tulsa 2011
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Six Kingdoms of Man Before and After the Cross
In Daniel 2: 31-44 the four successive kingdoms before the Cross - Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome - have a parallel after the Cross. The entire six kingdoms after the Cross are the Holy Roman Empire, the Catholic Spanish empire, the British empire, the Soviet Union, or Russian empire, the Nazi German empire and the fourth beast, "dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly" in Daniel 7: 7.
Daniel 7: 4-7 presents only four of the six post-Cross kingdoms, the lion (first with eagle's wings), the bear, the leopard and the fourth beast who is dreadfuly and very powerful. These are the British, Russian, or Soviet Union, Nazi Germany and the American empires, where in Revelation 13: 2 the fourth empire is seen to have the traits of the three previous empires.
In Revelation 13: 2 the first beast is said to be like the leopard, bear and lion, that is, the first beast has traits of these three empires of Daniel 7: 4-7. And do not forget the little horn of Daniel 7: 8, which is also a kingdom. The Little Horn can be seen as the head of the first beast of Revelation 13: 3 whose deadly wound was healed. The first beast of Revelation 13, which has traits of the lion, bear and leopard kingdoms, is allied with the Little Horn or the head of the beast whose deadly wound was healed.
The dreadful, terrible and exceedingly strong fourth beast kingdom of Daniel 7: 7 is the sixth kingdom after the Cross.
But this interpretation of Daniel 7: 4-7, Revelation 13: 1-3 and Revelation 17: 1-11 does not agree with church doctrines from the historicist view of Bible prophecy, dispensationalism, Seventh Day Adventism, Messianic Judaism, Hebrew Roots, and Christian Identity theology involving the lost tribes.
One reason dispensationalism claims that the four beast kingdoms in Daniel 7: 4-7 are the same kingdoms as the four in Daniel 2: 31-40 - Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome - is because of its insistence that the toes of Daniel 2: 41-42 are ten toes representing ten kings. Revelation 17: 12 does mention ten kings.
But the metaphor in Daniel 2: 41-42 is about the fourth kingdom, which is Rome. "And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay." Daniel 2: 41
The fourth kingdom - Rome - is represented as the legs of iron and feet partly of iron and partly of clay of the image in Nebuchadnezzar's dream. The iron is the rule of Rome by force, and in Daniel 2: 41 the potter's clay refers to Jeremiah 18: 1-6, the parable of the potter, where God the potter remakes Israel into a new pot God considers good, after having made it before as a marred pot (Jeremiah 18: 4).
The dispensationalists can't go there because the prophecies of II Kings 21: 13, Isaiah 29: 16 and Jeremiah 18: 1-6 - that God was to transform Old Covenant physical Israel into a spiritual house (I Peter 2: 5) - are rejected by dispensationalism. These prophecies and their fulfillment in Romans 11: 5 contradict the teaching of dispensationalism that Old Covenant Israel now remains a people of God as the chosen people, by their physical genetics, alongside a different entity, the church. In teaching that God has two different peoples, dispensationalism clearly contradicts John 10:16, there shall be one fold, and Romans 12; 5, that the body of Christ, being many, is one united body, not two. Here is where dispensationalism clearly teaches another Gospel and another Jesus, because Jesus himself is the truth, the way and the life (John 14: 6).
Rome as the fourth kingdom of Daniel 2 is seen as a mix of authoritarian man made rule and the potter's clay, which is Israel reborn as a spiritual house in Jesus Christ (John 3: 1-7). The Christians are the clay of the feet in the dream image.
It makes no sense for Daniel to repeat the same kingdoms in Daniel 7, as those of Daniel 2, using different metaphors for each kingdom.
The kingdoms of Daniel 7 have to be different kingdoms than Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome, although there are some parallels between each of the four kingdoms. The lion kingdom, first with eagle's wings, which was given the heart of man (Daniel 7: 4), as the British empire, has some traits similar to those of ancient Babylon. The empire of Alexander of Greece has some characteristics like those of Nazi Germany, and the U.S. has some traits of the Roman empire, such as beginning as democracies. Except that the U.S. began with a republican form of government, derived from the work of John Locke, which was a secularized version of the Reformation theology of John Knox and Samuel Rutherford of the Reformation in Scotland. The theology of Knox and Rutherford was based on the Bible.
Clarence Larkin - Dispensational Truth - Chapter 10 - The Gentiles
Since this is from the Christian Forum Rapture Forums, it has to be dispensationalist.
Here is the first statement of this post that I want to look at:
"But the "Colossus" grows weaker and weaker until the feet and toes become a mixture of Iron and Clay. In other words the government degenerates from an Absolute Monarchy to an Autocratic Democracy, a form of government in which the people largely have the say."
