true Pentecostal gospel of the NT became musical entertainment, and all manner of unscriptural practices.

https://www.youtube.com/@FightForTruthMedia/videos

 

[Hekuran]

No
these verses are exactly about false Christianity - about Mystery Babylon - that which is counterfeit tainted with the traditions that spiritually emanate from
the original Babylon but persist today.
There are also many warnings in the NT about false doctrines and false disciples, and for the saints to discern such and to prove all things.

2John 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting,
11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

Turn back one page and read Revelation 17. It's a lurid descripyion of the prostitute Babylon. In the final verse shevis identified as the city that rules over the kings of the earth (Rome).

Again, the new testament never consels anyone to leave a church fellowship. Never.

 

[Andyindauk]

I live here in the US, and I've read many of the same messages. It is sad to see people insult the body of Christ this way.

There are certainly some good churches here. I am a member of one such church right now. I consider most of the churches I have been part of to be good churches.

But I have to admit, there are a lot of bad churches here also, I would even say the majority so it seems.

It's funny, if someone eats a bad hamburger or a bad pizza, do they quit eating pizza and hamburgers? No, they may go somewhere else to get them, but they keep coming back for more.
However if a church does something wrong, or offends you in any way... that's it. Game over, I'm never going back to church ever again.... "they hurt my little feelings".

You can find a good church if you really want to. They haven't all disappeared, at least not yet.

A friend of mine, years ago ( he has passed away now ) wanted to quit drinking. But he would never quit going to bars and hanging around his drinking buddies. He died of liver disease.
Some keep going to same churches, and same denominations that support things like gay clergy, homosexual marriage, and saying there are multiple ways to God.... then they complain about the church and
wonder why nothing ever changes.

Maybe it's time for a change of scenery.

In the UK we're plagued, not so much by bad churches, more Laodicean churches that are neither hot nor cold, in particular but not exclusively, high church Anglicans. I'm not decrying high church but it's really not my bag. Typically the demographic of the pretty sparse congregation is approaching 80. The sermon is either non-existent or pretty Christless and generally follows a well worn tradition of liturgy, bells and smells. But that said, if that were the only church in town, I'd go there. You've more chance of challenging and changing if you're a member than if you were driving past tutting or wringing your hands in righteous indignation. If this is your church, pray for it, try and find like minded members, come together and start a prayer meeting and / or a Bible study.

What better example is there than Jesus who regularly attended and worshipped at the Temple but when He saw something He didn't like, He did something about it. Matthew 21:12-17.

It's hard to read born again Christians urging brothers and sisters to stay away from church, depriving them of fellowship, friendship and brotherly love, to name but a few blessings you can get, even from a 'rubbish church'. I wonder where the inspiration for that advice comes from?

 

[Waggles]

It's hard to read born again Christians urging brothers and sisters to stay away from church,

You are being disingenuous here -
People are not being urged to abandon or to stay away from church, rather people are witnessed to and encouraged to seek a better way that is
much more compliant with the word of God and to seek what God instructs us to do.
John 4:10 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.”
13 Jesus said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again,
14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.
24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

God sets the rules and gives the commandments as to what the gospel of salvation is - one gospel. one faith, one doctrine, one baptism, one way.
It is imperative for people who worship and fellowship in churches that preach another gospel to come out of this and to seek how to worship God the father in spirit and in truth.

 

[Waggles]

Again, the new testament never consels anyone to leave a church fellowship. Never.

That is because the church of the NT was the real thing and there were no other alternatives.
One gospel, one doctrine, one baptism, one Pentecostal elect.
No Lutherans, no Orthodox or Roman Catholics, just Pentecostal gospel and doctrine.
But people were put out of the church for wrongdoing, and also for preaching false doctrines.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith
that was once for all delivered to the saints.

 

[Hekuran]

That is because the church of the NT was the real thing and there were no other alternatives.
One gospel, one doctrine, one baptism, one Pentecostal elect.
No Lutherans, no Orthodox or Roman Catholics, just Pentecostal gospel and doctrine.
But people were put out of the church for wrongdoing, and also for preaching false doctrines.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith
that was once for all delivered to the saints.

