Saved or Self-Deceived, Part 1

[Dave M]

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy or preach in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts upon them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house upon the rock. And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew and burst against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded upon the rock. And everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act upon them, will be alike a foolish man who built his house upon the sand. And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew and burst against that house; and it fell – and great was its fall.”

 

[Sue D.]

Good question -- are Protestants always Christians -- or are Evangelicals always Christians. And pastors who are not Christian

The narrow gate and the wide gate.

Lots of false prophets / teachers.

People who hang around Christ, but.......deceived about their own spiritual condition. Very religious people. But no relationship with God through Christ.

Superficial understanding of the Gospel. Emotionalized.

Just praying a prayer , etc.

'This' just froze half-way through, too. it just started up again.

How can a person Help a person who is deceived.

Having an academic interest in theology , but not personal acceptance or worship

Always stuck on one view of Scripture

God being a means to their own ends.

WoW -- very thought-provoking.

Thanks for sharing

 

[Dave M]

nice summary, Sue.

 

[Enxu]

Well, thanks for the warning and I do believe God will Himself convict me of sin if I am guilty.

I could make the same judgments and say the same things about people who don’t agree with me but I did not say anything beyond that they are deceived by false doctrines. Being deceived can happen to any believer and it happened to early church believers who were even directly taught by apostles.

Yet I refuse to say those same group of people who disagree with me are false teachers and prophets, unsaved and worthy of the judgment quoted in post #1. Why? I never even met them and certainly don’t know the fruits of their lives. False prophets and teachers are judged by the fruits, that’s what Jesus said.

Besides I never considered myself as either a prophetess or a teacher.

Sadly I am not shown the same love and unjudgmental attitude I showed towards others. Just because I refuse to submit to man taught doctrines I am suddenly a public enemy of the faith. I mean they don’t even pray that I be shown the truth like I did for them in secret. There is no love or concern for me at all. They are happy to judge and reject me as unsaved based on doctrinal conflicts but they don’t truly care about me as a person. Very telling of their fruits isn’t it?

It reminded me of how the Roman Catholic Church treated those who opposed their doctrines. It often ended in bloody persecution and murder of the opposers. The RCC was and still is only concerned about defending their own man taught doctrines and authority, and have no true concerns for the souls of others. They do not love their brethren and would even go as far as to kill them to defend doctrines. Indeed, for such groups of people Jesus will indeed reject them no matter how much miracles or work they have done in His name.

Judge for yourselves under what fruit you posted this against me. Am I now your enemy now even when I haven’t done or said anything against you people personally?

 

[Sue D.]

We're trying to share with you in a most loving way possible what Scriptural truths are.

You've brought the RCC group into the 'conversation' --Why? You're comparing this Forums' beliefs -- which you see as erroneus / at least in reference to the Holy Spirit which does include the Fact that Jesus Christ was indeed deity while here on earth-- with erroneous teachings of the RCC? At least that's what I'm understanding. And I've just shared a bit about that with you in 'conversation' area.

There are some Bible doctrines that Are of major importance. The virgin birth of Jesus Christ is one of them. That Jesus -- while here on earth was indeed "God in the flesh".

Well -- All Bible teaching / theology / is of major importance or God would not have given us His Word to read, accept, follow.

 

[Dave M]

Well, thanks for the warning and I do believe God will Himself convict me of sin if I am guilty.

I could make the same judgments and say the same things about people who don’t agree with me but I did not say anything beyond that they are deceived by false doctrines. Being deceived can happen to any believer and it happened to early church believers who were even directly taught by apostles.

Yet I refuse to say those same group of people who disagree with me are false teachers and prophets, unsaved and worthy of the judgment quoted in post #1. Why? I never even met them and certainly don’t know the fruits of their lives. False prophets and teachers are judged by the fruits, that’s what Jesus said.

Besides I never considered myself as either a prophetess or a teacher.

Sadly I am not shown the same love and unjudgmental attitude I showed towards others. Just because I refuse to submit to man taught doctrines I am suddenly a public enemy of the faith. I mean they don’t even pray that I be shown the truth like I did for them in secret. There is no love or concern for me at all. They are happy to judge and reject me as unsaved based on doctrinal conflicts but they don’t truly care about me as a person. Very telling of their fruits isn’t it?