The "colossus" is the dream image of King Nebuchadnezzar. To this dispensationalist, the mixture of iron and potter's clay of Daniel 2: 41-42 represent the degeneration of the kingdoms of man - starting with Babylon, then Persia, Greece and finally, Rome. The potter's clay for Rome cannot represent the Christians in the Roman Empire for a dispensationalist.
The writer goes on to say "The "Stone" which smites the "Colossus" must be interpreted as Christ who is called a "Stone" in Scripture. "Whosoever shall fall on this stone (Christ) shall be broken (softened by repentance), but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder." Matt. 21:44. This is exactly what the prophet foretells of the smiting of the "Colossus." "
What he is interpreting is Daniel 2: 44-45, "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure."
So far the dispensationlist writer is right, the stone represents Christ.
But then he says this; "As the four Kingdoms typified by the "Colossus" are literal Kingdoms, it follows that the "Stone Kingdom" must be a literal Kingdom, for it takes the place of the Kingdoms that are destroyed, and conquers the whole earth. The "Stone Kingdom" then is the "Millennial Kingdom of Christ" and the "Colossus, " or the "Times of the Gentiles" typified by it, cannot come to an end until the "revelation of Christ" at His Second Coming."
But the New Testament clearly says the Kingdom of God is spiritual (Luke 17: 20-21, John 3: 1-7). "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." John 18: 36
The writer interprets Danial 7: 4-7 in saying "Out of the sea four "Great Beasts" came up in succession. We have no difficulty in identifying these "Four Beasts" with the "Four Kingdoms" represented by the "Colossus." "The first was like a Lion and had Eagle's Wings, " and as the Prophet watched it, he saw it "lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon its feet as a Man, and a Man's Heart was given to it. Dan. 7:4. We have only to visit the British Museum, London, and examine the colossal stone lions with the "wings of an eagle" and the "head of a man, " disinterred from the ruins of Babylon and Assyria by Sir Henry Layard between the years 1840 and 1850 A. D., to see that the "First Beast" of Daniel's vision represented the First World Kingdom-Babylon, and its King Nebuchadnezzar.
The peculiarity of the "First Beast" was that it had "Eagle's Wings." This combination of the lion, the "King of Beasts, " and the eagle, the "King of Birds, " corresponded to the Royalty of the "Head of Gold" of the Colossus, and typified the "Eagle-like" swiftness of the armies of Nebuchadnezzar. The "Plucking of the Wings" doubtless referred to the "Beastly Insanity" of Nebuchadnezzar (Dan. 4:20-22), and the "lifting up, " and causing to stand upon its feet "as a man" to his restoration to sanity.
The Second Beast was "like to a Bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had Three Ribs in the mouth of it, between the teeth of it; and they said thus unto it, Arise, Devour Much Flesh." Dan. 7:5. The bear is the strongest beast after the lion and is distinguished for its voracity, but it has none of the agility and majesty of the lion, is awkward in its movements, and effects its purpose with comparative slowness, and by brute force and sheer strength. These were the characteristics of the Medo-Persian Empire."
He goes on to say "The Third Beast was "like a Leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the Beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it." Dan. 7:6. The leopard is the most agile and graceful of creatures; but its speed is here still further assisted by "wings." Slight in its frame, but strong, swift and fierce, its characteristics render it a fitting symbol of the rapid conquests of the Greeks under Alexander the Great, who, followed by small but well-equipped and splendidly brave armies, moved with great celerity and in about 10 years overthrew the unwieldy forces of Persia, and subdued the whole civilized world."
Finally, for the fourth beast of Daniel 7: 7 he says " The Fourth Beast was unlike any beast that Daniel had ever seen or heard about, it was "dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly, and it had great IRON TEETH. It devoured and brake in pieces, and tamped the residue (the other Beasts) with the feet of it; and it was diverse from all the Beasts that were before it and it had "Ten Horns."
The fact that the Fourth Beast had "Iron Teeth, " and that there are "Ten Horns" on its head, the "iron" corresponding to the "Iron Limbs" and the "ten horns" to the "Ten Toes" of the Colossus, would cause Daniel to see that the Fourth Beast represented the Fourth World Kingdom. "
But here is what Daniel 7: 7 actually says "After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns."
And here is what Daniel 2: 41-42 actually says "And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken."
There are no ten toes in Daniel 2: 41-42, and even if it did say that, toes do not necessarily equal horns, since horns in scripture represent powers.
The dispensationalist writer does not explain why he says "We have no difficulty in identifying these "Four Beasts" with the "Four Kingdoms" represented by the "Colossus." Again, the "Colossus" is the dream image in the dream of King Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 2: 31-45.