Some of the early churches were an appalling mess. Writing to the church in Corinth, Paul had to address issues of sexual misbehaviour, squabbles over spiritual authority, members of the fellowship taking lawsuits against each other and abusecof spiritaul gifts.

Despite all that, he never advises anyone to leave - rather stay together and sort the problems out.

 

[Waggles]

Despite all that, he never advises anyone to leave - rather stay together and sort the problems out.

No again you are incorrect

1Corinthians 5:4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?
7 Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
8 Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people -
10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard,
or swindler - not even to eat with such a one.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
1Co 5:13 God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

Romans 16:17 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.
18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I've read a number of posts, mostly from a number of brothers 'n sisters across the pond, decrying all churches in America and so justifying their absence. Are all churches in the USA so rubbish that they're not worth getting up for on a Sunday morning? Do any American TJ'ers have a positive experience in a church?

Of course. While I'm not wild about the "Musical style" (contemporary soft rock) that the "Worship team" uses, "Crossroads of Life Assembly of God" in DeSoto Texas is an excellent operation that we've attended for the last 6 years, or so. Solid ministry, good teaching, and an excellent facility.

 

[Bill]

I've read a number of posts, mostly from a number of brothers 'n sisters across the pond, decrying all churches in America and so justifying their absence. Are all churches in the USA so rubbish that they're not worth getting up for on a Sunday morning? Do any American TJ'ers have a positive experience in a church?

Let's have a look at what the Bible says about rubbish churches.

Now Peter and John went up together to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour. Acts 3:1 NKJV.

Peter and John were regular worshippers at the Temple, they even went to the midweek prayer meeting. Remember, in this Temple, they didn't even believe in Jesus, and yet Peter and John were drawn to it. Why? What was it about the Temple that these two felt like they had to go?

There's 4 motives to going to church, corporate worship, learning, giving and fellowship. Which of these 4 boxes did the Temple tick for these two disciples?

Read the rest of the chapter and you'll see that the Holy Spirit prompts them to give a miraculous healing to a man in his forties, born with deformed feet, unable to walk. This miracle then forms the backdrop to Peter's second sermon.

Peter's sermon goes down really well with the gathered audience, and thousands came to know Jesus as a result of it Acts 4:4. Had Peter and John stayed away, that miracle, Peter's sermon and all those conversions wouldn't have happened. However you can read in the rest of chapter 4 that Peter's sermon didn't go down so well with the Temple hierarchy who took these events as a challenge to their authority and so the three of them spent the night in the cells.

Revelation 3:1-6 Sardis, the dead church. The only good thing about that church is the few who are not like the rest of them. To the general body of the members, Jesus tells them to hold fast and repent but to the few pleasing members Jesus doesn't say quit and stay at home, rather He tells them: 'You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.' Revelation 3:4‭-5 NKJV

And then there's the writer of the Hebrews instruction: And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. Hebrews 10:24‭-25 NKJV. TJ is a forum, it's not a church, you're pretty limited in here to stir up love and good works which is what identifies the Church.

In 1 Corinthians 5:6-8 Paul tells a church with serious problems - Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

So instead of dismissing churches as being not good enough for you, wouldn't it be better to join it and be that unleavened bread of sincerity and truth?

May God bless you for your faithfulness and perseverance.

You missed one . The Temple is the House of God

 

[Bill]

Some of the early churches were an appalling mess. Writing to the church in Corinth, Paul had to address issues of sexual misbehaviour, squabbles over spiritual authority, members of the fellowship taking lawsuits against each other and abusecof spiritaul gifts.

Despite all that, he never advises anyone to leave - rather stay together and sort the problems out.

Yes even in Galatians you'll read in chapter 5 where Paul is telling them if they don't straighten out and continue with sinning that they would not be able to make it to heaven.

 

[Hekuran]

No again you are incorrect

1Corinthians 5:4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?
7 Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
8 Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people -
10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard,
or swindler - not even to eat with such a one.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
1Co 5:13 God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

Romans 16:17 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.
18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.

Thats about expelling a member from the fellowship, not about a faithful person dissociating from church. My point stands.