It reminded me of how the Roman Catholic Church treated those who opposed their doctrines. It often ended in bloody persecution and murder of the opposers. The RCC was and still is only concerned about defending their own man taught doctrines and authority, and have no true concerns for the souls of others. They do not love their brethren and would even go as far as to kill them to defend doctrines. Indeed, for such groups of people Jesus will indeed reject them no matter how much miracles or work they have done in His name.

Judge for yourselves under what fruit you posted this against me. Am I now your enemy now even when I haven’t done or said anything against you people personally?

sounds to me you thought the guy was speaking directly to you,,, perhaps I am mistaken.

 

[Enxu]

We're trying to share with you in a most loving way possible what Scriptural truths are.

You've brought the RCC group into the 'conversation' --Why? You're comparing this Forums' beliefs -- which you see as erroneus / at least in reference to the Holy Spirit which does include the Fact that Jesus Christ was indeed deity while here on earth-- with erroneous teachings of the RCC? At least that's what I'm understanding. And I've just shared a bit about that with you in 'conversation' area.

There are some Bible doctrines that Are of major importance. The virgin birth of Jesus Christ is one of them. That Jesus -- while here on earth was indeed "God in the flesh".

Well -- All Bible teaching / theology / is of major importance or God would not have given us His Word to read, accept, follow.

Posting things like this, indirectly questioning other people’s salvation, doesn’t look at all loving. I know this was directed at me even though I was not mentioned. I have yet to do anything like this to anyone no matter how heated the debate is.

This is nth time I’ve repeated myself. I never said Jesus was never deity. Don’t know why you guys keep making a point about that. And everything I’ve said I’ve backed up with actual Scriptures or evidence. Who among you guys have proven me wrong?

I brought up RCC because I’m reminding you guys that love of brethren is the fruit that should be among believers. I don’t see that love in posts like this.

Why do you suppose I spend days upon days putting my point across? I don’t make a single cent of money from my posts and stand to gain absolutely nothing from sharing what I’ve shared, so why do I still do it? Because I love people enough not to want them to be deceived. Yet what did I get? Rejection and judgment about my salvation. I’ve received the same treatment over and over by people who claim to be Christians. They don’t love me and never treated me like a sister in the first place.

A lot of Scriptures were shared with me, and I’ve looked at them all, addressing them as needed. Yet the Scriptures I shared were never addressed properly. Not one of you have told me why all of Jesus’ apostles called Him Man in the Gospel and not God-Man. It was brushed aside as unexplainable perhaps, but I was never proven wrong. Yet I am rejected and treated like a false believer. How is that love of brethren hmm?

 

[Sue D.]

Jesus Christ is referred to as Master and Teacher in the Gospels and He is referred to as "Lord" in Matthew 8. Jesus Christ was Teacher, Master to His disciples.

And the passage about Jesus Christ being the mediator between God and man -- the Man Christ Jesus. Because He was Here in the form of a man when He died on the cross. And in the form of a man after He rose from the dead and ascended back up to heaven. He was Here, visible. As a Man/ man. A Man who was Also deity.

In Matthew 8: 28 the account of the two demon-possessed men coming out of the tombs , exceedingly fierce -- vs 29 they cried out "What have we to do with You, Jesus, You, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"

Apparently You feel that the apostles of Jesus should refer to Him as God- Man and not Man. Maybe it wasn't seen as being important. Not especially unexplainable.

No one is really here to prove you Wrong.

some of us Have been trying to show you Biblically where your concepts Of Scripture need adjusting. There's definitely a spiritual tug-of-war taking place.

You seem to be addressing all the Scriptures being shared With you -- from the perspective of Your perspective being the Right one and most of us being deceived because we don't agree with you. Your 'mission' apparently is to 'set Us right.' / correct Our perspective to agree with Your's.

No one is being paid to be on here. Well -- I'm definitely not.

Maybe it's because you're denying the very concept that Does make everyone's salvation Possible. And when you Do that -- it makes a person Wonder.

"I never said that Jesus was never deity" You Did / Have said that He was deity Before and After His time here on earth. But that He was plainly just man while here. You've stated that the Holy Spirit does not exist. When, in fact, it is Because of the Holy Spirit that......... You call it the Spirit of God. The power of the Most High came upon Mary and she conceived. What is wrong with calling 'it' the Holy Spirit -- because that's what 'it' Is. The Holy Spirit.