In Daniel 2: 31-44 the four successive kingdoms before the Cross - Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome - have a parallel after the Cross. The entire six kingdoms after the Cross are the Holy Roman Empire, the Catholic Spanish empire, the British empire, the Soviet Union, or Russian empire, the Nazi German empire and the fourth beast, "dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly" in Daniel 7: 7.
Daniel 7: 4-7 presents only four of the six post-Cross kingdoms, the lion (first with eagle's wings), the bear, the leopard and the fourth beast who is dreadfuly and very powerful. These are the British, Russian, or Soviet Union, Nazi Germany and the American empires, where in Revelation 13: 2 the fourth empire is seen to have the traits of the three previous empires.
In Revelation 13: 2 the first beast is said to be like the leopard, bear and lion, that is, the first beast has traits of these three empires of Daniel 7: 4-7. And do not forget the little horn of Daniel 7: 8, which is also a kingdom. The Little Horn can be seen as the head of the first beast of Revelation 13: 3 whose deadly wound was healed. The first beast of Revelation 13, which has traits of the lion, bear and leopard kingdoms, is allied with the Little Horn or the head of the beast whose deadly wound was healed.
The dreadful, terrible and exceedingly strong fourth beast kingdom of Daniel 7: 7 is the sixth kingdom after the Cross.
But this interpretation of Daniel 7: 4-7, Revelation 13: 1-3 and Revelation 17: 1-11 does not agree with church doctrines from the historicist view of Bible prophecy, dispensationalism, Seventh Day Adventism, Messianic Judaism, Hebrew Roots, and Christian Identity theology involving the lost tribes.
One reason dispensationalism claims that the four beast kingdoms in Daniel 7: 4-7 are the same kingdoms as the four in Daniel 2: 31-40 - Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome - is because of its insistence that the toes of Daniel 2: 41-42 are ten toes representing ten kings. Revelation 17: 12 does mention ten kings.
But the metaphor in Daniel 2: 41-42 is about the fourth kingdom, which is Rome. "And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay." Daniel 2: 41
The fourth kingdom - Rome - is represented as the legs of iron and feet partly of iron and partly of clay of the image in Nebuchadnezzar's dream. The iron is the rule of Rome by force, and in Daniel 2: 41 the potter's clay refers to Jeremiah 18: 1-6, the parable of the potter, where God the potter remakes Israel into a new pot God considers good, after having made it before as a marred pot (Jeremiah 18: 4).
The dispensationalists can't go there because the prophecies of II Kings 21: 13, Isaiah 29: 16 and Jeremiah 18: 1-6 - that God was to transform Old Covenant physical Israel into a spiritual house (I Peter 2: 5) - are rejected by dispensationalism. These prophecies and their fulfillment in Romans 11: 5 contradict the teaching of dispensationalism that Old Covenant Israel now remains a people of God as the chosen people, by their physical genetics, alongside a different entity, the church. In teaching that God has two different peoples, dispensationalism clearly contradicts John 10:16, there shall be one fold, and Romans 12; 5, that the body of Christ, being many, is one united body, not two. Here is where dispensationalism clearly teaches another Gospel and another Jesus, because Jesus himself is the truth, the way and the life (John 14: 6).
Rome as the fourth kingdom of Daniel 2 is seen as a mix of authoritarian man made rule and the potter's clay, which is Israel reborn as a spiritual house in Jesus Christ (John 3: 1-7). The Christians are the clay of the feet in the dream image.
It makes no sense for Daniel to repeat the same kingdoms in Daniel 7, as those of Daniel 2, using different metaphors for each kingdom.
The kingdoms of Daniel 7 have to be different kingdoms than Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome, although there are some parallels between each of the four kingdoms. The lion kingdom, first with eagle's wings, which was given the heart of man (Daniel 7: 4), as the British empire, has some traits similar to those of ancient Babylon. The empire of Alexander of Greece has some characteristics like those of Nazi Germany, and the U.S. has some traits of the Roman empire, such as beginning as democracies. Except that the U.S. began with a republican form of government, derived from the work of John Locke, which was a secularized version of the Reformation theology of John Knox and Samuel Rutherford of the Reformation in Scotland. The theology of Knox and Rutherford was based on the Bible.
Clarence Larkin - Dispensational Truth - Chapter 10 - The Gentiles
Since this is from the Christian Forum Rapture Forums, it has to be dispensationalist.
Here is the first statement of this post that I want to look at:
"But the "Colossus" grows weaker and weaker until the feet and toes become a mixture of Iron and Clay. In other words the government degenerates from an Absolute Monarchy to an Autocratic Democracy, a form of government in which the people largely have the say."