Why deny the existence of the Holy Spirit. And you bring in that supposedly the RCC created the trinity and , therefore, it's wrong? God's Word 'created' the trinity / Godhead.

Part of the video by John MacArthur was saying that it's probably more loving, caring To question a person's salvation. That 'we' assume a lot of things about people going/ being in a church. How many people are being allowed to be misled about their personal salvation simply because no one wants to be the potentially 'bad' guy. No one wants to be offensive. But people Need to be talking / sharing about their personal time of having accepted Christ because there Are lots of people who 'assume' their own salvation because of 'whatever'.

When I was a young teenager -- Christian parents -- in church all the time. Great pastor/ teacher and good sunday School teachers. Church camps, choirs. Lots of good activities for all of us. A huge church. But after a while - as a result of various circumstances -- wasn't really sure Of my personal salvation. So I made sure, one evening , talked to God about all of it and thanked Him for my salvation. All of a sudden it was in my Heart and not just in my Head. There was definitely a New inner peace coming from the Holy Spirit's Now indwelling my heart.

 

[Enxu]

Jesus Christ is referred to as Master and Teacher in the Gospels and He is referred to as "Lord" in Matthew 8. Jesus Christ was Teacher, Master to His disciples.

And the passage about Jesus Christ being the mediator between God and man -- the Man Christ Jesus. Because He was Here in the form of a man when He died on the cross. And in the form of a man after He rose from the dead and ascended back up to heaven. He was Here, visible. As a Man/ man. A Man who was Also deity.

In Matthew 8: 28 the account of the two demon-possessed men coming out of the tombs , exceedingly fierce -- vs 29 they cried out "What have we to do with You, Jesus, You, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"

Apparently You feel that the apostles of Jesus should refer to Him as God- Man and not Man. Maybe it wasn't seen as being important. Not especially unexplainable.

No one is really here to prove you Wrong.

some of us Have been trying to show you Biblically where your concepts Of Scripture need adjusting. There's definitely a spiritual tug-of-war taking place.

You seem to be addressing all the Scriptures being shared With you -- from the perspective of Your perspective being the Right one and most of us being deceived because we don't agree with you. Your 'mission' apparently is to 'set Us right.' / correct Our perspective to agree with Your's.

No one is being paid to be on here. Well -- I'm definitely not.

Maybe it's because you're denying the very concept that Does make everyone's salvation Possible. And when you Do that -- it makes a person Wonder.

"I never said that Jesus was never deity" You Did / Have said that He was deity Before and After His time here on earth. But that He was plainly just man while here. You've stated that the Holy Spirit does not exist. When, in fact, it is Because of the Holy Spirit that......... You call it the Spirit of God. The power of the Most High came upon Mary and she conceived. What is wrong with calling 'it' the Holy Spirit -- because that's what 'it' Is. The Holy Spirit.

Why deny the existence of the Holy Spirit. And you bring in that supposedly the RCC created the trinity and , therefore, it's wrong? God's Word 'created' the trinity / Godhead.

Part of the video by John MacArthur was saying that it's probably more loving, caring To question a person's salvation. That 'we' assume a lot of things about people going/ being in a church. How many people are being allowed to be misled about their personal salvation simply because no one wants to be the potentially 'bad' guy. No one wants to be offensive. But people Need to be talking / sharing about their personal time of having accepted Christ because there Are lots of people who 'assume' their own salvation because of 'whatever'.

When I was a young teenager -- Christian parents -- in church all the time. Great pastor/ teacher and good sunday School teachers. Church camps, choirs. Lots of good activities for all of us. A huge church. But after a while - as a result of various circumstances -- wasn't really sure Of my personal salvation. So I made sure, one evening , talked to God about all of it and thanked Him for my salvation. All of a sudden it was in my Heart and not just in my Head. There was definitely a New inner peace coming from the Holy Spirit's Now indwelling my heart.

It is not my purpose to argue about Scriptures here again like in my own thread so I won’t touch on them. But I will address the other points you’ve made.

“Apparently You feel that the apostles of Jesus should refer to Him as God- Man and not Man. Maybe it wasn't seen as being important. Not especially unexplainable.”

They must if Jesus is indeed God-Man or else they teach falsehood about Him. So either they are teaching falsehood or the belief about Him being God-Man is wrong. There are no alternative explanations. You say it may not be seen as important so why did you guys turn it into an important point?