The "colossus" is the dream image of King Nebuchadnezzar. To this dispensationalist, the mixture of iron and potter's clay of Daniel 2: 41-42 represent the degeneration of the kingdoms of man - starting with Babylon, then Persia, Greece and finally, Rome. The potter's clay for Rome cannot represent the Christians in the Roman Empire for a dispensationalist.
The writer goes on to say "The "Stone" which smites the "Colossus" must be interpreted as Christ who is called a "Stone" in Scripture. "Whosoever shall fall on this stone (Christ) shall be broken (softened by repentance), but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder." Matt. 21:44. This is exactly what the prophet foretells of the smiting of the "Colossus." "
What he is interpreting is Daniel 2: 44-45, "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure."
So far the dispensationlist writer is right, the stone represents Christ.
But then he says this; "As the four Kingdoms typified by the "Colossus" are literal Kingdoms, it follows that the "Stone Kingdom" must be a literal Kingdom, for it takes the place of the Kingdoms that are destroyed, and conquers the whole earth. The "Stone Kingdom" then is the "Millennial Kingdom of Christ" and the "Colossus, " or the "Times of the Gentiles" typified by it, cannot come to an end until the "revelation of Christ" at His Second Coming."
But the New Testament clearly says the Kingdom of God is spiritual (Luke 17: 20-21, John 3: 1-7). "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." John 18: 36
The writer interprets Danial 7: 4-7 in saying "Out of the sea four "Great Beasts" came up in succession. We have no difficulty in identifying these "Four Beasts" with the "Four Kingdoms" represented by the "Colossus." "The first was like a Lion and had Eagle's Wings, " and as the Prophet watched it, he saw it "lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon its feet as a Man, and a Man's Heart was given to it. Dan. 7:4. We have only to visit the British Museum, London, and examine the colossal stone lions with the "wings of an eagle" and the "head of a man, " disinterred from the ruins of Babylon and Assyria by Sir Henry Layard between the years 1840 and 1850 A. D., to see that the "First Beast" of Daniel's vision represented the First World Kingdom-Babylon, and its King Nebuchadnezzar.
The peculiarity of the "First Beast" was that it had "Eagle's Wings." This combination of the lion, the "King of Beasts, " and the eagle, the "King of Birds, " corresponded to the Royalty of the "Head of Gold" of the Colossus, and typified the "Eagle-like" swiftness of the armies of Nebuchadnezzar. The "Plucking of the Wings" doubtless referred to the "Beastly Insanity" of Nebuchadnezzar (Dan. 4:20-22), and the "lifting up, " and causing to stand upon its feet "as a man" to his restoration to sanity.
The Second Beast was "like to a Bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had Three Ribs in the mouth of it, between the teeth of it; and they said thus unto it, Arise, Devour Much Flesh." Dan. 7:5. The bear is the strongest beast after the lion and is distinguished for its voracity, but it has none of the agility and majesty of the lion, is awkward in its movements, and effects its purpose with comparative slowness, and by brute force and sheer strength. These were the characteristics of the Medo-Persian Empire."
He goes on to say "The Third Beast was "like a Leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the Beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it." Dan. 7:6. The leopard is the most agile and graceful of creatures; but its speed is here still further assisted by "wings." Slight in its frame, but strong, swift and fierce, its characteristics render it a fitting symbol of the rapid conquests of the Greeks under Alexander the Great, who, followed by small but well-equipped and splendidly brave armies, moved with great celerity and in about 10 years overthrew the unwieldy forces of Persia, and subdued the whole civilized world."
Finally, for the fourth beast of Daniel 7: 7 he says " The Fourth Beast was unlike any beast that Daniel had ever seen or heard about, it was "dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly, and it had great IRON TEETH. It devoured and brake in pieces, and tamped the residue (the other Beasts) with the feet of it; and it was diverse from all the Beasts that were before it and it had "Ten Horns."
The fact that the Fourth Beast had "Iron Teeth, " and that there are "Ten Horns" on its head, the "iron" corresponding to the "Iron Limbs" and the "ten horns" to the "Ten Toes" of the Colossus, would cause Daniel to see that the Fourth Beast represented the Fourth World Kingdom. "
But here is what Daniel 7: 7 actually says "After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns."
And here is what Daniel 2: 41-42 actually says "And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken."
There are no ten toes in Daniel 2: 41-42, and even if it did say that, toes do not necessarily equal horns, since horns in scripture represent powers.
The dispensationalist writer does not explain why he says "We have no difficulty in identifying these "Four Beasts" with the "Four Kingdoms" represented by the "Colossus." Again, the "Colossus" is the dream image in the dream of King Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 2: 31-45.
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