You seem to be addressing all the Scriptures being shared With you -- from the perspective of Your perspective being the Right one and most of us being deceived because we don't agree with you. Your 'mission' apparently is to 'set Us right.' / correct Our perspective to agree with Your's.

I am addressing things from my perspective as me being right. And who here isn’t doing the same? I am not on a mission per se, rather sharing what I’ve learned so people can examine things for themselves. Sadly people who discuss with me didn’t really examine things I’ve mentioned but instead chose only to bring in their perspectives, which is what you say I’m doing. So why talk about what I’ve been doing when the same thing is being done from your side as well?

Part of the video by John MacArthur was saying that it's probably more loving, caring To question a person's salvation.

Sure, it can be a loving act to put people on their toes. Yet none of you know how I constantly judge myself already. Posting on a public forum alluding to how someone may not be saved, yet never praying for them or talking to them in private is not putting people on their toes, its an act of ostracisation and a sign of pride. Like I said earlier, being deceived about a doctrine is not enough to say a person is not saved in the first place. It is a dangerous place to be in, but not evidence that a person is not born again. None of you know the fruit of my life just like I don’t know the fruit of your lives. I don’t think it is right to judge a person as saved or unsaved solely based on doctrine.

Maybe it's because you're denying the very concept that Does make everyone's salvation Possible. And when you Do that -- it makes a person Wonder.

What did the Bible say about salvation? One needs to believe in Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross. One who denies Jesus Christ as Messiah is condemned already. There is no mention of the Holy Spirit as part of that belief system. So there is no basis to wonder about my salvation in the first place.

 

[Enxu]

That said I’m not mentioning the above to hold anything against anyone, there is no need to be all defensive about it. God knows and searches the hearts and no one is above reproach.

 

[Sue D.]

A question for you Enxu -- Why is it that Jesus Christ Can be our Savior?

 

[Sue D.]

You said that you don't think it's right to judge a person as saved or unsaved solely based on doctrine.

Well --it's Bible doctrine that gives us God's way for us to Have salvation. And it's our personal heart's acceptance that matters.

Okay -- again -- Why is it that Jesus Christ Can be our Savior?

 

[Enxu]

A question for you Enxu -- Why is it that Jesus Christ Can be our Savior?

Answer:

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.

1 Corinthians 15:21
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:45 So it is written, The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

 

[Sue D.]

Acts 2:36 -- through what means did God make this Jesus, both Lord and Messiah -- Why did His crucifixion make the difference.

 

[Enxu]

Acts 2:36 -- through what means did God make this Jesus, both Lord and Messiah

Isaiah 61:1-2
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is on Me, because the LORD has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives and release from darkness to the prisoners, to proclaim the year of the LORD’s favor

Luke 4:16-21
Then Jesus came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. As was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath. And when He stood up to read, the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. Unrolling it, He found the place where it was written: “The Spirit of the Lord is on Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to release the oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.” Then He rolled up the scroll, returned it to the attendant, and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fixed on Him, and He began by saying, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

Why did His crucifixion make the difference.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Galatians 3:13-14
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.” He redeemed us in order that the blessing promised to Abraham would come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Romans 8:3-4
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Romans 10:8-9
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[Sue D.]

Yes, -- Romans 8:3-4 "God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin." In the likeness of sinful man. Mankind Is sinful. God's own Son is Not sinful.

 

[Enxu]

Yes, -- Romans 8:3-4 "God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin." In the likeness of sinful man. Mankind Is sinful. God's own Son is Not sinful.

Yes, Jesus is the only Sinless Man, the perfect Lamb of God. I never said otherwise.

 

[Dave M]

great video

 

[PloughBoy]

Good question -- are Protestants always Christians -- or are Evangelicals always Christians. And pastors who are not Christian

The narrow gate and the wide gate.

Lots of false prophets / teachers.

People who hang around Christ, but.......deceived about their own spiritual condition. Very religious people. But no relationship with God through Christ.

Superficial understanding of the Gospel. Emotionalized.

Just praying a prayer , etc.

'This' just froze half-way through, too. it just started up again.

How can a person Help a person who is deceived.

Having an academic interest in theology , but not personal acceptance or worship

Always stuck on one view of Scripture

God being a means to their own ends.

WoW -- very thought-provoking.

Thanks for sharing

Sue, that is what we call a “Nominal Christian”. You just describe one.